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cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vodner on August 22, 2012, 05:06:57 pm

Title: WPF and Damage
Post by: Vodner on August 22, 2012, 05:06:57 pm
e: Until this post has received some feedback, you should probably hold off drawing any conclusions from it. I could always have made a mistake.

Most people know that WPF increases damage, and most people know that the damage bonus is 15% for every 100 WPF you go past 100.

However, I'm not sure if most people realize that the bonus to damage from WPF stacks multiplicatively (rather than additively) with the damage bonus from powerstrike. That is, the multiplier to damage is (1 + 0.08PS)(0.85 + 0.0015WPF) [source] (http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,168722.msg4090900.html#msg4090900), assuming no speed bonus, hold bonus, or sweetspot penalty. I was running some numbers, and this actually leads to a surprising increase in damage.

The following is a table that plots the effective damage for 8-conversion level 30 melee builds with maxed WM, vs the damage bonus for builds with both 0 and 3 WM. This is assuming no WPF penalty, so heavier armor will drastically affect this.
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For example, a build with 111 WPF would need 5.68 PS to do as much damage as a 4 PS build with 180 WPF. Also, a 3 WM 15/27 build will actually do slightly less damage than a 9 WM 12/27 build (with light armor).

Some of the WPF values may be a bit off. I remembered that 0 WM is 111 WPF, 3 WM is 130 WPF, and I believe that 9 WM is 180 WPF. For the rest of the values, I used the calculator.

If I have made any errors, please don't hesitate to correct me.

e:
It occurs to me that I didn't include the strength/5 bonus to damage. However, this bonus is simply added to the raw damage prior to calculating armor reduction, so it should be very tiny compared to the base damage of the weapon multiplied by all the modifiers.
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: San on August 22, 2012, 05:27:08 pm
That is why I want to respec my main from a 24/15 hybrid to a 21/21 pure build. I won't even lose much damage.
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: Elindor on August 22, 2012, 05:37:38 pm
Hmm, I am 21/21 (well now im 22/21 cause I just hit 33) with 7 PS and MW Longsword and I hit people pretty hard except people in lots of plate and lots of IF I have to hit a number of times, but everyone else like 1-2 maybe 3 hits. 

I knew wpf added dmg (1.5% per 10 wpf over 100 I heard) but this is definitely interesting to see.
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: oprah_winfrey on August 22, 2012, 05:50:08 pm
Assuming the additional swing speed isn't forcing more hits due to it being too fast to block, what I am seeing from this chart is that basically a maxed WM build would be choosing .2-.5 ps over 1.5 IF, atleast for 18-21 str+.
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: Swaggart on August 22, 2012, 06:23:28 pm
With the hints about a rework of WPF, this might not be true soon.
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: Teeth on August 22, 2012, 07:30:28 pm
I recently read that strength adds a little bit to damage, but I don't see this in the damage multiplier? Nevermind.

I did not know the WPF damage bonus stacked multiplicatively and you got me scared there for a second. Even then, though, the damage bonus from WPF is rather minor. I lost about 0.4 worth of PS by going 4 WM instead of 6, I'd rather have the 4 more hitpoints. And that is still without the rather drastic decrease to effective WPF from my armor.

So thanks for the insightful post, but it changes nothing for me.
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 22, 2012, 07:50:03 pm
I thought it was additive but everything I've done with archery pointed to this. Makes sense that it is multiplicative.

And now you know why I did 18/27. 6 PD 9 WM, 182 WPF. @ lvl32
People assume my arcHer is a "strength longbowman" until I tell them otherwise. Because my damage output matches shik's 10 PD longbowman at any distance greater than 20M.

So, I now wonder what PD/WM combination does the most damage. Either way, they all do comparable damage...
@ 30
15/27
18/24
21/21
24/18
27/15
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: rustyspoon on August 22, 2012, 08:18:15 pm
I've kind of suspected this for a while, especially after playing a lot of agi-heavy builds like 12/24, 6/33.

It changes the meta game a lot too. Do you want to be harder to hit, or the ability to take more hits? Since damage will be fairly close, especially after considering held attacks and speed bonus.
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: Vodner on August 22, 2012, 09:54:27 pm
I'm not actually sure if WPF reduction due to armor affects damage, or if it only affects swing speed, accuracy, and PD/PT requirements. I would guess the former, but I've never actually read anything to that effect.

