cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Leshma on July 03, 2012, 08:15:25 pm

Title: 20 Months Later
Post by: Leshma on July 03, 2012, 08:15:25 pm
I've started playing this mod in early December, seven days or so after I've bought the game on steam sale (if I'm not mistaken. Don't worry, this isn't another of those "I'm leaving" threads. This is just a retrospective.

At first, I'll talk about teamwork. Right now, teamwork isn't any better than it was when I started playing cRPG. Devs tried to change that and, since they cannot buff players minds and force them to use tactics, they decided to reduce impact single (smart and skilled) player have on battle outcome. That way, they "buffed" teamwork. This change reduced differences in player skill, which is the main point of this game.

Devs are still working on Operation Buff Teamwork, and final outcome is to make good and bad equally effective (by putting limitations on better players). That way, a group of bad players will always win against a single enemy, no matter how skilled he may be. That will be proof that teamwork has been buffed and it's finally giving results.

What that has to do with me? Well, I don't want to play game like that, which resembles crappy consoles ports. Question is, am I the only one who feels that way?

Therefore my suggestion is to stop with stupid nerfs and specialization and go back to the roots. I respect all the work you've done but that doesn't mean those changes were good. All your efforts to buff teamwork were futile, it's still where it was 20 months ago. You just made this game less interesting for those who look for a challenge and are willing to improve over time.

Remove some limitations you put on us. And make this mod more historically accurate while doing that. Think about some things you've done, dear devs. Think about results of those changes.

I'll give you a clue. Buffing individual player doesn't mean that you're nerfing teamwork. Team consists of individual players and by buffing them you're buffing the group as well. There are worse and better players, leave it that way. Worse players have two options: to cry for nerfs or to try to improve and become better. Don't fall for their trap, don't nerf the good ones because the bad ones feel insecure about themselves.


Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: HarunYahya on July 03, 2012, 08:16:59 pm
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Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Leshma on July 03, 2012, 08:19:43 pm
I've tried to keep it short as possible.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Christo on July 03, 2012, 08:19:55 pm
Quote from: koyama on July 03, 2012, 08:16:59 pm
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 :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Latrinenkobold on July 03, 2012, 08:21:47 pm
Quote from: Leshma on July 03, 2012, 08:15:25 pm
I've started playing this mod in early December, seven days or so after I've bought the game on steam sale (if I'm not mistaken. Don't worry, this isn't another of those "I'm leaving" threads. This is just a retrospective.

At first, I'll say talk about teamwork. Right now, teamwork isn't any better than it was when I started playing cRPG. Devs tried to change that and, since they cannot buff players minds and force them to use tactics, they decided to reduce impact single (smart and skilled) player have on battle outcome. That way, they "buffed" teamwork. This change reduced differences in player skill, which is the main point of this game.

Devs are still working on Operation Buff Teamwork, and final outcome is to make good and bad equally effective (by putting limitations on better players). That way, a group of bad players will always win against a single enemy, no matter how skilled he may be. That will be proof that teamwork has been buffed and it's finally giving results.

What that has to do with me? Well, I don't want to play game like that, which resembles crappy consoles ports. Question is, am I the only one who feels that way?

Therefore my suggestion is to stop with stupid nerfs and specialization and go back to the roots. I respect all the work you've done but that doesn't mean those changes were good. All your efforts to buff teamwork were futile, it's still where it was 20 months ago. You just made this game less interesting for those who look for a challenge and are willing to improve over time.

Remove some limitations you put on us. And make this mod more historically accurate while doing that. Think about some things you've done, dear devs. Think about results of those changes.

I'll give you a clue. Buffing individual player doesn't mean that you're nerfing teamwork. Team consists of individual players and by buffing them you're buffing the group as well. There are worse and better players, leave it that way. Worse players have two options: to cry for nerfs or to try to improve and become better. Don't fall for their trap, don't nerf the good ones because the bad ones feel insecure about themselves.

Hmm yeah i kinda feel the same a bit,though im looking forward to the next patch.

After all they try to make the mod better and more exciting and who knows how its going to look like in 2 months...

Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: SeQuel on July 03, 2012, 08:22:14 pm
Quote from: koyama on July 03, 2012, 08:16:59 pm
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Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 03, 2012, 08:27:45 pm
Just stop nerfing shit please...

Only way to improve teamplay and tactics is VOIP in game, and used with a "battlefield" style squad combat.  Where the squad leaders can talk to a battlefield commander, and their squad mates, and the squad members can only talk to their squad. 

Also, I still think a mandatory "practice" in the public server to go over formations would be awesome (like Mount & Musket does/did, even though it's a terrible game). 

Formations kick ass and win battles, even if it's just your team breaking up into two "mob mentality" groups who run around in a blob. 

The only time I really see any sort of formations is on super "enclosed" maps where a team will put up a shield wall and pikemen and camp. Or on open field maps where both infantry sides clash in one super large "front" that can span 20-40 people long. 

I've been in some epic strat battles where we had formations moving relatively in unison.  And I've been on the other side of some on my horse when pikemen, shielders, and 2h's were working together (with ranged behind them), and there was absolutely nothing I could do.  I could try to pick off a lone 2h'er who was 10 feet away from the group, but it was almost always suicide.

