cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Strider on July 14, 2012, 05:38:39 am

Title: Does Cav seem OP to you? Discuss.
Post by: Strider on July 14, 2012, 05:38:39 am
I've been seeing more and more complaints about cavalry buffness and "Cav OP" / "Cav Nerf" threads.
There are becoming increasingly larger amounts of cavalry in our servers. Sometmes around 10-15 per team on a full server.
It seems to be one of the most popular classes nowadays.

I have came up with a few reasons why people might think it deserves a nerf:

1) Long Spears and Pikes are unsheathable/3 slots. People don't use them much cause their main weapons take up 2+ slots.
2) People don't often use polearms as a secondary weapon because of upkeep.
3) There aren't many good cav stopping polearms that are also good in melee combat. Overhead blunt swing was removed on pikes.
4) Archery is weak
5) Horses are too strong.

The Devs have been thinking of creating a whole new way to control riding horses. Instead of just W-A-S-D. Is this necessary?

Discuss your opinions.

Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Lt_Anders on July 14, 2012, 05:41:23 am
I've been seeing more and more complaints about cavalry buffness and "Cav OP" / "Cav Nerf" threads.
There are becoming increasingly larger amounts ofavalry in our servers. Sometmes around 10-15 per team on a full server.

Stop spamming with your 2h and everything will be fine.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: XyNox on July 14, 2012, 05:43:08 am
There is only one solution ...

Buff archery
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Lt_Anders on July 14, 2012, 05:43:42 am
There is only one solution ...

Buff archery Xbows

Fixed for you.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: oohillac on July 14, 2012, 05:45:29 am
There is only one solution ...

Work together.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: bruce on July 14, 2012, 08:18:13 am
That horse HP....

It's stupid to throw a throwing lance in the flanks of a sarranid horse and have it ride off. Seriously.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Zerran on July 14, 2012, 08:23:48 am
There is only one solution ...

Work together.

+1

Cav aren't OP, people just don't pay attention and try to killwhore. Oh, and spend all their time complaining about and trying to nerf the same pikes/LS/Hoplites that are protecting them.

Admittedly though, having more city maps would be really nice. Having to spend the whole time in battle looking behind oneself is rather annoying.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: bruce on July 14, 2012, 08:40:46 am
Admittedly though, having more city maps would be really nice. Having to spend the whole time in battle looking behind oneself is rather annoying.

Better to balance cav on open maps then have more maps where some players cannot play their class, at all.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Taser on July 14, 2012, 08:44:17 am
There is only one solution ...

Work together.

Teamwork is OP. What happens when one OP thing meets another OP thing?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: _Tak_ on July 14, 2012, 08:55:51 am
Horses could be more OP in NA thats because the server is outdated with few patches, compare EU to NA so far I can control my horse more easily in NA than in EU. Also in NA because everyone has insane amount of PS / STR/ PD it totally make the game unplayable for Cav

heard the dev said they will buff wpf, thats bad because it will going to buff melee/ xbow/archery damage which mean horses will become easier to kill

HA/ HX is way too weak, they are suppose to be anti-cav
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: bruce on July 14, 2012, 09:02:20 am
Crossbow damage is unaffected by wpf, just a minor point.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Bobthehero on July 14, 2012, 09:02:35 am
HA/ HX is way too weak

A thousand times no.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: bruce on July 14, 2012, 09:04:10 am
A thousand times no.

Lungy plays on EU, we have much more foot ranged, foot ranged hybrids and such, not to mention some very good fully heirloomed foot archers. I was on NA once or twice EU wasn't working, there seemed to be much much less foot ranged.



Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 14, 2012, 09:27:32 am
Horses are not overpowered, they just had their counters nerfed to bits compared to before (Like old archery ballistic missiles, nuclear-tipped throwing weapons, or the super-lol-stab of two handers, or the plethora of one slot invisible when sheathed pocket pikes.).

Other things need to go up in power in my opinion, we've had enough nerfs.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: oohillac on July 14, 2012, 09:30:53 am
Increase damage and speed across the board in melee, so people stick together more to survive.  That will put a halt to any uncoordinated lancing, the risks would be too great.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: bonekuukkeli on July 14, 2012, 09:50:39 am
They can't add playing IQ in patches, sorry.

What I would like to see though, is spear bracing that have been suggested earlier and mod called native expansion has it as well so it's very easily doable. While leaning on pike, horses can run to them and die (so people can actually form shieldwalls with spears in between etc).
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Sagar on July 14, 2012, 09:51:37 am
Make horses harder to maneuver, lover hp on horses, lover speed, lover charge, when rider fall from horse left him on random 20 - 30% hp. And make some noise for horses when they running around, you just cant hear them when they coming - they run around silent like on flying carpets.

Last days at battle servers cav is always on top of scoreboard. Cav become easiest OP class on battlefield - It is really hard to make a kill as cav, just run your motorcycle .... horse and pres X for couch.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: _Tak_ on July 14, 2012, 09:54:45 am
Crossbow damage is unaffected by wpf, just a minor point.

Does, the high wpf the more damage your crossbow will be, also it will affect your reloading speed + accuracy, if you have played single player on warband you should really know ;d
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: bonekuukkeli on July 14, 2012, 09:57:14 am
Here's video about spear bracing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJVfLoQa9-A

I think it's stupid to always nerf things.... just add new elements to game that makes it easier to defeat problems and everyone will be happy.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Michael on July 14, 2012, 10:06:53 am
What people often tend to forget in discussions like this one, just a few:

1) Those cavalry you see on top of the scoreboard are (with a few exceptions perhaps) all high level with all masterwork items. Now imagine a similiar two hander. He would be on top of the scoreboard as well. But the lack of awareness is a natural disease of two-handers. They spend most of their play-time on duel servers, and therefore dont understand battle very well. And those who do are always on top of the scoreboard.
Same for high-end rangers.
For pure shielders its difficult these days, they need to find a team that backs them up, so that they can focus on their thing.

2) Cavalry feed on themselves.
A good cavalry player (Oberyn for example) charges other cavalry to take them out of the game.
Cavalry players with no confidence spawn-rape to get at least one kill in a round. Those players would back-stab with a two-hander, or stick with the mob with a polearm. Its part of the game, actually its the core of battle. To find another way to kill a guy you cant beat in a 1 vs 1. For footmen you call it "teamwork", for cavalry you call it "overpowered". But its the same: cowardliness for the losing, cunning for the winning.

3) Rangers feed on cavalry.
Unarmored horses die in 2 shots.
But rangers are so stubborn, they rather shoot shielders on foot than wasting an arrow/ bolt on a horse.

4) Pikemen (and competent 2handers) feed on cavalry.
Sooner or later people will learn to carry a pike.
Maybe its time to allow to carry a pike in your pocket? Not very realistic, but swinging a huge axe like a pencil or feint-spam-swing-stab with a greatsword(and many other things) are physically impossible and are in the game as well, so why not sheath-able pikes like it always had been (and in native still is).

5) Remove horse-knockdown. Its ridiculious that an unarmored horse with the incredible speed of about 1 mph can circle around and knockdown a man in full armor. Some sort of stagger/ stun would be all right, but knockdown is ridiculous.
Riding your courser into a group of infantry should always lead to your death, no matter how competent the footmen are. Right now, I often see a guy on a courser lancing one footman, then bumping several armored guys (usually knock-down for the whole group) and escaping. Thats silly. I am thinking about a char with 13 shield skill on a courser and let the elephant return, this time as white one. Cavalry should do their cav-fights away from the infantry, then the winning side should support their infantry against the remaining foes. But as long as a courser (or destrier) is the best knockdown-weapon in game, why would exploiters change their play-style?
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: bruce on July 14, 2012, 10:08:22 am
it will affect your reloading speed + accuracy

Yes it does boost accuracy and reload, but not damage. Maybe you get better chances in the random number generator but it doesn't boost damage in the classical straightforward way wpf boosts damage for other weapons.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: dodnet on July 14, 2012, 10:13:49 am
Last days at battle servers cav is always on top of scoreboard.

This has always been.


My ultimate suggestion: Remove couch on all lances except the couchonly ones. And remove one of the horses legs.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: _Tak_ on July 14, 2012, 10:14:11 am
Yes it does boost accuracy and reload, but not damage. Maybe you get better chances in the random number generator but it doesn't boost damage in the classical straightforward way wpf boosts damage for other weapons.

so wpf only increase minor damage on melee weapons but not ranged got it ;d
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: bruce on July 14, 2012, 10:14:45 am
Actually on ranged too but not crossbow, for unknown reason (realism?).

