I my self play cav and I like a challenge
Dude what.
Be the change you want to see in the mod, bro. If you don't like the amount of ranged and cav, don't play ranged or cav, and encourage others to follow you. That's really all you can do.
Dude what.
Be the change you want to see in the mod, bro. If you don't like the amount of ranged and cav, don't play ranged or cav, and encourage others to follow you. That's really all you can do.
Only solution: Blanket Ban EU.
Come play siege, no cav and not that much ranged.
Only solution: Blanket Ban EU.
Seriously what has cRPG become now? just a cav and ranged feast everyone seems to be cav or ranged. what little inf there is now just seems to mop up the idiots or de-horsed, I know cRPG has seen more then its fair share of OP classes and crazy nerfs but this is just beyond madness, Battle now is no fun if I'm not shot down in seconds I'm being chased by 4-5 enemy cav. Although I my self play cav and I like a challenge but its so god dam boring that every map I see the last alive are always cav and ranged. What happened to the times when the last alive would be a few infantry with 1/4 HP left and the few alive would display a good show of skill and footwork?! Now 50% of the time its either some archers shooting 1 inf or a bunch of cav raping some half dead guy.
Personally this is killing my interest in cRPG I didn't join this community or mod to be ranged and cav spammed I joined it because the player skill level was higher in melee I could play my favorite class but also be challenged by everyother class at the same time. As unbalanced as cRPG can be its way more balanced then native but right now even natives unbalanced factions ranged classes seem more balanced then cRPGs!
I don't normally look in the balance section of the forum because I normally think "I don't know to much about balancing Ill leave it to the guys who do" and to be honest so every earlier version even going back to the peasant wars and the AOE of XP and gold was better then this version of cRPG. As unbalanced as it was then at least it was fun to play now its just frustrating and boring I rarely see a good fight between two inf anymore on battle, and yes I know duels are for EU_3 but I remember the time when the two last alive had some bad ass duels and it would last for what seemed forever. Now I get to watch some archers shoot a 2her so he becomes a pincushion.
To be honest I think that with all this cav and ranged spam its making the inf have a harder time and the people who are genuinely good at ranged or cav are being shooed out of the picture because there's so many other in their class they cant do as well. Maybe its just me but I seriously think that if this carries on then I might actually prefer Native to cRPG and I really don't want that. Iv seen amazing clans and people on here like fallen, SoA, Merc's, GK's, bandits, HRE, Nords.....Hell even the greys! But sadly I don't enjoy fighting against these clans members or beside them anymore as I'm either lanced or shot before I meet them on the field.
Most of you will probably think "pfft dis guy QQing about ranged and cav what a noob" sure you can call it QQing or whining or whatever you want my love for this game is slowly dying and Im really gutted that its happening because of 2 classes being spammed.
and for those of you who are going to hate, I'm a GK iv been playing cav since gen 1 and I have an alt for every class (apart from HA they suck!) and I'm a GK Its my Job to make you rage and hate.
Surprisingly true. Would think ranged would like siege more.
Because they cant grief players in siege thx to the respawn timer.
Also there is no web site kdr whoring plus you respawn so archers aren't looked upon as a serious threat like eu 1 fx.
And to the OP most of the guys who play melee have skipped the battle server cause lets be honest high lvl archery just makes you puke... :lol:
I believe all problems stem from the Courser and the Arabian.I don't try much anymore to look for horses because it's just draining always having to be looking behind and to the side. So basically if it's a slower horse I might possibly hear it in time to turn around but if it's a courser I'm dead. By the time you hear it it's too late. Anyway I think that's just one of the reasons people go archer. Another is melee takes a lot of energy and many players can block well so it's just easier to bypass melee and go ranged. Also....melee can get a bit boring and repetitive after a while too (be really good to have more moves/abilities).
Remove those two from the game and you'll see a lot of stuff fall back into line because everything that happens with infantry and ranged is a reaction to loomed coursers and arabians (mostly coursers).
After your 25th time being lanced in the back by a horse that's so fast you had no chance to hear it coming, you start thinking about things like spears.
After your 25th time being lanced in the back by a horse that's so fast you had no chance to hear it coming while trying to stab some other horse that simply stayed out of range of your spear, you start thinking about things like ranged.
So you either give up entirely and pick up a bow so you can hide in a tower and shoot horses or else you at least pick up power throw 4 so you can throw axes at horses, which I can tell you is WAY more effective than trying to spear them (good cav easily avoid spears but avoiding throwing means staying 50 meters away at all times).
The people who toughed it out and stayed infantry are now being shot and axed to death by ranged attacks that were originally picked up to be used on horses. When there's no horses around, you use it on infantry instead. These remaining infantry, tired of being peppered by ranged, will either go cav or ranged. (They may briefly try shield only to realize it leaves them nearly defenseless against cav.)
I think if the best horse was the Destrier, you wouldn't see this cascade of failure occur because destriers aren't so awesome-fast or awesome-maneuverable to just make infantry give up.
The refusal to nerf coursers and arabians means this mod can never really find a balance.
At fifteen, I had the will to learn ; at thirty, I could stand ; at forty, I had no doubts ; at fifty, I understood the heavenly Bidding ; at sixty, my ears were opened ; at seventy, I could do as my heart lusted without trespassing from the square.
Seriously what has cRPG become now? just a cav feast everyone seems to be cav.
Battle now is no fun I'm being chased by 4-5 enemy cav.
50% of the time its a bunch of cav raping some half dead guy.
Personally this is killing my interest in cRPG I didn't join this community or mod to be cav spammed
sadly I don't enjoy fighting against these clans members or beside them anymore as I'm lanced before I meet them on the field.
I'm a GK iv been playing cav since gen 1 and I have an alt for every class (apart from HA they suck!) and I'm a GK Its my Job to make you rage and hate.
Go hoplite. Ranged and cav can't touch you.Royanss raped me as 1h cav when I was hoplite. :oops:
Dude what.
Be the change you want to see in the mod, bro. If you don't like the amount of ranged and cav, don't play ranged or cav, and encourage others to follow you. That's really all you can do.
You should wait until they implement speed bonus for HA/HT/HX and then come back to qq.Can't fucking wait, gonna be awesome being able to kill 4 other cavalry a round.
I still manage fine.
But dodging arrows and horses requires more concentration than what I'm usually willing to give this game. I play to relax, and usually it's closer to work just to reach the melee. It's why I don't play as much on battle anymore, or the game in general.
Then again, I usually run around alone without any consideration for teamwork.
All these problems have a solution (and I know I'll have some "-" from heroes :wink:):
1) Slow down archers when they're holding left mouse button. Kiting archers - problem solved.
2) Make high WPF restrictions for reloading Heavy Crossbow and Arbalest. Everyone can use them still but not reload. Hybrid crossbowmen with 100+ melee wpf and 1 wpf arbalest users - problem solved.
3) Make ranged block-stun a little bit bigger. So you don't need to come at point blank to stun them. Kiting and jumping pointblank archers and crossbowmen - problem solved.
4) Make maneuver penalties for holding an attack button for cavalry. Horse Crossbowmen and Horse Archers won't be able to ride like bosses without hands (it won't be a nerf since HA, HC and HT will have a serious damage buff next patch due to speed bonus). Problem solved.
5) Nerf Destrier. It's the best horse currently for its price. Probably armour and health points should go less. Destrier invasion - problem solved.
Honestly if people like playing a class, there's nothing to do about. You can't limit a class if people like playing them.
All these problems have a solution (and I know I'll have some "-" from heroes :wink:):
1) Slow down archers when they're holding left mouse button. Kiting archers - problem solved. -Will basically just make archers like crossbowmen with higher requirements, and like a lot of xbowies they'll still kite, just run longer before reloading...
2) Make high WPF restrictions for reloading Heavy Crossbow and Arbalest. Everyone can use them still but not reload. Hybrid crossbowmen with 100+ melee wpf and 1 wpf arbalest users - problem solved.
3) Make ranged block-stun a little bit bigger. So you don't need to come at point blank to stun them. Kiting and jumping pointblank archers and crossbowmen - problem solved.
4) Make maneuver penalties for holding an attack button for cavalry. Horse Crossbowmen and Horse Archers won't be able to ride like bosses without hands (it won't be a nerf since HA, HC and HT will have a serious damage buff next patch due to speed bonus). Problem solved. -So, what you're saying is that HAs should just play stationary and that the very fun of being horseranged totally isn't that you can maneuver like shit, moving around while dodging arrows and lancers, getting into good spots while dodging and shooting, that kinda shit, so, basically you wanna make horseranged be like ground ranged except faster and weaker and less dodgeable.
5) Nerf Destrier. It's the best horse currently for its price. Probably armour and health points should go less. Destrier invasion - problem solved. -I can't believe so many people are hating on coursers and arabians when they get onehit and barely deal bump damage, destriers can last several bolts, arrows, and hits and their bumps 1 hit light armored players at high speeds.