If the game made it easier for cavalry and infantry to form up and move in unison, you'd have a lot more teamwork.  Having actual cavalry charges into the flanks of an enemy would be epic.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: bosco on July 03, 2012, 08:29:53 pm
Conclusion: Buff heroes, nerf peasants.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on July 03, 2012, 08:30:32 pm
teamwork depends on the map played

open field maps tend to increase teamplay, village maps do the opposite
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Arrowblood on July 03, 2012, 08:31:20 pm
Yea i play the mod longer then Leshma :arrow: 8-)
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: RandomDude on July 03, 2012, 08:32:56 pm
Im probably stupid but I want to know why you think individual skill has been nerfed Leshma.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: rufio on July 03, 2012, 08:40:03 pm
leshma im sorry but your post is near total bogus, good players still can own 5 vs 1, nerfing lolstabs has nothing to do with nerfing skill... only thing i can think of is the cav stab arch nerf, for the rest game is still proceeding in the right direction, also i dont like your historical accuracy lobby, its very narrowminded imo, crpg has grown into a great mod, and everybody in the community has his place, from ninja to knight, and thats the way i like it, we right our own history!
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: [ptx] on July 03, 2012, 09:05:41 pm
Quote from: koyama on July 03, 2012, 08:16:59 pm
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I lol'd hard
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Korgoth on July 03, 2012, 09:19:01 pm
Quote from: koyama on July 03, 2012, 08:16:59 pm
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I read like a sentence then scrolled down and saw that and I laughed so much!
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Joker86 on July 03, 2012, 09:26:08 pm
Actually I prefer game with resonable skill ceilings.

On one hand skill should matter of course, as it's a source of motivation, but on the other hand I hate games where a few very skilled no-lifers dominate the entire rest of the average server crowd.

And on the other hand I am a big fan of realism. I prefer ArmA2 over Battlefield 3 for example. And in a real battle you HAVE to be screwed when encountering too many enemies, that's the point of having a big army. It surely isn't the joy of feeding all the hungry mouths.

I prefer battle where everyone stands in line. The shieldmen cover the rest, pikemen keep enemies on distance, archer shoot from the second line, and everyone tries to stay together and survive. I don't like battles where there is some kind of Aragorn or any Asian hero who literally flies over the battlefield, killing hundreds of enemies.

That's why I like the idea of being screwed when (heavily) outnumbered. Unless you use a smart tactic like a bottleneck or the like. Which is still something skill has little impact on.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Tanken on July 03, 2012, 09:28:01 pm
The problem with our Dev team is they're constantly removing mechanics from our game without adding anything. They add things that are pretty, but change absolutely nothing in regards to the game mechanics. When was the last time they introduced a new mechanic that everyone was actually happy about? Or introduced new weapons that did different things than what we were used to?


Long story short, the Devs remove more than they put in, and that makes for a lackluster mod and an irritable community.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: PanPan on July 03, 2012, 09:29:03 pm
I tought u RQed cRPGay already? hm.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Gravoth_iii on July 03, 2012, 09:38:56 pm
+1 to this, the satisfaction of winning a 5v1 is awesome. Teamwork should be rewarded but "heroes" should also still have a chance :) Pretty much all heroes can be stopped easily if there is a pikeman in the group anyways :/
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Pandemona on July 03, 2012, 10:10:57 pm
20 months later and still trying to balance something.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: LordBerenger on July 03, 2012, 10:15:22 pm
Quote from: koyama on July 03, 2012, 08:16:59 pm
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For some weird reason i lol'd hard when this pic showed.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Leshma on July 03, 2012, 10:18:18 pm
Quote from: bosco on July 03, 2012, 08:29:53 pm
Conclusion: Buff heroes, nerf peasants.

Not really. Just remove limitations so that everyone can play according to their skill levels. Also biggest nerf to teamwork is early active attack, more than it was nerf for "heroes". Now, many people are afraid to attack the enemy, scared of unintentional team hits. Also most weapons (even one handed weapons) get stuck on friendly player standing beside you. I'm not saying that early active attack is bad, it's realistic and makes perfect sense. However, if their goal was to nerf heroes, I must say they kinda failed with that.

Everything should be buffed, something more, something less. Maybe even higher levels for everyone (but time required to earn them should stay the same or even greatly reduced and with real cap for everyone and certain interesting bonuses for those who have more XP than needed) or same levels but with changed skills system so we gain more skill points per level. Currently, converting skill points is in many cases better choice than spending them. Maybe they should try with that, to buff skill points. That way, certain extreme build which are problematic will become thing of the past because people will be given an incentive to use skill points rather than convert them.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Fluffy_Muffin on July 03, 2012, 10:33:39 pm
Quote from: koyama on July 03, 2012, 08:16:59 pm
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Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Ptolemy on July 03, 2012, 10:37:20 pm
Quote from: Leshma on July 03, 2012, 08:15:25 pm
(click to show/hide)

This is probably the only time I'll ever agree with Leshma.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: _GTX_ on July 03, 2012, 10:41:53 pm
They did limit skill with the nerfs against right swing (hilt slash), turning speed a little bit, and so on. Making the combat pretty slow.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Gomer on July 03, 2012, 10:47:23 pm
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Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Kafein on July 03, 2012, 11:32:58 pm
Quote from: koyama on July 03, 2012, 08:16:59 pm
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As much as I like this gif I think Leshma has a point as always except when rambling about EU_4 or his own gender. However I believe this evolution actually has very little to do with the dev's work (although they can still have a good influence). Everybody has become much more skilled than they were 20 months ago, and it's a fact the game engine was not intended for our current skill level. Everything wears of with time and so does this game. It's not a mystery duels take two minutes and bows are so popular in Native. It worked extremely well back when blocking wasn't trivial. Also, already good players improve slower than noobs.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Momo on July 04, 2012, 12:02:11 am
Quote from: koyama on July 03, 2012, 08:16:59 pm
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Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: ShinySpoons on July 04, 2012, 12:10:00 am
Whats even better than a group of baddies working together is a group of skilled players working together.

