cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: KaffeKalle on June 01, 2012, 01:37:26 pm

Title: Bannerbalance
Post by: KaffeKalle on June 01, 2012, 01:37:26 pm
I understand that clans would prefer to play together and everything, but Im starting to get rather fed up with siege when one of the big clans are on, and I get game after game after game of unexcitement and uneveness, goldloss and low xp-gains.

Wouldnt it be possible to make a system that detects if there is just one huge stack, and have it split that stack in two to even the teams and have the games become more even and entertaining for everyone? Not like all those onesided victories could be very entertaining either.

Edit: if this could be moved to suggestions I guess that would be good!
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: rustyspoon on June 01, 2012, 01:41:42 pm
Quote from: KaffeKalle on June 01, 2012, 01:37:26 pm
I understand that clans would prefer to play together and everything, but Im starting to get rather fed up with siege when one of the big clans are on, and I get game after game after game of unexcitement and uneveness, goldloss and low xp-gains.

Wouldnt it be possible to make a system that detects if there is just one huge stack, and have it split that stack in two to even the teams and have the games become more even and entertaining for everyone? Not like all those onesided victories could be very entertaining either.

Edit: if this could be moved to suggestions I guess that would be good!

It's sad, but a lot of clans do things like that just so they can roll a server for hours. Not a fan of banner balance myself, but good luck getting it changed.
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: Teeth on June 01, 2012, 02:06:01 pm
Join a clan, it makes playing any game so much better.
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: BlueKnight on June 01, 2012, 02:12:38 pm
I think if a group of organised people is playing in a clan and they want to be together then they should be in 1 team. They are clan! This is the point. If your clan owns, you have the right to be with clanmates always. It would have no sense if a clan was getting separated because they are good. They are clan because they want to win together. If they own, they have the right to win unless another good clan or just a good group of randoms beat them.
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: Gimest on June 01, 2012, 03:48:05 pm
Problem with siege is, theres normally 2-3 bigger clans playing, and mostly get all to same side and randomers/smaller clans in the other.
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: KaffeKalle on June 01, 2012, 04:29:55 pm
Quote from: BlueKnight on June 01, 2012, 02:12:38 pm
I think if a group of organised people is playing in a clan and they want to be together then they should be in 1 team. They are clan! This is the point. If your clan owns, you have the right to be with clanmates always. It would have no sense if a clan was getting separated because they are good. They are clan because they want to win together. If they own, they have the right to win unless another good clan or just a good group of randoms beat them.

If they want to play clangames with their clan they can face off against other clans. Not farm money and xp in siege which is more or less free for all.
I just want a fair game where I dont get hopeless odds stacked against me all the time, one would think that having fair and fun games would be more important than constantly playing with your clanbuddies and stacking against a bunch of randoms and winning 95% of the games. Cutting the one big stack in half and evening it out between teams would still let the clanplayers play together with alot of their friends while being more entertaining for the 40 randoms who would otherwise just be playing in a losing team against an almighty organised stack.
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: Kafein on June 01, 2012, 04:41:54 pm
Clanstacking is a great thing as long as the matches remain balanced. You can have both.
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: Scrambles720 on June 01, 2012, 04:49:24 pm
If you cant beat em, join em. Now stop whining you little baby.
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: KaffeKalle on June 01, 2012, 05:14:41 pm
I dont have anything against clanstacking, but it doesnt promote fun games when there is just one clan around.

And "If you cant beat them join them" is a fucking retarded concept.
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: Phazey on June 01, 2012, 05:19:33 pm
Maybe devs can analyze win / loss ratios and tweak the banner- and autobalance systems a bit to make it harder to steamroll a server?

I remember EU1 going 30 vs 45+ when we had a group of Mercs. If one team is doing too good -> just move more players to the other team.
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: KaffeKalle on June 01, 2012, 05:44:07 pm
While that would probably work to some extent, I'd personally prefer a straight split of a stack.