Only reason why I would like an archery nerf is because I'm curious to see what's next on the menu.
I all ready knew this would happen the day they gave peirce dmg on bodkins touche devs are promoting skill less classes like archery pray n spray n run...
Cav on the other hand is fine if you ask me you cant buff people´s awareness with any patch..
cRPG has hardened.. that's the problem. Also it's slowly dripping in fewer and fewer noobs to prey on, and there are mostly old-timers left.
Back in the day, skill levels were much more varied than now, where good players could play like they wanted with any strange or gimped build, and still do well.
Now, to do well, mediocre players are playing more and more cynical builds, like lame-playing cav and high level+high loom archery. Also, everyone seems to have looms. These are builds and playstyles players used to shun away from, but now it's becoming a way to survive and get some kills. Same with STR builds and long ass weapons with tons of armor.
The skill levels are so equalized that gear and build matters much more than before.
For c-rpg to be fun again, I'd say we need a vision of what kind of game we want. Personally I'd love to see cav and ranged nerfed hard, since getting kills are too easy with these classes and it's boring to die to them.
Agree with Zlisch here. HA is all about maneuver, shooting arrows at high speed and dodging other cav and infantry. Do not nerf them in any way!Besides shooting at high speeds if your target ain't 100% stationary and infront of you is much harder than hiding in a ruin somewhere on the map with an xbow standing stationary and being A LOT better protected from other cav/ranged/infantry/players in general than HA are with their maneuver.
You are mentioning something relevant, but I don't think nerfing cav and ranged is the magical answer to everything.
Kills are easy with cav, not with archery. I thought this was known by now.
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Rus Bows + Bodkins do much more damage than most melee weapons, and handle like rapid fire arbalests. It actually requires less skill to do well with a Rus Bow than as a cavalry lancer, even though you will probably get more kills with the lance. But at least lancers have to pretend to endanger themselves to get kills by getting close to melee, ranged, and other cav.
Rus Bows can stand across the map and 2 shot people in 60 body armor within 3 seconds and repeat forever, running away from any threat practically as fast as a horse. Its awful and one of the worst parts of cRPG.
theskeletonsarrows, they rape you in 3 seconds
Besides shooting at high speeds if your target ain't 100% stationary and infront of you is much harder than hiding in a ruin somewhere on the map with an xbow standing stationary and being A LOT better protected from other cav/ranged/infantry/players in general than HA are with their maneuver.
Me neither. We had enough nerfs.Buffing one class is effectively nerfing all others.
Horse Archery is rather annoying than effective. Disagree here too, it all depends on the riders skill, really. And I propose to do it effective, so they can have kills. After the patch they will have a significant damage boost. And with that I'd suggest a maneuver nerf while attacking. It's not like you can't control the horse at all, it's just like it's hard to control it. I'm often surrounded by 6+ enemy cav, with my current maneuver (unloomed arabian warhorse) I can (depending who I'm up against) often get 2 kills by outriding them, maneuvering around their attacks and horses and throwing when I have an opportunity to hit and still dodge the next wave of lancers, shit just ain't as fun when you can't move around. TBH this thing doesn't even nerf me that bad as readying your weapon as a thrower barely takes any time, but it's a heavy nerf to HA and HX, and the end result will be more HAs playing the extremely my old friendgy way, W keying away as far as they can 'cuss dodging and playing skillfully is impossible, and to compensate for the heavy distance they make while my old friendging out they'd purely aim for my horse, which is even gayer, also, even with the damage boost (seeing as 90% of all horserangeds only style is S keying out of danger while shooting at their targets this'd actually be more of a nerf to them, the noskill my old friends, the good players will be buffed but eh, you say bellow you want good players to shine and suckers to bleed, this'll neutralize suckers.
Isn't it better to deal more damage than to avoid more damage? Depends on the amounts, but nerfing maneuver does not make for more skilled cavalry, just like nerfing the lance angle doesn't make lancing more skill requiring. It will require more skill and more battle awareness from HA/HC/HT players as it should be. So, you support removing ruins from battlefields and having all players be REACHABLE for cavalry? I don't want to see low-skilled delayers on horses These guys will possibly perform WORSE with more maneuver due to sucking hard, I want to see professionals who kill. HA tend to bump rather than shoot these days, and it's pathetic. The one point of your previous post I supported was a heavy nerf of bumping damage, every time I get a bump kill I feel like GTXting.
Miwiw you're now officially a supporter of Zlisch' remove ruins from battle campaign, removing the 1+ will not remove your status as a supporter.
But hopefully you mean a cap of 1? 1AH, 1 PS, 1 IF if you are in a group?
What does cav, crossbowmen, archers give? Nothing. How fair...
Buffing one class is effectively nerfing all others.
Rus Bows + Bodkins do much more damage than most melee weapons, and handle like rapid fire arbalests. It actually requires less skill to do well with a Rus Bow than as a cavalry lancer, even though you will probably get more kills with the lance. But at least lancers have to pretend to endanger themselves to get kills by getting close to melee, ranged, and other cav.
Rus Bows can stand across the map and 2 shot people in 60 body armor within 3 seconds and repeat forever, running away from any threat practically as fast as a horse. Its awful and one of the worst parts of cRPG.
Miwiw you're now officially a supporter of Zlisch' remove ruins from battle campaign, removing the 1+ will not remove your status as a supporter.
Right, it's stand around a corner with a crushtrough weapon and spam merily away. TKs and teamhits and die? No worries, just respawn. Sooo hard.you really can't whine about siege after all you are agi 1h cav
Almost never play my main anymore, since its just frustrating being infantry. Much rather chill back with my ranged char, shoot other ranged all round, stay alive all round, then MAYBE have a decent melee fight at the end of the round.What's the name of your ranged character? I've suspected this for a while. You've hidden your secret ranged desires from the public well :D
you really can't whine about siege after all you are agi 1h cav
after all what is bad in that if peps like to play there?
bundle of sticks weapons.
You think I only have one character? I've been playing siege quite a lot lately. And I have nothing against people playing there. Just find it funny that some classify it as the last free place on crpg or some shit like that. You can't escape from broken builds and bundle of sticks weapons.
lol, EU1 is like the only place in crpg hat has heavy ranged. NA has about only a third of the archers EU does.Maybe he was talking about broken weapons and not fucking ranged?
You think I only have one character? I've been playing siege quite a lot lately. And I have nothing against people playing there. Just find it funny that some classify it as the last free place on crpg or some shit like that. You can't escape from broken builds and bundle of sticks weapons.yea thats true
Dildo lance?:lol:
Only solution: Blanket Ban EU.
Would it be possible to make ingame gold dependent on class? Sort of make it a supply/demand thing. If we were to say that 20% cav, 20% range and 60% infantry was the perfect mix, if there was a game with that mix everyone would get 100% gold per round. But if it were 35% cav, 25% range and 40% inf, cav would get paid 57% gold, range would get 80% and infantry would get paid 150% gold.
That way if a class is over represented, people could switch to alts to make better money and it would keep the game balanced.
Then maybe you should have asked for a rus bow nerf, not doom the all class because a certain build might be op.
I guarantee 1 way to reduce archers dramatically. Increase the prices (and thus upkeep) of bows and arrows. Longbow is 777 gold to repair if I remember. Think about what it can do though (kill tincans). The 'value' of it is very high yet not so much in cost. Same with bodkins. Typical plated guy wearing around 45,000 gold worth of gear (not including weapon). Typical longbowman is around 21,000 gold (including bow) or so. Double archery costs and watch more players use weaker bows and regular arrows or switch to other classes.
Yeah but bodkins break frequently.
oh, this thread again.
So saying "nerf this bow" is really saying "nerf about half the archers out there". Ironically I thought that it was the 'run n gun' archers ie hornbow archers everyone was worried about?
However, the game will balance itself. If too many play the same class you play, they will all be less efficient because of it.
Not true, not by a long shot. The metagame is way more complex.I feel that I should inform you that range has had almost nothing but soft (and hard) nerfs for as long as I remember, how about we simply buff infantry, and make top-level armor even better against range, as well as buffing shields against it? Every major patch had an archery nerf in it (besides the highly questionable patch that nerfed limb damage completely and buffed range head-shot damage... Range never needed that headshot buff.. But even then that patch had a major nerf in it).
I'll have to contradict myself.. Nerfing cav and ranged would lead to too many people quitting. Characters are 33+ all loomed up. People will rage hard, and c-rpg might loose too many players.
I still believe that buffs and nerfs are the way to go, it has worked in the past and will work in the future.
Let me put it like this:
* Give soft nerfs to cav and ranged.
* Buff infantry a bit more than soft.
We should see players changing classes then.