It's worth noting that speed bonus, hold bonus, and limb damage modifiers also all stack multiplicatively. So if you've got a really high ath high WM build, you can deal out some serious punishment with high speed bonus held head hits. It won't be as high as a strength build doing the same thing (probably; the duel server doesn't print out the speed bonus of hits, so I'm not sure how high that gets), but it's a lot easier to line up those hits with more ath.

Quote
So, I now wonder what PD/WM combination does the most damage. Either way, they all do comparable damage...
@ 30
15/27
18/24
21/21
24/18
27/15
If WPF reduction due to PD affects damage (I would guess that it does), then this chart should be accurate:
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If that's not the case, then this chart (http://s13.postimage.org/yw6j6ni2f/rangedchart_A.png) should be accurate.

Either way, it looks like higher PD builds do more damage. On the other hand, the difference isn't all that pronounced, and the lower PD builds are going to be vastly more accurate. I'm not sure how (if it all) WPF affects damage dropoff due to decreased projectile speed at range.
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 22, 2012, 10:54:46 pm
Now the clincher: There is damage drop off over distance for archery, and the less WPF you have, the faster your damage drops off. 'tleast this has been what all my testing has observed. Dumb air friction.

That table looks accurate for the damage  increase produced. At point blank range, shik with 10 PD will onehit me. My shot at pointblank nearly onehits him, but he has more HP than my character so he lives. I do a bit less (like 8 to 10 output damage at most less, both of us using MW Longbows and bodkins).
But here's the thing, at 20m We do almost identical damage, he does barely more. My damage barely lowers, but his drops a ton over that small of a distance. He can no longer onehit me, but I take the same % off of him.
At 30 meters + we are identical damage, no difference. Except his accuracy is shit and he can't hit me standing still half of the time at 30M.

It is dumb.
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: Vodner on August 22, 2012, 11:18:44 pm
Quote
Now the clincher: There is damage drop off over distance for archery, and the less WPF you have, the faster your damage drops off. 'tleast this has been what all my testing has observed. Dumb air friction.
Drag is proportional to the square of velocity, so I wouldn't be surprised if high PD builds lost a lot of damage that way (due to their faster projectile speed).
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: Tydeus on August 23, 2012, 04:32:26 am
So, I now wonder what PD/WM combination does the most damage. Either way, they all do comparable damage...
@ 30
15/27
18/24
21/21
24/18
27/15
6PD Builds, as shik stated in irc are surely (as of the current patch) the optimal build. Not because of the intrinsic nature of 6 PD and all of its magnificance, but because 6D is the requirement for the Long Bow and the Rus Bow, which do vastly more damage than the Horn Bow or any other bow for that matter.
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 23, 2012, 08:10:35 am
more like *requirement for rusbow. But yeah, 6PD builds are the best. Comparable damage, ALL the accuracy and fire rate.
Longbow is not that great, a weapon only used for style purposes.

IMO bow ranking looks like this:
Rus & horn bow - tied for #1
Yumi and Tatar Bow - tied for 2nd
Nomad and Longbow - tied for third
- no fourth place
Bow in fifth because it's that much worse than the rest
no sixth place or seventh place
Short bow in 8th, jesus god it's bad.
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: owens on August 23, 2012, 08:39:14 am
I beleive that PS reduced the chance of glancing and the damage that glanced attacks do.

This is opposed to wpf's advantage in higher weapon speed.


So you have to be more precise with agility builds but it is easier to be precise. Extreme ath builds can put out really high dps due to speed bonuses but they dont work as reliably as you would think you have to be moving forward to get the most from them not by just spinning.
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: ArysOakheart on August 23, 2012, 10:30:50 am
I know for a fact some of my shots off as an archer (6 PD 163WPF) over a far range, gather me 0 points, though I know it does damage. I hope that adds into your math shit. (Btw using a 25c - regular bodkins - 25p bow)
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: Shub on August 23, 2012, 10:37:36 am
tatar bow has smaller aim reticle then horn bow for the same amount of eWPF . tested
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: Aderyn on August 23, 2012, 11:23:07 am
long bow is pretty alright if you have the time to stand still for a second, very accurate. (the mw ones at least)

Unfortunly you usually dont have that time since cav and crossbowmen are chasing/shooting you.
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 23, 2012, 03:29:31 pm
tatar bow has smaller aim reticle then horn bow for the same amount of eWPF . tested
ofc it does.
The tatar bow does less damage for it's accuracy value, so it is more accurate.
This is also why the longbow is the least accurate bow even though it's accuracy score is the highest. It has more base damage.
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: Phew on August 23, 2012, 05:40:50 pm
Many builds generally have the choice between:

3 more strength and 1 more Power Strike
-or-
7 Weapon Master

The former yields about 9% more damage and 3 more HP, the latter generally yields about 6% more damage, about 3 weapon speed, and reduced repair frequency of your weapon.