I feel I should clarify that Id only want this done when there is just the one big stack online, if there are 5 greys in at the same time as 10 hre I do not see the need for such balancing as long as they arent in the same team.
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: Phazey on June 01, 2012, 05:49:26 pm
Well, if a fair balance can't be achieved, a straight 50-50 split for the biggest bannergroup would be good.

But allowing people to be on the same team should have priority. Even if it means causing odd team counts like 30 vs 45.

I mean, the whole point of the banner balance system is to allow people to play together on the same team. If using the same banner would mean you'd get split into two groups all the time, the system isn't working.

Right now, i think one team can only have a maximum of 50% people using the same banner. So it all depends on how many people are using that one banner.
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: Renay on June 01, 2012, 06:03:41 pm
Get better at the game and stop complaining, bitches!
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: KaffeKalle on June 01, 2012, 06:12:19 pm
Quote from: Phazey on June 01, 2012, 05:49:26 pm
Well, if a fair balance can't be achieved, a straight 50-50 split for the biggest bannergroup would be good.

But allowing people to be on the same team should have priority. Even if it means causing odd team counts like 30 vs 45.

I mean, the whole point of the banner balance system is to allow people to play together on the same team. If using the same banner would mean you'd get split into two groups all the time, the system isn't working.

Right now, i think one team can only have a maximum of 50% people using the same banner. So it all depends on how many people are using that one banner.

Well, naturally, but siege and battle work quite differently in terms of balance. Im not sure an uneven number would work in siege, might be hard for the stackers that way. But I dont have a perfect solution, I just think that balancing the way its handled now is problematic and personally, if I was in one of the big clans I would prefer being split up and have fun even games, over having constant x5 and easymode.

Renay, how eloquent and constructive of you...
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: Kafein on June 01, 2012, 06:23:51 pm
At the moment if a banner has really too many people it will fuck up the balance. But that's not a fatality. All teams can be balanced, resulting in uneven player counts if needed, while keeping the clans together as much as possible.

That is, if a clan is doing good, just remove a few randomers from that team and put them in the other team.
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: Joker86 on June 01, 2012, 06:43:54 pm
Quote from: BlueKnight on June 01, 2012, 02:12:38 pm
(click to show/hide)

Great way to reduce random players to bots for the enjoyment of clan players. Your whole argumentation bases on what clan players want. But what about what random players want?

I think people can't be forced to join a clan, some people (like me) just don't like it, and I know what I am takling about, I even used to lead a clan myself and were high officer in a few others (other games, though), and really I am both sick and tried of it. I just want to randomly join a server, see what's up, join my team in what plan they are follwing (if any), try to either achieve a positive K/D or help my teammates in doing so, and end up the day with a little bit more money and XP, because next to clever teamplay leading to won rounds I enjoy the grind to a certain degree. Getting a new level or buying some new piece of equipment still motivates me a bit.

That said I don't want to join a server and get steamrolled repeatedly for the entire evening because some other guys want to play together. And I have to suffer from it, or what?

No, fair teams > banner balance, not the other way round. And never mind how good you are, banner balance can still fuck you in the ass... with a cactus...

The only problem I see with a good working banner balance is the average multiplier (which should be 1.5, in theory) which would have bad effects on our upkeep and the equipment we could sustain. So something needs to be done about the multiplier system, but if I remember correctly I already read that chadz plans to change it somehow.

So don't be asshats, other players have a right for fun, too. The joy of all players is definitely more important than the joy of a few players. So fuck you, clan players. Clans are for clanwars, if you join a random public server play a random public game. I guess you don't want professional soccer or basketball players joining you on the court in the city park, where you just want to hang out with you buddies and play a relaxed game, and suddenly you are forced to play against a team which does it on a professional level and turns the game into serious business. That would not be an enjoyable afternoon, would it? Would it be right of the professional players to demand that you become as professional as them, quit school and train eight hours a day to become as good as them, just to be allowed to enjoy the game ("Stop whing and get better at the game")? I guess not.

So change banner balance to work properly and change multiplier system to something that works with a good banner balance.