Seriously what has cRPG become now? just a cav and ranged feast everyone seems to be cav or ranged. what little inf there is now just seems to mop up the idiots or de-horsed, I know cRPG has seen more then its fair share of OP classes and crazy nerfs but this is just beyond madness, Battle now is no fun if I'm not shot down in seconds I'm being chased by 4-5 enemy cav. Although I my self play cav and I like a challenge but its so god dam boring that every map I see the last alive are always cav and ranged. What happened to the times when the last alive would be a few infantry with 1/4 HP left and the few alive would display a good show of skill and footwork?! Now 50% of the time its either some archers shooting 1 inf or a bunch of cav raping some half dead guy.
Personally this is killing my interest in cRPG I didn't join this community or mod to be ranged and cav spammed I joined it because the player skill level was higher in melee I could play my favorite class but also be challenged by everyother class at the same time. As unbalanced as cRPG can be its way more balanced then native but right now even natives unbalanced factions ranged classes seem more balanced then cRPGs!
I don't normally look in the balance section of the forum because I normally think "I don't know to much about balancing Ill leave it to the guys who do" and to be honest so every earlier version even going back to the peasant wars and the AOE of XP and gold was better then this version of cRPG. As unbalanced as it was then at least it was fun to play now its just frustrating and boring I rarely see a good fight between two inf anymore on battle, and yes I know duels are for EU_3 but I remember the time when the two last alive had some bad ass duels and it would last for what seemed forever. Now I get to watch some archers shoot a 2her so he becomes a pincushion.
To be honest I think that with all this cav and ranged spam its making the inf have a harder time and the people who are genuinely good at ranged or cav are being shooed out of the picture because there's so many other in their class they cant do as well. Maybe its just me but I seriously think that if this carries on then I might actually prefer Native to cRPG and I really don't want that. Iv seen amazing clans and people on here like fallen, SoA, Merc's, GK's, bandits, HRE, Nords.....Hell even the greys! But sadly I don't enjoy fighting against these clans members or beside them anymore as I'm either lanced or shot before I meet them on the field.
Most of you will probably think "pfft dis guy QQing about ranged and cav what a noob" sure you can call it QQing or whining or whatever you want my love for this game is slowly dying and Im really gutted that its happening because of 2 classes being spammed.
and for those of you who are going to hate, I'm a GK iv been playing cav since gen 1 and I have an alt for every class (apart from HA they suck!) and I'm a GK Its my Job to make you rage and hate.
I feel that I should inform you that range has had almost nothing but soft (and hard) nerfs for as long as I remember, how about we simply buff infantry, and make top-level armor even better against range, as well as buffing shields against it? Every major patch had an archery nerf in it (besides the highly questionable patch that nerfed limb damage completely and buffed range head-shot damage... Range never needed that headshot buff).
There is no fixing this besides the complete and utter removal of any and all range.- No, amount of ranged matters greatly. A little is good, too much is bad. It's all shades of Grey. :P
Call me when the devs are ready to fix archery.
You don't have to inform me of that.. I've been here since the start and have been fighting for archer nerfs a lot! :D (well, has to be said archers, it has been much, much, much too powerful in the past..)
And btw.. The archery nerfs have almost never been because they have been considered too powerful. Always because there have been to many of them!
I think its high time something gets done now.
There is a critical amount of ranged that makes the game less fun for infantry. This threshold has been reached.. But cav is also a big, if not bigger part of the lameness. Both 1h and lancers have awesome 1shotting power that should be dealt with..
I feel that I should inform you that range has had almost nothing but soft (and hard) nerfs for as long as I remember, how about we simply buff infantry, and make top-level armor even better against range, as well as buffing shields against it? Every major patch had an archery nerf in it (besides the highly questionable patch that nerfed limb damage completely and buffed range head-shot damage... Range never needed that headshot buff.. But even then that patch had a major nerf in it).
With the "damage dealt" statistic released long ago, it showed for both NA and EU that the damage dealt by archery, throwing and crossbows were significantly less (archery was about 8% iirc) then melee, though I should also point out polearms were about 30% damage (probably due lances tbh, though that is pure speculation of course).
The problem is not range being too prevalent, it is simply range existing.
Range makes players rage. It is a useful mechanic for breaking up massive melee fights and creating more of a dynamic battlefield as well as being a core mechanic of M&B, but it also creates rage in players if they die. A player can die only once every six deaths from range and they will rage, they can be shot only every other match and they will rage, it is simply because it denies them a small amount of "control" that they are used to and thus will make them rage.
There is no fixing this besides the complete and utter removal of any and all range.
Quoting myself again due to heavy additions through editing. There is simply no appeasing the masses. Archery needs to kill via skill not luck, yet players want such ludicrous things such as making archers more innacurate (which is amusing considering how hard it is to make an accurate archer build). Crossbows are a whole other matter though, but similar problems arise in that too.
Just remove range, honestly. Archery, Crossbows and Throwing.
No player likes accepting that in some situations some things will be natural counters to how they choose to build their classes (Hence why we see a lot of extremist build players complaining about things). No player likes being shot in a melee-focused game.
ranged and cavalry are the only things that keep a game sense element of skill to the game as an infantry player.
remove them and invite the noob fest.
People should have to become more skilled at the game, the game should not work around people's lack of skill. that has always been crpg's failing.
thomek, perhaps you die to ranged so much because you do absolutely nothing to counter it.
thomek, perhaps you die to ranged so much because you do absolutely nothing to counter it.i agree, lets balance the game around your build
On my light armour 1h / spear char i regularly get awesome kdrs just by hunting archers, because i actually bloody counter archers and cav, rather than just go 2h hero and expect to chamber arrows etc. I have 4 shield skill and a low tier shield (unheirloomed) and i rarely EVER get shot (ever, ever, ever). Is it the game's fault that you cba putting 2 skill in to shield ? should the game have to change because you cannot think ?
If you nerf archers further i think it will just be a joke quite how pathetically easy archers will be to kill for builds like mine. It's already like hunting turkeys in a cage, nerf them even more and i'll be able to play sleeping.
i agree, lets balance the game around your build
truth be told, i think range needs a buff
@Tears
I'm not talking removal here.. Just decimate their numbers a few times. About half would be OK.
Also come to EU more often. I heard NA is paradise compared to it.
what if i dont find gaying people with a fucking hoplite build and just zerging everyone down fun?
what if i like to actually challenge myself and play agaisnt 1v2, 1v3, 1v4?
nah bro i just get shot
what if i dont find gaying people with a fucking hoplite build and just zerging everyone down fun?
what if i like to actually challenge myself and play agaisnt 1v2, 1v3, 1v4?
nah bro i just get shot
I even hunt range, and have tools to deal with them. (*mw snowflakes) Just ask any top EU archer, i.ex blackbow if he feels safe when I'm on.. Just that..
how about, take a shield, with 2 shield skill, when you're withing ~5 feet of an archer put it away.i played with 3 shield skill for a longgg time
I mean i'm no genius but ... i think a retard with a notebook could figure that one out.
i played with 3 shield skill for a longgg time
and then i tried to play without and realized i was a retard all this time for using a shield
even if you NEVER got shot through your shield it'd still be worthless because they just run away when you get close, can't win if you can't hit them.
hell i GTX off of 1h because i would get shot regardless of 5 shield skill, wtf is the point?
if i just ran from every melee fight and just 100% hunted archers i guess id get shot less but that doesnt sound very fun and challenging
I feel that I should inform you that range has had almost nothing but soft (and hard) nerfs for as long as I remember, how about we simply buff infantry, and make top-level armor even better against range, as well as buffing shields against it? Every major patch had an archery nerf in it (besides the highly questionable patch that nerfed limb damage completely and buffed range head-shot damage... Range never needed that headshot buff.. But even then that patch had a major nerf in it).
With the "damage dealt" statistic released long ago, it showed for both NA and EU that the damage dealt by archery, throwing and crossbows were significantly less (archery was about 8% iirc) then melee, though I should also point out polearms were about 30% damage (probably due lances tbh, though that is pure speculation of course).
The problem is not range being too prevalent, it is simply range existing.
Range makes players rage. It is a useful mechanic for breaking up massive melee fights and creating more of a dynamic battlefield as well as being a core mechanic of M&B, but it also creates rage in players if they die. A player can die only once every six deaths from range and they will rage, they can be shot only every other match and they will rage, it is simply because it denies them a small amount of "control" that they are used to and thus will make them rage.
There is no fixing this besides the complete and utter removal of any and all range.
All my pluses.
The sense of entitlement of some players is incredible. They complain if ranged dares to shoot at them when they are in the open with no regard for cover, and they even lose some health to two arrows!
It used to be madness to take the melee into a position where enemy archers had a good position to shoot into. Now people run right into any situation, and maybe a few players get killed by archers and some get stunned and killed by enemy melee. And that's the worst case that can happen. Still that's more than enough to make people rage.
The rage isn't the problem however. It's the fact that you don't need to adapt to the game, whining on the forums is enough to get the game adapted to you.
Totaly, even if ranged was removed, whiners would whine about something. The best way to end this is to conclude CRPG. That way people would simply have to adapt to the game.
