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Strategus => Strategus General Discussion => Topic started by: Thomek on October 11, 2012, 12:28:25 am

Title: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Thomek on October 11, 2012, 12:28:25 am
The problem we all know. Lack of real action in strat because powerblocks are building up, none are willing to wage an all out war in fear that a 3rd party or fragile alliances will break. My theory is that if factions had good ways to hurt each other without going all out/identifying themselves, they would do so.

Such a setup would open the gates of hell when it comes to who to trust, and who not to trust. Situations could quickly become unbearable, and force factions to go to all out war.

Idea is simple:

Allow clans or factions to create "secret" or black armies for backstabbing purposes

*To the enemy it would be impossible/hard to identify the owners of that army.
* Perhaps the combatants inside the army should also be secret, or it would often be a dead giveaway.
* Perhaps such armies should be harder/more expensive to maintain, relative to a normal army.

Other ways to sabotage for each other without going for all out wars.
Don't have so many ideas here, but paying to sabotage cities etc. could be an element here.

Peace is just too easy in strat!

It is carebear by nature, everyone can see who is attacking, everyone can see who is participating in battles. It needs to be dirtier to loosen up.
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Auphilia on October 11, 2012, 12:31:26 am
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Eh, all the more ways larger factions can pick on smaller ones. So far they just pretend they aren't part of their faction and wage "personal" wars. I'm assuming these armies would cost money? Mega-factions or mega-alliances will be the only ones willing/able to afford them, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: LordBerenger on October 11, 2012, 12:32:57 am
Quote from: Thomek on October 11, 2012, 12:28:25 am
The problem we all know. Lack of real action in strat because powerblocks are building up, none are willing to wage an all out war in fear that a 3rd party or fragile alliances will break. My theory is that if factions had good ways to hurt each other without going all out/identifying themselves, they would do so.

Allow clans or factions to create "secret" or black armies for backstabbing purposes


RACIST!
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Thomek on October 11, 2012, 12:35:09 am
lol.. ok bad wording.

Also perhaps the whole post has to much ninja written over it to most tastes.

Let's call them mercenary army then. When an army is flagged mercenary, it is impossible to see who leads it, who participates in the battle, and it is more expensive to maintain.
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Auphilia on October 11, 2012, 12:37:13 am
Quote from: Thomek on October 11, 2012, 12:35:09 am
lol.. ok bad wording.

Also perhaps the whole post has to much ninja written over it to most tastes.

Let's call them mercenary army then. When an army is flagged mercenary, it is impossible to see who leads it, who participates in the battle, and it is more expensive to maintain.

And why would any small faction spend extra money to field an army? The only ones who this could help are mega alliances who want to crush smaller ones without the rest of the map coming to their aid.

For example, Hospitallers would have used these armies to attack Hero_Party.
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Thomek on October 11, 2012, 12:37:56 am
Quote from: Auphilia on October 11, 2012, 12:31:26 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Eh, all the more ways larger factions can pick on smaller ones. So far they just pretend they aren't part of their faction and wage "personal" wars. I'm assuming these armies would cost money? Mega-factions or mega-alliances will be the only ones willing/able to afford them, I'm sure.

Well when big factions are forced to battle each other/have huge expenses for "black" operations, they won't have such power over smaller factions see? :)

Their real enemy is always the other big alliances. They just wipe smaller ones while they get in position for some theoretical gigantic clash. (Which sometimes never happen)

I think this suggestion would shake up the whole of strat, and this shake-up would create possibilities, also for smaller factions. You know.. The old risk strat of sitting silent in a corner the whole game, being friends with everyone really works. This tendency is especially prevalent when you look at strat, and the huge time/effort and risk a big war will cause.
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Auphilia on October 11, 2012, 12:42:03 am
Quote from: Thomek on October 11, 2012, 12:37:56 am
Well when big factions are forced to battle each other/have huge expenses for "black" operations, they won't have such power over smaller factions see? :)

If I hire an hitman to assassinate a target and that target is assassinated, what does it matter how strong I appear to the dead man?
The usage of these armies would be to cripple smaller clans or completely destroy them. If no one knows who did it, then the weakness is of no consequence.
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Smoothrich on October 11, 2012, 12:49:33 am
the problem with EU is you guys are cowards, and nothing will ever change that.

