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Off Topic => Historical Discussion => Topic started by: Sultan Eren on August 16, 2012, 10:04:16 pm

Title: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Sultan Eren on August 16, 2012, 10:04:16 pm
I recenty heard that in the early times of Christianity it was forbidden to make profit. Now is it really true or just a rumour? If so what was the backstory? Have you ever heard something like this? I want some good Christians to help me for the puzzle i have been onto. Thanks.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: LordBerenger on August 16, 2012, 10:45:46 pm
I recenty heard that in the early times of Christianity it was forbidden to make profit. Now is it really true or just a rumour? If so what was the backstory? Have you ever heard something like this? I want some good Christians to help me for the puzzle i have been onto. Thanks.

Profit? How do you mean? You mean when borrowing out money to somebody else?
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Sultan Eren on August 16, 2012, 11:08:54 pm
rmbowman.com/catholic/econom2.htm
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Lamk on August 17, 2012, 06:20:54 am
They could not lent money to other people with a profit(interest) I think that is why the Jews were the first banker.
I'm not sure though
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Tibe on August 17, 2012, 06:31:02 am
I dont think its 100% correct thou. Ive read that The Knights Templar also practiced the early form of banking and money making which helped them form their order into a mighty force. And they exsisted somewhere around 12th century. And nobody really complained. Exept those who were in deep dept to the order ofcourse.

But yea, its totally correct about the jew thing thou. In theory really, the jews had the only religion that allowed them gain riches. Jews were also massively hated cause they very loudly announced that they were the only true people of the god.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Lamk on August 17, 2012, 07:13:33 am
Templars didn't lent money they just make the first kind of bank.You could go to a commandery in England and put your money in bank. They would give you a paper and you could use it around the world in the other commandery to get your money. It was to avoid stealing on the roads when people were travelling exemple to Jerusalem.

I'm still not sure
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Sultan Eren on August 17, 2012, 11:11:34 am
If somebody is profitting, then that means the other ones losing because there's a certain amount of money. I have read Quran twice and the Bible and i see the same "religion".

Quote
"The early Christians took these sayings very seriously. The first century Didache said, "Do not claim that anything is your own." Around the year 200, Clement of Alexandria said, "All possessions are by nature unrighteous; when one possesses them for personal advantage and does not bring them into the common stock for those in need." Basil the Great, about 400 A.D., said "That bread which you keep belongs to the hungry; that coat in your closet, to the naked." St. Augustine said, "Business is in itself an evil." Jerome, who disagreed with Augustine on many things, did not on this. He said, "A man who is a merchant can seldom if ever please God." St. John Chrysostom put it this way, "How did you become rich? Can you show the acquisition just? It cannot be. The root and origin of it must have been injustice."

That was also, what Proudhon said. Strange isn't it?
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Molly on August 17, 2012, 12:45:59 pm
Did you know that the guy who watches over the key of the holiest church of Christianity is a Muslim?

The certain streams in Christianity were always fighting about who should keep the key to the Church in Jerusalem. At some point they decided that they would need a neutral person to watch over it: a Muslim.

A nice example that there is a way to just live together w/o fighting.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: djavo on August 17, 2012, 03:00:20 pm
Maybe that was the case now the money is only religion.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Teeth on August 18, 2012, 10:09:53 am
Yep they couldn't charge interest , thats why lots o' Jews became moneylenders. Isn't usury a sin for muslims too? Still, some loopholes were used which allowed bankers to make a profit, like the Templars did.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: CtrlAltDe1337 on August 20, 2012, 08:47:19 am
In the Old Testament, the law forbids the Israelites to exact usury from their fellow Israelites (i.e. make loans with interest).

The Medieval Church applied this to all Christians, making the occupation of a banker a pretty poor choice for a career.  Oddly, the Jews (the ones the Law was actually given to) had no problem with it...lol.

