... an open-ended question...
One man one goal one mi-ission,
One heart one soul just one solution,
Objective-based gamemodes !
I suppose the major problem lies in a disproportionate ratio of HA/HX on one team. Really, here's the problem. Say a newish player (because older players aren't likely to quit this mod) is one of the last people on a team. Suddenly, he is surrounded by 3-4 HX. There is literally nothing that he can do to avoid dying to this, even if he or she is an extremely intelligent and skilled player. If he is surrounded by any number of melee or unmounted ranged, he can engage them and at least ATTEMPT to emerge the victor. This is impossible when fighting even a single HA or HX that is targeting that player, much less multiple HX/HA.
Against someone of higher level and skill that is, for example, a 2h soldier, the new player can at least visualize himself eventually beating them once he levels up and gains more combat experience. Against an HX, the new player can NEVER emerge victorious unless the HA/HX decides to take damage by either being silly or stupid, or the new player is an archer or thrower. Even then, against multiple HA/HX, he or she is absolutely fucked.
Oh, and as an afterthought, HA/HX are inherently more likely to delay without breaking the rules. They are, after all, simply "playing their class" It frustrates everyone in the server without a multiplicator to see a 1v15 battle where the single person is a range cavalry, shooting at medium-long range until they receive an unlucky (or very fortunate from the point of view of everyone else) projectile to the dome.
Crash course in how to avoid 1 single enemy HA/HX as polearm/2h.
1. Spin around like a maniac and never stop moving.
2. Let HA/HC waste arrows and continue this.
3. If they try to bump you, keep spinning until last moment and then slice their horse. They won't have a melee weapon if using bow, therefore any melee without shield (1h can be to short sometimes) can take down the HA with only the smallest amount of practice.
4. Kill them whilst they are on the ground.
Now 1 noob against multiple HA/HC should in no way survive. Even against multiple melee I would expect that noob to instantly die as they should. Only skilled players should stand a remote chance of surviving that and skilled players can also survive a single HA/HC. Multiple HA/HC is harder, but I have seen it done particularly if the melee player uses their horses against them e.g. manoeuvres so the enemy HA/HC end up charging each other and provide you with a free kill.
As for delaying. Well blame your ranged for not shooting the HA/HC in the first place. It is playing their class, don't like it? Well you're the one who died.
Against an HX, the new player can NEVER emerge victorious unless the HA/HX decides to take damage by either being silly or stupid, or the new player is an archer or thrower. Even then, against multiple HA/HX, he or she is absolutely fucked.
I understand how to dodge ranged, and in particular, how to dodge HX/HA. This was not a thread asking how to deal with these classes. I have a problem with a class being able to do damage with absolutely no risk of being damaged themselves. You seem to be fine with that. That's cool, we have different opinions. I'd also wager that you're a ranged cavalry player yourself. Of course you'd have that opinion, ha.
TLDR version: HA is fing high risk you pillock.
There's a lot of risk. Risk from ranged, there's a lot of it and any half decent warbow/arbalest user can hit your horse at a decent distance, particularly if they are smart and don't make themselves obvious and you're not looking to dodge. Then considering half the maps are either towns or villages with steep narrow valleys, melee hiding around a corner can wreak havoc on unsuspecting HA. Then there's probably the most annoying counter. Cav. Village maps aren't great places for large amounts of cav and it takes a manic amount of awareness as an HA to ride around, shooting horses and inf (most of the time looking sideways whilst doing this and not forward) and avoiding lancers coming from all directions. That and 1h shield cav are pretty good at taking down HA. HA shooting vs cav often requires the 'chicken' game. You can ride behind them all you like, but your damage is pretty insignificant. The best way to do any real damage to a lancer or 1h cav is to ride straight at them, then at the last moment when they are about to release their lance/take a swing with sword lowering shield you shoot, hit them, cancel their attack, cut to the side and cut off their horse so they rear and are easy game for your own cav/nearby inf. That kind of play is the highest risk you can take as HA. If you miss your shot it's the speed bonus working against you instead of for you and you'll almost always be insta killed. Same principle works against inf. To score any decent number of significant hits you need to be riding real close, shotgunning them. This requires a pretty fine judgement of their weapon length, the ability to spin and your horses manoeuvre, bearing in mind to get the kill on a full health melee you'd have to be doing this for some time and there are always those bloody annoying high agi builds who some how leap 2m forward and up through the air and take your head off in one go.
I could go on and on with different examples (just today some arsehole took me off my horse with 1 arbalest bolt to the chest, didn't even see him and he was a long way away but speed bonus meant insta-death for me...bloody good shot), but to be truly effective as HA using your bow (many HA get 1h kills *high risk*) it does require some very high risk play. On open maps you can cut this down rather a lot but the element of risk is still there. Plus there's the fact we do fuck all damage.