The worst part is, all this whinning makes it hard for actual constructive criticism to surface, thus reducing the quality of the end product.
Let me whine about whiners complaining about whiners, c-RPG would have developed into a truly archer and cav heaven by now if it weren't for us whiners.
Lame, game reducing classes has won over what is truly unique about our combat system. End of story.
lol, sure, it's all about players not adapting to the game.. Of course it is, but there is a big BUT. (T?)
Adapting to the current balance is simply boring. It's to go cav, archer or shielder yourself.
* I don't want to take away 4 directional blocking by being a shielder.You can carry a shield and sheath it when you want to attack with your katana.
* I don't want to ride around and lance people in the back. (It makes me feel dirty)Oh yes, ninjas are known for their honor and they never flank or shoot you when you are fighting.
* And I for sure don't want to run and shoot. There actually exist others and better games for that. (Where most people shoot back even!)
This is the only game I ever played who have given me this much adrenaline. I don't get it from other classes. That's my addiction.
@Tears
I'm not talking removal here.. Just decimate their numbers a few times. About half would be OK.
Also come to EU more often. I heard NA is paradise compared to it.
lol, sure, it's all about players not adapting to the game.. Of course it is, but there is a big BUT. (T?)
Adapting to the current balance is simply boring. It's to go cav, archer or shielder yourself.
* I don't want to take away 4 directional blocking by being a shielder.
* I don't want to ride around and lance people in the back. (It makes me feel dirty)
* And I for sure don't want to run and shoot. There actually exist others and better games for that. (Where most people shoot back even!)
This is the only game I ever played who have given me this much adrenaline. I don't get it from other classes. That's my addiction.
Lame, game reducing classes has won over what is truly unique about our combat system. End of story.
Let me whine about whiners complaining about whiners, c-RPG would have developed into a truly archer and cav heaven by now if it weren't for us whiners.
Are you the only one entitled to the fun?
so that shieldless inf would have all the fun and all others none? Like I said, adapt.
lol, sure, it's all about players not adapting to the game.. Of course it is, but there is a big BUT. (T?)
Adapting to the current balance is simply boring. It's to go cav, archer or shielder yourself.
* I don't want to take away 4 directional blocking by being a shielder.
* I don't want to ride around and lance people in the back. (It makes me feel dirty)
* And I for sure don't want to run and shoot. There actually exist others and better games for that. (Where most people shoot back even!)
This is the only game I ever played who have given me this much adrenaline. I don't get it from other classes. That's my addiction.
Lame, game reducing classes has won over what is truly unique about our combat system. End of story.
Let me whine about whiners complaining about whiners, c-RPG would have developed into a truly archer and cav heaven by now if it weren't for us whiners.
The melee combat system is what makes the game appealing to me. I can see people enjoying the cav and ranged too, but where else can you get manual directional blocking with the sort of depth we get here?
My solution would be to increase the skill floor for cav and ranged, and make them require more deliberate actions from the players. How thats done i'm not totally fussy on, just some general ideas:
Make crossbows more than just point&click, make them require some more distance judging from the player or something (projectile arc)
Make cav have more to risk in their engagements while allowing them to overcome any weaknesses through skillful play/tactical decisions. They act more like fast manoeuvrable tanks than animals
Make bows accurate but again require the player to judge the distance more to the target with accurate shots as long as you aim up enough, and possibly give them less ammo
Make shielding less about just simply holding right mouse button for defence. Keep forcefield for projectiles but make it so you need to aim the shield at melee attacks
Just increase the depth of the classes in general.
crpg is just a block fest atm, this slow gameplay means that killing one person in a duel or whatever takes 2-3 minutes... Meh boring
Yes, 39/3 builds should be fast. :lol:
After 12 pages I'm not sure what the original argument was and it really doesn't look like it reached any sort of consensus.
All I can say is, "yes, let's go back to that short-lived ranged nerf where 15 archers would have to be shooting one person simultaneously to kill them".
Huseby, you're also part of the ride around back of the enemy formation and pick off the occupied style of cav, lance horses then ride off, engage the minimal risk, high reward situations. The whiners may be annoying but you're basically whining about them whining while you picked one of the path of least resistance classes.
lol, sure, it's all about players not adapting to the game.. Of course it is, but there is a big BUT. (T?)
Adapting to the current balance is simply boring. It's to go cav, archer or shielder yourself.
* I don't want to take away 4 directional blocking by being a shielder.
* I don't want to ride around and lance people in the back. (It makes me feel dirty)
* And I for sure don't want to run and shoot. There actually exist others and better games for that. (Where most people shoot back even!)
This is the only game I ever played who have given me this much adrenaline. I don't get it from other classes. That's my addiction.
Lame, game reducing classes has won over what is truly unique about our combat system. End of story.
Let me whine about whiners complaining about whiners, c-RPG would have developed into a truly archer and cav heaven by now if it weren't for us whiners.
as opposed to what it is now where every noob with a greatsword and 50 body armour can spam for positive kdr ?
2 hander has a purpose, but that purpose is in a mass melee, after using their shield to get too mass melee. Taking no shield whatsoever and then crying that ranged kills you ... are you serious dude ?
Nerf nerfs!
There is no doubt that there is an exorbitantly high amount of ranged and cavalry players on the servers, and there is also no doubt that the core feature, the most special and unique part of cRPG and Warband in general is the melee system, but both classes, ranged and cav, don't really take advantage of that feature. That's why in my eyes they should always play a side role at the best, it's still a melee game. (Backstabbing cav is no melee).This game is not all about melee.
For that I only got one comment. Perhaps not the greatest idea, but at least I tried.
I read the entire thread and I think I was the only one who suggested anything other than a nerf.
This game is not all about melee.
I played melee builds for few gens till now and I haven't notice any problems with cav or ranged. The fact that there're many of them doesn't mean they are OP.
Everybody's saying any playstyle except his playstyle is gay, that sounds so retarded.
I weep with shame every time an arrow hits my shield. Unless of course, I'm protecting the 2-handers behind me in an advance. Ha ha, JK! I've never had a 2-hander stay behind me in an advance :lol:Every time you try the shielder will suddenly decide to just intentionally leave you to get shot, just sayin'.
Suggesting to change the equipment can never be an argument. If we follow your philosophy, all infantry should exclusively be hoplites (shield vs. ranged, spear vs. cav), and if they are not, it's their fault they suck.
The idea is not that bad, actually, but I would rather concentrate on XP income than on gold gain. Because if you concentrate on latter, you directly affect the effectivity of a class by lowering its upkeep, which is equal to a nerf.Oops, yeah I remember that now:oops:. But by the time I got finished reading all the posts it was a distant, hazy memory. I like that idea as it promotes teamplay, but would the usual rambos take advantage of it? There are already a lot of benefits of working as a team, such as staying alive and winning rounds and getting multiplyers, but a lot of people don't think the rewards are worth the thrill of charging shieldless into a volley of arrows or the excitement of dodging three lancer cav all by yourself.
I made this (http://forum.meleegaming.com/general-discussion/the-state-of-crpg/msg343630/#msg343630) post, long long time ago. It got ignored completely as well. I guess people fear maths. (Although there is nothing more complicated involced than the rule of three/percentages (which are also some kind of rule of three))
Oh, btw:(click to show/hide)
Every time you try the shielder will suddenly decide to just intentionally leave you to get shot, just sayin'.Yeah, I'm sure that happens. Kind of like when you draw out a couple tin can 2-handers out into your archer's killing field just to find they got bored and left. But some of us actually do try help the 2-handers. I sure as hell want them there when we close in with melee, being hybrid and all.
I never said they were OP, nor did I say another playstayle was gay.Sorry for misunderstanding, guess only my first sentence was adressed to you)
Wait. Telling infantry to take a shield is not okay, but several threads about Archers who only have a 0slot weapon with them are okay? Is it okay to tell Archers to fight in melee, and not kite, while it is not okay to tell infantry to get a shield against ranged, and a spear against cav? Tell the cav not to couche lance, but dont tell the infantry to get a spear. Tell the archers to go into melee whenever an infantry wants them to, but dont tell infantry to defend themselves by taking a shield? If you are getting shot, you use a shield. be clever, think yourself.
Anyone who doesn't help himself, is simply not in the position to complain. That's stupid.
There are only a few infantry players who actually use a shield (talking mainly about 2h here), example is rufio. He put 3 (?) points into shield. It is okay if he complains about Archers. But someone who doesn't use a shield, shouldn't do that.
And this stupid claim that warband is mostly about melee (or that crpg is mostly about melee), is also stupid and not true. It doesn't even matter that the new forum url is "meleegaming". That doesnt change shit.
This may surprise some people, but all the same things that are getting you killed in game, are the same things that middle age armies had to counter and deal with. When archers started getting the best of infantry, battle field commanders came up with the bright idea to use shield formations. When cavalry started getting the best of ground troops, battlefield commanders came up with the bright idea to bring long pointy sticks into battle and use them in formations.