And while usury was forbidden, some groups like the Knights Templar found loopholes.  Instead of charging interest, they would charge "rent payments" people who deposited money with them.  Pretty clever I guess.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Lange on August 20, 2012, 04:43:22 pm
In the Old Testament, the law forbids the Israelites to exact usury from their fellow Israelites (i.e. make loans with interest).

The Medieval Church applied this to all Christians, making the occupation of a banker a pretty poor choice for a career.  Oddly, the Jews (the ones the Law was actually given to) had no problem with it...lol.
Loaning to fellow jews was probably not necessary. Makes you wonder wether there were christian bankers for the jews... :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Joseph Porta on September 17, 2012, 03:30:08 pm
 I thought templols blackmailed the church with some hly-grail like thing, or is NG fucking with me?
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on September 20, 2012, 01:18:13 pm
I recenty heard that in the early times of Christianity it was forbidden to make profit. Now is it really true or just a rumour? If so what was the backstory? Have you ever heard something like this? I want some good Christians to help me for the puzzle i have been onto. Thanks.

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Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Overdriven on October 07, 2012, 05:00:28 pm
Yep they couldn't charge interest , thats why lots o' Jews became moneylenders. Isn't usury a sin for muslims too? Still, some loopholes were used which allowed bankers to make a profit, like the Templars did.

Yup they have Islamic banks in areas of high Muslim population in the UK because of this. Alternatively many Muslims just give the interest gained on their accounts to charity each time it gets put in their account.

A nice example that there is a way to just live together w/o fighting.

Odd thing is the Quran refers to people of the book (Muslims, Christians, Jews) as all people of the faith. It may be Christianity or Judaism but it follows the same lines so in the Quran there is 0 reason to fight amongst the religions. Muslim men can even marry Jewish or Christian women (not other way around because man is head of household and leads prayers ect). Naturally somewhere along the way we just screwed all of that up. Jesus, Moses ect are also all Islamic prophets as well. They just don't believe Jesus was the son of God ect.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Falka on October 11, 2012, 11:48:40 pm
I think that is why the Jews were the first banker.

And that's why christians hated jews so much   :wink:

I have read Quran twice and the Bible

Seems like you've wasted hell lot of time. I like fantasy books too, but Quran and Bible are rather... mediocre, at most. I would recommend you some other fantasy books. 
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Germanicus on October 13, 2012, 01:18:59 am
They could not lent money to other people with a profit(interest) I think that is why the Jews were the first banker.
I'm not sure though

i thought the first bankers were the templars?
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Latvian on October 13, 2012, 01:21:59 am
religion is a lie simple as that  bunch of made up people in every so called religion. Some people just want to belive in something and hope that god will save and help them instead of moving their ass and doing things for themselves
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Tibe on October 15, 2012, 06:52:23 am
religion is a lie simple as that  bunch of made up people in every so called religion. Some people just want to belive in something and hope that god will save and help them instead of moving their ass and doing things for themselves

Chuck Norris is a christian. Do you dare to say you know better than CHUCK NORRIS? If there was no God before him, than he freaking roundhousekicked us one.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: LordBerenger on October 15, 2012, 03:25:04 pm
Did you know that the guy who watches over the key of the holiest church of Christianity is a Muslim?

The certain streams in Christianity were always fighting about who should keep the key to the Church in Jerusalem. At some point they decided that they would need a neutral person to watch over it: a Muslim.

A nice example that there is a way to just live together w/o fighting.

Didn't know that. And youtubed it. There's a documentary about it. So cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCXNF2lxK2g
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: pepejul on October 15, 2012, 03:33:25 pm
What is Christianity for me : Mount Cashel Orphanage


http://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=video&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDcQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dnr6aJd4Kz_4&ei=dhB8UMXtHKmN0AWqo4HYBQ&usg=AFQjCNHxWbdznnoPQh7b6Yj-x8Zklf8Qkw


