cRPG

Strategus => Strategus General Discussion => Topic started by: KC_ascanet on September 24, 2012, 10:09:49 pm

Title: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: KC_ascanet on September 24, 2012, 10:09:49 pm
So yesterday I fought in a battle asking for 1k gold (I didn't realize it was strat gold at the time, oops).

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After we won the fight, I noticed they weren't required to pay me. So what gives?

Either clarify you're entering into an agreement that you probably won't make money on (and also clarify it's strat gold), or just do away with it altogether.

A show of hands how many people think the systems broken
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: Miwiw on September 24, 2012, 10:24:04 pm
In 99% of all cases you won't get gold. After all you are joining a battle for fun and experience. The battle leader might decide to give people some gold, but he is of course not forced to do so.

This doesn't have to be removed or changed.
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: Digglez on September 24, 2012, 10:25:39 pm
shouldnt be able to hire them if you dont have gold to pay.  This is also why money needs to be a little looser in Strat 4, so mercenaries are a real occurrence.

Do you buy or upgrade your gear, get more horses or hire GOOD mercs?
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: Rikthor on September 24, 2012, 10:26:08 pm
Well I think it is probably good the way it is. I mean it suck they didn't pay you but at the same time it does allow for a bit of realism I suppose. If someone backs out on your contracted rate, you let everyone know and other mercs/sellswords won't be willing to work for them. At the same time, the people who day pay you appropriately, you would work for again most likely.
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: KC_ascanet on September 24, 2012, 10:29:14 pm
In 99% of all cases you won't get gold. After all you are joining a battle for fun and experience. The battle leader might decide to give people some gold, but he is of course not forced to do so.

This doesn't have to be removed or changed.

You are stating the facts.

Fact 1: In 99% of all cases you won't get gold.
Fact 2: The battle leader might decide to give people some gold, but he is of course not forced to do so.

Am I joining the battle for fun and experience? I don't believe anyone can decide if it's fun and rewarding for me except myself.

I would like to see the facts change so that we can increase the number of sellswords applying to fight in battles. I think in order for true mercs to take this mod seriously they first need a guarantee from their client
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: KC_ascanet on September 24, 2012, 10:34:57 pm
Well I think it is probably good the way it is. I mean it suck they didn't pay you but at the same time it does allow for a bit of realism I suppose. If someone backs out on your contracted rate, you let everyone know and other mercs/sellswords won't be willing to work for them. At the same time, the people who day pay you appropriately, you would work for again most likely.

I was just testing the system really. I can't say I agree with your assessment of the realism because currently the client can back out of the agreement before the fight by retracting the application. The merc can choose to reapply without pay if they really want to fight.

Currently, there is little incentive to follow through on the deal
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: Turboflex on September 24, 2012, 10:39:09 pm
You need to negotiate merc rates beforehand if you want to get paid. Some clans do need dedicated and exclusive mercs, and would be willing to work out a contract.
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: PhantomZero on September 24, 2012, 10:40:53 pm
I was just testing the system, which is more time than most people would invest trying to figure strat battles out.

I don't really agree with your assessment of the realism because currently the client can back out of the agreement before the fight by retracting the application. The merc can choose to reapply without pay if they really want to fight.

Currently, there is little incentive to follow through on the deal

This system has been in place since Strategus 1, and I really don't see a problem with it. Most merc agreements are organized on a clan level, and only the best independent players would ever hope to make any money for a strat battle, and becoming enemies with good players by not paying them is never a good idea.

That being said, with this new banking system you might see people refuse to merc without at least some sort of payment, but it would take a lot of people since there are a lot of people willing to fight for free just for the experience.
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: KC_ascanet on September 24, 2012, 10:47:41 pm
You need to negotiate merc rates beforehand if you want to get paid. Some clans do need dedicated and exclusive mercs, and would be willing to work out a contract.

But why can't that feature be built into the system?

You are saying I need to get in the hot tub with the leaders of the real shit, show them they need my help, and negotiate pay for every battle? That's a lot to ask. What about just submitting a contract request with a negotiable pay rate from cRPG website

This system has been in place since Strategus 1, and I really don't see a problem with it. Most merc agreements are organized on a clan level, and only the best independent players would ever hope to make any money for a strat battle, and becoming enemies with good players by not paying them is never a good idea.

That being said, with this new banking system you might see people refuse to merc without at least some sort of payment, but it would take a lot of people since there are a lot of people willing to fight for free just for the experience.


So many changes have been made both to the UI and gameplay since Strategus 1, why can't the pay request feature be improved upon like the rest? I am sorry I am not making things clearer for you, but the system gives little incentive to join a fight as a free company
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: PhantomZero on September 24, 2012, 10:56:41 pm
But why can't that feature be built into the system?