Even crude formations in c-rpg will combat archer spam and cav spam. But people refuse to even consider that as a possible solution to their woes. So keep bitching and complaining, the dev's will cave and nerf something like they always do when enough people bitch about it. When really they just need to say "have you tried tactics, teamwork, or not exposing your weaknesses to the enemy? how bout you give that a try and then come back to me never"
So this post is a re-hash of this post: this (http://forum.meleegaming.com/general-discussion/the-state-of-crpg/msg343630/#msg343630)
Well, that's sucky, I thought I had an original idea but it turned out it was yours (Joker's) pretty much. Though that chart was damned confusing, and took me a while to sort of get it. Still, I like it as it could steer the uber-build builders away from cav and range and still let the cav and range lovers continue playing their beloved classes without being nerfed. It would also get people to use alts more, and who knows, they might get to like their new class once they get good at it.
As for everything else, I hate nerfs and buffs being used to punish people for playing a class.
As for the teamwork, it would be nice if there was some sort of ranking dealie. When you get on and one guy yells 'go left' and another 'go right' and another 'form shieldwall' and another 'I'm defending the stairs', its kind of hard to know which one to listen to. Perhaps if you want to be a commander you could get voted on the forums and get a special tag, or it could be based on your win/loss rate (definitely not KD). That way we know who's a credible leader.
Needless to say, not everyone will obey, and they shouldn't have to. But I'm sure once the mass starts cooperating, more and more people will get into it.
We had the commander discussions already a few times in the forum, and I suggest that commanders are elected in the forum by vote, and the admins then grant them "commander rights", which works similar like admin rights: when you connect to the server, you have them.
One thing is certain, when score system finally replace multi, number of arbalests will go down drastically. There will be a lot more melee builds and more cav as well.
Manual blocking was never more accessible to the masses in cRPG than it is now.
I've followed few new guys who decided to play 2H kuyak hero, first day they were horrible. Second day they already started blocking few attacks, third day they learned a bit of footwork and were actually "good".
ancient Morrowind
One thing is certain, when score system finally replace multi,........That sounds awesome.
It is impossible to do both, deal a lot of dmg and survive at the same time. That's simply not fair.
Btw. feints don't work for more than a year, holds aren't working as they used to for quite some time, at the moment it's best to use combination of holds, occasional feints and outreaching (wait for enemy to step in, backpedal a bit then surge forward releasing attack).
I wasn't talking about archers.
:rolleyes: If I hadn't played a battle from time to time, I would believe you that killing ppl is so hard as you decribe.
One thing is certain, when score system finally replace multi ...... at that moment i will propably shed a lonely tear about how silly the onlineworlds are and about "What has cRPG come to" :,(
... at that moment i will propably cry a lonely tear about how silly the onlineworlds are and about "What has cRPG come to" =,(
At that moment I'll pop a god damn champagne.and sacrifice your freedom of gameplay to a stupid number that pretends to tell anything about good playstyle which it can not
And return to the mod fulltime.
Leshma has a point there though.
Any smalltime guy can read your movements, like an open book.
Only reliable way to bypass enemy defenses is to rely on abusing game mechanics to oblivion.
I'd rather not.
I'm talking about situations on battle when your opponent is aware of your presence.
Nothing easier than killing people from behind, but you need 8 ath for that, just like me and you have :wink:I can not agree more, especially with light-medium armor it's just too easy :wink: (btw, a minutes ago I've finally bought dark cavalry robe :mrgreen: cost me an arm and a leg but it was worthy to buy :wink:).
... at that moment i will propably cry a lonely tear about how silly the onlineworlds are and about "What has cRPG come to" :,(
Hm, I'd say for ppl like you, Leshma and, hm, me - high lvl, tons of looms in ihe inventory - multi shouldn't mean a lot.then you should be complaining about a number that claims to tell other people how they should play in order to earn gold and XP
PS sry :oops:
... and I agree with you but I play battle too little to care about that.well ... thats what lonely means i guess xD
Someone probably already called you on this fucknut, this is what our complain with archers boils down to. They deal insane damage without putting themself in any danger, what so ever.
Well, as long as you 2h heroes focus on the "oh he is range, he has such an advantage!!!11" argument, there's no sense in any discussion with you.I agree, we horsethrowers focus on the "You my old friends can run forever and are 100% uncatchable" argument. :D
A few things is going downhill with Crpg atm, I know that many will just say, "it's been going downhill for years", "At fifteen, I had the will to learn ; at thirty, I could stand ; at forty, I had no doubts ; at fifty, I understood the heavenly Bidding ; at sixty, my ears were opened ; at seventy, I could do as my heart lusted without trespassing from the square. for long long time".there is alot of good things going on with cRPG atm too ....
Well, as long as you 2h heroes focus on the "oh he is range, he has such an advantage!!!11" argument, there's no sense in any discussion with you.
I'm a crossbower. Range advantage over melee is huge.
Shield no longer works against decent archers, everyone and their mother is able to trickshot through it.
"I survived the dark ages of archer-fest with my head held high!" to future Crpg players.
Too late, that was ages ago, before archers got nerfed repeatedly to their current state. Imagine native archers, but more accurate, with better firing rate, and dealing more damage. That was the state of archers and crossbowers at the start. Every following iteration of crpg has nerfed range. All the cunts whining about "ZOMG WE ARE LIVING IN OP ARCHER CRPG AGE" are either wearing rose-tinted glasses when looking at the past of the game or weren't even there and are talking out of their ass.
I also can't remember where I saw it not too long ago, but one archer said something along the lines of "I shoot shielders just fine" so please stop with the patronizing.And another archer said "I suck at shooting through the shield but eh, fuck that, I can just kite off and shot someone else, not like anything can catch me anyway."
Don't get me wrong, I also have the "hates ranged with a burning passion" gene somewhere in my DNA. I will never stop calling them cowardly my old friends, even if the only ranged weapon was a 1c dmg stone. But I realize that no, they aren't OP, especially when compared to the way they used to be.
Same. I play pole+noshield after all.
(click to show/hide)
:mrgreen:
i'm sorry, but you guys (meaning 99% of the community) are just bad at this game.
You die to the already ridiculously weak ranged, because you're too half-witted to take a shield and right click, then you complain ranged is overpowered. You chase archers with their 3 body armour when you have 7000 body armour and when you can't catch them you say that's OP (despite the fact none of you ever have any throwing).
You get lanced in the back when you have no polearm because of your lack of any awareness, and then cav is OP.
It's really not the fault of the game being imbalanced; you're all just bad.
Moo
Really bad post.
So in your opinion everyone who is not supposed to suck is meant to play hoplite? Because that's what your opinion boils down to.
You can easily see that your argument is false if you assume the situation of having 50 shielders vs. 50 archers in a battle. With your argumentation, the shielders will win against the archers, because they have a shield. But there is this sweet phenomenon that additional melee fighters increase the effectivity of a melee group linearly, while additional archers increase the effectivity of an archer group exponentially.
This phenomenon bases on the fact that archers are almost always able to pick their target, melee fighters are not. This allows archers to attack and kill the weakest targets (e.g. shielders which are blocking into another direction), lowering the overall number of enemies, so that they can deal even faster with the rest, starting a viciouscirclespiral which can only lead to the defeat of the melee fighters.
In our scenario the archers would simply run off and spread out, and take the slow shielders under crossfire. Sure as hell the shielders would lose 10 out of... 10? battles.
Of course there are other classes, too on the battlefield, and we do have a rock-paper-scissors-system, but guess who will win if you have 30 rocks, 30 papers and 40 scissors.
Just to prevent you of accusing me of something I dodn't do: I don't say archers are OP. There is not a single archer in cRPG which I would call OP, never mind how mad his skills are. The NUMBER of the archers on the servers is OP.
Just imagine we would have 56 infantry players per team, 2 cavalry and 2 archers. Neither the cavalry nor the archers would be able to reach the level of efficiency the infantry would reach, because they are simply too few. It is easy to keep track of the only two enemy cav and to always be aware of them, and it is easy to keep track of the only enemy two archers and to keep your shield towards them, use the proper cover or dodge their arrows.
But now try to do the same thing against 20 archers.
You see what I am aiming at? And you see why your post is bad? Next to the fact that it is always not acceptable to suggest other people to effectively change their class, because that's no solution to balancing problems. (If we can call this a balancing problem at all).
this argument is just boiling down to you not being very good.
Anyone who's played native for any amount of time knows that you don't kill the archers by yourself. If there are 30 players vs 30 players, as in your scenario, it's not about killing the archers. If you have a shield, you hover just outside of the range of as many archers as you can, making sure you are never crossfired, thus distracting however many enemies with your 1 player. Then when backup arrives you kill them, with ridiculous ease.
If you think it's smart to run in solo against 3 archers, you will die.
If you have the foggiest idea what you're doing, and stop them from firing at teammates, or at least distract them for a while, they will die, oh so very easily.