SOrry I m atheist and I think religions are dangerous.... all religions....
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: bredeus on October 16, 2012, 09:21:34 am
Well said Pepe.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Moncho on October 16, 2012, 10:20:49 am
just leaving this here:
(click to show/hide)
I do not know nor claim to know about God, if there is any (and if there is, why only one), or if there is not.
I am agnostic and, since there is nothing I can do unless she/he/they let me know, so I will live as if there is nothing after here. Just in case, you see, if there is something, I will welcome it, if there is not, well, I have at least not lived expecting that, and I will not know it anyway as I will be dead...
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: LordBerenger on October 16, 2012, 12:04:17 pm
just leaving this here:
(click to show/hide)
I do not know nor claim to know about God, if there is any (and if there is, why only one), or if there is not.
I am agnostic and, since there is nothing I can do unless she/he/they let me know, so I will live as if there is nothing after here. Just in case, you see, if there is something, I will welcome it, if there is not, well, I have at least not lived expecting that, and I will not know it anyway as I will be dead...

What if that said God find your lack in faith without having to prove itself foolish?.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Moncho on October 16, 2012, 12:31:27 pm
What if that said God find your lack in faith without having to prove itself foolish?.
In that case he is not worthy of being God. If he just set it up and got the machine going without taking part, how is this god any good at all?
And if he can take part, in which case I would like to know it, and it does not need to be much, just some sort of acknowledgment.

On the other hand, if there really is a God and he requires some sort of unconditional worship, usually people require it when they are not sure of themselves, but this God requires it... Then I think he might not be as perfect as we paint him, and if he is not, why bother calling him God?
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Taser on October 17, 2012, 09:47:32 am
In that case he is not worthy of being God. If he just set it up and got the machine going without taking part, how is this god any good at all?
And if he can take part, in which case I would like to know it, and it does not need to be much, just some sort of acknowledgment.

On the other hand, if there really is a God and he requires some sort of unconditional worship, usually people require it when they are not sure of themselves, but this God requires it... Then I think he might not be as perfect as we paint him, and if he is not, why bother calling him God?

Might like this quote then (which might be overused but its still good) by Marcus Aerelius.

 “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Moncho on October 17, 2012, 12:04:38 pm
Might like this quote then (which might be overused but its still good) by Marcus Aerelius.

 “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
Yeah, had seen it before, mostly what I was trying to say but with better wording :P
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Ad1no on November 28, 2012, 01:30:10 am
If somebody is profitting, then that means the other ones losing because there's a certain amount of money. I have read Quran twice and the Bible and i see the same "religion".

That was also, what Proudhon said. Strange isn't it?

You see the same religion?

Matthew 5:39   "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]."

...And in contrast we have:

Quran 9:5 "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Quran 9:14 "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

I think perhaps you need to re read those books you say you have. This is just an example of the many comparisons that could be made.

And as for so called Christians making profit:

John 2:16 "And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise." -Jesus

And here we have Paul talking about the end times and what I believe is a condemnation of the many profiting in name only Christians:

2 Peter 2:3 "And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not."

I would just like to say that it seems you are struggling with what book or religion to believe. I would suggest not looking at men as we are all corruptible and instead study what is being preached. I believe you will find as I have one book preach's love, forgiveness and hope while the other is death, revenge  and destruction.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Belatu on November 28, 2012, 02:00:36 am
It was forbiden the usury http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury  and it should be now

making money only with money should be penalized with jail in my opinion

and what the templars did was not banking as we think it now like loans . It was more a protection for moving the money, a kind of Western Union of the old ages.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Kafein on December 14, 2012, 06:31:36 pm
I believe that all religions are saying the truth. I also believe (literally) what is written in all sacred books. Even a one man religion I will believe. Just imagine what my world is like.

Ok this is just for actually religious people to think of the incoherence of their belief system.



Also, afaik all of the christian/jew/islam religions banned rent as a professional activity just as firmly as the other. But also, most of the laws did not forbid to do it with people of other religions. Hence why many jews became bankers in christian and muslim lands.




Ad1no : you know very well there are a lot of very violent stories and preachings in the bible. Or if you don't, well... Also some parts of Quran are in favour of open mindedness, almost free inquiry-ish at times, things which I don't see in the bible.