It still makes you much more accurate then without it, quicker reload and for horse crossbows agi enables you to get HA skill which is everything.

Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: dodnet on July 14, 2012, 10:21:09 am
3) Rangers feed on cavalry.
Unarmored horses die in 2 shots.

Lies.

4) Pikemen (and competent 2handers) feed on cavalry.
Sooner or later people will learn to carry a pike.
Maybe its time to allow to carry a pike in your pocket? Not very realistic, but swinging a huge axe like a pencil or feint-spam-swing-stab with a greatsword(and many other things) are physically impossible and are in the game as well, so why not sheath-able pikes like it always had been (and in native still is).

No. Im polearmer and I like that not everyone is carrying a pike as backup.

5) Remove horse-knockdown. Its ridiculious that an unarmored horse with the incredible speed of about 1 mph can circle around and knockdown a man in full armor. Some sort of stagger/ stun would be all right, but knockdown is ridiculous.
Riding your courser into a group of infantry should always lead to your death, no matter how competent the footmen are.

Seems you have never seen a horse in real life. If you manage to charge with a horse in a group of people, most of them would get thrown somewhere and get wounded.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: bruce on July 14, 2012, 10:26:26 am
I would be very surprised if I saw any unarmoured horse actually die in two arrows ingame, bar some gimmick str archer which has the accuracy of a blind crossbowman in rain after being hit on the head with a mallet.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 14, 2012, 10:29:16 am
How does Michael not have a custom title yet is beyond me.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Tibe on July 14, 2012, 11:07:24 am
Teamplay....

Thats why I joined Deserters. When there are alot of us in battle, its always tight infantry watching eachothers backs. Often I always had a clanmate aiming a pike and frightening cav behind me so I can run on the field feeling safe.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Overdriven on July 14, 2012, 12:17:59 pm
A thousand times no.

HA have always been a natural counter to cav. Guess what happens when HA gets nerfed into the ground time after time  :)
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: bruce on July 14, 2012, 12:27:53 pm
HA have always been a natural counter to cav. Guess what happens when HA gets nerfed into the ground time after time  :)

HA and foot archers. Both have been nerfed so many, many times.

However, flat out HA / HX buff is a problem. They should always be inferior to foot ranged for the sake of balance, else... you have problems.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Adamar on July 14, 2012, 02:57:33 pm
I voted op horses, because naked horses surviving headshots from longbows is weird at best.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Michael on July 14, 2012, 05:32:15 pm
Lies.
No. Im polearmer and I like that not everyone is carrying a pike as backup.

So how do you know how many arrows a horse can survive when all you ever did is crawl around on ground with the biggest stick you could find?
I play cavalry once in a while. And I have never seen my desert horse survive more than two arrows. And I am not a beginner like you. When my horse gets shot, its about a really loooooooooooooong distance.

Quote
Seems you have never seen a horse in real life. If you manage to charge with a horse in a group of people, most of them would get thrown somewhere and get wounded.

Young one, my family has four horses, I know to ride, but thats not the point. Now of course they are not trained to rush into a group of soldiers, but even if you would get a horse to do so, its silly to think they had some magical ebony/dragon skin that would protect them when they run at insane speed into iron/ steel. They would be wounded, too. Most likely they would break their legs, and go nowhere after the crash.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Riddaren on July 14, 2012, 05:45:40 pm
Don't make a poll without options for everyone. I disagree with all of them.
Besides I don't think melee cavalry is OP. I have never had problems fighting them no matter what class I play.
Horse archers and horse crossbowmen however are really tough to deal with but I don't think they are OP. They are just annoying.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Lizard_man on July 14, 2012, 05:52:17 pm
I don't think cavalry is op, there just seems to be an increase of cavalry recently. Plus you see alot of cavalry working together in groups...
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: _Tak_ on July 14, 2012, 06:34:15 pm
Since you added a new option i cannot change my poll now you asshole
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on July 14, 2012, 06:56:15 pm
NERF CAAAAV
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Richter on July 14, 2012, 07:23:41 pm
I play as both cav and pikeman.

People think cav is too strong?
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Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: FrugFrug on July 14, 2012, 09:18:08 pm
Only thing I don't like about cav is the bumps.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: ROHYPNOL on July 14, 2012, 10:05:26 pm
lol buff archery really? have you seen aderyn or the other hospitaller copycats... they shoot throwing lances.. and by that i mean that his arrows do no less damage than throwing lances... and this is not an exaggeration... if anything change throwing so higher pt does more damage.. not this bullshit where wpf makes up for damage so people only need 4 or 5 pt to do the same amount of damage you can with 10 pt.. oh and and archers and throwers also run way too fast for shooting that hard.. anderyn 3 shots a cata and blackbars a arabian.. half the time 1 shotting it.. its called getting better aim for you archers that suck
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: polkafranzi on July 15, 2012, 03:34:35 am
Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?

L2play.

Easiest fix I know of  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on July 15, 2012, 06:29:10 am
REMOVE THEIR LEGS!

Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Turboflex on July 15, 2012, 07:24:28 am
cav is OP. It's supposed to be balanced by extra cost, but cost is a weak balance now cuz people can sell loompoints for 600k to fund expensive cav chars.

Cav needs more downside, right now it's just a huge power enhancer.

IMO riders should take heavy damage when dehorsed, especially at high speed. This would add more risk to playing cav, cuz right now there's just a good chance they get dehorsed, dust off and then fight on as infantry.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Dexxtaa on July 15, 2012, 07:47:06 am
REMOVE THEIR LEGS!

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Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: genric on July 15, 2012, 10:01:56 am
Honestly I think everything is pretty balanced, except xbow they can all burn away, it's just that people don't work together. two handers charge first trying to get their kills, archers fire and whatever target they can rarely helping a duel because if they hit an ally they often immediately get m'ed, and horses run around trying to hit people from behind. (except Xeen during his horse phase when he just put his shield up and charge into groups with the plated charger)

The cure is teamwork and if you want even a remote amount of teamwork play siege. Less horses and people actually fight harder to win rather then get the top score and say everyone else sucks, though you can't escape that kind of attitude where you go.

If you want the best balance, with less horses, no archers, and even teams? Play chess.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Adamar on July 15, 2012, 03:31:17 pm
I say, reduce bump damage, but increase it drasticly when the target is in mid-air, so that jump-slashing has some stern consequences. It's realistic considering that the target would fall on his back, which is why I assume people wouldn't just go around jump-slashing horsemen IRL.

Either reduce bump damage or increase head damage.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: LordBerenger on July 15, 2012, 03:37:05 pm
You keep forgetting horsies got 0 leg armor so getting above Destrier/Warhorse is a waste.

When a 1 PS pitchfork peasant can rape your Plated Charger/Cata in 3-4 (5) Hits you know it's fucked up. I don't care bout realism (no leg armor) but add it dammit and make the heavy horses worth it. Don't complain bout arab/courser lancers when heavy horses are shiet and their legs get number one priority by aimbotting archer my old friends.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Adamar on July 15, 2012, 03:39:21 pm
Horse legs are very hard to shoot you dumbass, that's meant for melee.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: LordBerenger on July 15, 2012, 03:40:19 pm
Horse legs are very hard to shoot you dumbass, that's meant for melee.

Not if you're not a newbie. And pitchfork peasants...
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Adamar on July 15, 2012, 03:57:58 pm
Not if you're not a high accuracy, low damage build. And pitchfork peasants...

Knowing a bit about the class helps.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: LordBerenger on July 15, 2012, 04:59:53 pm
Knowing a bit about the class helps.

And pitchfork peasants...

And pitchfork peasants...

And pitchfork peasants...

And pitchfork peasants...

And pitchfork peasants...
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: tizzango on July 15, 2012, 05:05:13 pm
But teamwork is rare when working with pubs since there isn't a formation or looking out for others thing going on. People want their kills and want the glory more than they do working with others.[/spoiler]


+1  mother trucker.

Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Adamar on July 15, 2012, 05:17:50 pm
And pitchfork peasants...

Hell if I care about peasants, they dont last long in the battlefield, so they could use some advantages. Any horseman who engages a polearm is either a fool, or taking a calculated risk, and pitchforks are tiny.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Achelous on July 15, 2012, 06:34:47 pm
nerf everything this game blows now
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: STOPHammerTime on July 15, 2012, 06:47:21 pm
I still think if you made throwing weapons explode on impact this whole problem would disappear!
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: TurmoilTom on July 15, 2012, 06:48:15 pm
I still think if you made throwing weapons explode on impact this whole problem would disappear!

inb4firebombs
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: RiPLeY_II on July 15, 2012, 07:25:15 pm
Plese, lets be analystic.