So yes, 50 shielders would almost always defeat 50 archers, provided the shielders had the first clue what they were doing, and stopped the archers from shooting :).
I know I'm the 1,000,000th person to use this, but damn is it applicable right now in this thread...
I think this is simply wrong. If the archers know what they do they will always spread out and keep the targets between them, and with their higher movement speed they will win the positioning game, not the infantry. And I also dare to say that the higher the amount of archers, the more they can even get outnumbered by enemy melee players and still win the fight. I saw three good archers killing five enemy infantry, and there was nothing the infantry could have done against that.
You just made some statements without explaining them properly, and often I don't even know what you want to say with it (if you hover out of their range you can't distract them. And I didn't say you rush alone against three archers. The numbers are equal. Although the effect will be the same, because all archers will be able to attack a single enemy, which is the same result as if the enemy attacked on his own. That's that exponential effectivity increase thing again).
And I don't have a clue how a slow shielder is supposed to stop an archer from firing. Casting a blinding spell?
So, 2 and 3 are now shooting at me whilst 1 is running. I'm hovering around the area, dodging as many arrows as i can, and basically trying to keep as close to them as possible, without putting myself in actual danger.
Yeah, sorry if I sound dramatic again, but the "the game is broken for you? - Change your class!"-argumentation never helped anything, it's just a sign of ignorance, and as valuable as "tl;dr" or "nice post, would read again", with the little difference that the authors of latter posts do not even think they contributed something to the discussion.
This is where the plan will fail against half decent archers.
A heavy infantryman blocking with his shield is neither good in chasing nor dodging. A shielder against three archers will die as sure as a pikeman will against three longswords.
There is no way a shielder can put an archer under pressure, except of forcing him to displace, which the archer will do in a way that will increase the distance again. During that time you will be shot into your back multiple times by the others.
look, i shouldn't have to teach you how to play the damned game lol.
What im saying is actually how to play, im not b/sing or anything, it's what you do.
MORE DETAIL:
ok, scenario, 3 archers in a "group" (say they're spaced approx 20 feet apart, not too tight).
You are a shielder reasonably by yourself, and these archers are shooting at your friends (it's a normal fight, say ~~ 30vs30), they're killing your friends, because they are allowed to shoot.
So i have my archer protection, (my shield, my dodging, and my placement), and i have my cav protection (my 1wpf spear / greatsword, and my awareness).
So, as long as i keep my distance from the archers and i'm not overwhelmed by something, i am pretty much hard to take down right now.
These archers, are shooting at my friends, as i said. Assume all 3 archers know i'm there, so im not ganking them. They realise there's no point shooting at me, as you've been saying, and they carry on shooting at my team, whilst keeping an eye on me so i cannot gank them.
What do i do ?
I move towards one of the archers, placing myself NEAR to being crossfired, but not actually crossfired. This makes the archer I am moving towards have to displace, or he will be in melee with me, and because of my superior melee build, he should lose. So archer 1 is running away, but his buddy 2 and 3 now, they either have the choice of shooting me to stop their buddy dieing, or shooting into the main fight's melee. If they shoot into the melee, i can just pick them off 1 by 1, but let's assume they try to stop me killing 1.
So, 2 and 3 are now shooting at me whilst 1 is running. I'm hovering around the area, dodging as many arrows as i can, and basically trying to keep as close to them as possible, without putting myself in actual danger. Basically i'm just trying to grasp their attention, and every time i get either an opportunity to kill one of them, or they stop focussing me and start focussing my teammates, I move closer to threaten them more.
I hope this has better helped you understand, a general way to defeat groups of archers.
So basically infantry should just stand near archers and wait for them to use up all their arrows? Seems fun.
who said it had to be fun, we're talking about game balance, and game balance is about win / lose not fun / boringhaha
and besides, it is actually quite fun defeating archers through knowing how to play the game :)
and besides, it is actually quite fun defeating archers through knowing how to play the game :)
and there is the weakness of heavy armour.
in battle i use armour that weighs ~~ 5 total, precisely because i know that wearing heavy armour with a shield is so worthless. I can block everything i need to with my shield, and i can dodge every fight i don't need to be in, with my speed. If you will wear 25 weight of body armour with a 7 weight shield don't be surprised when you can't catch archers. It's just a bad build.
Kinngrim's build with tons of athletics with light-medium armor and a medium shield is the prime anti-archer build. Tanking melee builds are obviously at a disadvantage against someone faster, as they should be.
If they can't catch someone, they should use their brains and seek cover and wait for flags or opportunities to engage, perhaps someone else that they can fight against.
They made that build and chose that equipment to be good when pitted against other infantry. They chose that with the knowledge that they might not be very good against some other builds, and now the complaints seem to be about their class losing when not one or two, but three archers are against them and they lose in this scenario.
They made that build and chose that equipment to be good when pitted against other infantry. They chose that with the knowledge that they might not be very good against some other builds, and now the complaints seem to be about their class losing when not one or two, but three archers are against them and they lose in this scenario.
i get 1 shot by pretty much anything greatsword and above ... do i cry when i'm killed by a greatsword ? occasionally, but i don't go whining on the forums saying greatsword's OP every time i die to one ...
Please lock the thread already...
Please read my signature, over and over until the obvious sets in for you.
Don't equip a shield then. Protect your own ranged who can counter the enemy archers. Don't put yourself in a position to be flanked or shot from enemy ranged. Get behind your own shielders. There's lots of tactics you can use to counter archers without resorting to the "stop telling me to pick up a shield" argument. Learn some fucking tactics and use some teamwork. You choose your build, and while it may be strong versus some classes, it's going to be naturally weak to others.
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Please lock the thread already...
Please read my signature, over and over until the obvious sets in for you. If you need some help with in game tactics I'd be more than willing to spend my free time giving you QQ'ers an education.
Why lock the thread :)
Sure cmp want people to use teamwork an tatics touche this aint a strat battle an you cant control 50 random players by spamming the keyboard...
Sry i meant what 30 / 28 players per team nowadays on eu1 :?: :lol:
Also dont care i dont play battle anyways but i get people being frustrated.
Out of sheer curiosity, and as a complete aside to this entire conversation, what is cav's weakness?you should find out yourself ;)
Sure cmp want people to use teamwork an tatics touche this aint a strat battle an you cant control 50 random players by spamming the keyboard...they do not, otherwise they would add/improve teamwork&tactics related supportive features ...
Out of sheer curiosity, and as a complete aside to this entire conversation, what is cav's weakness?it gets boring very fast due to how easy and effective it is
I am opinionated and right.
You are stupid and wrong.
P and Q. The end I wins.
This thread made me remember why I stopped posting on the forums.
Out of sheer curiosity, and as a complete aside to this entire conversation, what is cav's weakness?
Don't put yourself in a position to be flanked or shot from enemy ranged. [...] You choose your build, and while it may be strong versus some classes, it's going to be naturally weak to others.
you should find out yourself ;)
they do not, otherwise they would add/improve teamwork&tactics related supportive features ...
Out of sheer curiosity, and as a complete aside to this entire conversation, what is cav's weakness?
They aren't as effective as infantry in turning the tide of battle.
You can hold areas of the battlefield with infantry, you can't with cavalry. They are weak to anyone with a spear over 150 length (that can rear their horse). They are weak to 2h great swords who out reach their heavy lances. They are weak to enemy ranged units (both ground and mounted, archers, xbow and throwers). They are weak when ground troops are on an elevated surface, or where there is not room to maneuver. They are weak when ground troops are hugging walls (which 98% of the battle maps have).
And they are pretty much nullified by anyone who is aware of their presence (not an actual counter, but a method of avoidance).
Out of sheer curiosity, and as a complete aside to this entire conversation, what is cav's weakness?
Very debatable. Very, very, very debatable. Cav bumps are so useful it's downright silly.why would you reply seriously to that dude? he made a thread about buffing cav, hes even more delusional than "nate" and his putie hacker accusation
All situations that you can avoid. You know, ride off and do something else?
Hardly. Good cav can kill anyone that's aware of them, with probably the only exception being pikemen.
But there's no point in getting into an argument about this. My point was that it's very easy for you to say that infantry should be aware of their weaknesses (and I'm sure all good infantry players are) when your chosen class has the least amount of weaknesses.
why would you reply seriously to that dude? he made a thread about buffing cav, hes even more delusional than "nate" and his putie hacker accusation
When did I make a thread asking to buff cavalry? :rolleyes:
You might disagree with my opinion, but at least I am generally serious with my replies (unless it's completely obvious that I'm fucking around).
Well he does have a point you do happen to be a complete tard :lol:
Out of sheer curiosity, and as a complete aside to this entire conversation, what is cav's weakness?
(click to show/hide)
I don't think anybody is really buying that cav weakness typeup.
3:05 & 3:20 & 4:06 No need to thank me.