Group fighting effectively still requires skills, all too often one guy can just run in circles around 5 people laughing as they kill themselves. If anything, the recent turning speed reduction has nerfed "teamwork" type actions more then 2hand heroes due to the backhanded "buff" to footwork. 
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on July 04, 2012, 12:14:15 am
Quote from: koyama on July 03, 2012, 08:16:59 pm
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+ whore  :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Rebelyell on July 04, 2012, 12:56:40 am
Quote
Remove some limitations you put on us. And make this mod more historically accurate while doing that. Think about some things you've done, dear devs. Think about results of those changes.

soo no lolstab, polestun, no finalfantasy balanced uberfast GS, no jump shot, no backpedeling like wind, no more 1h maces with weight similar to gs
(yes warchamer have weight of DGS), glancfest on plate armors, cavalery op.......
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Lichen on July 04, 2012, 01:34:30 am
I want this game to have a LARGE range of build/gear possibilities, abilities, etc as to me that makes for the most interesting and exciting game. I remember seeing a well known 'hero' player back before many nerfs who simply destroyed literally half or more of the other team and just watching that was something so amazing and exciting. Those days are gone. Now everyone feels rather similar and it's because they are I guess. I wish more players could just play a game without caring so much about 'fairness' but instead excitement and epic moments.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Leshma on July 04, 2012, 01:40:56 am
Quote from: Rebelyell on July 04, 2012, 12:56:40 am
soo no lolstab, polestagger, no finalfantasy balanced uberfast GS, no jump shot, no backpedeling like wind, no more 1h maces with weight similar to gs
(yes warchamer have weight of DGS), glancfest on plate armors, cavalery op.......

According to majority cavalery is still OP. Glancing isn't my favorite mechanics, I would buff heavy armor by giving plate armor pieces +6 modifier instead of +5 when fully loomed. One handed maces are ok, only balanced 1h weapons (others are a bit underpowered, especially swords). Backpedaling sux, I agree. I'm using it quite a lot since I have 8 ath but I agree that it's silly mechanics. Jump shot can stay, for all I agree but it will be fixed. Greatswords can stay like this if everything else get buffed. Same goes for 2h lolstab.

What I was thinking was highers level cap but cap which is reachable by everytone in 4.5 million XP, after which you retire and go for new gen, gain loom points etc. Level I would like to see as max is level 40. Quite high, I'm aware of that. But level 40 means you can have 21/24 which is very fast, yet damaging. And you have plently of skill points to spend, that way making strong hybrid build. Build like that could possibly counter both ranged and melee. That way there would be no counters, everyone could counter anyone and there would be no reason not to buff HA and similar classes who are nerfed because they don't have proper counter.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Kafein on July 04, 2012, 01:45:53 am
Quote from: Leshma on July 04, 2012, 01:40:56 am
What I was thinking was highers level cap but cap which is reachable by everytone in 4.5 million XP, after which you retire and go for new gen, gain loom points etc. Level I would like to see as max is level 40. Quite high, I'm aware of that. But level 40 means you can have 21/24 which is very fast, yet damaging. And you have plently of skill points to spend, that way making strong hybrid build. Build like that could possibly counter both ranged and melee. That way there would be no counters, everyone could counter anyone and there would be no reason not to buff HA and similar classes who are nerfed because they don't have proper counter.

I don't really see how increasing the level cap can make more space for hybrids. Pure 2h level 40 people would have the same edge over the level 40 hybrids in melee combat.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Teeth on July 04, 2012, 01:49:44 am
20 months later and the game speed dropped by about half, and the average blocking skill quadrupled.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on July 04, 2012, 01:53:28 am
Quote from: Leshma on July 03, 2012, 08:15:25 pm
I've started playing this mod in early December, seven days or so after I've bought the game on steam sale (if I'm not mistaken. Don't worry, this isn't another of those "I'm leaving" threads. This is just a retrospective.

At first, I'll talk about teamwork. Right now, teamwork isn't any better than it was when I started playing cRPG. Devs tried to change that and, since they cannot buff players minds and force them to use tactics, they decided to reduce impact single (smart and skilled) player have on battle outcome. That way, they "buffed" teamwork. This change reduced differences in player skill, which is the main point of this game.

Devs are still working on Operation Buff Teamwork, and final outcome is to make good and bad equally effective (by putting limitations on better players). That way, a group of bad players will always win against a single enemy, no matter how skilled he may be. That will be proof that teamwork has been buffed and it's finally giving results.

What that has to do with me? Well, I don't want to play game like that, which resembles crappy consoles ports. Question is, am I the only one who feels that way?

Therefore my suggestion is to stop with stupid nerfs and specialization and go back to the roots. I respect all the work you've done but that doesn't mean those changes were good. All your efforts to buff teamwork were futile, it's still where it was 20 months ago. You just made this game less interesting for those who look for a challenge and are willing to improve over time.

Remove some limitations you put on us. And make this mod more historically accurate while doing that. Think about some things you've done, dear devs. Think about results of those changes.

I'll give you a clue. Buffing individual player doesn't mean that you're nerfing teamwork. Team consists of individual players and by buffing them you're buffing the group as well. There are worse and better players, leave it that way. Worse players have two options: to cry for nerfs or to try to improve and become better. Don't fall for their trap, don't nerf the good ones because the bad ones feel insecure about themselves.