P.S.: I still understand the point of view of clan players, that's why I think [full clan stack + uneven teams] > [divided clan stack + fair teams]. To a crtain degree, of course.
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: Overdriven on June 01, 2012, 06:46:40 pm
There are servers which don't have banner balance. If it was such an issue they'd be more populated...
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: Turboflex on June 01, 2012, 06:49:10 pm
never before seen a guy argue seriously that teamwork = bad
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: sF_Guardian on June 01, 2012, 06:51:30 pm
TEAMWORK IS OP, NERF TEAMWORK!

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: Joker86 on June 01, 2012, 06:54:10 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on June 01, 2012, 06:46:40 pm
There are servers which don't have banner balance. If it was such an issue they'd be more populated...

That's a bad reasoning. There are many more factors in choosing the server than banner balance. And even if I didn't want banner balance, if there are more players on the server with banner balance I will sigh and connect.


Quote from: Turboflex on June 01, 2012, 06:49:10 pm
never before seen a guy argue seriously that teamwork = bad

Quote from: sF_Guardian on June 01, 2012, 06:51:30 pm
TEAMWORK IS OP, NERF TEAMWORK!

(click to show/hide)

If anything, I am a big supporter of teamwork. And usually, at least on EU1, it's not the teamwork which wins the rounds, it's the concentration of the most skilled fighters on one side which wins the round. Usually they run off like headless chicken exactly as the average cRPG lemming, but in difference to latter they often survive it and kill like ten enemies per round, and with a few of them your team has won.
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: Overdriven on June 01, 2012, 06:58:10 pm
Quote from: Joker86 on June 01, 2012, 06:54:10 pm
That's a bad reasoning. There are many more factors in choosing the server than banner balance. And even if I didn't want banner balance, if there are more players on the server with banner balance I will sigh and connect.

Why? I play EU4 all the time as it's often quite populated. Have a lot of fun on there. The server is there...it's not our problem if you don't use it. Likewise with siege as well.
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: Phazey on June 01, 2012, 07:04:12 pm
Joker is a big supporter of using team play and tactics. I can vouch for that. He just wants randomers to organize and play proper tactics more. Which is commendable.

However, his anger towards clans is misdirected, i think. No point in blaming people for trying to organize themselves. It's inevitable.

When it comes to the power of individual skill versus the power of good tactics, i think both are a big factor and they aren't mutually exclusive. Often, when a server is getting 'steamrolled', many things play a factor. Not just the individual skill of the dominant clan or the tactics the winning team is using, but also the de-motivational effect on the losing team (people spawning later, people leaving the 'losing team') and the lack of tactics on the losing team.

I would advocate a system which looks at how long an x5 has been active (how long 1 team has been on a winning steak) and slowly increase the player count on the losing team. I'd rather fight very bad odds (up to 30 vs 60) then be split up.
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: Turboflex on June 01, 2012, 07:14:45 pm
Said it before but autobalance in general is decent for the most part,  even counting clans, the big problem though is it doesn't balance cav evenly.  When you see a steamroll happening, count up how many lancer/1h cav one side has and how many the other has, that is usually the source of the steamroll. Cav is so easy mode OP right now and is not balanced anymore by extra gear cost of horses.
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: Joker86 on June 01, 2012, 07:21:25 pm
Quote from: Phazey on June 01, 2012, 07:04:12 pm
However, his anger towards clans is misdirected, i think. No point in blaming people for trying to organize themselves. It's inevitable.

When it comes to the power of individual skill versus the power of good tactics, i think both are a big factor and they aren't mutually exclusive. Often, when a server is getting 'steamrolled', many things play a factor. Not just the individual skill of the dominant clan or the tactics the winning team is using, but also the de-motivational effect on the losing team (people spawning later, people leaving the 'losing team') and the lack of tactics on the losing team.

Actually I don't rage against clans, I just flamed them a bit because of the "Fuck you, pubs! Because you don't organize yourself in clans you deserved to lose. If we are constantly running on x5, the game is just perfect... what? Empathy? For whom?"-attitude.