Good cav can kill anyone that's aware of them, with probably the only exception beingFixedpikemena my old friendcher on a ruin who is 100% unreachable and will stay there in his my old friendcher group shooting everyone being unreachable until the very end of the round, who are as bad as roofcampers.
Don't equip a shield then. Protect your own ranged who can counter the enemy archers. Don't put yourself in a position to be flanked or shot from enemy ranged. Get behind your own shielders. There's lots of tactics you can use to counter archers without resorting to the "stop telling me to pick up a shield" argument. Learn some fucking tactics and use some teamwork. You choose your build, and while it may be strong versus some classes, it's going to be naturally weak to others.
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Please lock the thread already...
Please read my signature, over and over until the obvious sets in for you. If you need some help with in game tactics I'd be more than willing to spend my free time giving you QQ'ers an education.
ranged and cavalry are the only things that keep a game sense element of skill to the game as an infantry player.
remove them and invite the noob fest.
People should have to become more skilled at the game, the game should not work around people's lack of skill. that has always been crpg's failing. Every time a noob does not know how to counter archers, they nerf them. Every time a noob does not know how to block, they buff armour. Every time a noob does not know how to lance, they buff horsebump damage. Crpg needs more skill and less noob-buffs, please stop inviting them to add more.
It's not only melee infantry who play this game for fun. All do. Even archers and cavalry.
Never forget that. Show them respect and I'm sure you will get some kind of mutual respect in return.
It might be an archer not shooting you while you are defenseless as the last man alive.
It might be a lancer not couch lancing you at spawn.
It might be a 2H not instantly killing you when you lie defenseless on the ground after being dehorsed.
Personally I got a few players in my list of players who show me respect.
Then I have this list of those who cry about lancing being easy mode, telling me I'm a total noob.
It's a bit hard for me to be nice to those.
This game is so full of hate. It's the thing I hate most about it...
If classes would be races you all would be racists.
People play cav to be a gigantic dick and ruin the game for everyone else, so do most archers and throwers. They know how unfun and unskilled it is to die from their class so they laugh about it when they kill top melee players with one hit kills (couches, headshots) while realizing how brokenly OP their class is compared to melee builds.
Well said. This is the case and has always been.
Bad players complain. Good players adapt.
The game is balanced around bad players, not the good ones.
This is not the best philosophy. Because "bad players complain" indicates that there is never a good reason to complain, and "good players adapt" indicates that there is never a need to change anything, because you can adapt.
I don't say you are wrong about archers or cav, nor am I supporting a nerf for archers or cav, but I definitely don't like this "Well, *I* do not have any problems with the game so it is fine. If *YOU* have problems it is YOUR fault, because I do fine. You just need to adapt. Like... change your class?" It's a sign of ignorance for me.
If classes would be races you all would be racists.I lol'd , but there is somewhat true about that ...
The case is that most players consider themselves to be good and skilled.
While in reality they are only good at dueling. People lack awareness which is the most important skill to avoid getting killed by archers and cavalry.
But instead of just improving and trying to play smarter they want archery and cavalry nerfed so much that they don't have to think about it.
That's the problem.
People play cav to be a gigantic dick and ruin the game for everyone else, so do most archers and throwers. They know how unfun and unskilled it is to die from their class so they laugh about it when they kill top melee players with one hit kills (couches, headshots) while realizing how brokenly OP their class is compared to melee builds.
People play cav to be a gigantic dick and ruin the game for everyone else, so do most archers and throwers. They know how unfun and unskilled it is to die from their class so they laugh about it when they kill top melee players with one hit kills (couches, headshots) while realizing how brokenly OP their class is compared to melee builds.
I was on NA battle a little while ago and at least 65% of the game was ranged or cav oriented. That's too high for my taste. It doesn't help that a lot of maps are geared toward that style of gameplay.
That would be interesting to see if Meow or another dev has access to that information.having a screen displaying the current unit mix of the teams would be awesome indeed :idea:
Stop getting shot then.
Stop getting shot then.Oooooh, tactics, never heard of that, you're too clever for nigga like me.
I had a dreams... That I'll play well made medival fighting simulator and meet Anne Hathaway, but that's the other thing.
When I was starting at cRPG in 2010/11, it was great, hours of playing wasn't wasted, you gained levels, you could make nice combinations of gears, builds it was really awesome, even when upkeep comeout against tincans, and become more friendly too beginners, but it was about how skilled are you. Today, sadly, we have an Assassin Creed (which I really like, but if I want to play AC I goin' on PS to play it, not doing it in Warband), it's about to how to sneak up your enemy, bump him, and let ganked by teammates, backstabbing, hiding around the corner, or just ganking in group, that became routine, the "best" players are just running around with at least two people, or just slicing everyone in back, it became to be most effective killer, but for cost of beeing (I'm not said honored that's too much) nice, people just seek how to kill, not to match, for me it loses alll the fun.
Thank you.
Albrecht_von_Romagna - Doesn't sound like you're NA, but I'll be online in a few hours playing in NA1. Stop by hospitaller teamspeak and we can go over battle tactics for any situation you encounter.
This is an open invitation to anyone who has problems with "x" class or "y" play-style.
Teamspeak address: IL2.LeetTS.com:10040
When I placed you by my finger what I'm tryin' to say, you no longer want to speak about it, huh?
And just because I choose to take the class that is the most like a carnivorous predator IRL, that doesn't mean I don't understand other dynamics between classes.
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I do think of cav lancer fighting in c-rpg as very much like WWII dog fighting, but on a 2d plane versus 3d (if I'm going up against other horsemen). I feel more like a cheetah when I'm picking off stragglers, and like a German Panther tank when flanking enemy infantry that are engaged with my infantry.
I'll bite anyways. I am fully confident on the ground in my ability to not get steamrolled or put myself in a terrible position (tactically). And just because I choose to take the class that is the most like a carnivorous predator IRL, that doesn't mean I don't understand other dynamics between classes.
this why I prefer siege as infantry still rules. the only downside is everyone is 30-3
visitors can't see pics , please register or loginSmart cav works with infantry, ie trying to draw enemy cav to friendly infantry. In your terms, engaging the enemy near your flak guns. When you have hoplites and throwers near you, an enemy cav can't concentrate on you alone. I remember begging cav in chat to stay close to where the anti-cav infantry was, and preferably draw them nearer. Unfortunately most were 'Maverick' types, and we lost the anti-cav advantage.
I do think of cav lancer fighting in c-rpg as very much like WWII dog fighting, but on a 2d plane versus 3d (if I'm going up against other horsemen). I feel more like a cheetah when I'm picking off stragglers, and like a German Panther tank when flanking enemy infantry that are engaged with my infantry.
I believe all problems stem from the Courser and the Arabian.
Remove those two from the game and you'll see a lot of stuff fall back into line because everything that happens with infantry and ranged is a reaction to loomed coursers and arabians (mostly coursers).
After your 25th time being lanced in the back by a horse that's so fast you had no chance to hear it coming, you start thinking about things like spears.
After your 25th time being lanced in the back by a horse that's so fast you had no chance to hear it coming while trying to stab some other horse that simply stayed out of range of your spear, you start thinking about things like ranged.
So you either give up entirely and pick up a bow so you can hide in a tower and shoot horses or else you at least pick up power throw 4 so you can throw axes at horses, which I can tell you is WAY more effective than trying to spear them (good cav easily avoid spears but avoiding throwing means staying 50 meters away at all times).
The people who toughed it out and stayed infantry are now being shot and axed to death by ranged attacks that were originally picked up to be used on horses. When there's no horses around, you use it on infantry instead. These remaining infantry, tired of being peppered by ranged, will either go cav or ranged. (They may briefly try shield only to realize it leaves them nearly defenseless against cav.)
I think if the best horse was the Destrier, you wouldn't see this cascade of failure occur because destriers aren't so awesome-fast or awesome-maneuverable to just make infantry give up.
The refusal to nerf coursers and arabians means this mod can never really find a balance.
Incidentally, what's up with horse acceleration in cRPG? I was noticing in single player native, if you ram your horse into a crowd of people you're liable to grind to a halt. cRPG seems to slow you down too but you recover speed so fast that unless you jam your horse into a smashed crowd of 10 infantry, you'll hit 1 and have your speed back before you hit the 2nd one, 5 feet further in. Consequently you can ram through formations in cRPG that you would never attempt in native. Combine that with loomed courser speed and it's generally a free lance and a free getaway.
How the fuck is this being downvoted.
Good idea is to buff infantry movement speed.
Heh, archers.
Most archers are OP only in big numbers and only against shieldless infantry.
Truly OP archers are level 35 and have 18/27 builds with MW Rus bow and MW Bodkin arrows.
Various limitations are the reason why cRPG battle is kinda crappy atm. Start reverting some of those changes and cRPG battle will become fun again.
Various limitations are the reason why cRPG battle is kinda crappy atm. Start reverting some of those changes and cRPG battle will become fun again.well spoken indeed ...