go to your nearest DRZ strat member and punch him in the face, and start a fucking bar brawl.  I heard that works better at getting fights to happen, then posting.
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Thomek on October 11, 2012, 12:51:37 am
Quote from: Smoothrich on October 11, 2012, 12:49:33 am
the problem with EU is you guys are cowards, and nothing will ever change that.
go to your nearest DRZ strat member and punch him in the face, and start a fucking bar brawl.  I heard that works better at getting fights to happen, then posting.
Agreed, but do you have any idea the trouble it is to organize a visa to russia?

@Auphilia
I get your point. But I think chances are that they would use this to weaken each other. If they wanted to take a small clan, they could do so with normal forces.

Perhaps these armies would not be able to actually take fiefs (since that would reveal their true master), but attack other armies in the field only.

The main problem anyhow, is that clans, big or small, form mega-alliances. These alliances must have some incentive to to actually wage war, so we can get to play some epic battles. Also, this would open up for smaller clans. Small clans are also people, and people might have information, which becomes crucial in a game that is more complicated than 2 carebear blocks.
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Casimir on October 11, 2012, 01:00:11 am
The two 'carebear' blocks are currently at war with each other.

There is no Peace on EU...
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Tomas on October 11, 2012, 01:27:01 am
won't you work out who's army it is as soon as they put a TS up to gather on for the battle?
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Lizard_man on October 11, 2012, 01:37:25 am
Quote from: Tomas on October 11, 2012, 01:27:01 am
won't you work out who's army it is as soon as they put a TS up to gather on for the battle?

Was thinking the same thing, at least it wouldn't be hard to go TS hopping...
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Braeden on October 11, 2012, 01:41:53 am
We would also have a disguised TS for anyone with disguised armies to use, that automatically randomized names and voices and IP addresses, modified your words to prevent recognition by word order, and translated everyone's language into British English to prevent anyone from having language problems.
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Thomek on October 11, 2012, 01:44:16 am
Just use team chat.. :)

Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 11, 2012, 02:19:58 am
Quote from: Thomek on October 11, 2012, 01:44:16 am
Just use team chat.. :)

Use someone ELSE's TS!
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Keshian on October 11, 2012, 05:19:45 am
Just make troops and gold easier to make.  Fiefs will trasnfer ownership far more readily - like in Strat 1.0.  Fortunes will fluctuate constantly and it will be easier for defeated factions to come back and small clans to do things as upkeep gets exponentionally higher with more troops.

More troops + more gold + much higher upkeep = forced continuous action as those troops and gold get used rather than get drowned in upkeep.

The game dynamic has steadily gotten more slow and methodical since the first strat and is the SINGLE biggest reason for large powerblocks with very little actual action as people don't lose fiefs easily, its very tough to come back when you lose so no one wants to take risks unlike strat 1.0 and everyone huddles into bigger and bigger powerblocks to not get completely wiped, being wiped is now near irrecoverable and even more so with each strat iteration (can't even trade now with limited S&D protected by clans).

Proposal: Strategus ticks : 100 gold per tick or 10 troops per tick
Upkeep: Exponentionally higher - think 2400 gold a day for 400 man armies (strategus gold ticks neutral upkeep level) and 10000 gold for 750 man armies
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 11, 2012, 06:24:42 am
so you want everyone to have small quickly made armies with midish gear?

Meh, I'll just stick with current system.
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Uumdi on October 11, 2012, 07:27:19 am
If I didn't have loyalties to friends, I'd start a faction that accepted armies from any and all to anonymously attack - thought about it at work.  Then again, with a 500 man army spontaneously waltzing out of your neighbor's territory, suspicions would be very high, hahah.