But whatever, those books are bullcrap anyway. Especially considering the staggering number of people today that still read them like a cooking recipe.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: pepejul on December 14, 2012, 10:19:28 pm
My words for all believers :

Every religions says : "God exists because the book (Torah, bible, quran..) is perfect because it comes from God"...

The book is full of mistakes...

so it doesn't come from God...

so God doesn't exists...

Thank you,

 bye...
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Belatu on December 14, 2012, 11:39:33 pm
fuck god
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Kirbyy on December 15, 2012, 05:53:10 am
Even though I'm an athiest (because many of us gloat about it like assholes), I believe that everyone should keep their mouth's shut in public about religion.  No one gives a shit, it pisses people off, don't talk about it!  It only causes problems.  If you're too arrogant to realize that, then fuck you!  Don't shove it in peoples' faces.  Just thought I'd add that for IRL situations!
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Taser on December 15, 2012, 08:51:42 am
Even though I'm an athiest (because many of us gloat about it like assholes), I believe that everyone should keep their mouth's shut in public about religion.  No one gives a shit, it pisses people off, don't talk about it!  It only causes problems.  If you're too arrogant to realize that, then fuck you!  Don't shove it in peoples' faces.  Just thought I'd add that for IRL situations!

There are two things in life you don't talk to other people about: Religion and Crpg.

Seriously though I have no problems talking to people about the fact I'm an atheist or that I disagree with their religion but I've only done that with some family and friends that wanted to talk about it. I never bring it up nor rub it in people's faces. There's no reason for it.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Sultan Eren on December 15, 2012, 11:47:51 pm
You don't believe? That's ok. But insult noone else.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: LordBerenger on December 15, 2012, 11:57:16 pm
Love the whole fact that Atheists just say ''if you believe in God keep it to your self''. Which i completely agree with because the relationship with God and yourself is a personal one that shouldn't be given to your wife/husband, children or strangers/friends by force.

But then they'll go on with the ''but ya know GOD DOESN'T EXIST LOLOLOLOL''

So much for keeping it to yourself eh?



Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Gravoth_iii on December 16, 2012, 03:52:29 pm
God is for the weakminded!  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Christo on December 16, 2012, 06:48:38 pm
Even though I'm an athiest (because many of us gloat about it like assholes), I believe that everyone should keep their mouth's shut in public about religion.  No one gives a shit, it pisses people off, don't talk about it!  It only causes problems.  If you're too arrogant to realize that, then fuck you!  Don't shove it in peoples' faces.  Just thought I'd add that for IRL situations!

Exactly.

Can't stand religious fanatism, and people shoving it down my throat.

Can't stand endless religion bashing by Atheists either.

Just shut up and move on, that's what I tell to those people.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Reyiz on January 31, 2013, 10:30:02 am
well I am not sure if God exists or not but all I know is that if your heart is clean and harmless to other people, you can go to heaven, if it exists too. If there is no heaven nor hell, you will be remebered as what you did in your life by the other people you left behind which satisfy me when i think about after life.

so I, as a muslim born, drink alcohol, have sex, smoke weed sometimes but try to avoid harming other people, lying, being asshole etc.

and I dont like to talk crap about religions and God in public neither  but we can discuss this subject while drinking :wink:
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: pepejul on January 31, 2013, 04:57:40 pm
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 :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: donib on January 31, 2013, 05:15:42 pm
Nice thread hijack, all he asked was for something within Christianity and people here came to openly express their blasphemy and call all the theist people stupid (indirectly you did). Well if you do that you aint yourself much better as the people who you oppose and accuse of shoving their religion down your throat.

so I, as a muslim born, drink alcohol, have sex, smoke weed sometimes but try to avoid harming other people, lying, being asshole etc.
Partially true, partially false. You were never muslim if you actually never believed in god and just inherited that title from your local culture. And islam =/= culture. Same goes for christianity and judaism.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Sultan Eren on January 31, 2013, 06:05:34 pm
Back to the topic:

(click to show/hide)

Opinions on this please.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Sultan Eren on January 31, 2013, 06:21:06 pm
You see the same religion?

