cRPG

cRPG => Scene Editing => Topic started by: cmp on July 04, 2012, 05:05:20 pm

Title: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: cmp on July 04, 2012, 05:05:20 pm
(click to show/hide)
The screenshot above is taken in the "Bandit Hideout" map, and I'm standing where most of the action happens.
How many torches/fires/candles do you see? 2? 3 ?4
How many torches/fires/candles can the engine see? More than 20, and it will render all of their fire effects, no matter if there's a tree, a hill or twenty walls between you and them.
(click to show/hide)
The performance impact from that is pretty big. If the map has water and you have reflections enabled, it will be twice as big.

So, when you're making a map, please adhere to the following guidelines:
1) use objects that emit particles sparingly. Especially placing dozens of them in an area where people go rarely adds very little to the map, while still decreasing performance for everyone.
2) use torch_night instead of torch, unless you want to place it in a poorly lit area indoors.

Here's another good example of please-kill-my-FPS:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Tydeus on July 04, 2012, 06:01:51 pm
Any idea why some foliage heavy maps have input lag issues more than others? Are certain trees just more taxing, do you know? If so, could we limit the usage of those specific trees?
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: cmp on July 04, 2012, 06:29:39 pm
Give me a few examples of such maps and I'll check the bottlenecks.
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Mustikki on July 04, 2012, 06:41:32 pm
Gonna do some hotfixes for maps with higher fps usage.
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Elindor on July 04, 2012, 07:24:39 pm
Yeah Mustikki, if we (mappers) submit maps that you think will cause lag issues, definitely let us know and we will revise them before putting them into rotation.
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Lech on July 04, 2012, 09:37:46 pm
Wow, i didn't though the renderer is so bad.
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Elindor on July 05, 2012, 02:24:08 am
Unfortunately it is Lech.

One thing people can do is just turn off particle systems in their options - video settings.
that tends to help a lot
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: cmp on July 05, 2012, 12:57:50 pm
Sure, but having to turn off particle systems on a high end PC because a mapper put torches everywhere is ridiculous.
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Elindor on July 05, 2012, 04:02:20 pm
I agree.
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Muunilinst on July 06, 2012, 01:17:09 pm
get better pc ure living in 21 century lazy ...
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Digglez on July 06, 2012, 10:28:09 pm
ZOMG devs trying to instill common sense in map making?
Whats next, some sort of review process before maps get put into rotation?!


Very cool that you will be doing some retrofixing Musti.  THere used to be a siege map with green moat, siege tower way on the left side...used to be one of my favs...but it had a ton of torches so people hated it
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Elindor on July 06, 2012, 10:33:49 pm
I agree that maps should get more testing before being put in - but unfortunately Digglez, the average player assumes there is more of a "map team" than there is. 

Heres the issue with mapping:

- very few people make maps
- the map editor is atrocious
- who would beta test maps?  you need to have many players on either side to really test it


These are issues that arise, and most of the player base is rude and unhelpful about maps and mappers. 

Basically, crpg is a mod - and we get to "beta test" maps as players :)

NOW - what needs to happen is players need a better way (and a better attitude) of reporting issues, and addressing balance concerns, so that mappers can make adjustments based on a wide sampling of results on their maps.

Perhaps there can be information gathered as to the result of each round of a map (siege that is).  So after 2 weeks of a map being in rotation, a dev could say "Elindor, on Rochester, attackers have won 200 rounds, and defense has only won 115" or something, and I could look into what might be causing that....since you would hope attacker/defender wins/losses should be RELATIVELY close if its balanced.
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: cmp on July 07, 2012, 12:53:07 am
get better pc ure living in 21 century lazy ...

- Intel i7 860
- AMD Radeon HD5870
- 8GB RAM
- you really don't know what you're talking about, so you'd better just shut up
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Kreczor on July 07, 2012, 03:00:01 am
I agree that maps should get more testing before being put in - but unfortunately Digglez, the average player assumes there is more of a "map team" than there is. 

Heres the issue with mapping:

- very few people make maps
- the map editor is atrocious
- who would beta test maps?  you need to have many players on either side to really test it


These are issues that arise, and most of the player base is rude and unhelpful about maps and mappers. 

Basically, crpg is a mod - and we get to "beta test" maps as players :)

NOW - what needs to happen is players need a better way (and a better attitude) of reporting issues, and addressing balance concerns, so that mappers can make adjustments based on a wide sampling of results on their maps.

Perhaps there can be information gathered as to the result of each round of a map (siege that is).  So after 2 weeks of a map being in rotation, a dev could say "Elindor, on Rochester, attackers have won 200 rounds, and defense has only won 115" or something, and I could look into what might be causing that....since you would hope attacker/defender wins/losses should be RELATIVELY close if its balanced.

We should get a small ~10 player server specifically for beta testing maps, region wouldn't matter as we'd be looking for exploits in the map and such. It'd really help for some feedback based on bigger issues.

Also, since it wouldn't be a big server it could technically not require expensive server equipment, I won't run it off of my computer because it's not built for that but it's an option.
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Elindor on July 07, 2012, 05:20:14 am
Could be bigger technically Kreczor, since performance (FPS) is not a factor. 
But yeah it could be run on a less than premium server.

This would be good for testing spawns, doors, potential balance issues, etc...

