cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Garem on June 06, 2012, 05:05:35 am
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I really don't understand this change. I understand the need to reduce the amount of gold in cRPG right now. It's automatically created fake gold. It's hard to control an economy when all you do is print money, after all (see: WWII Germany).
That being said, whenever you tax markets you chill them. So, if you buy and sell items on the cRPG market (just gold, of course; we don't tax heirlooms because, uhm, ?) your first 5% is lost.
Then, not accounting for profits, there's another 5% tax as soon as you sell the thing. You get a sum total tax of 9.5%.
That's a pretty substantial tax, especially since unlike real-life taxes, we don't get things like roads and police from it! It's a totally arbitrary tax providing no benefit that makes being a trader harder.
So why should being a trader be made harder? Don't we WANT to promote trade and make it easier for people to exchange goods? The overriding reason for taxes in the real world (again, police, roads, etc.) don't exist in the cRPG market.
But we still need to reduce the gold in the game!
Okay, totally. So increase repair costs across the board.
Or provide more of these cool new features that have been added recently, like titles and such. Or maybe make some of the things that have been automatically granted have a fee now- retirement and getting an heirloom costs 10% of the Base item's cost.
Or just stop worrying about people having a lot of money piled up. Who cares? There are plenty of good things for people to buy, so let them spend what they've got. Or horde it and let it waste away. What does it matter?
I digress. Arbitrary market taxes hinders transactions and chills the market, making it harder for traders to do business and make money. When traders have a harder time, it's harder for everyone to get their hands on the items they want to enjoy the game. There are better ways to eat gold that don't detract from the game at the same time.
Thoughts?
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I believe the theory is, that the people who are fabulously rich, are getting that way by manipulating the market, and because they are fabulously rich, they are not subject to the intention of upkeep etc, resulting in a large number of people being 'overly equipped' at all times.
Thus, if you tax the market, you hit them as they use it over and over, you take money out of economy as intended, and you create balance.
Not saying thats how it works out, but i believe that's the intention and theory.
I dunno, maybe statistics say otherwise, but every game I've been in, when the devs start taxing the market, they do it with good intentions towards market control, but it only creates a shit storm, as the results are multiple, not black&white, as they intended, or thought they would be.
In other words theyre doing it because they hate you. lol
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i think tax is bad solution, it affects everyone, not only the market moguls, its true that market moguls use marketplace more often then poor people, so generally they will loose more money on taxes, but still, it doesnt really do much, they just sell their items for higher price claiming that they need to do so cause of the tax, so they are still getting richer and richer.
now, if that money collected from taxes would to be used for something, like some kind of funding for new players in terms of giving them free gold if they meet some kind of requirement for it, or giving them certain loans, that would be other story
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Gold sink to attempt making the rich people get poorer which actually just ends up making the rich richer and the poor poorer, like every single patch they've done in the past 6 months or so.
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I hope that they don't hate me. That point aside, I think you're both totally right.
The change doesn't have much effect on the super wealthy. But let's look at both sides:
1. Say it HURTS the wealthy to have a tax. Why should they be taxed more? In the real world, there are plenty of arguments for this (mostly boiling down to wealth-distribution across society). That doesn't exist here. Nobody starves because someone else feasts in cRPG.
2. Say it HELPS the wealthy. I think this is closer to accurate. It pushes out the small-market players but with more lavish reserves, the wealthy get a tighter grip on an already small market. Small markets are FAR more easily manipulated and subject to wild variations. Predictable markets are a sign of a healthy economy. This is why you can't (and don't need to) barter at an American Walgreens, but if you're paying the asking prices in Cairo markets you're a moron.
More importantly, this is a game. It's supposed to be fun. The harder it is to get into the market, to wield it effectively and efficiently, the less fun it is.
Sidebar: More market information, such as what we've been provided recently, are very good additions. Keep them coming!
Gazda, that sounds more complicated than I think it needs to be. Making quick money as a new player isn't too hard, and cheapening the challenge of gaining game resources by giving out free gold has a sort of opposite effect than what we want- decreasing the sum of gold held by all players.
You're totally right about inflation though. Taxes just inflate the cost of goods.
I don't like when people complain without clear solutions to their complaints. So here's my recommendations, step by step:
Okay, so what's my big plan to get the same result without this TURRRRRIBLE implementation?
First, remove the tax.
Second, create persistent gold sink barriers, market and non-market related. Example? Limit players to 2 sales and 1 auction, with "buyable" slots with exponentially increasing cost.
-- Side note: They've been doing fantastic things with this recently- retrain, titles, blacksmith, so forth. These are great ways to reduce gold. What about more mini-games, like the lottery?
---- Example minigame: Fantasy Soldiers - Think Fantasy Football/Baseball/etc. but you pick ten players and some formula (just K/D ratios?) determines who gets the most points. Winners names are recorded, but prizes are nominal or non-existent.
---- Example minigame: Poker, gambling games; there are plenty of flash scripts out there.