You are saying I need to get in the hot tub with the leaders of the real shit, show them they need my help, and negotiate pay for every battle? That's a lot to ask. What about just submitting a contract request with a negotiable pay rate from cRPG website

So many changes have been made both to the UI and gameplay since Strategus 1, why can't the pay request feature be improved upon like the rest? I am sorry I am not making things clearer for you, but the system gives little incentive to join a fight as a free company

There is a whole forum dedicated to negotiating pay for individual battles: http://forum.meleegaming.com/mercenary-recruitment/ you can also send people private messages on the forum and the cRPG page itself if you just click on the guy commanding the battle. Sure you can just show up to a battle and say "give me money" but they probably won't pay, and trying to revamp the system wouldn't change anything, except bonus pay.

The biggest benefit this has over a fixed contract is performance based pay. If I say the players with the top 5 KDRs get 500, and everyone with a positive KDR gets 100, and everyone below 1:1: gets 50. Or if I wanted to pay everyone a base price of 100g and then multiply that by their KDR then dole out additional funds to people who guarded the spawn flags and maybe not get as many kills. I can do that without having people try and guess how well they are going to do.

The system gives great incentive to join the fight as a free company, experience points for your cRPG character. If you are good enough and request money you will probably get it.

Enforcing a contract would mean that some merc could show up for 1000 gold and then if he doesn't do anything or starts teamkilling and gets himself banned I would then have to pay him that 1,000.
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: Braeden on September 24, 2012, 11:14:08 pm
If I hire people for pay, I pay it.  Win or lose. So normally I don't hire for pay.  However if I ask for pay, and don't get it, I consider that casus belli.  I would expect most to.  But apparently most don't care.

Enforce, but do so with retaliation.  The option to be a cheating stiff should exist.
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: KC_ascanet on September 24, 2012, 11:19:56 pm
There is a whole forum dedicated to negotiating pay for individual battles: http://forum.meleegaming.com/mercenary-recruitment/ you can also send people private messages on the forum and the cRPG page itself if you just click on the guy commanding the battle. Sure you can just show up to a battle and say "give me money" but they probably won't pay, and trying to revamp the system wouldn't change anything, except bonus pay.

The biggest benefit this has over a fixed contract is performance based pay. If I say the players with the top 5 KDRs get 500, and everyone with a positive KDR gets 100, and everyone below 1:1: gets 50. Or if I wanted to pay everyone a base price of 100g and then multiply that by their KDR then dole out additional funds to people who guarded the spawn flags and maybe not get as many kills. I can do that without having people try and guess how well they are going to do.

The system gives great incentive to join the fight as a free company, experience points for your cRPG character. If you are good enough and request money you will probably get it.

Enforcing a contract would mean that some merc could show up for 1000 gold and then if he doesn't do anything or starts teamkilling and gets himself banned I would then have to pay him that 1,000.

Revamping the system would create a streamlined process for everyone to follow. If done right it would revolutionize the merc trade. I think you're not giving the idea as much credit as you could

Well experience points, woohoo. I have been playing this game for almost two years. I would rather receive monetary compensation for my time.

Your last scenario entices me. Yes that could happen, so what? That person just screwed themselves from ever participating in battles again

I think the current system gives the person hosting the fight too much control, and that power will always go unchecked.
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: Garem on September 25, 2012, 01:38:17 am
This system has been in place since Strategus 1, and I really don't see a problem with it. Most merc agreements are organized on a clan level, and only the best independent players would ever hope to make any money for a strat battle, and becoming enemies with good players by not paying them is never a good idea.

That being said, with this new banking system you might see people refuse to merc without at least some sort of payment, but it would take a lot of people since there are a lot of people willing to fight for free just for the experience.

Plus, did you even bother to contact the FCC (or whoever it was you fought for) prior to the battle? Half of the people who put a number on the payment bar are joking anyways.

I highly encourage you to contact clans and arrange fees for fighting, as that's the only way to get things done. Just don't expect them to be terribly interested- most independent players fight for free XP and fun, and most clans make inter-clan agreements to fight in each others battles at little to no cost. Why is this the status quo? It benefits both of them, either by getting more players or by earning free XP in fun battles. Plus the secondary benefit of building coalitions to get bigger goals accomplished.

My advice to you is either (a) start an NA merc faction (I don't know of any right now) and make agreements with other factions or (b) just join a clan. There are lots of great clans and they're all rather unique in style, quality, etc.
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: Keshian on September 25, 2012, 04:44:27 pm
Plus, did you even bother to contact the FCC (or whoever it was you fought for) prior to the battle? Half of the people who put a number on the payment bar are joking anyways.


THIS.  A bunch of people put joking numbers like 5000 or 65000 or 1000 gold, which is more than we spent on the equipment for the entire army and no merc in the world would ever be worth that.  In Strat 1 where money was easier to make and you got paid in cRPG gold the best mercs would make 1000 gold.  Since then Strat 3 and 4 vastly decreased gold production and when you pay mercs they get Strat gold, which for the first 3 strats most people who liked to merc didn't care about strategus gold.  Strat 4 bank might have slightly changed this, but not by much.

