cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Doppel on June 08, 2012, 01:11:19 pm

Title: Weapon master
Post by: Doppel on June 08, 2012, 01:11:19 pm
Hey!

Is weaponmaster really important if you skill only one proficiency?
I played for a while with 120 points in polearm because i considered to make a hybrid. But after I spent the rest in it (140 points), i really can't feel a difference.
Title: Re: Weapon master
Post by: rustyspoon on June 08, 2012, 01:40:27 pm
Weaponmaster is only important if you:

1. Are a hybrid
2. Are ranged
3. Duel with a long maul
Title: Re: Weapon master
Post by: Bjord on June 08, 2012, 02:00:07 pm
Uhm, rustyspoon got the last part completely wrong. It is very useful and not only if you "duel with a long maul"(slowest melee weapon in the game).

If you want to be flexible in combat you really want wpf, but if you're cav you can make it with only 100-110 polewpf and put the rest in something else.

That being said, if you are infantry you want as much as possible.

Title: Re: Weapon master
Post by: Casimir on June 08, 2012, 02:12:47 pm
As far as I rememberer WPF also has a direct effect on the amount of damage that your weapon does, not only its attack speed.  At 100 WPF the stats shown on your weapon are 'True' of what effect it has ingame.  Less than 100 WPF your player will swing the weapon slower and do less damage than displayed on the stats and over 100 these stats will increase.

As such WPF can become very important, but going over 150 becomes overly expensive and fairly redundant.
Title: Re: Weapon master
Post by: rustyspoon on June 08, 2012, 02:49:04 pm
Uhm, rustyspoon got the last part completely wrong. It is very useful and not only if you "duel with a long maul"(slowest melee weapon in the game).

If you want to be flexible in combat you really want wpf, but if you're cav you can make it with only 100-110 polewpf and put the rest in something else.

That being said, if you are infantry you want as much as possible.

Nope. You can still spam the shit out of people even with no WM and good footwork. Hell, on all my builds after armor reduction I only have 94 wpf and I still spam the hell out of people. Athletics is far, far more important than WPF for infantry. Also, past a certain point it doesn't do much for damage. The difference between 94 wpf and 150 wpf is about 3 points of damage. Better off investing that in more PS.

As far as swing speed goes, the difference between using 0 WM and 9 WM is you'll swing your weapon .06 seconds faster. Yep, good use of points alright.

The return on WM is so terrible, it's only really worth it in my first 2 examples and the 3rd is just for shits and giggles.
Title: Re: Weapon master
Post by: Corwin on June 08, 2012, 02:55:00 pm
I found that investing only 3 points in WM works OK for me. It gets you about 130 wpf, and allows more interesting lvl 30 builds, such as 18/24, 24/18 and my favorite -  30/12.
Title: Re: Weapon master
Post by: Vibe on June 08, 2012, 02:56:04 pm
I found that investing only 3 points in WM works OK for me. It gets you about 130 wpf, and allows more interesting lvl 30 builds, such as 18/24, 24/18 and my favorite -  30/12.


Yep, I have 3WM - 130 WPF myself and it works just fine. Maxing IF was way more worth it.
Title: Re: Weapon master
Post by: oprah_winfrey on June 08, 2012, 03:23:18 pm
As it stands, WM is the least important skill. It almost acts as a plug...ok i maxed out ps and ath, time to pump IF, ok thats maxed I guess I will put the last 3 in WM.
Title: Re: Weapon master
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 08, 2012, 03:26:32 pm
Hybrids and archers should probably be maxing WM.  If I was melee with only one WPF skill, then I'd probably invest 2 or 3 points into WM to get me to the 130ish mark (so after armor you're still above 100, and depending on how much weight, still well above 100). 
Title: Re: Weapon master
Post by: Phazey on June 08, 2012, 03:42:32 pm
I seem to notice a distinct difference between say ~130 wpf and the ~145 wpf i use on most of my builds. There is less of a difference between ~145 and ~154 though. Could be placebo, who knows.

As someone who uses spamming a lot, i tend to max out WM to ensure i have maximal spamming potential.

Footwork is key, ofcourse. But so is swing speed. Every time i'd fail at spamming someone, i'd be thinking it was the lower weapon mastery.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Weapon master
Post by: Kafein on June 08, 2012, 03:50:40 pm
I seem to notice a distinct difference between say ~130 wpf and the ~145 wpf i use on most of my builds. There is less of a difference between ~145 and ~154 though. Could be placebo, who knows.

As someone who uses spamming a lot, i tend to max out WM to ensure i have maximal spamming potential.

