cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: XyNox on June 21, 2012, 11:24:16 am
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Foreword
Polestagger has been removed.
Some people are very happy about that, some are not. There are a lot of conversations right now whether and how to compensate for the loss of polestagger for polearms as it weakens their support capabilities.
Overhead/Stab turnspeed has been lowered
Quite some polearms rely on their thrusts as their main source of damage. Quite some polearms are 2 directional or even 1 directional. For these kind of weapons the turnlimit has a much greater impact than for weapons which have sideswings at their disposal.
Additionally
Cmp introduced a new mechanic for the game to register, whether weapons hit with different parts and respectively different damage types as shown here:
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,34371.0.html
The currect results state 197 votes are in favour of implementing this new system, 31 are not. Since it is most likely that a polearm hits harder with its blade than with the hilt, this change would mean that range control will get a lot more important while using certain polearms in order to attack with full efficiency, thus encouraging to keep the correct distance to target as much as possible, arguably pushing, especially the longer polearms one step closer to become more of a support class.
Secondary modes
Some time ago secondary modes found its way into the game, allowing to choose which side of the weapon to hit with ( i.e. blunt, sparp or pointy side ) or switching between one handed and two handed use of the weapon. While being undeniably usefull in some situations I dont think, and this is a personal opinion based on personal observations, the secondary mode is used often. IMO the secondary mode on quite some weapons is not worth using it.
When I was looking at some polearms recently I noticed this:
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There are polearms with those kind of thorns. In some cases they can be used to achieve pierce damage, in some cases they cant be used at all. I am no historian but I think those thorns or hooks were used to entangle in enemy flesh or armor to hold them at distance rather then slashing at someone with it, being more of a tool of crowd control than actually dishing out damage. I think getting polestaggered in game is a relatively close representation of the real life process.
Suggestion
In order to compensate for the restrictions that have been applied to polearms, pushing them somewhat closer to fit a support role, give them more support abilies.
Enable suitable polearms with thorns and hooks as shown above to have a "stagger" secondary mode. Once active it may limit the polearm to thrust only with a low damage output but in turn it gains a very high, if not a guaranteed chance of staggering the enemy. To keep polearms from being abused in 1on1 situations due to the high staggering chance, a longer thruststun after successfully staggering someone could be implemented. This would represent the weapon getting entangled in the enemy and prevents switching weapon modes instantly after the enemy is staggered so no quick follow up strike is possible.
Minor adjustments to the thrust animation when in stagger-mode, i.e. tilting the weapon by 45°, another stance or whatever so other people can see what mode you are using at the time might or might not be added.
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Constructive criticism is welcome
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You wouldn't need to adjust the animation just flip the weapon over.
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You wouldn't need to adjust the animation just flip the weapon over.
That sound remarkably logical, didnt even think of that :D
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This idea is brilliant.
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I've voted "no". I don't want any kind of abnormal stun.
Most of the weapons you've shown with pictures have bonus against shields, and the English Bill deals a relatively high pierce damage.
I think polearms are just fine. If anything should be changed, I'd say increase their damage, like Leshma suggested in the first place. That, or replace greatswords' left swing and stab with those of polearms (like the flamberge, yet keeping the current overhead animation). Then 2h wouldn't be so easy and dangerous, and you would stop whining about your silly old mechanic.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lITBGjNEp08&feature=player_detailpage#t=4s
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I've voted "no". I don't want any kind of abnormal stun.
Most of the weapons you've shown with pictures have bonus against shields, and the English Bill deals a relatively high pierce damage.
I think polearms are just fine. If anything should be changed, I'd say increase their damage, like Leshma suggested in the first place.
Alrighty, I can't prove anything, but you sound like a 2 hander. For 2 gens I've been playing a hybrid 2h/polearm build (I've done 12 gens of 2h and 1 of 1h), and the 2h portion is just easier to use in every case. But I'm not a lolpoker. Polearm is being nerfed twice in a row (once with polestagger and once with turn reduction), thus making polearm even less usable compared to 2h. Bonus against shields makes some polearms less shitty, but they are still a lot worse than 2 handers. From the start, polearms suffer due to their shitty, easy to block animations that greatly reduce their length. From my experience, with the exception of a sneak attack from behind, polestagger can only be used in a support sense unless you attempt to chamber the second attack after the stagger which will generally fail every time.
tl;dr Polearms and 2h were close to balance before the patch but nerfing polearms twice and nerfing 2h once does not make them more even, it increases the gap.
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I like your idea. I'd like to hear from someone regarding those thorn things though, as I think that may or may not break this idea in half. I know cRPG isn't all about realism, but I kind of like to keep it at least somewhat plausible.
If those thorns were, in fact, used to entangle enemies, I'm in full support of this idea.
It allows polearm users to choose their roles as a mainline fighter, or a support user. I think that the thorn should do minimal damage, in exchange for the polestagger that was recently removed, if it were to be implemented.
Thanks for bringing that to light! I like the idea.
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From wikipedia;
The halberd consists of an axe blade topped with a spike mounted on a long shaft. It always has a hook or thorn on the back side of the axe blade for grappling mounted combatants
Fluke: A metal hook on the head of certain staff weapons (such as a bill), made in various forms depending on function, whether used for grappling or to penetrate armour when swung at an opponent.
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It allows polearm users to choose their roles as a mainline fighter, or a support user. I think that the thorn should do minimal damage, in exchange for the polestagger that was recently removed, if it were to be implemented.
This was the exact intention behind my suggestion. I dont want polearms to get OP, but I think, when you take the implementation of the mechanic introduced by cmp for granted ( 84.8% votes yes as of now so I dont see a reasion to discard the work that have been put into coding this ) it is quite some change which does not exactly work in favour of polearms.
Especially 2 directional polearms suffer from every single "nerf": Turn speed limit, loss of polestagger, accurate weapon hit zones. Im sure devs know this very well and are most likely already working on compensating for these losses. I just wanted to use the opportunity and suggest something that I think would be something new, something fun and something fresh to make melee combat more interesting and thought out. That is why I clearly mentioned that there should be a significant delay between using the 2 modes consecutively, either by getting a thrust stun when staggering someone as mentioned in the OP or either adding a delay when switching weapon modes in general/just on long polearms.
The effect inflicted on target I am talking about is nothing more than regular polestagger. The thing everyone had to deal with over years, just now you can do it intentionally but in turn have to sacrifice attackspeed and damage. Of course stunlocking people with this should not be possible and downblock as ultimate defence still applies.
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Bump
Causing a reversed knockback when staggering someone in the sammer manner when receiving a kick, just the enemy moves towards you representing "pullling" the enemy with the hook might be a nice addition.
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Would be hard to balance and a lot of work for our already overworked programmers (as is everything) but pulling people off horses with a polearm? Tackling them with a hook? Sounds good.
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Im no programmer but imagine it can be achieved by setting some flags and typing some random numbers.
Like
If secondary mode = stagger 100%
If secondary mode = thrust only
If hit in secondary mode = thrust stun 1 sec ( or whatever )
If hit in secondary mode = kick knockback with knockback value -100%
If hit in secondary mode on horserider with speed over x = autodismount with falling animation and stun
So much for pseudo lines of code.