I know what you mean, I'm not completely with you on the impact I still see individual players rape train through groups and a great s&b monkey can still fuck a squad of guys.

I do think however that buffing team play would be awesome and I hope the new xp system does that with out penalising support play as well i.e range and siege (note: I'm now 1h cav again and oh how I've missed the thundering power between my thighs!).

Also more buffs like the shield buff would be great to get people to squad and stick together. Perhaps some bonus like walling up, so if you have a group of guys standing near to each other they create a barrier that stops people passing between them allowing them to control the ground in front of them (would also help with shield wall phazing) don't know if it's possible...

But yeah buffs to mobs! BUFF THE MOBS!
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Teeth on July 04, 2012, 01:59:37 am
Quote from: Leshma on July 04, 2012, 01:40:56 am
Level I would like to see as max is level 40. Quite high, I'm aware of that. But level 40 means you can have 21/24 which is very fast, yet damaging. And you have plently of skill points to spend, that way making strong hybrid build.
Lol, 21/24? I can make a 30/21 build with level 40, that would be fucking awesome. The game can actually use it, it has become very undeadly and slow. Ofcourse all the items would need to be reworked. There is probably simpler ways to buff overall damage and speed.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Gimest on July 04, 2012, 02:21:01 am
We just need to get rid of nerfing and start buffing everything up.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Leshma on July 04, 2012, 02:23:28 am
Quote from: Kafein on July 04, 2012, 01:45:53 am
I don't really see how increasing the level cap can make more space for hybrids. Pure 2h level 40 people would have the same edge over the level 40 hybrids in melee combat.

You're right. I forgot about converting those skill points into attributes and that way making 30/24 builds and such. One way is to remove conversion, but I guess many won't like that.

But if you think for a bit, archer/2h hybrid who has 21/24 build with 7 PS/PD and max wpf in both proficiencies is better than pure 2h 30/24. Sure 2h is both fast and truly damaging but if you play smart, you'll easily beat him. Also hybrid can deal with different classes, other hybrids, other pure builds. Pure 2h can't do shit against mounted ranged classes.

Things is that this type of balancing allows strong classes. No need to keep certain classes weak just because majority can't deal with them.

Whole idea is to give people a lot of points to play with. Level 30 is too limiting because you have to choose damage or speed, or middle which isn't better than any of previous choices. Being a tank is good because you can afford many mistakes and your damage is really high all the time but it's kinda boring. And you're slow, the more of your kind the slower the game. Agi builds can pack a punch thanks to speed bonus but that's situational and requires certain knowledge of the game. Also your speed varies.

With 40 level build you can be both very fast and deal decent damage which translates in buff for every weapon, people dying in realistic amount of hits (2-4 in body, 1-3 head) and everyone moving faster which means FASTER GAMEPLAY. No need to tweak every single weapon to achieve that.

Basically this: Level 40 ~ 4 mil XP, level 35 ~ 1 mil XP, level 30 ~ 200k XP. And level 40 is cap for EVERYONE. Hard cap.

There is also hard cap on wpf, let's say 175 (weapon don't profit above this margin). With 6 WM you can have 2 maxed proficiencies, with 9 WM you can max 3 proficiencies. Also limit on 12 ps/pd/pt/shield/ath/wm would be cool to avoid unbreakable shields and silly high PS STR builds.

For those like me who have 200 mil XP characters, they could make clone char option on site which will, depending on your XP, allow you certain number of max level alts which you can tune however you like.

Like this:   8 mil XP - main + alt lvl 40,
              16 mil XP - main + 2 alts lvl 40,
              40 mil XP - 4 chars lvl 40,
              80 mil XP - 5 chars lvl 40,
            180 mil XP - 6 chars lvl 40,
            420 mil XP - 7 chars lvl 40,

Everything else stays the same. Retire option, 50% loss when respec etc.

But this will minimize grind, levels will become meaningless because they would become easy attainable. Also looms will be easier to get because you need 2.2 less time to earn them.

This would kill the mod but not because it will create imbalance but because it would kill the main thing that keeps most people playing cRPG and that's grinding looms and levels. Aka chadz has no ball to even try something like this because he knows very well what is the main reason why people are so addicted to cRPG.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Pollux on July 04, 2012, 02:51:55 am


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Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Cicero on July 04, 2012, 05:05:48 am
They don't want me hero in this mod , even if that i can still people in 1 vs 9 but totally they don't want heroes i agree with you leshma and this is bullshit why the fak i must play with those retards to kill other retards ?
I am a fuckin hero i can kill at least 4 enemies at the same time why do u want it to be nerfed ? Why we must a fuckin bot ?
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Gomer on July 04, 2012, 05:12:48 am
Quote from: Cicero on July 04, 2012, 05:05:48 am
They don't want me hero in this mod , even if that i can still people in 1 vs 9 but totally they don't want heroes i agree with you leshma and this is bullshit why the fak i must play with those retards to kill other retards ?
I am a fuckin hero i can kill at least 4 enemies at the same time why do u want it to be nerfed ? Why we must a fuckin bot ?
Cause it's not about game play it's about stoping people from bitches. Go back to old cRPG delete forums. Every1 shutup
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Vibe on July 04, 2012, 07:58:52 am
I kind of agree. Individual players (heros) have been nerfed a bit. I actually never saw a problem with teamwork - those who did it back then still do it now and it helped your team win drastically. If you want teamwork it's just best to get a clan, that is up to the player to do, not the game to force it.