Cav is OP, everyone knows it, and it MUST BE OP. That's why men started riding horses on combat ... it they weren't OP, they would have left horses for the countrywork. They need a few tweaks, like cavmen getting damage when horse die and they fell 10 meters long, or the excessive, outstanding maneuvrability of the sarranid horses, or getting damage from stomping into a wall (these aren't nerfs, as they have no effect on a "proper" cavman, that doesn't go suiciding into walls or great groups to fall soon) ... but just minor tweaks, the way they work is the way they should.

So what's the problem? The problem is THE NUMBER OF CAV PLAYERS ON A SERVER AT A TIME, when a team have like 25 cavmen at a time, teamwork is useless as you'll be getting raped by horses on every direction, constantly bumped, and pikes are not a fix for that, every veteran player knows it as we've suffered/succeded on each side. Also, the awful autobalance system, that doesn't take into account your "class" when balancing, doesn't help at all.

So, the only thing that's needed to be fixed is that. Just cap the number of cav players  allowed to spawn to 10-15% of total players on a team and problem solved (with a horse in their equipment, they could spawn without it) ...

PD: +1 if you like the idea.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Havoco on July 15, 2012, 07:30:40 pm
Well, one thing that could be added without nerfing cav directly would be wooden stakes. It's been suggested many times before,but with the increasing amount of ppl thinking cav is op, it may be something the devs should seriously consider.

Maybe put them in stacks of 2-3 and 1 would cover the height  of a person.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: v/onMega on July 15, 2012, 07:36:08 pm
A possible fix:

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Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Elio on July 15, 2012, 07:44:10 pm
They removed whistle for cav, is it a new feature or another 'bug' like jump shot back?
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: LordBerenger on July 15, 2012, 07:48:41 pm
So what's the problem? The problem is THE NUMBER OF CAV PLAYERS ON A SERVER AT A TIME, when a team have like 25 cavmen at a time, teamwork is useless as you'll be getting raped by horses on every direction, constantly bumped, and pikes are not a fix for that, every veteran player knows it as we've suffered/succeded on each side. Also, the awful autobalance system, that doesn't take into account your "class" when balancing, doesn't help at all.

So, the only thing that's needed to be fixed is that. Just cap the number of cav players  allowed to spawn to 10-15% of total players on a team and problem solved (with a horse in their equipment, they could spawn without it) ...


That's the gayest suggestion ever. Tons of butthurt melee foot kids have proposed the same with archers/HX/HA and cav as you just did and it's fail because you would basically make it impossible for players to play their classes just because uber race melee'ers wants to circle jerk eachother.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Adamar on July 15, 2012, 07:54:18 pm
Yeah, a class based ballancer would be better, so that cav would be busy killing each other.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: RiPLeY_II on July 15, 2012, 07:57:31 pm

That's the gayest suggestion ever. Tons of butthurt melee foot kids have proposed the same with archers/HX/HA and cav as you just did and it's fail because you would basically make it impossible for players to play their classes just because uber race melee'ers wants to circle jerk eachother.

1st: you seem to be calling a proposal "gay" just because you don't like it. Look into your brain man, maybe showing your repressed in-thoughts? ... please, be a little more serious when trying to argument ... you have no arguments at all, while i argumented my opinion ...

Yes, it's neccesary not to let people choose and play at their will with AN OP CLASS, REMEMBER.

Just to put an example, in those 1st person shooters that you can take vehicles, you have to gain access to the vehicle first, and there are just a few of them on the fields, SO NOT EVERYONE USES THEM. If you could spawn with a helicopter or a tank, every player would do it, because on foot, you are meat. So they put a few and scattered through the map, so the player have to win access to them, and you have players on foot everytime in-game, on normal multiplayer game modes and maps.

So a horse is a huge advantage, and as a huge advantage, there should be just a few of them on the field. Another option is that no player spawn with a horse, and in each team there is a fixed amount of "free horses" that players can mount.

What is clear now, is that the mod allows you to play a favored-class with near to no sacrifice at all (excepting upkeep, which is not, by all terms, a huge sacrifice).
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Bryggan on July 15, 2012, 08:07:48 pm
The only reason cav seems op is because infantry without Teamspeak can't communicate.  As a thrower/shielder I try protect the rear from menacing cav, and usually there are some archers and some pikemen there too.  This usually keeps the enemy cav far away until we accidentally get separated (It's hard focusing on enemy cav, friendly cav, fellow anti-cav, and the main body of attacking infantry all at once) and some lancer sneaks through and takes out a couple guys who thought their backs were safe.  I hate watching those poor bastards get skewered as I'm looking for the 'Q' button, then the... um... next button, then that third one which I never get to because by then I'm skewered for not paying attention.  This doesn't really matter, because half the attacking infantry use 'Cavalry from behind!" as their battle cry (the rest are divided into "I'm manning the catapults!" and "I'm defending the stairs!").

Still, i do love it when the situation coincidently lends itself to good teamwork, and I run back and forth helping the advancing infantry in the front and keeping the cav at bay in the rear, and then there is that glorious moment when the enemy cav gets impatient, or desparate, and foolishly tries to break through.  I can't imagine any moment in cRPG that is more exhilirating than standing your ground then head-shotting a cav charging right at you, or watching some enemy cav rearing up from a pike thrust, then quickly getting swarmed.  After that, there is that immensely satisfying time of hunting down the few remaining enemy; especially, as a thrower, of tossing jarids into the back of a kiting archer.

So cav is fine in my eyes, I just wish there was a better command system.  I myself can't think of anything, except perma-banning anyone who abuses the voice commands (except for that sexy female 'hello' voice, I never get tired of that).

Oh, and buff me.  No one else though.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: LordBerenger on July 15, 2012, 08:07:59 pm
1st: you seem to be calling a proposal "gay" just because you don't like it. Look into your brain man, maybe showing your repressed in-thoughts? ... please, be a little more serious when trying to argument ... you have no arguments at all, while i argumented my opinion ...

Yes, it's neccesary not to let people choose and play at their will with AN OP CLASS, REMEMBER.

Just to put an example, in those 1st person shooters that you can take vehicles, you have to gain access to the vehicle first, and there are just a few of them on the fields, SO NOT EVERYONE USES THEM. If you could spawn with a helicopter or a tank, every player would do it, because on foot, you are meat. So they put a few and scattered through the map, so the player have to win access to them, and you have players on foot everytime in-game, on normal multiplayer game modes and maps.

So a horse is a huge advantage, and as a huge advantage, there should be just a few of them on the field. Another option is that no player spawn with a horse, and in each team there is a fixed amount of "free horses" that players can mount.

What is clear now, is that the mod allows you to play a favored-class with near to no sacrifice at all (excepting upkeep, which is not, by all terms, a huge sacrifice).

Since i'm not in the mood or have time to argue with a melee elitist i will just say one thing.

FUCK OFF.


Thank you.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: RiPLeY_II on July 15, 2012, 08:08:52 pm
Since i'm not in the mood or have time to argue with a melee elitist i will just say one thing.

FUCK OFF.


Thank you.

Pretty Clear.

You just pictured yourself.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Adamar on July 15, 2012, 10:16:27 pm
Ripley, horses where historicaly op, but the rider also had a lot of skill to do what he did, and it doesn't take a lot of skill to collect kills as cav in crpg.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on July 15, 2012, 10:35:53 pm
Plese, lets be analystic.

Cav is OP, everyone knows it, and it MUST BE OP. That's why men started riding horses on combat ... it they weren't OP, they would have left horses for the countrywork. They need a few tweaks, like cavmen getting damage when horse die and they fell 10 meters long, or the excessive, outstanding maneuvrability of the sarranid horses, or getting damage from stomping into a wall (these aren't nerfs, as they have no effect on a "proper" cavman, that doesn't go suiciding into walls or great groups to fall soon) ... but just minor tweaks, the way they work is the way they should.

So what's the problem? The problem is THE NUMBER OF CAV PLAYERS ON A SERVER AT A TIME, when a team have like 25 cavmen at a time, teamwork is useless as you'll be getting raped by horses on every direction, constantly bumped, and pikes are not a fix for that, every veteran player knows it as we've suffered/succeded on each side. Also, the awful autobalance system, that doesn't take into account your "class" when balancing, doesn't help at all.