Footwork is key, ofcourse. But so is swing speed. Every time i'd fail at spamming someone, i'd be thinking it was the lower weapon mastery.  :rolleyes:

Filthy phazh !

Tbh I really like having a lot of WM. It only becomes meh over 4 or 5 WM for one melee prof.


Also keep in mind that wpf is more important when using slow weapons. It has very limited effect on very high speed weapons. I know that from some technical thread, but I don't remember what the reason was exactly.
Title: Re: Weapon master
Post by: Phazey on June 08, 2012, 04:04:46 pm
It's over a year old, but i don't think the WPF system has been changed since then. Has it?

(click to show/hide)

Anyways, he says:  To put this in perspective, a level 30 character with 3 agility, no weapon master, and 110 polearm proficiency would attack ~5% slower than a level 30 character with 27 agility, 9 weapon master, and 180 polearm proficiency if both characters were to use a speed 94 polearm

So from 110 to 180 -> a 70 WPF difference causes about a 5% difference in swing speeds. That would be 14 points of WPF for every 1 % of swing speed.

From this, i'm guessing for a 100 speed weapon, the difference between ~130 WPF and ~153 WPF  (WM3 or WM6) is probably close to 1%. Yet that might just make the 0.10 second difference you need to spam someone.

I really don't know, never did any real research and most of my guestimations are based on feeling and are therefore highly unreliable. I cannot rule out that is a placebo effect and purely psychological.
Title: Re: Weapon master
Post by: Doppel on June 08, 2012, 04:31:58 pm
Thanks to all for your answers so far  :)
Title: Re: Weapon master
Post by: Elmokki on June 08, 2012, 04:59:21 pm
I didn't see the exact damage formula, but anyway:

0 wpf (purely theoretical since minimum is 1) results in 85% damage done. Each 100 wpf points add 15% to that, so basically 100 wpf is 100%, 150 wpf is 107.5%, 200 wpf is 115% and so on. The first 100 wpf or so are cheap enough to get that it's probably worth it in many cases (compared to 2 points of power strike being roughly the same, though exact absolute power isn't comparable as easily as saying 2 PS is 16% damage)

Armor also reduces your wpf. I'm not sure if it affects weapon damage / swing speed, but I assume so. Yet if you consider the bonuses wpf grants neglible, it's probably still not worth it to stack huge wpf, since it's seriously very expensive use for stat points.

Basically as has been said before, don't take more than a couple of points of WM unless you are ranged or going for multiple profiencies. There are some extreme cases when wm beats converting to strength and getting ps may be worse. One of those is obviously when you don't have 7 points to get 3 str and 1 ps and you absolutely want damage no matter how neglible the boost is. You could also consider a level 30 18/18 player who has 0 wm and precisely 7 spare points. He'd get ~5.4% extra damage from 3 str and ps (1.48 -> 1.56 multiplier increase) and 3/5 points of static damage from strength. 6 wm would net about 50 wpf. From 110 wpf to 160 wpf the damage boost would be 7.4% (1.015 ->  1.09 multiplier increase). In this case the extra wpf will definitely win. Do note that these are both VERY extremely low benefit investments, I mean, 6 points for 7.4% damage or 7 points for 5.4% damage, 3/5 points of static damage and a few hp? It might be worth using those to get riding or shields or something instead (or it might not, depends on you!)

So yeah, rule of the thumb is, if you have 0 wm, it probably isn't worth it to raise strength just for a level of PS. If you have more extra points, getting an extra level of IF too probably makes it easily worth it though.

Oh yeah, and WaltF4 could be more or less wrong too, which would make my assumption that WM is pretty crap usually false.
EDIT: Also, yes, faster swings is more dps if you're whacking a dummy, but against a player you have to judge if faster swings scores you more hits or if it's worth it to just get more damage so those hits you DO get through hurt more. Regardless of that what also matters is how big the swings actually are, because if you kill someone with two hits anyway, getting +50% damage is pretty worthless as it'll STILL take two hits. That's pretty stupid assumption too due to speed bonuses and varying armor/IF levels anyway though.

Swing speeds don't vary that much anyway between most of the interesting cases, ie 111 wpf vs whatever you can get with WM compared to other options.
Title: Re: Weapon master
Post by: Phazey on June 08, 2012, 05:14:27 pm
I find it very interesting that Elmokki has a well reasoned out way of deciding on how much WPF / WM you should take... but it only seems to look at the damage you deal.
For me, the deciding factor in choosing WM5 or WM6 is not the extra damage, but the extra swing speed.