I'd argue that HA is one of the classes that requires the most manic awareness as well. Shooting in 3rd person has never been my thing due to the weird trajectory of the arrows and in 1st person you have to constantly draw, often shoot sideways and just as you start drawing turn to the front to keep your direction and repeat, all whilst looking out for enemies and obstacles. It's why I often cba to play my HA atm because it requires a lot of energy riding at speed and doing all these things. I'd much rather sit behind my shield on my hoplite or hide behind a tree and xbow things which are far easier. Arguably blocking and watching for cav needs awareness but not quite the same I find.
TLDR version: HA is fing high risk you pillock.
Seriously, if you can't kill a HA or outlast him dont pick a fight with it. Cavalry cant kill pikemen, 1h swords struggle against horsemen, non shield players cant chase down an archer. HA are not invincible it is just that you are clearly not playing a class that has the ability to counter them unless they do something stupid. If you want to counter them so much go play ranged and shoot their horse (an easy target) or play hoplite and protect the rear of your team or just take a throwing weapon.
As I said I can testify to their ability to die because I do kill them and quite a lot. My standard xbow/ 1h / shield alt brings down their horses with consumate ease, they often just get killed on the ground a minute later (if that). If I can do that at lvl 22 they clearly are not invincible :P
Seriously, if you can't kill a HA or outlast him dont pick a fight with it.
replying to Jankins here joker ;). But the whole idea that ha can eternally avoid you is rubbish. They run out of ammo eventually or get shot down. It is the same concept with kiting ranged tbh. If no cav is about then no one can catch him and he can kite eternally. There is no difference. With flags though this problem of delaying at the end is mostly not an issue atm. Most Ha I know charge into melee when presented with difficult odds but even if they don't, flags appear quick enough for it not to matter.
There have been a ton of range players since day one of c-RPG, and people complained about it since day 1. For two years I have heard constant complaints that "everyone has a crossbow" or that c-rpg is a "rangefest". Since then, ranged classes have been nerfed to hell. When c-rpg still had native style archery, I could shoot a bow 2 - 3 times faster than now. Athletics was also nerfed making it much much harder to kite as an archer compared to how it used to be. Air friction was increased making it tough to do damage at long range unless you get the angles right. Horse archers used to be feared, now they are more of an annoyance class. Master of the field didn't even work properly back in the day. Some players like to play ranged classes so these players stick with it. It isn't any different now compared to any other time in this mod, except that ranged classes are much weaker. There is plenty of risk when playing a ranged class. Archers are squishy, crossbowmen are vulnerable reloading, horse archers can't hit shit and do little damage. Any ranged class can be taken out easy by good cav or smart agility melee. I see how STR crutching my old friendhanders might get frustrated but that is their own choice. Master of the field is there for a reason and if someone is avoiding being killed you can just take the flag.
How to discourage no-risk play styles? Don't run off by yourself and be easy pickings for the "no-riskers" (aka the predators who are more mobile or stronger than yourself, or really anyone who can take advantage of one of your weaknesses).
I don't see any play style as being "no risk" personally. The only one I would possibly put in that category is a horse archer/horse crossbowman, but if they are off on the edge of the map, they're only able to fuck with the lone rambo's who are out on the edge of the map.
If you fight with your teammates, and near your own ranged, it becomes a moot point what these "no riskers" are doing. I can't pick you off with my horse and lance if you aren't by yourself, and aren't making yourself a target. If you fight with your teammates, any time I go in for an attack is a huge risk. My whole theory when I'm horse lancing is to minimize my risk while taking out the highest priorities on the enemy team. It's a subconscious equation that takes place in my head, and I put myself in riskier situations depending on how many people we are out numbered, and how the tide of the battle is going.
Protect your own ranged and support classes (as they support you), and see how much better the game feels. Or keep running around like you're on your own island and bitch and complain that c-rpg is borked.
I've been playing HA for a while now
I (along with MANY others) feel a large amount of frustration when forced to wait 2-3 minutes every round in order for flags to come up so we can secure a win.
Who the hell are you? :P
Do you really think that each battle should be over in under 2 minutes? Battle is fun because it rewards tactics and everything that happens is extremely meaningful since there are no respawns. A battle that is over in under 2 minutes means both sides brainless charged, which is extremely lame. Flags come up more than fast enough in my opinion and runners are a non issue. I also have a problem with the idea of removing an archer's ability to kite. With the extremely slow draw speed in crpg (compared to native) an archer is going to get like 2 shots at the most when an infantryman decides to focus on them. If the archer is lucky enough to have masterworked bow and arrows then they might be able to kill someone in 2 shots. The alternatives are run or fight. A pure archer is at an extreme disadvantage in a fight. If kiting is to be removed then archers need their draw speed doubled to actually give them a chance at killing an approaching infantryman. In order to kill kiting archers right now you need to either A) backstab, B) be faster than them, C) Be cav, or D) have some ranged ability. If none of these things are possible for you then you need to just focus on the flags and let them come to you since archer hunting is not your roll. Also, if you hate -1's on your posts so much then stop posting in archer nerf threads. (this thread is one)
I have indeed seen you in battle, and I respect what you do. You're an effective HA, and when confronted with insurmountable odds, you refuse to waste people's time/gold. Thank you for that.
I am Oggrinsky! Lancer rapist and horseman aficionado! :mad:
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