Matthew 5:39   "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]."

...And in contrast we have:

Quran 9:5 "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Quran 9:14 "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

I think perhaps you need to re read those books you say you have. This is just an example of the many comparisons that could be made.

And as for so called Christians making profit:

John 2:16 "And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise." -Jesus

And here we have Paul talking about the end times and what I believe is a condemnation of the many profiting in name only Christians:

2 Peter 2:3 "And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not."

I would just like to say that it seems you are struggling with what book or religion to believe. I would suggest not looking at men as we are all corruptible and instead study what is being preached. I believe you will find as I have one book preach's love, forgiveness and hope while the other is death, revenge  and destruction.

Jesus -> Gandhi Way
Mohamad -> Che Way

"But they are communist fucks. How dare you compare propets to em?"
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on February 01, 2013, 01:02:42 pm
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Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Umbra on February 01, 2013, 01:09:45 pm
Love the whole fact that Atheists just say ''if you believe in God keep it to your self''. Which i completely agree with because the relationship with God and yourself is a personal one that shouldn't be given to your wife/husband, children or strangers/friends by force.

But then they'll go on with the ''but ya know GOD DOESN'T EXIST LOLOLOLOL''

So much for keeping it to yourself eh?

Common misconception. On the internet everyone is an asshole. In truth most people dont even bother with this topic irl, only the preachers, fundamentalists and hipster atheist assholes, which are still thankfully a minority. Atleast where i live
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Sultan Eren on February 02, 2013, 01:57:24 am
most common misconception is believing there are more than one religion.

god doesnt update his former religion. the main concept is always the same which is about the poor.

muslims today are nothing more than the ones they are critisizing, jews and christians.

until i see some logic in this thread i wont write any more.

now please continue on with the existance of god or my religion is better than you disscussions.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: pepejul on February 02, 2013, 10:17:39 am
God is a useless hypothesis to understand, explain and live in the World...


In the begining there qas no believers...then, ancient humans imagined a little god in each thing (animism for exemple)... later in history they believed in polytheism (god of sun, god of night, god of goats, god of kitties etc...)... later more they said : There one god above the little ones (Aegyptians)...and more later they call that monotheism (only one god but in fact 3 in chritianism : Father, Son and Monster spaghetti)...

The world doesn't change, humanity doesn't change... next century they will say another shit above omnipotent bearman above them with stupid laws to follow to be "in the mood" with him...

With no religion (I don't talk about spirituality but religion with rules to manage your own life) pple will be free and more happy because it will be the end of lies...

Sorry for bad english but your gods didn't give me the power of multilanguage... Is it the proff that It doesn't exist (It = God)
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Oberyn on February 02, 2013, 04:25:20 pm
Your agnostic viewpoint isn't anything new either, unfortunately it's kind of hard to have fanatics and passion for something as vague as spiritual anarchism. It's not exactly a banner to rally around. It's too individualistic. It's much easier to manipulate people and whip them into a frenzy by "othering" those who do not believe exactly as they do. Humanity doesn't change, yeah, which is why the agnostic viewpoint will always be a minority.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Tigero on February 06, 2013, 08:39:17 pm
Just because the Bible has the word 'Creationism' means it's bullshit, and don't try to justify that by saying it's a godly interpretation of the way people thinked about everything. Since then the 'word of God' has been manipulated to fit a bit more intelligent humans but still there's enough those who don't get the point of evolution and other facts (They haven't watched enough good Youtube videos :D ) to keep religions alive.

I guess it's good for some to live in false hope and do good because you fear to go to Hell and not because what good it causes to others and brings to you but religions still have made more suffering than happiness...

And this is getting real OT but that's how religion debates go  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: donib on February 06, 2013, 10:04:57 pm
Well that comes from a lack of knowledge, imo, you just hear the world bible and it is already bs for you.