So, the only thing that's needed to be fixed is that. Just cap the number of cav players  allowed to spawn to 10-15% of total players on a team and problem solved (with a horse in their equipment, they could spawn without it) ...

PD: +1 if you like the idea.


Better yet! lets cap the amount of 2h spammers to umm say 2% I think I'm being generous there  :)


On a serious note if you want to cap one class then the amount of people playing ranged, thrower, piker, 2her 1h+shield will go up and then you and others will call for a % cap on another class and so on and so forth, telling people what class they can and can't play is not the way forward. If I wanted to be told what class to play Id ask someone, I don't want to be told I can't play archer, cav thrower or any class just because people are butthurt and fail to work as a team. there are plenty of ways to take down cav and if you can't think of any......well then boohoo for you lifes a bitch get over it.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: BD_SUPERBEAST on July 16, 2012, 03:15:44 am
 Rise (a bit) cav upkeep(which should work as another money sink given that devs look for money sinks too), thats another option which can be combined with some "tweaking gameplay" options also. I have 2 cav alts(which i have played for some generations) and i always managed to do money with my lancer and lose a bit or break even with the 2h heavy cav. This should be combined with some special cav balancing(like avoiding the common situation when there are 25 cavs on one team and 4 on the other on full server).

Biggest cause of the amount of cav lately comes probably from the ability to pass money between alts,so anyone with a inf alt can easily make money with it and pass it to his cav alt and still break even or gain money anyway.... Which leads to everyone having a cav alt and using it on all cav maps(big amount of cav maps also imo),which leads to pissing of anyone not mounted.

Before all idiotic comments about melee elitism, i like cav,i like to play cav as much as i like to play the majority of other classes. Only class i didnt play is xbow(find it very boring from my point of view,and not in the mood to try it).

Its curious when the people that takes every ocassion to cry about melee elitism are mostly the same people who only play cav or any other class for hundreds of generations...and still many of them are crap when they fall of the horse. Hilarious.

So my opinion: Dont nerf cav,but do something to equilibrate it on the teams(this would be good for any class if u ask me),and rise upkeep a bit cause i dont care what anyone says, its not hard to make money with it or nearly break even except u using high tier shields and/or high tier armor+high tier 2ndary all the time.

Oh i almost forgot it, Arabian horse its still able to do some silly moves. Combined with 8 or more riding it surpasses the edge of opness.













Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Rhekimos on July 16, 2012, 03:33:02 am
There's a lot of whining about cav, so let's make another thread whining about cav to celebrate this.

Hooray.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: BD_SUPERBEAST on July 16, 2012, 03:36:23 am
Really constructive,i like ur arguments.

Twice hooray.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Rhekimos on July 16, 2012, 03:43:07 am
Really constructive,i like ur arguments.

Twice hooray.

I don't mind yours. If you looked hard, you might notice that a lot of whining doesn't mean that there's something wrong. Just players who ran into situations they found annoying and unfair. No amount of nerfing or raising upkeep costs will end that.

A morphine drip might, though.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on July 16, 2012, 04:19:46 am
Don't boost horse upkeep. You asshole, I want to actually ride the fucking thing, which is hard enough now. An infantryman can use very nice equipment without suffering retarded money rape. Cav should be able to do the same, too.

Destrier, Courser, and Arabian are the "decent" horses. Things other than those suck, and things more than those are OP. Well, they would be if their legs weren't gigantic self-destruct buttons.

None of this will matter when I sell a loompoint this gen, finally. A few more weeks of play, then money will never matter again. Which makes sense. I mean, why shouldn't I be able to all but ignore a game "balancing" mechanic?
-----------------------------------------------------

And, as I've said before, cavalry's number one counters in cRPG are teamwork and awareness. An aware player can avoid a charging horse, or attack it. A friendly pikeman that is made aware of the presence of a flanking enemy cavalryman via effective communication is able to fuck up horses.

Awareness is mostly up to the player, as he/she is responsible for listening/looking for cav. Though, the way horse-hooves sound in game can be a little off. Really, I think it's ok in cRPG.

As Bryggan points out, however, the lack of in-game VOIP means that infantry can't communicate fast enough. This is the biggest issue with regards too communication, really. Either have a cRPG public TS (fuck Ventrilo) that anyone can join, or somehow put VOIP into the actual game using powerful development magics.

Or nerf cav into oblivion. Fuck it, if you can't fix it right, you just gotta fix it dead.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: RiPLeY_II on July 16, 2012, 12:46:02 pm

Better yet! lets cap the amount of 2h spammers to umm say 2% I think I'm being generous there  :)


On a serious note if you want to cap one class then the amount of people playing ranged, thrower, piker, 2her 1h+shield will go up and then you and others will call for a % cap on another class and so on and so forth, telling people what class they can and can't play is not the way forward. If I wanted to be told what class to play Id ask someone, I don't want to be told I can't play archer, cav thrower or any class just because people are butthurt and fail to work as a team. there are plenty of ways to take down cav and if you can't think of any......well then boohoo for you lifes a bitch get over it.

I'm not saying you can't play cav, I'm just suggesting a regulation on the number of simultaneous cav playing, due to its superior performance compared to other classes.

All of you that say "I want to play the class, don't cap the number" are just thinking on yourselves and not in general. An op class must always be regulated in order to get balance. It's not that strange or new, it's used in almost every succesful gaming formula. Some players fun shouldn't be put over all the others ...

It's fair that you play cav, but not all the time and with nearly no cost. That way, every "maxer" will end up playing cav, which ruins every other player fun ... remember, cav is not the problem, the problem is the overcrowd of cavmen.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: bruce on July 16, 2012, 01:34:47 pm
Horse upkeep is fine / high anyway.

I mean, yes, you can naturally "cheat" the upkeep system by playing rageball / inf alt / whatever. The idea of balancing things with upkeep is just doomed to fail. Players should not find it impossible to normally play on a decent horse (esp. Rounceys and such) with semidecent gear; if someone wants to play cavalry he should be able to use a passable horse and passable gear without having to resort to boring gold farming. Likewise, "more town maps" isn't really the solution.

A better approach is making more open maps, and then balancing things so ranged infantry / melee infantry / cavalry is all playable and balanced on open maps. Firstly, it is easier to balance that way, because you don't have to consider the plethora of situations, but instead balance it on one. Secondly, it leads to more fun to play maps, because we can actually play randomized maps instead of the same old (and often crap) maps all the time. Thirdly, that way everyone has "fun" all the time, instead of some classes just suiciding / not playing their class / not bothering to spawn through certain maps.

Autobalancer should try to balance the numbers by class, somehow; that would prevent the obvious problems when one team has all the ranged / all the cavalry which is a problem on more open maps which demand more teamplay between classes as opposed to random charge zerg circle running crap of town "circle" maps.

As for horses, there are ways to "fix" imbalances, depending on what role you want cavalry to play. I would really like to see sensible, open battlefields as the norm and then cavalry balanced based on those.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on July 16, 2012, 04:21:04 pm
I'm not saying you can't play cav, I'm just suggesting a regulation on the number of simultaneous cav playing, due to its superior performance compared to other classes.

All of you that say "I want to play the class, don't cap the number" are just thinking on yourselves and not in general. An op class must always be regulated in order to get balance. It's not that strange or new, it's used in almost every succesful gaming formula. Some players fun shouldn't be put over all the others ...

It's fair that you play cav, but not all the time and with nearly no cost. That way, every "maxer" will end up playing cav, which ruins every other player fun ... remember, cav is not the problem, the problem is the overcrowd of cavmen.

I was on my 2h cav yesterday on EU_4 there was 3 cav on my team including me and about 3 on the other team and there was about under 20 people on the server, me and the other two cav saw a small group of inf running into the middle of the map (it was a pretty open map) we went to attack and you know what happened.......we dropped like flys, they had two spearmen NO not pikers spearmen one had an ashwood pike the other had a boar spear and us horsemen had our horses killed and as we fell to the ground just as we stood up we got raped by the inf that was with the two spearmen. Now this group was about 4-5 people large and took down 3 cav in under 15 seconds....thats pretty dam fast and you know why they did so well? because they WORKED TOGETHER and was paying ATTENTION  they wasn't trying to get kills nor be rambos they actually worked together and they wasn't even clan members they were all random people (although ___Bjorn___ was on their team and he tries to get teamwork going...)

"I want to play the class, don't cap the number" are just thinking on yourselves and not in general.

