cRPG

Off Topic => Historical Discussion => Topic started by: Penitent on July 11, 2012, 05:26:55 pm

Title: The Bar Mace
Post by: Penitent on July 11, 2012, 05:26:55 pm
How historical is this weapon?  From what I read online, there was the remains of one found in the Thames and it was supposedly "used throughout Europe."  I can't find a picture of the actual mace found in the Thames.  I'm not really able to find any other sources, except one italian drawing...but the mace is a much smaller one-handed version.   It's more of a metal baton and less of a mace.

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Does anyone know when this weapon was used?  How was it used (by knights?  peasants?  Civilly?)  Was there actually a 2 handed version?
Title: Re: The Bar Mace
Post by: Fluffy_Muffin on July 11, 2012, 06:02:09 pm
http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1189.html
Title: Re: The Bar Mace
Post by: Penitent on July 11, 2012, 06:04:17 pm
Quote from: Fluffy_Muffin on July 11, 2012, 06:02:09 pm
http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1189.html

Hello,

I cannot view this page at work.  What does it say?
Title: Re: The Bar Mace
Post by: Fluffy_Muffin on July 11, 2012, 06:07:48 pm
and a quote from "European Weapons And Armour" by Ewart Oakeshott:

"There is in the Odescalci Collection in Rome a most interesting mace of aberrant form, like a rather graceful club forged in steel with a little finial at its head shaped as a truncated cone reversed, and a small spherical button at the end of the narrow, shaped grip, illustrated in figure 13. This is a rare example of such a mace, though several are to be seen in Italian paintings of the fourteenth century-notably a fresco by Giotto in the Cappella della Scrovegni, Padua (c. 1303-1305), and a predella by Giovanni di Bartolomeo Christiani (c. 1367-1393) in the Metropolitan Museum, New York. It seems to have been a type of weapon confined to Italy, used probably only during the fourteenth century, since no representations of it exist later than Christiani's predella."

and a catalog entry from the Odescalchi Collection in Rome:



Which translates to:

39./40
Arms Mace, c. 1300-1350
Rome, OD 669
Rod handle, with a spheroid pommell and body long and tight, formed by four flanges crossed, lightly recurved and flared to the point, where it is closed by a trunccated square pyramid, peened over.
(750 x 55; 1430)
The mace is very similar to that illustrated in fig. 38 and to the mace gripped by "The Fortitude" painted by Giotto in the Scrovegni's Chapel of Padova ca. 1303-1305, where this virtue defend herself behind a high pavaise. A similar mace, but more complicated, is that in the third plank of the "The Death of Saint Sebastian", painted in the 1367 by Nicoletto Semitcolo in Pavia's cathedral (a)."

and finally, here's the above-mentioned Fortitude and her piece of fence post:



So there you have it. A bit strange, but quite correct (except for the small end piece of the first original pictured above), and a jolly good whacking stick of Fortitude. I've had folks ask me if medieval maces could easily crush helmets and destroy cinder blocks and pulverize Volkswagons (I get some strange letters sometimes) - this ridiculously strong and solid mace will.

(TherionArms does not advocate crushing helmets and destroying cinder blocks and pulverising Volkswagons, only the potential to do so. Except maybe the mid-2000's re-issue lime green Volkswagons. Those should definitely be pulverized with maces.)
Title: Re: The Bar Mace
Post by: Penitent on July 11, 2012, 06:13:50 pm
Nice info!  Thanks for that.

So that one handed version seems to be Italian in origin and used during the 1300's.  I wonder if there is any other info on the possibly larger version found in England...
Title: Re: The Bar Mace
Post by: Osiris on July 12, 2012, 01:56:32 pm
http://www.theknightshop.co.uk/catalog/bar-mace-p-1533.html?osCsid=d152a627e6136040be26f8d68312f72b

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Title: Re: The Bar Mace
Post by: Penitent on July 12, 2012, 05:51:37 pm
Quote from: Osiris on July 12, 2012, 01:56:32 pm
(click to show/hide)

Yes, that picture is a modern recreation of a bar mace, and it appears that is what the game devs based the game model off of.  Literally, the only info I can get on a two-handed bar mace ever having existed in history is from webpages like this selling modern productions claiming historicity. 

Are there any more historical examples?  A pic of the Thames specimen for example?
Title: Re: The Bar Mace
Post by: Turboflex on July 13, 2012, 12:21:01 am
you doubt people were using iron bars as weapons? adding some grooves into for extra smashing efficiency?
Title: Re: The Bar Mace
Post by: Penitent on July 13, 2012, 12:35:24 am
Quote from: Turboflex on July 13, 2012, 12:21:01 am
you doubt people were using iron bars as weapons? adding some grooves into for extra smashing efficiency?

Not doubt necessarily...I just want to see if there were really 2 handed versions of this weapon being used all across Europe like some websites claim.  Also, were they used by peasants or nobility?  Were there any notable armies or people that used them?  and details such as that.

I'm sure people used iron bars as improvised weapons all the time, but if it was usual for for people to forge bar maces purposefully and use them regularly on the battlefield, they would be shown more in painting and sculptures.  There are TONS of variation in medieval history on maces, swords, spears, axes....and we have lots of records showing such.  However, the bar mace looks quite alien and we have remarkably little (basically no) information regarding it....except for the one-handed italian version cited above.