Very simpel said: Muhammad saws was the final prophet, he got revelation from God, not in one instance but over a course of ca 20 years. How do i know this? That is history, there are reports, sources, people, witnesses. And all say, Muhammad was indeed a prophet of God, if you have a problem with this, bring your proof he was not a prophet and what he preached was falsehood. However no one today has managed to do this yet. The Quran revelations were always revealed during important events or moments, not just randomly.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on February 07, 2013, 02:53:29 pm
Well that comes from a lack of knowledge, imo, you just hear the world bible and it is already bs for you.

Very simpel said: Muhammad saws was the final prophet, he got revelation from God, not in one instance but over a course of ca 20 years. How do i know this? That is history, there are reports, sources, people, witnesses. And all say, Muhammad was indeed a prophet of God, if you have a problem with this, bring your proof he was not a prophet and what he preached was falsehood. However no one today has managed to do this yet. The Quran revelations were always revealed during important events or moments, not just randomly.

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prophets, revelations from gods, "reports, sources, people, witnesses"... omg... just stop...

Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: donib on February 07, 2013, 03:06:42 pm
And there is the fundamental problem
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Umbra on February 07, 2013, 03:11:04 pm
Yes, your ignorance is fundemental.

God created the universe then out of billions of plantes chose ours, then waited millions of years, and then revealed his secret to an iliterate peasent.

Totally legit
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: donib on February 07, 2013, 03:14:30 pm
So much personifications to the concept of God, suit yourself, i didnt come to preach my religion here, everyone has his own right to choose his own religion/way of life. Like the Quran says:

109:6
"lakum dinukum waliyadin"

To you your religion, to me mine.

Ps:

dont expect me to come back to this, i dont want this discussion.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: pepejul on February 07, 2013, 03:15:49 pm
Quran says "hills are on earth by godwill to avoid it to cramble"... lol... Seisms are ESPECIALLY in mountains... Quran is full of bullshit (like bible)...end of story.... No divine book =no god = no prophet = no religion...

Problem solved
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Oberyn on February 07, 2013, 04:00:51 pm
I find it particularly hilarious when religious people look at their holy books and pretend they discovered truths about the world long before science. I've seen interpretations of the bible and the quran so ridiculously dishonest, suggesting those who wrote them had knowledge of advanced biology/genetics or astronomy or mathematics and that all science did was confirm their wisdom. Look at shitty propaganda sites like this one for example http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/index.php
Arabs at the time of Mohammed were, let's be honest, a shitty backward culture compared to literally every other culture surrounding them, the Egyptians, the Persians, the Byzantines, the Levantines who all had libraries, universities, philosophers compared to...what, in the Arab peninsula? Tribal clan chiefs and polytheistic religious orders recently conquered by another tribal clan chief that happened to have a monotheistic religion. The Islamic Golden Age happened because all those advanced cultures that had been around for centuries got melded into one (very briefly) and that allowed more sharing of knowledge. The great centers of Islamic knowledge were centered on Egypt, Persia, Baghdad, Andalusia, Northern India and many others, never in the Arabian peninsula. And the decline of scientific advancement in the Islamic regions can arguably be linked to philosophical choices like deciding that all truth was supposed to be derived from the Quran, as opposed to a much more free-form curiosity only tangentially linked to God and religion that allowed all of the progress to be made.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Overdriven on February 07, 2013, 05:15:17 pm
I think the point with the Quran and scientific notions is more that they followed the Quran as a religious text sent to Mohammed by God and only later it was found that there was some scientific backing for a lot of the rules. For instance, not eating swine. Arguably, scientifically, that can be because pigs eat all sorts of crap, leading to build up of harmful substances in their bodies and thus when you consume it, it is passed on to us. Something that is now taught in all high school biology with any animal in relation to fertilisers ect.

It depends what view you take. Were they aware of this at the time? Or is some higher power just telling them not to eat it and Muslims don't know why but they don't because it tells you not to.