Also, if I started anything, It'd be an anonymous crpg cult based around esoteric studies, ethics, and self-improvement.  It would hopefully have at least 1 member besides me - a man can dream, right? haha


Huge obstacle with factions setting up secret service armies is with hiring mercs.  Many of us have long wanted to be able to sign up on alts, because we ran into a lot of trouble even signing up for people we sought good terms with - they immediately had suspicions that we really did not want to work with them and were trying to deter them from victory.  Other problem with that is everyone would play STFs.  Honestly, I don't think it'd be a problem, considering you need to properly gear them, so its far more limiting than you'd think - I would hope the scenario would never occur where a faction was up against 40 full str level 30 builds - but hey, they should be prepared for anything, right?
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Haboe on October 11, 2012, 10:47:29 am
Quote from: Keshian on October 11, 2012, 05:19:45 am

More troops + more gold + much higher upkeep = forced continuous action as those troops and gold get used rather than get drowned in upkeep.


Come on man, give cicero a break! He already had major issues maintaining his current army thats waiting in castle. (yea, he lost like 800 troops in the castle since he had no gold but 4k+ troops)


But yes, this would make more battles and force army's to stop building up.
But maybe too much. At this moment there are enough troops in the south alone to wage war for a week with thousands of tickets a day. Troop gain is easy enough, but the building up of troops needs a fix.
Higher upkeep for bigger army's so they won't build up. But still lower for the smaller ones, so the small clans don't get f'ed in the A so much.
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Vibe on October 11, 2012, 10:55:31 am
Do not be fooled people, this might look like a strat suggestion thread but it's really another Thomek buff katana thread. Observe:

Quote from: Thomek on October 11, 2012, 12:28:25 am
The problem we all knowbuff katana. Lack ofbuff katana real action in strat because powerblocks are building upbuff katana, none are willing to wage an all out war in fear that a 3rd party or fragile alliances will breakbuff katana. My theory is thatbuff katana if factions had good ways tobuff katana hurt each other without going all out/identifying themselves, they would do so.buff katana

Such a setup would open thebuff katana gates of hell when it comes to who to trust, and who not to trust. Situations could quickly become unbearable, and force factions to go to all out war.

Idea is simple:buff katana

Allow clans or factions tobuff katana create "secret" or black armies for backstabbing purposes

*To the enemy it would be impossible/hard tobuff katana identify the owners of that army.
* Perhaps the combatants inside the army should also be secret, or it would often be a buff katanadead giveaway.
* Perhapsbuff katana such armies should be harder/more expensive to maintain, relative to a normal army.

Other ways tobuff katana sabotage for each other without going for all out wars.
Don't have so many ideas here, but paying to sabotage cities etc. could be an element here.

Peace is just too easy in strat!

It is carebear by nature, everyone can seebuff katana who is attacking, everyone can see who is participating in battles. It needs to be dirtier to loosen up.
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: dodnet on October 11, 2012, 11:02:26 am
Quote from: Casimir on October 11, 2012, 01:00:11 am
The two 'carebear' blocks are currently at war with each other.

There is no Peace on EU...

Looking at the current battles, I see no war. There's mostly small factions fighting each other...

And seeing all those unarmed 500+ west carebear blobs strolling around at the west carebear border with 300 crates makes me puke.
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Haboe on October 11, 2012, 11:06:59 am
Quote from: dodnet on October 11, 2012, 11:02:26 am
Looking at the current battles, I see no war. There's mostly small factions fighting each other...

And seeing all those unarmed 500+ west carebear blobs strolling around at the west carebear border with 300 crates makes me puke.

There are around 20k troops near the desert in the south (eu). There is bound to be a war soon, but would be nice to motivate all those troops to start dieing for their country as they are supposed to.
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Vovka on October 11, 2012, 11:08:55 am
   Strat again and again force faction sit on fiefs. If u loose it u cant back to strat, that a problem for last 3 strat rounds. Small faction too scary attack a silly village with 100 garrison cos in case of defeate they loose 1 month cost equipment. Economy in Start 1 was much better the economys in next version, gold income from cRPG (multiaacaunting is usless for grind) free troops income from village. Add to this grind troops in fields, boost gold income from trade. Cancel stupid raid. And small clan can take and hold atleast 1 fief (village or shitty castle) for 1 or 2 weeks

Quote from: Thomek on October 11, 2012, 12:28:25 am
(click to show/hide)

 Tomek we have alliance from strat 1. During this time, several factions passed each other all the army, all the weapons and gold. Without any obligations. I wonder whitch block from strat 4 will fall from Backstab ))
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: SoA_Sir_ODHarry on October 11, 2012, 09:23:27 pm
well i wanted too make an own Thread for this but ill just post it here...