I would like to redirect you to my little topic (http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/ideas-to-buff-infantry/), because I'd like to know what you think about the ideas. It's a try to use only buffs, instead of nerfs, to get the fun level of playing infantry on the same level like playing cav or archer.Joker, you know that i really like tactics too and i like some of the ideas but the OP is simply to big to say anything propper to that, sorry ;(
well spoken indeed ...
Archers are not running because they want to in many cases (tenne, blackbow).
The currently few archers builds plus their similar (rather equal) setups are caused by the past archery nerfs which FORCED archers to play like they do now with low variety.
rebuff low tier bows
reduce armor wpf penalty for archery
make arrows use 0 slots
and you will soon see archers with better armor, better weapons going melee instead of running - because they cant do the my old friend run in medium/medium heavy armor and they have a good weapon in their backpack. To limit highspeed archers exploit , make 1 PD for 4 STR instead of 3 or come up with bettter solution.
Yet afterall, all current archery QQ was caused by the past archery QQ plus the devs overcommit to nerfs which cant change the game physics from existing.
But i doubt that will happen ...
well spoken indeed ...
Archers are not running because they want to in many cases (tenne, blackbow).
The currently few archery builds plus their similar (rather equal) setups are caused by the past archery nerfs which FORCED archers to play like they do now with low variety.
rebuff low tier bows
reduce armor wpf penalty for archery
make arrows use 0 slots
Anyhow the plain goal has to stay , i doubt you will sell a CTF or take and hold or conquer easily , besides the huge effords that would result for rewriting/creating a whole new game mode involving many ballance changes. The charm of cRPG is still the feeling to have somewhat of a RPG in FPS appearance connected with the open world strategus component.
No thanks. This would make archers lethal from range and in melee, removing the need for infantry entirely.in first place , noone said to make archers leathal in melee
reduce armor wpf penalty for archeryvisitors can't see pics , please register or login
make arrows use 0 slots
Oh and I don't mind when archers kite. Perfectly valid tactic that plays to their strenghts. Except of course when its the last remaining archer kiting 8 people but the rules have covered that.well ok youre not one of the guys complaining about kiting which is however the majority of complaints and the heaviest ballancing issue it appears...
No, like I said in the edit, I don't mind kiting archers.i noticed and edited that sorry "^_^
Most archers are OP only in big numbers and only against shieldless infantry.
Conquest mode. Like Joker said. I have no idea what that actually is, but if there's one thing infantry can do that cav and range can't do, is holding territory. If holding territory wins the game, there's no need to nerf cav/range nor buff infantry. Let 'em be OP that don't bug me as long as infantry can guarantee the victory.
Conquest mode. Like Joker said. I have no idea what that actually is, but if there's one thing infantry can do that cav and range can't do, is holding territory. If holding territory wins the game, there's no need to nerf cav/range nor buff infantry. Let 'em be OP that don't bug me as long as infantry can guarantee the victory.
It is true, and that's one major difference between cavalry and infantry. Infantry can take and hold areas of a map. Cavalry can't do that against infantry (unless the infantry are not organized or have the correct weapons, and even then, Cavalry isn't holding the area, just killing people). I wouldn't be against conquest game mode, however I think we already have it in the battle server, the flags come up on every map if people aren't dying before the end of the round.
I wouldn't like the Battle mode to move away from one spawn per round, it makes your life that much more important. And also, everyone is on equal footing if you can't respawn until the next round. I typically have another game running in the background, and play that if I die early in the round. Or I go piss, or browse the internet, etc. So I never have a problem waiting for the next round.
I still think that although cavalry and fast archers can pick and choose their engagements, they are at the whim of infantry. If I'm attacking infantry, I can only attack people where they physically are. If you're not on the open ground by yourself, I can't attack you on the open ground, by yourself. I believe that in almost every round, infantry dictates which team wins. The infantry that is more organized seems to be which team wins more often than not.
MAPS!I actually have a half finished map I was making for conquest several months ago, I should really get around to finishing it along with the town maps I have. Regardless though, progress on the game mode is on hiatus still, I believe. Wouldn't really do any good finishing the map.
A fully realized conquest/domination type game mode, that is fast, functional, rewards infantry play and encourages even pubbies to do teamwork, and has really good maps.. not 110 shit generic maps like battle, just 5-6 GOOD maps designed for the mode, even only 2-3 to start..
Would be the best thing 4 this game in the past year, would be tremendously more entertaining then any strat gimmicks, and could be a flagship gametype for a future MELEEGAMING.COM entry into the donkeyteam's game catalogue.
I wouldn't want to see a single respawn either. Just ape Battlefield's conquest a lot. Teams get tickets and losing ground or lives ticks them away. What's so shitty about battle as an infantry player is you can man up and charge to take ground that is being contested then just die to pikes, a cav couch, headshot, or whatever. If you want to get points stay alive and not die to ranged or cav instantly you need to honestly play like a pussy more often then not, even if being an over aggressive dude can have moments of hilarity/great success too.
The metagame I always honed in my mind when I was a strat commander, most of which never really work that well because even strat just is glorified team death match.. is the idea of map control. Occuping territory with infantry. Using ranged to facilitate movement of infantry players. Cav threaten the routes infantry must take to get from points a-b-c or can be a mobile force like jeeps in battlefield to threaten rear spawns. Strat NEVER plays like this though. Its boring. Its just TDM, regardless of map or setting.
Just making really interesting maps for this mode, with you know A B C points, and spawns turn to these points if you control them and maybe a few others around it that you set like Strat battles. Maybe mini castles around the points and stuff like that. It would be AWESOME!
All my goddamn pluses.
Edit: You could have flags like in strat that give you the option to spawn there. Unless we get a way to be able to pick spawns before spawning.
Who create the last updates? since 2 years the community want more meele fighting and less my old friendchery .guess who is part of this community... ;)
guess who is part of this community... ;)
M&B is such an amazing gameYou can get kills with armor?
CRPG was fucking amazing when i started it, i had a lot of fun because i could play how i want and wasnt forced to use range, i was using an elegant poleaxe with 98 speed, i could duel with it and would rape every shielder in battle... sure it wasnt the best for duel, but god damn was it fun in battle...
it had the same melee combat as native, animations werent clunky, bouncing was way way way less "dominating" (less goretooth like herp derp rely on bounce to get kills) and yes there was a couple of player who sucked ass and were still in the top 3 of every map (beatrix, kesh, etc), but atleast i wasnt afraid of fighting them because i could flawless them without being afraid of my trust bouncing due to fucking retarded animations and screen turning speed, you could kill every bads in second because the game actually promoted single player skill and you could feint/abuse twitchy animations combo to make bads spin their screen around to not see anything.
now my fucking poleaxe has 92 speed, the mod is clunky as fuck and overhead (my favorite swing) is barely usable unless you do no twitch at all (so killing a bad now takes 5 years) and you just get zerged down because nobody kills nobody otherwise because mod is clunky, everybody stacks str and armor looms, mod is slow as hell and animations are just plain fucking retarded compared to native.
now that melee is boring and doesnt get the job done to kill people fast enough to not get zerged, cav numbers are increased, which makes playing melee even more frustrating so those who find cav boring go archers, because they dont want to quit such a great game where you have so many good memories, but little do they know is those memories are long gone, just like player skill in battle.
only legit post ive ever done on these forums, yall bads anyway, nobody ever duels on native, gotta crutch on this slowness/clunkyness/levels/armor some more jellybean.
Who create the last updates? since 2 years the community want more meele fighting and less my old friendchery .
Childish running/jumping/roflcopter/kiting sessions , target group are 12-16 old teens?
Endless grinnding
Mod is really unfriendly to beginners
Horrible gamebalance policy , there is no master plan, yesterday they buff a class , today the nerf and tomorrow they buff it again
Lobbyist..she do anythings for 24/7 players loom/valour/highlvl and nothings for casuals
But that's still the case today, nothing is overpowered, the game and classes are still relatively balanced, and every "strength" a class has, can be countered by a tactic, playstyle or piece of equipment.
Trying to make all the classes completely "fair" and balanced with every other class is a huge problem. The classes ARE supposed to be different from each other...that's the fucking point.
Fucking HX cav can suck a disk. This game is now kiting and running ranged bundle of stickss....Good job chadz....fucking retard
This game is now kiting and running ranged bundle of stickss....Good job chadz....Fkn cnt
you know, crpg gets a lot better when you stop playing it,So does drama on the forums as you're not involved
1h overhead was the only thing that got nerfed and it was nowhere near OP gimmick, it wasn't even best 1h attack (or even 2nd best).
The one hand overhead is one of the best attacks.. Combo feint it with left swing and you often have a clean hit..
After the change I usually hold my 1H overhead for a tiny while. Increases damage, not slow enough to get spammed and gives you more than enough time to aim. Short polearms that rely on stabs was nerfed most by the turn-rate nerf. Forks, double-sided lance, short spears etc.Only the short twodirectional ones, double sides lances and short spears are more than fine.