Regardless I've read the majority of the Quran and in relation to the bible it's a lot more sensible and logical and to the point. I also believe it to be incredibly applicable to all cultures and I will always maintain that the problem arises with the creation of the Hadith which have entirely skewed large amounts of Islamic thinking and apply rules and regulations which don't even arise in the Quran. I suggest people read up on the Hadith as many Muslims follow that more than they do the Quran, wrongly so.

As to Pepe...I was doing some reading about that particular point in the Quran. Mountains as stabilisers between the Earth's plates. It's quite amusing to see two views at extreme opposites:
Pro: http://www.quranandscience.com/earth/231-the-mountains-as-stabilizers-for-the-earth.html

Against: http://www.islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=229:mountains-are-extraterrestrial-the-quran&catid=68:mumin&Itemid=58
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Tigero on February 07, 2013, 05:30:29 pm
Like the Quran says:

9:11
Airhalamplanah, shush shush, Allahu Akbar!, balamboom balabim.


Btw. this video (and the other prank calls, like Heimskr calls christian hotline) is actually really funny and ironic...  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: pepejul on February 07, 2013, 06:30:14 pm

As to Pepe...I was doing some reading about that particular point in the Quran. Mountains as stabilisers between the Earth's plates. It's quite amusing to see two views at extreme opposites:
Pro: http://www.quranandscience.com/earth/231-the-mountains-as-stabilizers-for-the-earth.html

Against: http://www.islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=229:mountains-are-extraterrestrial-the-quran&catid=68:mumin&Itemid=58

LOL.... first link is funny...
just look at this :

sismic location
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mountains location :
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Who can really know that ? "Muhammad (pbuh) is His final Messenger. In an authentic saying, this noble profit is quoted to have said that: “When Allah created the Earth it started to shake and jerk, then Allah stabilized it by the mountains”.

Holy book are just books... no holy...
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Overdriven on February 07, 2013, 06:39:48 pm
Pepe the first link doesn't deny that areas with mountains created between two plates are high in seismic activity. Quite the opposite. You'd be daft to claim anything other than that. The claim is instead to do with continental drift. They are claiming that the deep roots of the mountains (Ok I can kind of go with that), stabilise the shift of the continents. As in, early Earth saw massive movement over millions and millions of years, from Pangaea to how they are now. The mountains, they particularly point to that of the subcontinent and the Himalayas serve to help reduce the shift that early Earth was subjected to.

Now I haven't had time to go over any of that properly (Dwarf fortress lol) but I'm simply saying stop pointing out seismic activity as proof against what they are saying  :P

Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Oberyn on February 07, 2013, 09:01:41 pm
No, it's religious babble interpreted as godsent scientific knowledge. Sorry. Considering that pigs and their various relatives have been a mainstay of many different civilization's herds, even that "knowledge" is more cultural than scientific. There's various studies showing that wheat products are not beneficient to a human's diet. You know, knowledge we got through disciplines like biology and nutritionists. The same scientific work that confirmed (cough) that pork could be bad for you. I guess Allah decided to skip that one. Maybe cause pigs are objectively disgusting creatures and wheat was used since, oh, the beginning of agriculture. It was always more a matter of symbolism than any sort of scientific thought behind it.
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: pepejul on February 07, 2013, 11:18:17 pm
to overdriven : no no no no no... in medio oceanic mountains (volcanic ) there is no deep root... and it is very sismic. Religion is like a black screen in front of eyes... you cannot see the real with religioned'mind...

to Oberyn : Porc is so similar with human (bald skin, omnivor etc..) that is why he's hated in many cultures.... it is like the "human beast"...

once again the fear about unknown things made creating religion mind (wow I think it is pure frenglaish  :mrgreen: I feel it)... religion is just the black part of our knowledge.... increase knowledge and religion will fail....
Title: Re: Profit in Christianity
Post by: Penitent on February 07, 2013, 11:32:16 pm
Tearful
Sorrowful day
When rising from the ashes
Guilty man for judgment.

Therefore spare him, Lord
Merciful Jesus
Grant them eternal rest.


-Mozart's Lacrimosa