We all know it's near impossible to make pub play be more team oriented. Why not leave it to clans? Those who seek teamwork should find a clan, simple as that. No need to drop the skill ceiling. Good players were never a problem versus a team who knew how to work together (not back then and even less now).

That being said, I am hoping for the promised improvements to increase the speed of the game etc etc
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Leshma on July 04, 2012, 10:48:20 am
We're making job harder for the devs.

We (majority) don't want strong individual players and that's where all those cries for nerfs come from.

We don't want strong teamwork. I've already suggested formation bonuses (and Gazda before me) which is the best way to buff teamwork but it got downvoted pretty quick. And whenever some group is playing well, someone comes here to cry for nerf (against: GK, Byzantium on EU; PRO on NA).

And because we don't like anything to be strong, devs listened to us and nerfed everything over time. Now, we qq that game is easy and slow.

After 20 months this community finally wants to revert some changes, to buff many things but I'm afraid as soon smallest buff happens cries for nerfs will start again.

Devs should ignore what we're writing here for some time, make a master plan which will include some of the good suggestions that were posted over time and some of their own ideas that none of us thought of. Work on that for some time and then implement it in one go, changing the game completely, making it faster, more challenging yet still very balanced.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: cmp on July 04, 2012, 11:22:33 am
Quote from: Leshma on July 04, 2012, 10:48:20 am
Devs should ignore what we're writing here for some time, make a master plan which will include some of the good suggestions that were posted over time and some of their own ideas that none of us thought of. Work on that for some time and then implement it in one go, changing the game completely, making it faster, more challenging yet still very balanced.

That's what we've been doing for a long time, and the changes and nerfs you attribute to the community whine are actually part of it.

Sorry to disappoint you.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Vibe on July 04, 2012, 11:29:32 am
nerf archers
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Miracle on July 04, 2012, 11:32:36 am
buff cav
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Vibe on July 04, 2012, 11:33:46 am
enhance throwing hammers
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: [ptx] on July 04, 2012, 11:35:14 am
sophisticate long mauls
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Miracle on July 04, 2012, 11:36:57 am
speed up katana
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Fluffy_Muffin on July 04, 2012, 11:38:20 am
rename elegant poleaxe to gentlemans poleaxe
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Gomer on July 04, 2012, 12:10:59 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on July 04, 2012, 11:22:33 am
That's what we've been doing for a long time, and the changes and nerfs you attribute to the community whine are actually part of it.

Sorry to disappoint you.
Biggest Troll Ever? Suggestion Corner....
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: MB passionately on July 04, 2012, 12:12:51 pm

The majority of the players in crpg spend more than 500 hours of playing, I would guess most more than 1000 hours. So let me be a heretic and say that 90% of these "thats unfair, should be nerfed/buffed etc" come from players who are a bit bored or are so anxious to lose their privileges they fought so hard for.

I bet most crpg players dont play other modules like native or WFaS anymore. Neither me, they got so boring. MB Native mod is full of "I want to make the kill despite 6vs1 melee" guys, WFaS a nice game, but just a few good teams there (Barabe one of them) and strange realism.

The level of competitiveness in crpg is shocking at the beginning.
And it´s not only some OP Kuyak running around with high stats and MW shit in his hands, its the teamplay. As infantry, if you loose sight with the main body of the team, your chances to survive shrink dramatically. On the other hand, with a small platoon of 5 or 6 clanmates, you get decent kills and survive longer. Of course one can ninja, play lonesome cav or archer, but it´s rarely as rewarding.
Plus, some inf classes dont work without teamwork (especially hoplite/pike classes). Also good cav players are not the selfish predators looking for easy backstabbing kills, but those who cav advance with a team or cover the retreat of a squad from time to time.

Ok, to make a long blah blah short:

crpg´s teamplay is not 100%, but most of the big clans emphasize it and it´s one of their main reason for success.
After all, it´s just a game where people log in, play a few (or more :lol:) rounds, kill or die and then spawn again. In real life everybody would stick together as we all got only one life- in a game a lot of players dont want to listen to commands, want to try out things etc. We´re hedonists while we play!

Devs cannot influence everything, they just give us players a frame. And they are successful with it, as this great mod is really addictive.
Looking forward to the new assist system tho!


Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: bruce on July 04, 2012, 12:41:58 pm
Quote from: Chagan_Arslan on July 03, 2012, 08:30:32 pm
teamwork depends on the map played

open field maps tend to increase teamplay, village maps do the opposite

This.

The only time I saw teamwork in crpg is somewhere after the wipe when everyone was playing on EU4 which had mostly large random plains in rotation and lots of players.

The only way crpg players will stay in something resembling a formation is to make random :chaaarge: not work against a team which fights in formation, and the only chance of that happening is in open plains.

Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Rebelyell on July 04, 2012, 01:25:00 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on July 04, 2012, 11:22:33 am
That's what we've been doing for a long time, and the changes and nerfs you attribute to the community whine are actually part of it.

Sorry to disappoint you.

devs did greate job,
+1
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Joker86 on July 04, 2012, 01:41:28 pm
In my opinion teamplay is part of playing as infantry as much as archers need to find a good shooting position or cavalry needs to wait until someone turns his back to them.

People will always claim that a good infantryman can play a Ninja and sneak upon enemy archers and suddenly kill a few of them, but if he would move with other infantry, and keep formation (shields in front, two handed weapons behind them, doesn't mean you have to walk "in line", a loose formation is perfectly enough) you can kill them in any way. Same about fighting multiple enemies. Never mind how awesome a single player is, if he is supported properly he can always kill more enemies than on his own. That's why it's mandatory for infantry to play as a team.