I admit if the random players would tend to play more with tactics, clan stacks wouldn't be so much of a problem, at least for some time. But even if the average tactical skills on the servers would grow (something I'd LOVE to see), clan players would adapt, start using tactics, too, and we would end up where we have been some time ago. It's just the fact that personal skill still matters a lot in this game, if not, most. It's not the tactic, that makes clans win, it's simply their superior skills.

Yes, some of them, like Byzantinum, tend to stick together, but that doesn't make it a tactic. Usually, when the team decides to do a special thing like "attack left" or "defend ruins", and you have the rare case that most of the team actually listens, the Byzantinum assholes (  :mrgreen: ) usually do the opposite ("attack right" "charge") for the extra thrill, honour, challenge, whatever, resulting in the rest of the team being slaughtered, Byzantinum being slaughtered almost, but with a few decisive kills at the end of the round they manage to win it. They don't even try to play with the "stinky pub peasants". The only reason why they win is their skills in combination with the most basic tactic of sticking together, which shouldn't count as tactic at all.

Seriously, you can't accuse public players of not using tactics, when clans don't do it themselves! It's the wrong reason why clan stacks win maps! I haven't seen a clan "lead" their team more than a couple of times, they don't care at all.

So stop telling me I would complain about OP teamwork. I complain about OP nolifers who can block and feint and spam and chamber the shit out of everyone, grouping up to collaboratively block and feint and spam and chamber the shit out of the random pubs, and then telling them it's their own fault and that they want to play together, so who cares what the randoms think.
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: CarlSagan on June 01, 2012, 07:41:19 pm
I feel like the main problem is the XP system. Right now it's obviously team based so when a clan is owning a server and winning every round many good competitive players get stuck on the derp squad and have 1x all night. We need a system that rewards players for playing the game correctly. If you are a defender (on siege obviously) there could be extra XP if you are defending the flag or kill an enemy near the flag, close the gate, KILL ASSIST (this game has always needed that, if you do some percentage of the damage and help your teammate kill someone you should get rewarded as well, not just the killing blow) or if you are attacking for opening gates/taking flag/etc. Also, there should be bonuses for kill streaks/ending someones kill streak. Not that Battlefield is the best game ever or anything, but their XP system seems to reward people for playing the game in a variety of ways. You can be a sniper and just get points for killin people, or you can be a medic and get points for healing people. We should reward people for their various classes and play styles as long as they do it in a way that tries to help their team win, even if a clan is winning every round. I think it would be interesting to have more stats available at the end of rounds such as DMG, assists, dmg taken, doors/gates closed, clutch kills (at flag/gate or end of round for battle), blows (how many times your weapon struck an enemy), kill streak,  etc. Battle's valor system at least tries to do this but I feel like there should be many ways to reward players for doing well other than just being one of the last dudes alive because you're on a a damn horse or have so much agi you can run away from the entire enemy team.
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on June 01, 2012, 07:59:38 pm
If your playing the game to get gold and experience and not because you enjoy the game you shouldn't play the game. Just like people who are only concerned with getting good gear in WoW but dont actually enjoy the game should not play the game. And its usually not one clan rolling a server, normal its a one or more clans on one team vs one or more clans on the other. If your team is losing then playing is a challenge, and i don't know about you guys but i enjoy challenges much more than easy mode. But like i said i rarely ever see one side complelty dominate all game (On NA atleast) team balance works for hte most part.