Not sure how to get people onto it though...maybe its done at scheduled times and the volunteers get x2-x3 during the duration of the testing.
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Digglez on July 07, 2012, 05:23:50 am
Yes I know where you are coming from Elindor, I've made maps in other games for other mods (I choose not to in his mod for the very reasons you listed).  The problem lies in the fact that NA is red-headed stepchild.  Once a shitty map goes into rotation (which happens on a regular, almost weekly basis) it takes months to get it removed.  In the meantime, big server like siege is severely impacted and it KILLS a game type.

Hell I'd put up 5k cRPG money for a map maker per new map if it was tested in some fashion on a 10-15 slot server.  Make some sort of schedule or something.
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Kreczor on July 07, 2012, 06:21:29 am
Could be bigger technically Kreczor, since performance (FPS) is not a factor. 
But yeah it could be run on a less than premium server.

This would be good for testing spawns, doors, potential balance issues, etc...

Not sure how to get people onto it though...maybe its done at scheduled times and the volunteers get x2-x3 during the duration of the testing.

From my point of view, I don't want people to earn money/experience from it. It would merely be map makers exclusively testing out the maps with other map makers.
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Elindor on July 07, 2012, 07:15:24 am
theres only like 4 or5 of us Kreczor :)

Digglez - join us....  :mrgreen:

Mustikki - is there any chance of some sort of pre-testing going on for maps to see balance, bugs, spawn issues, etc?
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Muunilinst on July 07, 2012, 12:15:59 pm
- Intel i7 860
- AMD Radeon HD5870
- 8GB RAM
- you really don't know what you're talking about, so you'd better just shut up



cool story bro funny i can run it fine with 4 gb and a lower proceccor i think u should learn a bit about pcs u ***** (=...
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Jacko on July 07, 2012, 12:28:39 pm
It has to do with the engine. I always get big lag spikes on the second map cmp posted (and I have a good computer).

This is a fact, light effects affect performance, regardless of computer.

theres only like 4 or5 of us Kreczor :)

Digglez - join us....  :mrgreen:

Mustikki - is there any chance of some sort of pre-testing going on for maps to see balance, bugs, spawn issues, etc?

Elindor, easiest way to pre-test is to make your own server (I have for personal testing, not up and running at the moment). I could probably get it up if you guys want some minor testing.
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: cmp on July 07, 2012, 01:06:45 pm
cool story bro funny i can run it fine with 4 gb and a lower proceccor i think u should learn a bit about pcs u ***** (=...

Yeah, what do I know about PCs? I'm just a game developer and I really don't use them enough to be an expert like you.

I'm still curious though, why does looking at that useless shrine area I mentioned before halve FPS?

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

I know you want to say something like "omgg 120 fpss and u complain?1?? u nub lawlz ur pc is **** suk!!111!", but please turn on your brain first and think what happens when there are 140 players instead of 1.
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Vibe on July 07, 2012, 01:10:20 pm
Torches/fires/candles (or other fireworky stuff) unwanted
posted on July 4th

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Mustikki on July 07, 2012, 03:33:00 pm
Mustikki - is there any chance of some sort of pre-testing going on for maps to see balance, bugs, spawn issues, etc?

We are testing our maps in cRPG beta servers.
Not even lightest chance to test balancing stuff/spawn issues with 5 vs 5 on sieges. Bugs are mostly prevented by checking the map at editor mode, but there is always a chance that some are left but we are lucky that we got so many beta testers who are dedicated to report them and gives feedback regularly. That's also why there needs to be ongoing bug fixing after the map is released.

And now cut the useless off-topic spam.
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Elindor on July 07, 2012, 08:15:07 pm
Unfortunately, for some things you need a lot of people on to test....so not sure how possible that is really.
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Vengt037 on July 09, 2012, 09:43:36 pm
I noticed that the map w/ the giant red carpet and inescapable drowning pool in the center causes FPS issues, Or maybe this is just an optical illusion caused by the rug pattern and my FPS is fine? I do enjoy seeing people fall into that pool though.
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Muki on July 12, 2012, 04:03:48 am
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/833/mb3zy.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/256/mb2lk.jpg/

This map too has a fps problem and it's in the middle of the battlefield (Where most of the fights take place) Don't know it name QMD/QMU didn't work on it
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Jacko on July 12, 2012, 09:36:07 am
Muki,

that map has no torches/fires/candles whatsoever. It's and old native map even.. Try this thread for general feedback: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,23740.0.html. If you want to know a map name, just press escape and "Show game rules".
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Muki on July 12, 2012, 11:43:21 pm
Muki,

that map has no torches/fires/candles whatsoever. It's and old native map even.. Try this thread for general feedback: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,23740.0.html. If you want to know a map name, just press escape and "Show game rules".

Thanks for the help
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Tydeus on July 17, 2012, 08:20:33 pm
Give me a few examples of such maps and I'll check the bottlenecks.
Crop Rotation. I'll post again when I find another map in rotation that is problematic.

On a side note, we need more maps like this as I believe they're as balanced for each class as possible.

Edit: Battle Trouble In The Neighborhood. Facing all the foliage in the map causes a lot of input lag, simply turning away from it makes it go away.
Title: Re: [IMPORTANT] Using torches/fires/candles
Post by: Vengt037 on July 18, 2012, 11:04:59 pm
Another map that causes frame rate issues for me, and I really like this map, is the modified city map w/ the one gate in the middle. Most of the map is fine, but the elevated plaza next to the gatehouse causes FPS to plummet. Not sure what that's about. I'll check the official map name next time I'm on it.