Third, synchronize Strat and cRPG gold. Saaay WHAAAT? Dead serious. You want people to start spending gold, give them something substantial with it, like armies and equipment. THEN you'll see one hell of a competitive market. Gold will mean a whole lot more. Although the super wealthy would gain a big boost, it's not like it will last forever. Plus, this is ALREADY happening. Might as well make the process open and easy.
So, there you have it. Creative gold sinks trumps arbitrary taxes.
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Yup yup yup
^
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The tax can't really discourage market transactions, since the market is the only place you can spend your gold (outside of playing cav or with full plate).
As long as the taxes are removing gold faster than it is being produced, any inflation caused by the taxes are temporary. In the long term, people will have to price their sales lower - eventually there won't be enough gold left to purchase them at their current prices.
The really cool thing about this, is that the rate at which money is lost to taxation is directly proportional to market prices. As prices fall, the rate at which money is being lost to taxation will eventually equal the rate at which money is being created. This creates a nice feedback loop. If prices rise above the break-even point, then the total amount of gold in circulation will drop, eventually forcing people to price their items cheaper. If prices fall below that point, then the amount of gold in circulation will increase, and eventually prices will increase accordingly.
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Garem you should make this it's own post in suggestions.
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The tax helps counter the inevitable inflation of prices on the market. The official lottery also helps with this.
Without those two things, the only real gold sink is players wearing gear more expensive than the break-even point for upkeep.
The tax can't really discourage market transactions, since the market is the only place you can spend your gold (outside of playing cav or with full plate).
As long as the taxes are removing gold faster than it is being produced, any inflation caused by the taxes are temporary. In the long term, people will have to price their sales lower - eventually there won't be enough gold left to purchase them at their current prices.
This assumes a lot of things that may make economic sense, but make no practical sense in light of the irrepressible human element.
For example, the price of heirlooms should have dropped significantly when people could pay to recycle old looms. Why didn't it?
It's too complicated a question to have a simple answer, but the primary reason is that markets react not upon actual facts but upon expectations and actual information. Just because the data is there, or even that it's been read, doesn't mean the outcome is going to be premised upon it.
Also, heirlooms don't disappear (unless a player quits the game). So the quantity of the good rises constantly. So the supply rises, but the demand is insatiable since people will always want more and more. Inflation will keep happening for this reason as well, until heirloom singularity when everyone has pretty much every heirloom they could want. Realistically, that won't happen.
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So the quantity of the good rises constantly. So the supply rises, but the demand is insatiable since people will always want more and more. Inflation will keep happening for this reason as well
An increase in the number of heirlooms available on the market, in addition to an eventual decrease in the amount of gold available for purchasing those items can only really lead to three situations in the long term:
1) People price their items cheaper, because literally nobody will be left who can pay the prices we see now.
2) People stop offering heirlooms for gold, sticking purely to bartering for other heirlooms.
3) People stop selling heirlooms. This isn't likely to happen.
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Make Garem in charge of c-rpg economy please he seems to have taken at least one economy class
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The only way to control prices is to sell heirloom points themselves directly from the shop for x amount.... then no-one in there right mind will pay more than 3*x for a +3 item. Otherwise it will always be a case of supply and demand :P
Meaning people will pay anything including taxes for what they want.
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I work hard sucking dicks for my money. Let me spend it how I please.
Gomer for cRPG President
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I work hard sucking dicks for my money. Let me spend it how I please.
Gomer for cRPG President
Might be a little off topic, but it's necessary.
@ Gomer
Claiming to be a troll, and intending to be a troll is a pointless act, for it's the best trolls that never admit to "trolling" persay. Secondly, your trolls lack creativity, thus, are just a chore to read, and lack all humour.
inb4 umad
inb4 trollsuccess.jpg
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The only way to control prices is to sell heirloom points themselves directly from the shop for x amount.... then no-one in there right mind will pay more than 3*x for a +3 item. Otherwise it will always be a case of supply and demand :P
Meaning people will pay anything including taxes for what they want.
hehe
heirlooms should be player-only though imo. :P
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The marketplace transaction tax only affects in a non-negligible way people that do several market transaction per day. The same people that have more than a few millions of disponible gold/heirloom value for trading and make more gold through trading. Taking gold from those people is a lot better than taking gold from everybody.
Besides, the tax is only scaling with the amount of gold in the transaction. Heirloom vs heirloom trades are still free (save the offer listing fee of course)
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Lower the taxes! 1% or 2% max.
5% is harsh when selling looms priced very high....harsh on the poor people (like me).
If the problem is that ultra-rich player are manipulating the market...
Tax the rich, spare the poor!
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Is this the topic where we whine cause we ALL have to pay a tax (which scales correspondingly to the item amount) now? Yeah this will certainly 'chill' the market...I'll take my looms/loompoints and go sell them in another game!
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I don't know if anyone else has noticed this- but direct heirloom sales for gold only are virtually non-existent anymore.
Call me crazy, call me prophetic, or simply admit that there's a reason for this happening. People aren't trading gold anymore because getting taxed 75,000 gold to buy a 1.5 million gold item isn't worth it when you can trade shitty heirlooms around instead with gold on top.