Since im bored i share my Strat Ideas with u  :lol:
included a bunch of Ideas from other Threads

There is a relativ simpel Way too make Strat much less stare and take some Power of the Carbear Blocks.
My Concept would be too create 4 different main Types of Factions/Players:

-Conqueres

-Traders/Blacksmiths=Looms

-Bandits/Headhunters

-Mercenaries


the different Roles they play r obvisously....
The Trick is too give each Faction Type small Benefits and Drawbacks so that they cant be succesfull without another 1.
Also all the Factions would represent different Types of Playstyles and through that attract more Peopel too play Strat.

For Exampel if some Factions want too conquer all Land they can get between their Fingers they can do it but they should have huge Drawbacks at their Supplys.
So they need the Support of some Traderfactions too equate their Drawbacks of trading. Like just the Traderfactions r abel too use Caravans ,can create Looms and overall get better Prices than the other Factions.
Since the Conquerers own all the Land they should got the Coin of Taxes too pay them.

http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/add-donkey's-and-caravans-to-strat/

also their Members r not good at making Profit since they are Soldiers and not Traders so they better at fighting Battels ,patroulling the Lands and recruiting new Comerades. This Factions can maintain Armys at less cost because thats what they made for....
So when this Faction need extra Coin too get all the good stuff who they gonna ask for Support first? Traders and Bandits.
Well since Caravans need Protection too avoid being raided on their Way ,and since the Faction/s which they evantually cooperate with ,need all their Forces too hold or conquer Land,
they need Mercenaries which protect them.
Becuz Traders want too make Money and they r so focused at it they no good at managing forces, thats why recruiting and maintain an Army is very expensiv and takes Ages,that makes Mercenaries very attractive,for them.

MERCENARIES,....mercenaries r EVERYWHERE since the Goal of this Guys is too fight good Battelz for good Coin im sure many cRPGlers would choose too be 1.
Their Benefit in Strategus could be that they carry their own Equipment too the Battel which is extra excellent.
That could be Weps and/or Armours that loomabel above +3 or more IF in Battels... whatsever give them a Bonus in Battels that is balanceabel.
So Mercenaries just play Strat like they play cRPG anyway. Probably they should gotta Goal at regular cRPG  like getting Gold and Looms at the end of an Strat Round or during it.
Anyway the more experienced and well eqiuped a Merc is the more he costs so there r always Jobs for them too be done fits too the priceclass that is needed.
The Drawback for them is that they need too be relativ close too the Battelspots too participate and so fulfill their Contract and they r also not abel too attack other Targets by themselv...
I think building up a well renowned and well equipped Mercforce in Strat is a quite nice Goal :)

Back too our Caravan:
The Trader/guild hired some Mercs afford a littel Guard and packed the Goods.Since we got the new S&D System their aimed Route is probably a quite long way for maximum Profit.
Thats why Bandits got enuff Time too plan a Raid of the Caravan.Their Factions Benfit is the Speedbonus and a Bonus at what they raid.
They also can hire Mercs and also can get hired themselv by Factions who want the Caravan too be raided.
They got a Drawback on maintaining an greater Army so they got too plan very well or rely on some Mercs. Drawback means they abel too maintain an army(=transporting Goods) for an relative short amount of Time so they gotta be scared of Patrouls or Headhunters.
Otherwise the Upeekp gonna ruin their Profit they also cant conquer Fiefs.
I thought bout it and it would be reasonabel too me that just Members of the Bandit Faction r abel too start Raids.
So Raidmode could stay without being so exploitabel for Fief Conquerers.

Also a basic Diplomatic System must be implemented That would add ALOT too strat....
Through this Contracts can be made among the 4 different Factiontype Players.

Another nice new mechanic could be Buildings that can be added too the Fiefs..
For exampel Trader Guilds could build Blacksmiths/Stalls too produce Looms,Bandits can create Bases and Blackmarkets,Mercenaries Headquarters and Conquerers Barracks and something too raise Taxes u gotta pay when u visit their Fiefs.( for exampel..)