You can see the need very well when comparing to other classes. The different cavalry classes for example can't support each other at all. If anything, they are useful as a distraction for the enemy, and that's not bound to cavalry. Still they can be fend off by spearmen/pikemen and countered by ranged players.

Ranged players on the other side can support each other only a bit. There is a mechanic that in a bunch of ranged players every ranged player more increases the overall strength of the group not linearly but exponentially. But it doesn't matter much if those are archers, crossbowmen or throwers. All that counts for them is that the guy next to them is shooting enemies as well and thus protecting them. Still they remain weak against shielders, given that the same amount of shielder approaches the group of ranged players.

But infantry is something completely different! Take for example a group with a shielder, a 2hd swordman and a pikeman. Suddenly such a group has no counter any more, but offers the counter to everything! There is no class which, combined into a group of three, can deal with such a group easily, if the infantry group knows how to play together. No combination of cavalrymen can suddenly render the pike useless against them, and no group of ranged players can suddenly make the shield stop catching missiles. The extend in which the different infantry classes can buf each other exceeds the extend of buff of all other classes by far.

That's why I think that even pubs, who don't play in a clan, should play as a team to maximize their performance. It can't be that I am the only one who had that insight about teamplay.  :?


I know there is the point about player who give a fuck about their multiplier or winning rounds, all they want to do is to fight. Which led me to the insight that the battle mode is wrong for both, players who want to win battles and players who want to win fights. That's why I made another topic about different game modes. It would be nice to see how the suggestions and nerf cries develop when the community gets "divided" that way. I bet the "duelists" will still complain about cav bein OP, while it will be heavily UP on the teamplay servers. Along with a few other discrepancies.  :wink:
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: sharker807 on July 04, 2012, 01:43:50 pm
nerf cav, that's all they need to do
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Vibe on July 04, 2012, 01:44:25 pm
please, someone teach Joker86 to make short, comprehensive posts instead of those essays from which the point can be summed up in one sentence
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Joker86 on July 04, 2012, 01:47:48 pm
Quote from: Vibe on July 04, 2012, 01:44:25 pm
please, someone teach Joker86 to make short, comprehensive posts instead of those essays from which the point can be summed up in one sentence

I do it to prevent people of misunderstanding me. If I write "teamplay is essential part of the infantry gameplay", the next wise guy will come around and write "lol no, idiot. I sneak upon archers and sometimes I don't die and can kill a few of them."

Btw. I don't know how people think that the conversation about a matter like basic gameplay and balance can be lead with posts of one to three sentences.  :?
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Gomer on July 04, 2012, 01:48:09 pm
Quote from: Vibe on July 04, 2012, 01:44:25 pm
please, someone teach Joker86 to make short, comprehensive posts instead of those essays from which the point can be summed up in one sentence
It's a forum not a phone sex line. Keep it short and sweet and get to the point.
THIS +1
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: _Tak_ on July 04, 2012, 01:50:33 pm
20 months later cRPG still alive?
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Polobow on July 04, 2012, 03:33:47 pm
Quote from: Joker86 on July 04, 2012, 01:47:48 pm
I do it to prevent people of misunderstanding me. If I write "teamplay is essential part of the infantry gameplay", the next wise guy will come around and write "lol no, idiot. I sneak upon archers and sometimes I don't die and can kill a few of them."

Btw. I don't know how people think that the conversation about a matter like basic gameplay and balance can be lead with posts of one to three sentences.  :?

Please keep making long posts. I love them and we need more of you and WaltF4
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Kajia on July 04, 2012, 04:49:47 pm
Quote from: Leshma on July 03, 2012, 10:18:18 pm
Not really. Just remove limitations so that everyone can play according to their skill levels.
this. and i agree on having more historically accuracy too. but i don't really understand what your original post rant is about in general. it seems rather contradictory in terms of nerf this and buff that. and if you want to remove limitations, then why make more levels ...?! nah, i don't get it.
i think you are frustrated for some reason. i can't tell why, but Kafein makes a good point:

Quote from: Kafein on July 03, 2012, 11:32:58 pm
As much as I like this gif I think Leshma has a point as always except when rambling about EU_4 or his own gender. However I believe this evolution actually has very little to do with the dev's work (although they can still have a good influence). Everybody has become much more skilled than they were 20 months ago, and it's a fact the game engine was not intended for our current skill level. Everything wears of with time and so does this game. It's not a mystery duels take two minutes and bows are so popular in Native. It worked extremely well back when blocking wasn't trivial. Also, already good players improve slower than noobs.
this hits the spot.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Burr1ck on July 04, 2012, 04:52:06 pm
It's very very hard for the developers to change the game to force teamwork without annoying the community, once they added an xp bonus for players who can stand in a line lol which seems unrealistic and tedious. If the developers get too forceful to impose teamwork well I think that's bad because it'll restrict our freedom and annoy players, thing I love about this mod is that it's free-flowing and you can be whatever you wanna be which makes the game very appealing and liberating. You decide whether you want to be an individual player or a team player, the developers don't interfere with that and I prefer it to be that way.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: RUSSOxD2366 on July 04, 2012, 05:42:24 pm
Hows that for a start