Also, rule of thumb for strategus fights and mercing for money - put in the comment section "pay 50 gold or don't hire" or "flat fee 200 gold" (both fees in line with current gold production).  The most common way was to put 1 gold as your fee and then in comment section post "payment based upon performance"  - I remember paying those people the best repeatedly after important battles.  But you actually need to post some realistic fee or 1 gold pay on performance and let the clan know you are legitimately mercing from what you post in your comment section in your application, otherwise most clans will not even take notice of the random unrealistic number you put in.
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 25, 2012, 05:47:22 pm
Agreed with most of the veteran's comments here.

Putting something in the description is always something I'd suggest, even if you're not mercing. 
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: KC_ascanet on September 26, 2012, 01:24:52 am
Well I do understand how the current process works.

What I am proposing in this topic is that the feature be changed by the developers to make a contract automatically pay the people who's application were accepted.

It would be awesome if people please stop posting in here explaining how to work around the current system, because while that's helpful.. it's not what this is about.

Devs please reread original post and take it to heart. If you want to see mercs take this mod seriously, this is the first step!
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: Tanken on September 26, 2012, 01:30:24 am
You only went 13:9, that's not a pay-worthy score imo.
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 26, 2012, 02:16:04 am
You only went 13:9, that's not a pay-worthy score imo.

Wut? how do you KNOW his score. You only know his k/d.  It should record your score at end of battle too. You can go 1:15 and have top of scoreboard or go 15:0 and only middle of pack.
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: KC_ascanet on September 26, 2012, 02:59:40 am
If I recall I was 2nd place on the team only miggy had me beat. Though it's irrelevant. I'm more focused on the process of mercing being more integrated into the website
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 26, 2012, 03:04:17 am
If I recall I was 2nd place on the team only miggy had me beat. Though it's irrelevant. I'm more focused on the process of mercing being more integrated into the website

Aye but the people who pay can only see your K/D. As such, pay is hard because of that. Even if you did SUPER AWESOME with mass score but have shit K/D don't expect any pay.
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: Tanken on September 26, 2012, 03:11:26 am
Only noobs to strat battles ask for payment. I pay people who don't ask anything and do really well. Now if it was cRPG gold that you could request in the system apart from strat gold I'd use it a little more, but strat gold demands this early are too hard to pay out.
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: Warham on September 26, 2012, 05:52:08 am
I am ready to pay to mercs in my battle if they have good skills, cause i'm not in a big clan and sometimes it's hard to make good roster.
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: PhantomZero on September 26, 2012, 08:08:40 am
Wut? how do you KNOW his score. You only know his k/d.  It should record your score at end of battle too. You can go 1:15 and have top of scoreboard or go 15:0 and only middle of pack.

Score doesn't matter in strategus, deaths do.
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: Uumdi on September 26, 2012, 08:23:08 am
Yeah - its a beautiful idea, but nobody really knows the real value of strat gold either, especially so early in this strat.  Factions are scrambling to make +0 items atm, since everything starts ruined and tattered.  Modest payouts are appropriate, but again, you need to RP pretty hard if you actually value strat gold.  1000 strat gold is a ton atm.  As an individual it would be more appropriate to piece together small sums of gold less than 50 - if the system's to be used at all.

It would be really cool if you had to pay up front - but in all honesty, clan battles and agreements already have it to where they sign up for each other for free - anything less is an insult to their pride.  Already, mercing for clans is a type of backhanded diplomacy for those who are already in clans.  Strat 3 was mostly a cold war for most clans.  If you signed up against those who you were on good or peaceful terms with, they will get suspicious and uneasy, if not, take it as a malicious act - especially if they perform well in an important battle.

To me, that's problematic, and I would like to see a better system, but can not offer one.  I would hope its nothing too drastic.  Its kind of OK how it is.
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 26, 2012, 06:13:36 pm
Better system would be that you can only see the names of people signed up on your side.  The enemy side would be player 1, 2 3, etc.

This was a great suggestion in strat 3 when we had AI fiefs, but still viable in strat 4.

Sure I'm going to recognize some faces like Canary (and potentially the heraldic mail on armor and shields, see below, but I still won't know for sure who they are.  I think this is a perfect solution personally. 

If they were interested in doing something like this, it might not hurt to have everyone's heraldry for the battle to default to the faction's heraldry.  I know it's realistic, and both tactical to have people retain their own heraldry in battles, but it might solve the problem of knowing who's signing up for you in force.

But then again, maybe that's completely a non-issue.
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: KC_ascanet on September 26, 2012, 07:09:34 pm
I like the idea of anonymity as a merc. So that could be something long-term they address if they decide it fits.

It would be awesome if there was some acknowledgement from devs that the current system could use more work
Title: Re: Sellswords in Strat
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 11, 2012, 10:51:08 pm
Bumping this.
http://forum.meleegaming.com/diplomacy/breaking-news-hospitallers-invade-10-man-faction-with-2000-shiny-troops/msg627150/#msg627150

This kind of attitude is horrendus. This is the attitude that makes randoms not wish to play. The attitude of: Well I'm giving you xp, so be grateful i even hired you to get it!

I'll still chug on along as a sellsword, but people just don't want to pay. Not even 10 measly strat gold. Like, how can you be such tightwads like that?

Fix the mercenary attitude!