That is the most stupid thing I have ever heard...... I'm being selfish because I want to play my favorite class? oh I'm sorry, next time I kill someone as cav and they bitch about it Ill leave and come on an alt, will that be better? and if I'm on say....my ranged character do I have to leave if someone bitches about me killing them on that to? Yeah thats really the way to balance the game  :rolleyes:

It's fair that you play cav, but not all the time and with nearly no cost. That way, every "maxer" will end up playing cav, which ruins every other player fun ... remember, cav is not the problem, the problem is the overcrowd of cavmen.

have you even played cav? (bearing in mind the fairy horse also known as the "arabian" does not count as a real horse) the upkeep on my destrier is 1K+ thats on its own now add my armor, weapon boots, helmet, gloves, second weapon on top. Although I will admit they wont all break at once however if my horse breaks and my secondary weapon then my upkeep is 2k+ it doesn't sound like alot but having that once every few rounds with just those two breaking.....yeah it kinda adds up to alot of gold.

Also if its not fair to play cav all the time then what about the other classes? its ok for them to play inf and ranged all the time but its not ok for cav to play cav all the time.....yeah thats very fair and not siding with one class other another at all  :rolleyes:

If the problem is the amount of cav on at once then yes it will and can be annoying, but you think its just annoying for the people on foot? WRONG other cav will be just as annoyed as someone who died on foot will be if their killed by another cav. I personally hate cav vs cav fights as its a 50-50% chance that you will win or die its annoying that if he times it just a second better then me then I'm fucked. Cav vs cav fights are to risky so I avoid them if I can as I want to survive the round.

One last point, if cav ruins everyones fun don't you think it wouldn't be in the game? plus don't you think ranged annoy 2hers??? Are they next on the list to have a "limit" put on them  :?:
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 16, 2012, 04:30:37 pm
Cav's not OP, infantry's ability to work as a team and use tactics is the where the problem lies.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: BD_SUPERBEAST on July 16, 2012, 04:40:04 pm
Seems you both lack reading skills,so i will not continue with this nonsense.

Obviously whinning will continue forever about everything,but that doesnt mean theres nothing that can be improved. That is not an argument. You lack of arguments.

A Danish upkeep is +1k also.
Horses under destrier are not totally crap as u present them.Maybe u dont know how to use a horse and u need a +3 horse to rape a peasant.Gratz.

If you are not able to play cav and still do some money,u simply suck at money management or are using high tier everything all the time.

And if you often run into a group with 5 man which has 2 pikeman,you know , youre not good cav. Are u whinning about pikeman?,whats your point?.


Who in the cav elitism group is against blancing cav between teams?. Man up, just say it and stop using nonsense bullshit to prove nothing.

Ive seen teams with 15-20 cavs and about 5 cavs in the other team plenty of times. And u know what, if those 15-20 cavs are not retarded suicidal cavs, and they wait for their infantry to nearly clash with the enemy infantry,they got the round almost 100% of the time. If youre cav and havent noticed this kind of things. Uninstall. Its not about nerfing cavs.Its about having interesting rounds most of the time for everyone,  dumbasses.

I would not nerf cav ,im not against bumps,im not against bump lancing bump slashing,couching,etc,etc. So if u wanna argue do it properly.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: dynamike on July 16, 2012, 04:48:17 pm
I can top the scoreboards as both infantry and cav.

That being said, it is much easier to be on the top as cav. The simple reason: more mobility, easier access to "easy" targets.

My cav playstyle as light lancer (courser, only lance, no shield, no sidearm) is high risk/high reward. Either I kill 5-10 people a round when I get lucky, or don't get a single kill when I don't get lucky and I die at the beginning of the round.

All it takes is ONE good archer/thrower/pikeman to nullify me.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: LordBerenger on July 16, 2012, 04:50:07 pm
Does Herp equal Derpes?  :?

What they most likely meant is that cav under Destrier are the most used ones and cav over Destrier are rarely used in comparison as armor equals shit.


Also i'm not against balancing cav between both teams but i am against a feature that limits amount of cav per SERVER which would mean that somebody who wants to play their cav char cannot because serv's full of cav already.

¿Comprende?
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: bonekuukkeli on July 16, 2012, 05:04:44 pm
Cav limits per server? No way! If you want such limits, you should add IQ limit in game and make people to read basic tactics guides before allowing them to enter in servers.

If you move around without pike, shield, throwing, bow, xbow or ANY long weapon.... and you want to move around solo or just too lazy to look behind...  can't jump or downblock... you should die to horses yes and it doesn't mean they are OP.

Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Vkvkvk on July 16, 2012, 05:39:11 pm
All it takes is ONE good archer/thrower/pikeman to nullify me.

Defensive counters, you can easily ignore said one "good" archer/thrower/pikeman by just steering somewhere else and go kill the rest of the enemy team by engaging your stealth-hooves drive and hyper-space drive.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: dynamike on July 16, 2012, 05:43:52 pm
Defensive counters, you can easily ignore said one "good" archer/thrower/pikeman by just steering somewhere else and go kill the rest of the enemy team by engaging your stealth-hooves drive and hyper-space drive.

That would be true... if the "good" archer/thrower/pikeman would not stay with his team. Which is what happens most of the time: segregation is the best case scenario for enemy cav  :wink:
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Vkvkvk on July 16, 2012, 05:55:15 pm
That would be true... if the "good" archer/thrower/pikeman would not stay with his team. Which is what happens most of the time: segregation is the best case scenario for enemy cav  :wink:

You can still just ignore the "good" archer/thrower/pikeman that stays with a portion of his team and just kill the oblivious remaining half as there's always a huge portion of the team just totally jacking off and being stupid.

As a cavalry you can pick your battles, there just so happen to be so many easy battles. As anything else, you can't really pick your battles, you have to fight what's there, unless you've got the athletic to retreat (Which will get you shot anyhow), you'll have to deal with what's infront of you and fight it and quite likely die. You can't just press W and run your way to victory.

Certain horses are ridiculously durable too I must say, the Destrier comes to mind with his invisible armor.

Was playing NA_1 on a boring morning and there was this hospitaller guy on his Champion Destrier. A certain round in particular, he got Piked twice while being surrounded by infantry and got to ride away into the sunset BOTH times because of the stupid bump by unknown forces surrounding the horse, or maybe it's only the air displaced by the horse causing shockwaves and knocking infantry away. Cue to 15 seconds later, he crashed right into a wall and got reared surrounded by no less than 9 of us, what happened? Rode away into the sunset of course. Only much later during "MoTF" did we kill him. Keep in mind that was all in the same god damned round.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 16, 2012, 06:04:43 pm
Defensive counters, you can easily ignore said one "good" archer/thrower/pikeman by just steering somewhere else and go kill the rest of the enemy team by engaging your stealth-hooves drive and hyper-space drive.

That's the point.  If people stay near the archer/xbow/thrower or pikemen cavalry is pretty much rendered useless. That doesn't make cavalry overpowered because someone runs off by themselves and makes themselves an easy target.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: dynamike on July 16, 2012, 06:06:30 pm
You can still just ignore the "good" archer/thrower/pikeman that stays with a portion of his team and just kill the oblivious remaining half as there's always a huge portion of the team just totally jacking off and being stupid.

As a cavalry you can pick your battles, there just so happen to be so many easy battles.

That's pretty much exactly what I said as well  :D

There are a few notable exceptions, for example Robin Longstride as an archer, he would pick a hill and pepper my horse half way across the map. Doesn't get him kills, but prevents me from mopping up his team. Not many are making this sacrifice, but it's effective.

Don't worry, my paper courser is anything but durable. But I agree that heavy cav gets away with too much at times.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on July 16, 2012, 06:09:08 pm
Seems you both lack reading skills,so i will not continue with this nonsense.

Obviously whinning will continue forever about everything,but that doesnt mean theres nothing that can be improved. That is not an argument. You lack of arguments.

A Danish upkeep is +1k also.
Horses under destrier are not totally crap as u present them.Maybe u dont know how to use a horse and u need a +3 horse to rape a peasant.Gratz.

If you are not able to play cav and still do some money,u simply suck at money management or are using high tier everything all the time.

And if you often run into a group with 5 man which has 2 pikeman,you know , youre not good cav. Are u whinning about pikeman?,whats your point?.


Who in the cav elitism group is against blancing cav between teams?. Man up, just say it and stop using nonsense bullshit to prove nothing.