The problem is, this doesn't do the people who don't have spare masterworks laying around any good. I have a swathe of them at my disposal and it's STILL hard to trade items quickly and easily.
To make matters worse, now the Clan Bank is getting taxed too. So no matter what, it costs a large sum of gold to move around any pile of gold worth moving.
Please, reconsider the reasons for having a tax at all. It's a hollow gold sink. The market is a very fun aspect of the game, but it's enormously frustrating and becoming slower and more limited every day. Nobody benefits from this tax- and this is a game, after all. We have the real world to worry about taxes in.
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Agreed! Heirlooms are barely selling these days, even for ridiculous sums (1.2m for good masterworks).
Perhaps for a gold sink, increase repair fees across the board on heavy armour and high-end weapons. Maybe add in armour recolouring or something similar. Vanity items!
Just stop taxing the market!
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Does anyone know if the gold sink actually changed prices on the marketplace, or is it rather the time that changes loompoint and loom prices (meaning the longer people wait to sell their items they go down with the prices and by time loompoints are costing less)?
However to be honest, gold is not worth a lot. Depending on your team and the time to play you have, you easily earn a good amount of gold (and depending on gear of course).
50 gold per minute, 250 gold at max per minute (less with upkeep).
Actually no one really needs gold, only for upkeep. Looms aren't needed after all. :p
(though everyone wants them)
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I personally think the market tax is a little too high, at least when it comes to trades with a lot of money involved.
I'd rather see a fixed 1k listing fee for creating an offer, an additional ~5k when the offer is accepted and only 0.5% - 1% of the traded gold being taxed. Of course this should apply only to trades with heirloom points or heirloomed items, others remaining tax-free (except maybe a smaller listing fee).
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I don't know if anyone else has noticed this- but direct heirloom sales for gold only are virtually non-existent anymore.
Call me crazy, call me prophetic, or simply admit that there's a reason for this happening. People aren't trading gold anymore because getting taxed 75,000 gold to buy a 1.5 million gold item isn't worth it when you can trade shitty heirlooms around instead with gold on top.
The problem is, this doesn't do the people who don't have spare masterworks laying around any good. I have a swathe of them at my disposal and it's STILL hard to trade items quickly and easily.
To make matters worse, now the Clan Bank is getting taxed too. So no matter what, it costs a large sum of gold to move around any pile of gold worth moving.
Please, reconsider the reasons for having a tax at all. It's a hollow gold sink. The market is a very fun aspect of the game, but it's enormously frustrating and becoming slower and more limited every day. Nobody benefits from this tax- and this is a game, after all. We have the real world to worry about taxes in.
Also, I think if you are able to give money or trade that money to clan-mates through the clan bank, it shouldn't be taxed...although I suppose that could be abused by someone just creating a new clan.
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I think its fine the way it is.
People who use extreme upkeep gear use the market to make it work by trading stuff to retards who pay 50k or 100k to try out a new set of +3 gloves fx.
I think they should increase the tax even more so that people wouldn't be able afford wearing their heavy armor an +3 poleaxe along with their +3 heavy lance an destrider / war horse..
Also increasing upkeep?? are you completely whacked in the head :?: you do know that cRPG still have new players without huge sums of gold to make a crasy gold buffer ect ect ect...
If anything chadz should make it so that you cant make gold while exchanging items with one another.. that would work alot better then everything else
:EDIT why do we even have upkeep anyways? only way to make upkeep work would be a full reset of everyone's gold
Upkeep only works if your a new player.
Also what happened to all the gold people had hoarded from using the no upkeep bug?
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Does anyone know if the gold sink actually changed prices on the marketplace, or is it rather the time that changes loompoint and loom prices (meaning the longer people wait to sell their items they go down with the prices and by time loompoints are costing less)?
However to be honest, gold is not worth a lot. Depending on your team and the time to play you have, you easily earn a good amount of gold (and depending on gear of course).
50 gold per minute, 250 gold at max per minute (less with upkeep).
Actually no one really needs gold, only for upkeep. Looms aren't needed after all. :p
(though everyone wants them)
Although I cannot answer with specificity, I can say that from my close amateur observations since late 2011 to today, yes, prices changed, but there are a variety of factors that all came into play at once so it's hard to pinpoint what input caused what output.
What I CAN say, somewhat to your point, is the following formula:
A 1.5 million gold deal is taxed 75,000.
The average multi in game is a 1.8, or so I've heard. Let's just round that up to 2.
That means people make 100 gold per in game round in-play minute. You don't get 60 minutes in an hour, closer to 45-50, but let's pretend we do for now.
60 minutes x 2 multi x 50 gold = 6000 gold an hour revenue
75000 / 6000 = 12.5 hours of play
You would have to play unarmed and naked for half a day to produce just enough to pay the tax on a MW deal with the most favorable numbers I can give. Start deducting 25% from the fact that ticks are by game minute, and decrease for even modest upkeep and you see the problem... nobody produces that much unless they're a naked stick-wielding wonderman... or a banner-leecher extraordinaire, which are legion.