However the Basic of my Concept is the splitted Action possibilitys through different Faction Types.
So every Player has the  Possibility to be an active part of Strat.

greetz OD
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Everkistus on October 12, 2012, 08:26:39 am
Quote from: Smoothrich on October 11, 2012, 12:49:33 am
the problem with EU is you guys are cowards, and nothing will ever change that.

go to your nearest DRZ strat member and punch him in the face, and start a fucking bar brawl.  I heard that works better at getting fights to happen, then posting.
This is a blatant lie. Think of what we've been doing since the start of this strategus. I had 5 peasant battles in the desert with my captured DRZ villages, and then we try to capture their castle and village in our border.

The thing is, when two blocs clash, it takes lots of troops and gold to equip them. Generating them takes time.
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Butan on October 12, 2012, 01:27:12 pm
Quote from: Everkistus on October 12, 2012, 08:26:39 am
This is a blatant lie. Think of what we've been doing since the start of this strategus. I had 5 peasant battles in the desert with my captured DRZ villages, and then we try to capture their castle and village in our border.

The thing is, when two blocs clash, it takes lots of troops and gold to equip them. Generating them takes time.

This,


Just wait if you want more blood to be spilled, it already started but it will become larger with time.
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: kinngrimm on October 13, 2012, 01:09:34 pm
mercing contract for clanless players:
gaining the right to lead merc armies in bigger and bigger troop numbers depending on factors like within what time after he got the army the army is used. Is the army used in the same status or with less/more troops equip then at the begin of the merc contract.
NO upkeep for the merc army, but at the time the armies will be produced by the faction not to be named, that faction has to spend like 20% more on equipment cost without any discounts possible.

EDIT: leave briefing and roster complettly out. Whoever signs on will be taken and their identity masked.

EDIT2: counter espionage task for clanless players:
At the time they take this contract and take part in battles of the above type, independently if attacker or defender sight. They then have a chance to identify the origin of that army and sell that information for a good sack full of gold.
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Olwen on October 13, 2012, 01:35:58 pm
people need to care less about those alliances when it comes to roster

if people would merc for both sides, no matter their alliances i'm quite sure there would be less powerblocks
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Firebrand on October 13, 2012, 01:45:14 pm
Quote from: Olwen on October 13, 2012, 01:35:58 pm
people need to care less about those alliances when it comes to roster

if people would merc for both sides, no matter their alliances i'm quite sure there would be less powerblocks
This.
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 13, 2012, 03:47:22 pm
Quote from: Olwen on October 13, 2012, 01:35:58 pm
people need to care less about those alliances when it comes to roster

if people would merc for both sides, no matter their alliances i'm quite sure there would be less powerblocks

You obviously don't read my posts in the NA drama...i mean NA Strat Threads. I wish there were more like me, but there really isn't.
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: kinngrimm on October 14, 2012, 05:02:10 am
role models of SoA_Sir_ODHarry actually seem to be a quite good idear, i am not sure that they would get rid of big alliances, because those factions in an alliance would then specialize to be able to get the benefits of the other roles. Nevertheless my 5cent to that idear.


-Conqueres
less troop upkeep or even better less unrest if at sometime this would be included, malus on trade and production points.

-Traders/Blacksmiths=Looms
faster traveling and/or more amount of goods while same travel speed, perhaps some additional discounts, much more production point for upgrades needed(you know you can buy shit all over the map and use it or sell it for a profit).

-Bandits/Headhunters
being able to recruit faster, less upkeep, being able to get not attacked for 3-5 hours, which would account for all of those factions at same time. This so they can get into a fief and buy/sell shit and leave again without being targeted.

-Mercenaries
much less Production Points used and therefor able to get really nice equipment fast or if not that, then no downgrading of equipment if a battle is lost, less upkeep but very high unrest after 3-5 fiefs. Trade Malus(You want gold then get a contract).

These roles would be needed to be chosen at reset and counts for whole faction, neither the faction nor those who joined that faction would be able to alter that afterwards. So anyone who decided for one of those roles is stuck with them for one round of strat.
Title: Re: Idea for solution to powerblocks forming + Drama potential!
Post by: SoA_Sir_ODHarry on October 23, 2012, 09:08:51 am
BUMP

because the idea is nice