Ive seen teams with 15-20 cavs and about 5 cavs in the other team plenty of times. And u know what, if those 15-20 cavs are not retarded suicidal cavs, and they wait for their infantry to nearly clash with the enemy infantry,they got the round almost 100% of the time. If youre cav and havent noticed this kind of things. Uninstall. Its not about nerfing cavs.Its about having interesting rounds most of the time for everyone,  dumbasses.

I would not nerf cav ,im not against bumps,im not against bump lancing bump slashing,couching,etc,etc. So if u wanna argue do it properly.

Im not saying cav needs a buff, thats the last thing cav need atm but it doesn't need a nerf either maybe some tweaks but my main point is putting a limit on one class is a really stupid way of trying to balance things out, if one class gets a limit put on it for how many are allowed on per server then sooner or later another class will have the limit put on and it won't do anything but increase the amount of players playing the class that doesn't have a limit.

No I'm not whining about pikes, what im saying is a spearmen and pikemen are there to harass infantry and keep enemy cav away.

Yes having a fair amount of cav per team would be ok but nothing will ever be fully equal, it would be nice to see cav balanced out on teams some times but other times it would be nice to keep it random as it SHOULD encourage people to work as a team, but I forget a majority of random players in cRPG are just kill hungry kids  :wink:

I agree with you that nerfing is not the way forward and neither is buffs perhaps tweaking is? I dont know how to "fix" cav like some people are QQing for but I don't see how putting a limit for the amount of cav per server will balance it out
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: bruce on July 16, 2012, 06:32:09 pm
Making a class unable to be played is a bad choice... it would be a shame if being a horseman would be something you can "only" afford every tenth round, or after selling heirlooms (heh). Or subject to limitations regarding how many are allowed, or forcing a lot of town maps.

That said, vkvkvkvk has a fair point about high-endurance horses. They are too forgiving, the +3 horses, even arabian, can survive running into a spear / pike and turn away far too often. Given that you do NOT survive being lanced by one, it is poorly balanced in that regard. As far as I know, the forcefield from blocking is going to get looked at, which is another good thing.

My suggestion is, balance the game around open maps (and give us more of them). All classes (well, ok, horse ranged maybe should remain hard to use) should be playable and should have fairly equal chances to do well on them if played well. There are ways of making cavalry more vulnerable to counters (but less vulnerable to things which are not supposed to be counters), but the class should not be restricted artifically.

Autobalancer trying to balance by class is naturally a good thing; when one side has too many of this or that class stacked (typically, good archers or cavalry) it makes the game not very enjoyable to play, as the natural counters to this or that are not available.


Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Strider on July 16, 2012, 06:34:09 pm
Dam guys why you gotta downvote my post...
I didn't even state that cav are OP. I'm just offering discussions about why people think they are...
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: _Tak_ on July 16, 2012, 06:37:21 pm
Dam guys why you gotta downvote my post...
I didn't even state that cav are OP. I'm just offering discussions about why people think they are...

Cav seems OP is what you said. Because of your lovely thread the dev completely make whistle become useless, now none of the horse will listen to whistle anymore, and all of them get slaughtered by horse haters.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Strider on July 16, 2012, 06:40:04 pm
Cav seems OP is what you said. Because of your lovely thread the dev completely make whistle become useless, now none of the horse will listen to whistle anymore, and all of them get slaughtered by horse haters.
No. I said "Cav Seems OP?" QUESTION MARK. It's called initiating an oppurtunity for opinions and discussions.
It's not my fault the whistle got removed. Well crap i'll change the dam title if it offends you so much.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on July 16, 2012, 06:47:25 pm
Cav seems OP is what you said. Because of your lovely thread the dev completely make whistle become useless, now none of the horse will listen to whistle anymore, and all of them get slaughtered by horse haters.

OOOOOH so that's why its pointless to whistle now..... I wondered why

wow thanks for that -.-  :evil: :evil:
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Rhekimos on July 16, 2012, 06:53:15 pm
Dam guys why you gotta downvote my post...
I didn't even state that cav are OP. I'm just offering discussions about why people think they are...

"Cav seems OP? How to fix this?"

You didn't explicitly say that cav is OP. Just that it's a problem. And the suggested solutions to the problem is buffing archery and pikes.

"They are argued to be the dominant class in this state of crpg."

You dance around the issue, using weasel language just like this.

"I've been seeing more and more complaints about cavalry buffness and "Cav OP" / "Cav Nerf" threads.
There are becoming increasingly larger amounts of cavalry in our servers. Sometmes around 10-15 per team on a full server."

Here you obviously describe the problem. What are you trying to say here, if not that cav is OP in comparison to the other classes?

It looks like a thinly veiled call to nerf cav, without even actually saying what's wrong with cav now. Drum up enough popular support and keep the issue alive and it'll look like a much bigger problem than it is. This is why I downvoted your post.


Title: Re: Does Cav seem OP to you? Discuss.
Post by: San on July 16, 2012, 07:05:48 pm
Negative speed bonus irks me when I'm riding. If I'm riding away from any sort of ranged, they would only do 5% damage to me and 10% damage to my horse (30% if throwing lance). I think people can abuse this in order to have more survivability for themselves.

Delayed spawns for cav would have the fewest direct nerfs and would allow the other team to get into proper formation so they can properly defend themselves. Often times, I get to the enemy team before they can even put up much of a defense for half their players. Delaying spawning by cav for 20, even 10 seconds would be highly beneficial without messing with their mechanics directly. Aren't all the cav players claiming that teamwork beats cav? Give the team a few extra seconds to get some teamwork going!

I disagree about it taking one pikeman or archer. I think it takes at least 2-3 focusing solely on you, and only if they're good(for archers).

I have an issue with directly buffing classes that are already good enough against infantry. It might screw up their balance against infantry, too. Removing the 0 armor on a horse's legs and making the head more vulnerable would decrease teamwound damage on horses significantly while buffing pikes/archers (and I suppose stabbing weapons in general) against horses. There is more of a risk/reward for infantry, aiming for a safe body shot or an unsafe stab to the head, and whether cav should turn into or away from an opponent when stabbing.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Strider on July 16, 2012, 07:20:08 pm
"Cav seems OP? How to fix this?"

You didn't explicitly say that cav is OP. Just that it's a problem. And the suggested solutions to the problem is buffing archery and pikes.

"They are argued to be the dominant class in this state of crpg."

You dance around the issue, using weasel language just like this.

"I've been seeing more and more complaints about cavalry buffness and "Cav OP" / "Cav Nerf" threads.
There are becoming increasingly larger amounts of cavalry in our servers. Sometmes around 10-15 per team on a full server."

Here you obviously describe the problem. What are you trying to say here, if not that cav is OP in comparison to the other classes?

It looks like a thinly veiled call to nerf cav, without even actually saying what's wrong with cav now. Drum up enough popular support and keep the issue alive and it'll look like a much bigger problem than it is. This is why I downvoted your post.
Because there are many people out there that view cavalry as a problem and whine about it.
If you don't think it's a problem. Heres a thread that gives you a place to discuss and persuade others to think your way.
I personally do not care whatsoever how they change cav for better or for worse because I play cav everyone once in a while.

chadz has explained that he wants to completely recreate cav differently.
Your precious cavalry are very likely ready to be nerfed to shreads, so maybe if devs see lots of negative feedback against nerfing cav then they'll take your opinions into account and ditch the nerf.
Title: Re: Does Cav seem OP to you? Discuss.
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on July 16, 2012, 07:41:29 pm
Oh so you get what you want in the end?

Your precious cavalry are very likely ready to be nerfed to shreads, so maybe if devs see lots of negative feedback against nerfing cav then they'll take your opinions into account and ditch the nerf.


sorry but since when did devs ever listen to not nerfing something?

Oh but thats right, you never said cav should be nerfed  :rolleyes:

Title: Re: Does Cav seem OP to you? Discuss.
Post by: AgentQ on July 16, 2012, 07:41:58 pm
cav is OP again? i need to update the mod and roll out my masterwork heavy lance.
Title: Re: Does Cav seem OP to you? Discuss.
Post by: dynamike on July 16, 2012, 07:50:41 pm
cav is OP again? i need to update the mod and roll out my masterwork heavy lance.

You get back to playing, stranger!  :D

With the new installer there is no more need for manual updates, so no excuses  :wink: Would be good to see you on!
Title: Re: Does Cav seem OP to you? Discuss.
Post by: AgentQ on July 16, 2012, 07:58:50 pm
I hope the map rotations have more open maps. Btw, WOT is fun, i became a Wallet Warrior.  :D
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Rhekimos on July 16, 2012, 08:02:45 pm
Because there are many people out there that view cavalry as a problem and whine about it.
If you don't think it's a problem. Heres a thread that gives you a place to discuss and persuade others to think your way.
I personally do not care whatsoever how they change cav for better or for worse because I play cav everyone once in a while.

chadz has explained that he wants to completely recreate cav differently.
Your precious cavalry are very likely ready to be nerfed to shreads, so maybe if devs see lots of negative feedback against nerfing cav then they'll take your opinions into account and ditch the nerf.