So, am I doubtful?  Maybe a little.  I'm thinking this (the 2h version) was an exceedingly rare type of weapon...just a heavy metal club that was not very efficient in battle, so not used widely.  I dont' even think it should be called a mace, frankly.  Mostly though, I was just trying to find out if there was more historical information on it...to find out for sure, but mostly just to learn more about it! :)
Title: Re: The Bar Mace
Post by: Turboflex on July 17, 2012, 06:59:48 pm
I'm sure someone made a weapon like that at some point, but I doubt 2h in general were used as often as protrayed in games and film.

It's one thing to be a 2h hero in a game or film, it's another in a real battle when your life is on the line and you don't actually care all that much for the king who is leading your army anyways. Which is why through most of history humans tried to avoid exposing themself directly to an opponents' sword range, instead preferring to hold up their shields and thrust out with spear or short sword, or stand behind a longspear and keep opponents at bay.
Title: Re: The Bar Mace
Post by: Angantyr on July 28, 2012, 01:44:54 am
Certainly, which is also why two-handers were mostly used in formation with shields, striking out from behind them then shifting back into cover. Fully armored foot knights lend boldness enough from their full plate to fight in single combat, though, and of course fanatics too of any religion preaching a wonderful afterlife if killed in combat, for the faith or otherwise, and people from warrior cultures where the notion that exposing oneself to unnecessary danger as a sign of bravery is well-ingrained.
Title: Re: The Bar Mace
Post by: _JoG_ on July 31, 2012, 07:48:53 pm
Quote from: Garison on July 13, 2012, 12:35:24 am
So, am I doubtful?  Maybe a little.  I'm thinking this (the 2h version) was an exceedingly rare type of weapon...just a heavy metal club that was not very efficient in battle, so not used widely.  I dont' even think it should be called a mace, frankly.  Mostly though, I was just trying to find out if there was more historical information on it...to find out for sure, but mostly just to learn more about it! :)
Well, I did some basic research on bar maces about a year ago, and I've only found images of small one-handed maces of this type. They have already been posted here.
I bet the 2h version was just modeled due to the incorrect interpretation of the available information by the modeler.
Title: Re: The Bar Mace
Post by: Angantyr on July 31, 2012, 09:46:52 pm
Similar to the 2h cleaver.. Would be great to have these fantasy weapons removed from the mod (including the lolhammer)..
Title: Re: The Bar Mace
Post by: _JoG_ on July 31, 2012, 10:04:14 pm
Quote from: Angantyr on July 31, 2012, 09:46:52 pm
Similar to the 2h cleaver.. Would be great to have these fantasy weapons removed from the mod (including the lolhammer)..
Well, cleaver could stay, IMO, if its shape and size are changed to the more realistic ones. The new mesh made by Shik has been in the mod resources for quite a while, it's not used though.
Title: Re: The Bar Mace
Post by: Angantyr on August 01, 2012, 01:06:10 am
Exactly.
Title: Re: The Bar Mace
Post by: Penitent on August 01, 2012, 02:43:19 pm
Quote from: Angantyr on July 31, 2012, 09:46:52 pm
Similar to the 2h cleaver.. Would be great to have these fantasy weapons removed from the mod (including the lolhammer)..

This was a real weapon, the 2h wear cleaver.

(from the Maciejowski Bible, center)
(click to show/hide)

You may say this weapon looks too short to be a two-handed weapon, but keep in mind medieval artists were not known for their reasonable sense of proportions...and its true the in-game version may be exaggeratedly long. :)  Look at the length of the handle however, clearly designed to accommodate 2 hands.
Title: Re: The Bar Mace
Post by: _JoG_ on August 01, 2012, 06:53:21 pm
Quote from: Garison on August 01, 2012, 02:43:19 pm
This was a real weapon, the 2h wear cleaver.

(from the Maciejowski Bible, center)
(click to show/hide)

You may say this weapon looks too short to be a two-handed weapon, but keep in mind medieval artists were not known for their reasonable sense of proportions...and its true the in-game version may be exaggeratedly long. :)  Look at the length of the handle however, clearly designed to accommodate 2 hands.
I bet Angantyr knows about it :)
Look at the proportions of this weapon, it's length and grip:blade length ratio. Now compare it with the weapon we have ingame. The Native cleaver looks a bit weird, doesn't it?
Title: Re: The Bar Mace
Post by: Penitent on August 01, 2012, 07:09:52 pm
Quote from: _JoG_ on August 01, 2012, 06:53:21 pm
I bet Angantyr knows about it :)
Look at the proportions of this weapon, it's length and grip:blade length ratio. Now compare it with the weapon we have ingame. The Native cleaver looks a bit weird, doesn't it?

Yeah, its a bit messed up.  If I were in charge, I would make it a shorter 2h chopping weapon, with stats similar to the "mace."
Title: Re: The Bar Mace
Post by: Angantyr on August 09, 2012, 06:38:07 pm
As JoG said, yes I am aware of the Maciejowski illustration but was referring to the proportions (which the Maciejowski bible is usually considered pretty accurate in portraying, ie. the illustrators probably had first hand experience with armaments).