That said, he is probably right. The consensus seems to be that weapon mastery is worth it up to WM3, but after that... meh.
Title: Re: Weapon master
Post by: oprah_winfrey on June 08, 2012, 05:32:08 pm
the first 3-4 WM is most important to me, so that I can actually wear armor instead of going in rags to avoid the wpf penalty.

for a 2h build i would rather be 21/18 or 18/21 with IF and the ability to wear medium armor then be 21/21 and wear a gambeson.
Title: Re: Weapon master
Post by: Elmokki on June 08, 2012, 05:32:47 pm
I find it very interesting that Elmokki has a well reasoned out way of deciding on how much WPF / WM you should take... but it looks only at damage.

For me, the deciding factor in choosing WM5 or WM6 is not the extra damage, but the extra swing speed.

Well, I edited the above post multiple times, but anyway.

The main comparison is between using skillpoints to both increase strength and ps and using skillpoints purely for WM. That's because one point of WM is neglible compared to one point of power strike. Judging purely by damage is stupid, since strength gives you some hp by itself, and if you happen to have spare skillpoints, it'll also let you take more IF for even more HP. Weapon master's swing speed benefit isn't something that's easy to quantify. In World of Warcraft etc damage output is purely about statistics, but here the matter isn't how much damage you can dish out to a training dummy - people can block.

The swing speed difference on reasonably fast weapons is fairly small between 111 wpf and 160ish wpf, but if it helps the player to score even like 2% more hits in, it makes WM a superior stat to PS hands down in situations where a player has to convert skillpoints to strength to get PS versus using most of those points in WM because they already have fairly high agility.

The main question I see here is wether people should get their maximum possible amount of WM or just convert those to strength and PS when possible. The answer is simple. If you don't have absurdly low PS to begin with and don't use your extra strength for anything except that one point of PS, wm is probably better if you can get 5+ of it instead.

So basically what my math says is:

21/21 level 30 build with 7 ath, 7 ps and 3 wm is definitely a viable build, but 18/21 with 7 ath, 6 ps, 7 wm, 3 if is probably better if 7 athletics is a must. You'll do very slightly less damage, but will have more hp and slightly faster swings. 21/18 is considerably (well, under 10% difference) better in terms of damage though.

PS is hands down a better stat than WM, but if you need to spend 7 skillpoints for one PS and could spend 5+ in WM instead, WM is the way to go.
Title: Re: Weapon master
Post by: MrShine on June 08, 2012, 05:48:14 pm
Let's take a 21/15 build with 5 WM and 7 PS and compare it to a 24/15 build with 0 WM and 8 PS.

(used the cRPG calculator)

21/15 has 148 wpf
24/15 has 114 wpf

Wearing 15 weight in armor (medium) against a target with 40 body armor (medium/light)
Using a 30c weapon...
The 21/15 averages 22 damage.
The 24/15 averages 22.5 damage.

Wearing 15 weight in armor (medium) against a target with 40 body armor (medium/light)
Using a 40c weapon...
The 21/15 averages 33.5 damage.
The 24/15 averages 34.5 damage.

Wearing 15 weight in armor (medium) against a target with 40 body armor (medium/light)
Using a 30p weapon...
The 21/15 averages 30 damage.
The 24/15 averages 30.5 damage.



Just a basic example, but even with a 5 WM difference between the two builds the 1 extra PS still does (just barely) more damage than the 7 PS 5 WM build.  The 30-something wpf that is gained from the 21/15 build almost keeps up with 1 PS, but not quite.  It does however swing slightly quicker, but not by very much. 

Personally in this specific situation I would take the 21/15 1h/shield build over the 24/15 for a level 30, because I value the extra 1 HP & very minor speed increase gained over the very minor damage decrease.  But we're also talking about a drastic 5 WM difference between the two builds. 

On the whole I'm mostly in agreement with Rusty:  WM is mandatory for hybrids & ranged builds, but for almost everything else going 0 WM is perfectly viable and oftentimes probably a better decision for your build.  The one exception is if you are thinking about giving up a LOT of WM for an increase in 1 PS, because it may not always be worth it in those cases since your damage may be comparable by stacking the WM instead.


E: looks like I pretty much echoed what Elmokki was trying to say.
Title: Re: Weapon master
Post by: Uumdi on June 08, 2012, 05:53:38 pm
Go all or nothin'.  Personal experience, I like getting it with agility builds, because you stack enough wpf to actually make a difference, since the bonus increases with each rank.  If you pump only 2 or 3, you're only getting a few points on top of your cap, like 10 or 12.

On a 27/12, or 24/15 str build though, I wouldn't bother.  Stack ironflesh like a puutie and win the game - and you'll have a couple points for shield if you need.