You don't see the problem? I and the other few cav players need to be shouting constantly to make our voices heard over the hordes of 2h players who were caught unaware every map and lanced.

Why should it be up to me to convince them that they should be killed every now and then? That's pure madness.

Here you come along with your dubious neutrality in relation to cav, starting more threads and strongly hinting that cav should be nerfed as a starting point for your discussion. You seeded the pool, and hoped no one would notice.

And if cav is nerfed, I'll adapt. I've adapted 24 gens worth of 2h, piking, shielding, archery, crossbowing and cav, through numerous nerfs.

But who cares about classes right? 2h rule.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on July 16, 2012, 08:13:43 pm
You don't see the problem? I and the other few cav players need to be shouting constantly to make our voices heard over the hordes of 2h players who were caught unaware every map and lanced.

Why should it be up to me to convince them that they should be killed every now and then? That's pure madness.

Here you come along with your dubious neutrality in relation to cav, starting more threads and strongly hinting that cav should be nerfed as a starting point for your discussion. You seeded the pool, and hoped no one would notice.

And if cav is nerfed, I'll adapt. I've adapted 24 gens worth of 2h, piking, shielding, archery, crossbowing and cav, through numerous nerfs.

But who cares about classes right? 2h rule.

I agree, I don't think that most of the people whining for cav nerfs realize that....the few people that are actually good cav adapt to the nerfs and carry on playing. GKs are proof alone, we just plow through every change that cav has undertaken and we still annoy the shit out of people.

but yeah like you said 2h rules.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: RiPLeY_II on July 16, 2012, 08:16:01 pm
I was on my 2h cav yesterday on EU_4 there was 3 cav on my team including me and about 3 on the other team and there was about under 20 people on the server, me and the other two cav saw a small group of inf running into the middle of the map (it was a pretty open map) we went to attack and you know what happened.......we dropped like flys, they had two spearmen NO not pikers spearmen one had an ashwood pike the other had a boar spear and us horsemen had our horses killed and as we fell to the ground just as we stood up we got raped by the inf that was with the two spearmen. Now this group was about 4-5 people large and took down 3 cav in under 15 seconds....thats pretty dam fast and you know why they did so well? because they WORKED TOGETHER and was paying ATTENTION  they wasn't trying to get kills nor be rambos they actually worked together and they wasn't even clan members they were all random people (although ___Bjorn___ was on their team and he tries to get teamwork going...)

That is the most stupid thing I have ever heard...... I'm being selfish because I want to play my favorite class? oh I'm sorry, next time I kill someone as cav and they bitch about it Ill leave and come on an alt, will that be better? and if I'm on say....my ranged character do I have to leave if someone bitches about me killing them on that to? Yeah thats really the way to balance the game  :rolleyes:

have you even played cav? (bearing in mind the fairy horse also known as the "arabian" does not count as a real horse) the upkeep on my destrier is 1K+ thats on its own now add my armor, weapon boots, helmet, gloves, second weapon on top. Although I will admit they wont all break at once however if my horse breaks and my secondary weapon then my upkeep is 2k+ it doesn't sound like alot but having that once every few rounds with just those two breaking.....yeah it kinda adds up to alot of gold.

Also if its not fair to play cav all the time then what about the other classes? its ok for them to play inf and ranged all the time but its not ok for cav to play cav all the time.....yeah thats very fair and not siding with one class other another at all  :rolleyes:

If the problem is the amount of cav on at once then yes it will and can be annoying, but you think its just annoying for the people on foot? WRONG other cav will be just as annoyed as someone who died on foot will be if their killed by another cav. I personally hate cav vs cav fights as its a 50-50% chance that you will win or die its annoying that if he times it just a second better then me then I'm fucked. Cav vs cav fights are to risky so I avoid them if I can as I want to survive the round.

One last point, if cav ruins everyones fun don't you think it wouldn't be in the game? plus don't you think ranged annoy 2hers??? Are they next on the list to have a "limit" put on them  :?:

To put it short, same as many other people opinion "teamwork is key".

You said 5 PEOPLE working together kill 3. What's the surprise???? you say they don't need a balance cause they're killed when clearly outnumbered in a server with 20 people where you don't need battle awareness, cause there's nearly no battle???????

Teamwork doesn't do shit, when you have to face 20 enemy cav players and the 60 other infantry they have against a group of 80 infantry man. That's the case and not what you expose. And believe me the 80 players would be HYPER-RAPED in an open field, no matter teamwork or awareness

The class is favored, put it like that:

Cav is simply a guy that has superior mobility (and thus defense because of that), superior attack, cause it kills in 1 hit, and when they loose their horse .... SURPRISE IS A FULL INFANTRY MAN. When their number is fair, it's ok, you can manage it, but when they are too much, they're unmanageble. That doesn't happen WITH ANY OTHER CLASS.

Think of it like that, there's not a single soldier that acts as a pure counter to cav, as you said, you need a group and teamwork ...... to put down 1 good cav... so what you're saying is that their "total battle value" is above 1.

Title: Re: Does Cav seem OP to you? Discuss.
Post by: Rumblood on July 16, 2012, 08:18:43 pm
Im happy with the way NA1 is right now. (Yeah, you better specify where you play when you know the servers arent running the same versions)

Im an archer.

1vs1 - At range, all me. When cavalry is close enough to engage, they have a slight advantage due to horse bump.

1vs1 + a Tree - Pretty evenly matched duel

I only currently have 2 issues.

One is that the lance hits you about a foot to the right of where the graphics show the thrust to be. I only dodge far enough out of the way while drawing my bow to avoid the lance, then turn and shoot them in the back. Ghost reach screws that over.

The second (and worst!) is that stupid "auto-stun the archer if you get within 5 feet of them." I've been 3 feet behind a building or a tree that the cavalry galloped past and gotten the "auto-stun" because I was behind there with my bow drawn waiting to shoot them in the back as they drove by. REDUCE THE AUTO-STUN AREA OF EFFECT. Hell, you can't even blame it on the wind of their passing. I'm behind a WALL!
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on July 16, 2012, 08:21:56 pm
Teamwork doesn't do shit


I got to there and stopped reading, your unbelievably retarded if not then soo stupid that you pass as one. If you want to be rambo you do that, have fun but don't come to the forums QQing and bitching about how cav needs a nerf or to be "fixed" just because your blind, deaf and dumb kthnxbai.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: RiPLeY_II on July 16, 2012, 08:31:44 pm

I got to there and stopped reading, your unbelievably retarded if not then soo stupid that you pass as one. If you want to be rambo you do that, have fun but don't come to the forums QQing and bitching about how cav needs a nerf or to be "fixed" just because your blind, deaf and dumb kthnxbai.

Man you have a short brain if you can't see that.

Vs. a team crowded of cavmen, teamwork doesn't do shit, if you don't believe this either you haven't played enough the mod or you learn nothing from what you do.

You can be a group of pikemen, or whatever, when a group of the same number of cavmen attack another group from different directions, they'll end up bumping people and raping them, no matter the counters.

Cav can also do teamwork, and when they do, a teamworking group of pikemen/infantry have nothing to do.

You're not very smart if you can't see that.

You what you say is what I say. Teamwork and counters are ok, when you're trying to defeat 1 cavmen, using a group of 3 infantry man. When numbers are equal, everything is fucked. So I propose to cap the number of cav. Is it that difficult to understand to you? EQUAL NUMBER OF MEN is the key, think of it.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: _Tak_ on July 16, 2012, 08:37:40 pm
You what you say is what I say. Teamwork and counters are ok, when you're trying to defeat 1 cavmen, using a group of 3 infantry man. When numbers are equal, everything is fucked. So I propose to cap the number of cav. Is it that difficult to understand to you? EQUAL NUMBER OF MEN is the key, think of it.

What about the mongols in history? All of them are Cav (Full of Horse archers + lancers + heavy cavalry), is that equal?
Title: Re: Does Cav seem OP to you? Discuss.
Post by: Kazak on July 16, 2012, 08:37:43 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Does Cav seem OP to you? Discuss.
Post by: Rhekimos on July 16, 2012, 08:41:31 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Cute bunny. What does the text translate to?
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: RiPLeY_II on July 16, 2012, 08:41:47 pm
What about the mongols in history? All of them are Cav (Full of Horse archers + lancers + heavy cavalry), is that equal?