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ESo-GRlOm50#t=62s

GIVE ME EYE TAKE OUT!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Grumbs on July 04, 2012, 06:07:19 pm
I quite like the way it is atm. You get an abstract "help your team to win, get more gold/xp". If you try to force it with more gold/xp for being near fights or similar stuff you will end up with people gaming the system rather than doing what they believe is in the team's best interests. You will get people who feel unrewarded eventhough they are filling an important role in the team. You could even go further and take out kill point except for the end of the match so its not factoring in people's minds when playing

I would leave the multi system as it is except for when your team loses a round - I would make it less severe and only half the teams multi or make you only lose 1x per team loss. When people are at x5 and feel they can't leave well I don't really think thats necessarily a bad thing. If you only lose x1 or half your multi for losing a round then how about letting people keep half their multi after they leave, so if you leave you come back to x3 or so.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Leshma on July 04, 2012, 06:07:46 pm
Quote from: Kajia on July 04, 2012, 04:49:47 pm
and if you want to remove limitations, then why make more levels ...?!

I'm level 35 and I'm not planning to retire. Do you know why?

Not because I like having advantage over other players. I like being high leveled char because it's awesome. My build deals decent damage but it's very fast. Whenever I play on alt I miss that fast paced gameplay. Currently, level 30 in order to be fast like me needs to make many sacrifices.

I do like playing on my main but I would like it more if I had more options at hand. You see, I'm pure build and that means I can't do anything against certain classes. I think that's bullshit.

Historical accuracy means that there are "classes" like knights, various types of mercenaries, archers, sharpshooters etc.

For example, knights were nobleman which means they were very well equipped. They were cav, but also were very skilled warriors and used most weapons very well. Mercenaries weren't rich people but they were also skilled with different weapons. Most archers trained with melee weapons just in case of emergency.

I doubt that archers and sharpshooters were much worse in melee combat than typical soldier of that age. Typical soldier was a recruit, a peasant who was forced to fight. He wasn't professional soldier. His skills with bow or riding skills were very poor. He was meant to die in first lines. Cannon fodder of medieval age. He had a shield and sword and maybe some spear.

With current level system most of us are roleplaying common semi-skilled soldier. Or some fantasy pure variants of cavalry, archers etc. Real knights and archers aren't possible in cRPG.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: RandomDude on July 04, 2012, 07:09:01 pm
If u think Joker made a long post no wonder no1 bothered to read my story.

Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Rebelyell on July 04, 2012, 07:30:56 pm
I never ever read single post of him...
can you image hes unban essey?
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Christo on July 04, 2012, 07:50:35 pm
Quote from: Fluffy_Muffin on July 04, 2012, 11:38:20 am
rename elegant poleaxe to gentlemans poleaxe

Best.

Suggestion.

Ever.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: LordBerenger on July 04, 2012, 07:53:10 pm
Quote from: RandomDude on July 04, 2012, 07:09:01 pm
If u think Joker made a long post no wonder no1 bothered to read my story.

What story?
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Sivlan on July 04, 2012, 10:30:13 pm
i believe it could be a good idea to Host ''hero server'' experimental server with some buffs removed (increased movement/melee/shooting speed, make it more like an year ago - when i started) for some time and check reactions of people playing it. that would be better than constant whinning / flaming on forums, becouse it would show reactions after rebuffing some of previous nerfs. if that wouldnt work, you could just remove the server after some time and think of other changes in that mod.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: cmp on July 04, 2012, 10:40:20 pm
Quote from: Sivlan on July 04, 2012, 10:30:13 pm
i believe it could be a good idea to Host ''hero server'' experimental server with some buffs removed (increased movement/melee/shooting speed, make it more like an year ago - when i started) for some time and check reactions of people playing it. that would be better than constant whinning / flaming on forums, becouse it would show reactions after rebuffing some of previous nerfs. if that wouldnt work, you could just remove the server after some time and think of other changes in that mod.

Been there, done that, didn't work.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: LordBerenger on July 04, 2012, 10:43:28 pm
If you're talking about XmasCRPG it was that DRZ and turk guy archers fault it failed. Also no admins.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: cmp on July 04, 2012, 10:44:50 pm
Yeah, and the reptilians sabotaged it as well.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: LordBerenger on July 04, 2012, 10:48:37 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on July 04, 2012, 10:44:50 pm
Yeah, and the reptilians sabotaged it as well.

Absolutely. Psst. (don't tell him i said it but i have it on a good authority that Fasader is a shapeshifting lizard in real life but don't tell him i said that because he might come to my house and kill me and drink my blood).
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Leshma on July 05, 2012, 12:01:06 am
Quote from: CountBerenger on July 04, 2012, 10:43:28 pm
If you're talking about XmasCRPG it was that DRZ and turk guy archers fault it failed. Also no admins.

Reasons why XmasCRPG failed:

- silly name, implies short life expentancy
- old version of a game without actual support (comes with bugs that are fixed in newer versions)
- nature of old cRPG which means imbalance, which ends with everyone wearing black armor and riding plated charger
- two versions of the same mod, where xmascrpg has no future (we knew it won't last long)

What I'm suggesting is a lot different, with all fixes and good changes, including upkeep, reduced difference in levels between players but with all the good stuff old cRPG had. And it's meant to be future of cRPG, not some silly fork or whatever.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Lichen on July 05, 2012, 12:01:17 am
Quote from: Leshma on July 04, 2012, 02:23:28 am
Basically this: Level 40 ~ 4 mil XP, level 35 ~ 1 mil XP, level 30 ~ 200k XP. And level 40 is cap for EVERYONE. Hard cap.
I'd like to see level 40 at like 40,000,000 xp. Maybe a bit more maybe a bit less. Basically the idea is to make it realistically achievable but not by everyone. Also no hard cap. Also bring back old armor protection values.

Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: LordBerenger on July 05, 2012, 12:15:23 am
No upkeep lol. You crazy Leshma.

And the fun thing with old crpg was that everything was so unbalanced that it balanced itself out. For example. Crazy archery, hard dmging xbows, tincans, p chargers you name it. Almost everything was ''unbalanced''. Also what's the point in bringing back old crpg if you're gonna implement upkeep and other stuff that came afterwards. Only fixing bugs and having admins on those servers (ask around willing people who got good rep to admin).

But i agree with the name. Some people didn't play it because the name insinuated that the mod would be over in January or so.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Vicious666 on July 05, 2012, 01:34:39 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 05, 2012, 01:45:39 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Count_Curtis on July 05, 2012, 04:12:53 am
Quote from: koyama on July 03, 2012, 08:16:59 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Baggy on July 05, 2012, 04:13:35 am
Quote
becouse an image is worth a thousand words

Quote from: Vicious666 on July 05, 2012, 01:34:39 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: San on July 05, 2012, 04:19:38 am
Or three.
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Aderyn on July 05, 2012, 05:10:31 am
i didn't play the xmas server because whenever i joined in there was a plated charger dude in plate against a HORDE of naked peasants. some had wooden swords. like 4 of the 20 of us. I dno, just got tired of getting slaughtered like that after 30min...
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: LordBerenger on July 05, 2012, 05:40:23 am
Quote from: Aderyn on July 05, 2012, 05:10:31 am
i didn't play the xmas server because whenever i joined in there was a plated charger dude in plate against a HORDE of naked peasants. some had wooden swords. like 4 of the 20 of us. I dno, just got tired of getting slaughtered like that after 30min...

U seriuz? Doubt somebody got plate armor in Xmas serv. I remember Zapper (i believe it was Zapper...:o or maybe VVarlord forgot) and i who were first cavs in Xmas serv with Sumpter horses. Quit a bit after it and less than a month after i quit that servers went down if i remember correct.

Really doubt somebody managed to get a Plated Charger with full plate.

Biggest reason being that the serv was almost always empty and archers raped everyone (Kunio and Vovka i believe, you bastards).
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: TurmoilTom on July 05, 2012, 05:47:01 am
Aderyn's talking about old cRPG, it's just that to him, xmasRPG is just a synonym for it.

Anyway, I've been saying this, and I'll say it again here: I would have played xmasRPG more if I thought it was going to be permanent, but it was obvious by the name that it wasn't going to stick around long. I *did* however get to see chadz in-game for once, and that was totally worth it (and his joke about DDoSing YouPorn xD).

EDIT: Found the YouPorn.com joke.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: Kajia on July 05, 2012, 11:59:09 am
Quote from: Leshma on July 04, 2012, 06:07:46 pm
I'm level 35 and I'm not planning to retire. Do you know why?

Not because I like having advantage over other players. I like being high leveled char because it's awesome. My build deals decent damage but it's very fast. Whenever I play on alt I miss that fast paced gameplay. Currently, level 30 in order to be fast like me needs to make many sacrifices.

I do like playing on my main but I would like it more if I had more options at hand. You see, I'm pure build and that means I can't do anything against certain classes. I think that's bullshit.

Historical accuracy means that there are "classes" like knights, various types of mercenaries, archers, sharpshooters etc.

For example, knights were nobleman which means they were very well equipped. They were cav, but also were very skilled warriors and used most weapons very well. Mercenaries weren't rich people but they were also skilled with different weapons. Most archers trained with melee weapons just in case of emergency.

I doubt that archers and sharpshooters were much worse in melee combat than typical soldier of that age. Typical soldier was a recruit, a peasant who was forced to fight. He wasn't professional soldier. His skills with bow or riding skills were very poor. He was meant to die in first lines. Cannon fodder of medieval age. He had a shield and sword and maybe some spear.

With current level system most of us are roleplaying common semi-skilled soldier. Or some fantasy pure variants of cavalry, archers etc. Real knights and archers aren't possible in cRPG.

absolutely. but what you want is not more levels, but less restrictions in usage of weapons, armor and horses and maybe even less restrictions in skills and attributes too. i think we can have that without having more levels, we should simply get more skill/attribute points out of them.
you see, leveling implies that you have huge differences in progress between players. but of course, if you say leveling should also get faster to counter this, this could be a way, but here i see the problem that players might feel more devoted to leveling instead of playing (= the so called 'grinding effect' = playing for points sake, not the gameplay itself). it's an issue of numbers versus the action. i hate numbers taking over my incentive to do whatever i do.
do you understand my point?
Title: Re: 20 Months Later
Post by: BlueKnight on July 05, 2012, 03:38:16 pm
Leshma, your thoughts are narrow. You can't foresee what happens next. With your builds and high levels etc. Archery would bring doom to all other players. Moreover these archers would manage to fight in melee like damn great players do, so fighting with them would be still annoying and long. What is more, with lower serverspeed you can fight in 1vs3 or worse situations because you can block most if not all of the enemy swings. If the server speed was higher you wouldn't do shit so it's buffing heroes somehow.

You had better think about every class, about abusing then multiply the problems x2 and you would know how this mod would look like. I guess our devs have bigger experience in balancing and mod improving than you. Maybe write down thoughts and then make "good and weak points list"?

ALSO TAKE CLOTHES OFF AND YOU WILL BE FAST