Seems pretty balanced to me. I always max out weapon master myself, because the military hammer needs all the help it can get in the speed department.
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: Cup1d on August 23, 2012, 05:56:01 pm
It occurs to me that I didn't include the strength/5 bonus to damage. However, this bonus is simply added to the raw damage prior to calculating armor reduction, so it should be very tiny compared to the base damage of the weapon multiplied by all the modifiers.

This can be quite valuable addition for low base damage weapons with good armor piercing ability. Like Bec, or picks, or maces.

long bow is pretty alright if you have the time to stand still for a second, very accurate. (the mw ones at least)
Unfortunly you usually dont have that time since cav and crossbowmen are chasing/shooting you.


Longbow is alright after 170 wpf. In other words you need 32-33 level build to be accurate, and 34 level build to be also mobile.
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: Aderyn on August 23, 2012, 07:56:11 pm
Longbow is alright after 170 wpf. In other words you need 32-33 level build to be accurate, and 34 level build to be also mobile.

lvl 30 18/21 gives you 165 wpf, that should be enough to be effective :|
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: Tydeus on August 23, 2012, 10:15:01 pm
I beleive that PS reduced the chance of glancing and the damage that glanced attacks do.

This is opposed to wpf's advantage in higher weapon speed.


So you have to be more precise with agility builds but it is easier to be precise. Extreme ath builds can put out really high dps due to speed bonuses but they dont work as reliably as you would think you have to be moving forward to get the most from them not by just spinning.
Myth, entirely. Glances and bounces are based on the final damage for the swing. PS indirectly affects the chance of glancing by multiplying your weapon damage by 8% per level and thus increasing the amount of damage you will most likely be dealing to opponents. If because of your opponents armor, you do 0 damage, you bounce. 1-2 damage, you glance without interrupting your opponent. 3-8(?) damage, you get the glance sound, but it still interrupts your opponent. (Not 100% on all of these numbers, but that's basically how they work).

To maximize a speed bonus you have to be moving with your opponent. So for horizontal swings, you don't want to be moving forward, you want to be moving left or right depending upon the swing direction you use. Furthermore, your opponents movement also plays into your speed bonus. Moving into someones swing always increasing the speed bonus of that hit. It's not a matter of simply moving forward or backpedaling.
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: Rhaelys on August 24, 2012, 05:22:28 am
What I got from Saul's hard work:

Strength builds are still super good, and even better if you can spare extra points into WM (After maxing Power Strike, Ironflesh, and Athletics).
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: dontgothere on October 28, 2012, 12:00:41 am
hey i kinda dont understand the math of this, sorry :(
can someone help me figure something out?

what's the difference in damage between 11 powerTHROW + 144 wpf VS 8 powerTHROW + 166 wpf?
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: OpenPalm on October 28, 2012, 12:22:15 am
Bow in fifth because it's that much worse than the rest
no sixth place or seventh place
Short bow in 8th, jesus god it's bad.

Bow is awesome if you're a hybrid archer/infantry.  Nice for getting that last shot in that you wouldn't have gotten with other bows before you switch to your melee and finish them off.

Also, the short bow is in 8th unless Jaich is using it... then it's #1.  :P
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: dreadnok on October 28, 2012, 04:54:47 am
The speed bonuses while moving around fast are deadly compared to being slow and swinging. Agi katanas are scary even with a lower ps
Title: Re: WPF and Damage
Post by: themethatuknow on November 09, 2012, 01:48:41 am
"Also, the short bow is in 8th unless Jaich is using it... then it's #1.  :P"


haha :D Short bow is 8th in effectiveness, but only 7th in classiness, and finally 1st in cuteness if plate armor is worn. :wink: