cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Tarasque on July 12, 2012, 04:54:12 pm

Title: long spear/pike + 1h
Post by: Tarasque on July 12, 2012, 04:54:12 pm
hello all, please I need some advice for a pike + 1h character

I play normally 1h+shield clasic 21/15 build with medium armor, now want to try pike or long spear +1h build with heavy armor, any advice for a build?

wich weapon is easier and viable, pike or long spear?

ty in advance.
Title: Re: long spear/pike + 1h
Post by: Zerran on July 12, 2012, 05:20:50 pm
Hello!

I have a Pike guide buried somewhere in the depths of the beginner's section (though I need to update it a bit since the turn speed nerf)

That said, I recommend the following build with either Longspear or Pike:

21/18

7 IF
7 PS
6 ATH
3 WM

98 Polearm WPF

You'll then be able to put 99 wpf into your sidearm (I use the langes messer in 2H mode personally, though for a 1H sidearm the Italian sword is good)

This might seem like too little wpf, but from my experience I haven't had any issues with it, and the extra IF is very nice, especially with heavy armor.


As far as Longspear vs. Pike this is really up to you. Longspear might be easier to get used to, as it isn't as quirky as the pike, and tends to work in a manner more similar to other weapons. Personally I prefer the Pike though, as I can outrange, or at least equal the range of, every other melee weapon in the game, and can hit around teammates much easier with it.

I recommend trying them both out and seeing which one you like more.
Title: Re: long spear/pike + 1h
Post by: Fartface on July 12, 2012, 05:35:17 pm
12/27 pikeman was my build.
Title: Re: long spear/pike + 1h
Post by: [ptx] on July 12, 2012, 05:42:57 pm
My level 30 build. Works wonders, really.

Strength:24
Agility:15
One Handed:102
Polearm:120
Weapon Master:5
Athletics:5
Iron Flesh:5
Power Strike:8

Title: Re: long spear/pike + 1h
Post by: Digglez on July 12, 2012, 06:27:23 pm
heavy armor and long spears are dumb combo.  Longspear & Pike are support weapons, which means you need to be quick to go where team needs you.  Plate wearing pikemen is just a huge bullseye, especially without clanmates to protect you.  Also, resorting to a sidearm is just fail for a spearman.  It will get you killed as often as it will save you, so you gain nothing.  Instead you should learn the advanced spear maneuvers and rely on your main weapon to become MORE deadly.

Gugnir Spearman build in my clan thread is great all around build.  Having shield is also VERY important for a spearman.  There will be days you are getting focused so hard or so many projectiles wizzing aorund that you will want a shield.  What you dont realize is how big a bonus spears get from YOUR speed, so a 7athletics spearman in medium-light armor can do as much damage as 7/8 PS player.  It also allows you to do the fancy spear maneuvers like spin stabs and bonce from open target to target more easily.

GUGNIR SPEARMAN:  like a wall of icicle daggers, keeping the enemy at bay until the time to strike is right
(click to show/hide)
Strength: 15
Agility: 21
Hit points: 60
Skills to attributes: 2
Ironflesh: 5
Power Strike: 5
Shield: 5
Athletics: 7
Weapon Master: 7
Polearm: 164
Title: Re: long spear/pike + 1h
Post by: _Tak_ on July 12, 2012, 06:33:10 pm
If you are going to have a side arm with pike/ longspear you can just invest all the points into 1 handed without putting any points in polearm, still works, but if you want to be a dedicated piker put all points in polearm + quarterstaff
Title: Re: long spear/pike + 1h
Post by: Zerran on July 12, 2012, 06:37:08 pm
I strongly disagree with not carrying a sidearm. There are simply situations that the Pike/Longspear are not good options for. Learning 1v1 maneuvers with them is a matter of course, but knowing how to use a sidearm has saved me many times.

Heavier armor also makes forcing glances easier, which is extremely useful when pulling off a 180 helicopter while running past the enemy. It also means you can take more hits and not die on your allies, leaving them without support. Even more so with the pike, as that 55 extra range already makes changing targets easier. Helicopters aren't really any more difficult with heavy armor than with light, as long as you have decent athletics.

Oh, and I went ahead an updated my Pike Guide and placed it in the Guides section: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,35802.msg543137.html#new

Quote from: AlexTheDragon on July 12, 2012, 06:33:10 pm
If you are going to have a side arm with pike/ longspear you can just invest all the points into 1 handed without putting any points in polearm, still works, but if you want to be a dedicated piker put all points in polearm + quarterstaff

You most definitely want points in polearms, as wpf reduces the length of your thrust stun, and gives a good damage boost. Past 100 points though, it does become a bit over-costly.

The quarterstaff is a decent sidearm, but personally I find that it obscures my vision too much.
Title: Re: long spear/pike + 1h
Post by: _Tak_ on July 12, 2012, 07:13:46 pm
Quote from: Zerran on July 12, 2012, 06:37:08 pm
You most definitely want points in polearms, as wpf reduces the length of your thrust stun, and gives a good damage boost. Past 100 points though, it does become a bit over-costly.

The quarterstaff is a decent sidearm, but personally I find that it obscures my vision too much.

Really? wpf does affect the length of thrust stun? I always die from my stupid thrust stun lol, everytime when i thrust, someone block down i won't be able to block for like 1-2 seconds, i seen few pikers who invest all points into 1 handed and they still do decent damage on pikes. If I have a higher amount of wpf will I be able to block better Caita ;d?
Title: Re: long spear/pike + 1h
Post by: Zerran on July 12, 2012, 07:18:06 pm
Quote from: AlexTheDragon on July 12, 2012, 07:13:46 pm
Really? wpf does affect the length of thrust stun? I always die from my stupid thrust stun lol, everytime when i thrust, someone block down i won't be able to block for like 1-2 seconds,

Yes it does, though even with a really high wpf, the thrust stun on the pike is still a huge pain.

Quote from: AlexTheDragon on July 12, 2012, 07:13:46 pm
i seen few pikers who invest all points into 1 handed and they still do decent damage on pikes.

0-100 wpf is a difference of something like 5% damage, so while it's not an enormous change, it's certainly significant.

Quote from: AlexTheDragon on July 12, 2012, 07:13:46 pm
If I have a higher amount of wpf will I be able to block better Caita ;d?

Unfortunately... no.  :P
Title: Re: long spear/pike + 1h
Post by: Zanze on July 12, 2012, 08:31:14 pm
Quote from: Zerran on July 12, 2012, 07:18:06 pm
0-100 wpf is a difference of something like 5% damage, so while it's not an enormous change, it's certainly significant.
0-100 wpf is 15% damage. With 0 wpf, you are doing 85% of the damage shown by the weapon. At 100 wpf, you are doing the damage stated by the weapon. At 150, if the increase continues, you will be doing roughly 107-8% damage. Or, a free PS.

Now then, on sidearms.

The whole sidearm thing is very situational, and honestly, it only works for those heavy str builds. An agi build pike/longspear can just helicopter once and run off. Or block and run off. You are support, you shouldn't be 1v1. Also, learning your weapon really helps. Last night you tried to 1v1 me in the midst of siege Caita. You dropped your pike and rushed at me with a langes messer I think? I poked you down as a hoplite, no sidearm, no dropping of shield. Now, i do understand why you have your sidearm, and why you focus on strength. You play on siege and are better suited to sit in one spot and kill things. However, given we were fighting on flag and surrounded by your teammates I still think it would have been better to block my attacks and return to your team rather than try and fight me yourself and becoming another mindless 2h.

Now, In the situations where your entire team is dead and you are solo, then yes a sidearm is necessary (now, thanks to turnspeed nerf only). However, there would be plenty of MW weapons to choose from on the ground. Again though, if you are a strength based longspear/pike you will not have the ath necessary to outrun people to pick up these weapon.

TL;DR STR based pikemen need sidearms, ath based pikemen do not. Both fill certain roles better, but in general are just as effective.

PS: Stealing your pike when you drop it and jumping off walls remains hilarious.
Title: Re: long spear/pike + 1h
Post by: Zerran on July 12, 2012, 08:56:06 pm
Quote from: Zanze on July 12, 2012, 08:31:14 pm
The whole sidearm thing is very situational, and honestly, it only works for those heavy str builds. An agi build pike/longspear can just helicopter once and run off. Or block and run off. You are support, you shouldn't be 1v1. Also, learning your weapon really helps. Last night you tried to 1v1 me in the midst of siege Caita. You dropped your pike and rushed at me with a langes messer I think? I poked you down as a hoplite, no sidearm, no dropping of shield.

This is true, but I've also killed both you and Relit multiple times by switching to my sidearm as well as by using my Pike. Killing someone a few times doesn't mean one way or the other is better. (Though I really wasn't paying much attention last night in siege  :P)

Helicoptering once and running off is fine and good unless that's a target that NEEDS to die, or if you're in a situation where you can't run.

Example: Thrower you've managed to get close to, and has an ally on the way. You've been separated from your allies and they won't get to you before the thrower's ally arrives. Thrower is just holding downblock, so pike/LS is useless.

Without a sidearm your only choices here are to run, at which point you get shot in the back, or fight a 2v1 fight. With a sidearm, you can do a rapid switch, spam the thrower to death, and then not be in a 2v1 when his ally arrives.

If I don't have a sidearm and my allies aren't around/are occupied/are dead then I'm at a serious disadvantage against players that know how to fight a pike. Pike/LS 1v1 is all about deception and trickery. If someone knows your tricks and has experience fighting them, you're not likely to win. Also, if I'm simply in an area where I can't helicopter or run away (such as on a steep incline), having a sidearm is exceedingly useful.

It also means I'm able to operate on my own if need be without fear of getting stuck in a hopeless situation. For example, pulling a 2 pronged flanking maneuver with 2 people. With your setup this kind of maneuver is very risky if you run into someone you can't kill very rapidly with the longspear. With a sidearm you can swap it out, kill the target, and move on.

Besides, my langes messer is only 1.7 weight, and it's one of the heavier sidearms. That amount of weight isn't noticeable, and for the massive utility it adds I'd say it's a hundred times worth it. Admittedly, using a sidearm requires some more practice (especially practicing WHEN and HOW to switch to it), but there are simply too many situations where it comes in handy.
Title: Re: long spear/pike + 1h
Post by: Player_01 on July 12, 2012, 09:58:12 pm
For my generation of strength piker. (Which was amazing) I went with a higher strength build to get a ton of killshots, which in turn made me a bit of a target. So carrying that sidearm is a REALLY good idea for when some mook closes in, bash his brains out and go back to ramming the stick of death into them.

Since you're gonna go heavy armor, I'll modify my build around that for GRAET SURIVABIRITY!

(click to show/hide)

Now, onto sidearms. For 1 slot pike-companions, there's actually a lot to choose from. You aren't tied down to using a one-hander. Since you're strength oriented you can make use of a wider range of weapons and still have effective killing power.

Polearms: Quarterstaff (http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=equipshop&cat=polearm#!?page=itemdetail&id=111), Shortened spear (http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=equipshop&cat=polearm#!?page=itemdetail&id=92), Military Fork (http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=equipshop&cat=polearm#!?page=itemdetail&id=99)
Two-handed: Mace (http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=equipshop&cat=twohanded#!?page=itemdetail&id=189), Military Sickle (http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=equipshop&cat=onehanded#!?page=itemdetail&id=197), Fighting Axe (http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=equipshop&cat=onehanded#!?page=itemdetail&id=197), Langes Messer (http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=equipshop&cat=onehanded#!?page=itemdetail&id=3298)
^ Also, not to confuse. The sickle, fighting axe and langes messer are all one handed weapons with a two handed alternative mode.

I personally never used one-handed weapons as a Pikeman because I felt I had better choices in other single slot 2h/polearms. But you can try any and all of these out, fairly inexpensive and amazing sidearms.

EDIT: I totally ignored him asking about pike vs longspear. Sorry about that! I myself have used a MW Pike and MW Longspear, both are amazing weapons. There are a few key differences to keep in mind, the Longspear is shorter but makes up for it by being faster and stronger. The pike is the ultimate support weapon that takes practice, that length will strike terror into your opponents. One thing that is incredibly important to know when using a Pike is that when somebody blocks your attack, your speed delay is so slow that you can't block that same person incoming in time. You will be forced to draw a sidearm in that case, whereas the longspear has ample time to pull their block up after being deflected.
Title: Re: long spear/pike + 1h
Post by: belm on July 14, 2012, 03:56:44 pm
I would recommend 30/9 longspear build with 10ps, 3 athl, 130wpf. Sure it is a bit slow, but you will remain alive a lot longer.
About WPF: If you want to do some kickstabs you will need min. 110 wpf and 9 agi.
PS: lonspear is just great why would you bother with sidearm if you can do kickstab :)