Yes, and they raped the whole asia. You put a great example .... of the superior performance of cav vs. infantry ... thank you.
Title: Re: Does Cav seem OP to you? Discuss.
Post by: dynamike on July 16, 2012, 08:48:33 pm
Im happy with the way NA1 is right now. (Yeah, you better specify where you play when you know the servers arent running the same versions)

Im an archer.

1vs1 - At range, all me. When cavalry is close enough to engage, they have a slight advantage due to horse bump.

1vs1 + a Tree - Pretty evenly matched duel

If I get close, I usually kill GrannPappy. IF I get close...

That's how it should be in archer vs. cav, no? Rock, paper, scissors.
Title: Re: Does Cav seem OP to you? Discuss.
Post by: Kazak on July 16, 2012, 08:51:34 pm
Cute bunny. What does the text translate to?

I aint openning muh eyes.

Until you Buff the archers and stop that sh*t.
Title: Re: Cav seems OP? How to fix this?
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on July 16, 2012, 09:12:20 pm
Man you have a short brain if you can't see that.

Vs. a team crowded of cavmen, teamwork doesn't do shit, if you don't believe this either you haven't played enough the mod or you learn nothing from what you do.

You can be a group of pikemen, or whatever, when a group of the same number of cavmen attack another group from different directions, they'll end up bumping people and raping them, no matter the counters.

Cav can also do teamwork, and when they do, a teamworking group of pikemen/infantry have nothing to do.

You're not very smart if you can't see that.

You what you say is what I say. Teamwork and counters are ok, when you're trying to defeat 1 cavmen, using a group of 3 infantry man. When numbers are equal, everything is fucked. So I propose to cap the number of cav. Is it that difficult to understand to you? EQUAL NUMBER OF MEN is the key, think of it.

I don't know what servers you play on but all of the players on there must be like you and want to be rambos. Iv seen teamwork do well against cav take the first multiclan tournament for example both teams had roughly the same amount of cav yet one team destroyed the other how you ask? by using TEAM WORK and if you want proof I remember that it was recorded. so shove that in your pipe and smoke it  8-)
Title: Re: Does Cav seem OP to you? Discuss.
Post by: BD_SUPERBEAST on July 16, 2012, 09:25:48 pm
Good thing this disscusion is on reasonable terms now.Keep it up :D

Im not in favour of limiting any class per team neither. :)
Title: Re: Does Cav seem OP to you? Discuss.
Post by: Toodles on July 17, 2012, 12:00:03 am
Im not in favour of limiting any class per team neither. :)

Likewise.

BRING ON the cavalry (can we stop saying cavmen? It sounds a bit too prehistoric). Have the infantry ADAPT to changing situations, FORCE THEM to RELY on one another, have them THINK before positioning themselves, make 'em GROW situational AWARENESS.

Cavalry is the ultimate sharpener of senses and the great uniter of Warband - there is nothing in this game that more efficiently brings people together and for this alone it needs to remain exactly as it is. A constant threat against which one's sole resort is the teammate.
Title: Re: Does Cav seem OP to you? Discuss.
Post by: Strider on July 17, 2012, 12:12:36 am
Many of you guys got me completely wrong.
I was trying to take a non suggesting standpoint to form a discussion. Lots of you feel that i'm sided too much against cav.
Negative. My real opinion is that cav is totally fine the way it is.
I think it's completely retarded to change the cav movement controls and riding difficulty.
There's no reasons why it shouldn't be any different than the usual way that m&b created it.
Title: Re: Does Cav seem OP to you? Discuss.
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on July 17, 2012, 01:31:08 am
Likewise.

BRING ON the cavalry (can we stop saying cavmen? It sounds a bit too prehistoric). Have the infantry ADAPT to changing situations, FORCE THEM to RELY on one another, have them THINK before positioning themselves, make 'em GROW situational AWARENESS.

Cavalry is the ultimate sharpener of senses and the great uniter of Warband - there is nothing in this game that more efficiently brings people together and for this alone it needs to remain exactly as it is. A constant threat against which one's sole resort is the teammate.

one of the best and most reasonable posts so far  :) who could argue with such reasonable words?
Title: Re: Does Cav seem OP to you? Discuss.
Post by: Bryggan on July 17, 2012, 03:59:32 am
I'm going to blame the 2-handers too.  If they just let the rear guard catch up instead charging recklessly after the enemy, those big gaps won't open up. 
At the back we always see the cav dancing around, testing for weakness, never getting too close, then suddenly they disappear.  Because while we're watching them, they're watching the main blob, and they quickly take off and flank them (usually in villages).  Then, as us throwers, archers and pikemen try catch up, a big group of enemy melee pops around a corner and destroys us- well, it takes a little longer for them to destroy the kiting archers.

But 90% of 2-handers have no patience.  They will elbow by me on a siege ladder as I'm catching every arrow and throwing axe on my shield to jump in and start swinging wildly, giving me no chance to use my throwing stuff.  In villages I'll be emptying my jarids into the oncoming maul and polearm guys at pointblank range, but they'll run right in front of me (not giving me the three seconds I need to soften them up for them) then bitch cuz they got a jarid in the back.

So patience, guys patience.  I'm not talking camping, but a slightly slower advance.  You'll still have your chance to hack and slash, the enemy's not leaving, but it'll take a few seconds longer.  Taking 20 seconds longer every round could mean at worst you'll die fighting instead of sudden insta-death.  Unless you're cav.  Then you'll die right right away.
Title: Re: Does Cav seem OP to you? Discuss.
Post by: BD_SUPERBEAST on July 17, 2012, 04:45:56 am
Even when out of place(maybe new thread would do better for this) ,u got some points definitely Bryggan. +1
Title: Re: Does Cav seem OP to you? Discuss.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 17, 2012, 04:41:23 pm
I'm going to blame the 2-handers too.  If they just let the rear guard catch up instead charging recklessly after the enemy, those big gaps won't open up. 
At the back we always see the cav dancing around, testing for weakness, never getting too close, then suddenly they disappear.  Because while we're watching them, they're watching the main blob, and they quickly take off and flank them (usually in villages).  Then, as us throwers, archers and pikemen try catch up, a big group of enemy melee pops around a corner and destroys us- well, it takes a little longer for them to destroy the kiting archers.

But 90% of 2-handers have no patience.  They will elbow by me on a siege ladder as I'm catching every arrow and throwing axe on my shield to jump in and start swinging wildly, giving me no chance to use my throwing stuff.  In villages I'll be emptying my jarids into the oncoming maul and polearm guys at pointblank range, but they'll run right in front of me (not giving me the three seconds I need to soften them up for them) then bitch cuz they got a jarid in the back.

So patience, guys patience.  I'm not talking camping, but a slightly slower advance.  You'll still have your chance to hack and slash, the enemy's not leaving, but it'll take a few seconds longer.  Taking 20 seconds longer every round could mean at worst you'll die fighting instead of sudden insta-death.  Unless you're cav.  Then you'll die right right away.

ZOMG discussing teamwork and tactics?  GTFO...honestly one of the more intelligent responses in this thread, and it should just be common sense to anyone who's played the game for longer than a week.  I say this as 10th gen cav (soon to be 11th), that is exactly what I do as cavalry.  I look for weaknesses early on, and the "solo" players, aka good players, usually are at the front speed running while ranged and pikemen sometimes have to slow down to keep me at bay.  This creates large gaps between groups of ground troops and makes it easier for cavalry to pick you off.  I'm like a lion look for weak and injured at the beginning (but if I can find someone away from the pack who is a large threat to my team I always go for them first).  Then as soon as infantry starts engaging each other I'm trying to flank the enemy.  I can't tell you how many times I've circled around a village house to hit the enemy in the back (and then ride through friendly troops) to repeat the same thing 3 or 4 times.   You can't do this on open field maps because the enemy ranged and pikemen will see me, but on village maps it's easy.

I think a lot of footmen feel safer on village maps (obviously because of walls to hide behind), but in reality footman always have the best teamwork on open field maps.  But nobody likes playing open field maps, going back to my days playing warband in beta.
Title: Re: Does Cav seem OP to you? Discuss.
Post by: Tor! on July 17, 2012, 04:42:26 pm
Infantry is only cannonfodder for ranged and cav in this mod  :P