And banner balance is the same as its always been, its just now you cant banner stack on the winning team, is that why your mad?
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: Elindor on June 01, 2012, 08:01:07 pm
+1 on Carl's point
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on June 01, 2012, 08:06:23 pm
Quote from: CarlSagan on June 01, 2012, 07:41:19 pm
I feel like the main problem is the XP system. Right now it's obviously team based so when a clan is owning a server and winning every round many good competitive players get stuck on the derp squad and have 1x all night. We need a system that rewards players for playing the game correctly. If you are a defender (on siege obviously) there could be extra XP if you are defending the flag or kill an enemy near the flag, close the gate, KILL ASSIST (this game has always needed that, if you do some percentage of the damage and help your teammate kill someone you should get rewarded as well, not just the killing blow) or if you are attacking for opening gates/taking flag/etc. Also, there should be bonuses for kill streaks/ending someones kill streak. Not that Battlefield is the best game ever or anything, but their XP system seems to reward people for playing the game in a variety of ways. You can be a sniper and just get points for killin people, or you can be a medic and get points for healing people. We should reward people for their various classes and play styles as long as they do it in a way that tries to help their team win, even if a clan is winning every round. I think it would be interesting to have more stats available at the end of rounds such as DMG, assists, dmg taken, doors/gates closed, clutch kills (at flag/gate or end of round for battle), blows (how many times your weapon struck an enemy), kill streak,  etc. Battle's valor system at least tries to do this but I feel like there should be many ways to reward players for doing well other than just being one of the last dudes alive because you're on a a damn horse or have so much agi you can run away from the entire enemy team.

The whole point of this current system is to get the players to work together as a team so tehy can win and get more multipliers. This system your describing is somewhat similar to the old system. If you were to adopt this system it would be massive kill whoring and selfish play, running over team mates, reckless team wounding/tkign in order to be the one to get the kill, no team work or "proper play" at all. There are good pugers and waht not balance the good players not in the rolling clan to the other team, oh wait it already does that, but it could do it better in moving over more players at a time.
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: BlueKnight on June 03, 2012, 03:09:03 am
In fact if the defending team was actually DEFENDING THE FLAG, capturing it would be hardly possible for any clan. Most of defenders are just running around not giving a fuck about flag and being unhappy they are losing. Same goes with capturing a flag and attackers who are afraid they will die when invading first wall.

If everybody wanted to win and played objective it would be much more enjoyable mode.

Lately I can see GTX on siege server just running around and trying to have the best KD and not giving a fuck about flag. GTX please stop spoiling the game for other players. You are getting balanced to one team because you have good KD but you don't help your team. You are slightly breaking balance :-(
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: Zaren on June 03, 2012, 03:12:42 am
Quote from: KaffeKalle on June 01, 2012, 01:37:26 pm
I understand that clans would prefer to play together and everything, but Im starting to get rather fed up with siege when one of the big clans are on, and I get game after game after game of unexcitement and uneveness, goldloss and low xp-gains.

Wouldnt it be possible to make a system that detects if there is just one huge stack, and have it split that stack in two to even the teams and have the games become more even and entertaining for everyone? Not like all those onesided victories could be very entertaining either.

Edit: if this could be moved to suggestions I guess that would be good!
im going to apply a good old piece of advise here....

if you cant kill them.... GET BETTER
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: BlueKnight on June 03, 2012, 03:37:45 am
(click to show/hide)

hahaha  :lol: Phyr and Cyber have recently said that feinting is dead and everybody can block and skill doesn't matter so much lol
Here I can hear that skilled guys rule and there that gangbang aka teamwork, not units rule, because game doesn't allow players to be too good.

I think you are right Joker that some units do damn good job but that's how they are rewarded, they keep winning. Also wanted to say that staying together is one of the best "tactics" and for me Phyr is unhappy because earlier he could pwn anybody like a boss and now he would have to feint a bit more because people learned the most basic skill which is blocking :P

                                                                          Phyrex
                                                                              ||
Here is the LOL-graph of skill gaining                    V

                                                               _____---------'''''''''''''''''' <- I can beat you with my eyes closed
                                                 __----''''''   <- Good guys
                                            _- '   <- future good guys
                                          /   <- average player
                                        /   <- experienced fresher
                                      /   <- fresher

Earlier everybody was a fresher or experienced fresher when Phyr was already above good guys. Now when Phyr is even better, the difference between other players' skill and Phyr's skill is still giant but smaller than before.

I hope you understand me and Phyr doesn't mind me talking about him all the damn time
Title: Re: Bannerbalance
Post by: KaffeKalle on June 03, 2012, 01:41:21 pm
Quote from: blacktiger28 on June 03, 2012, 03:12:42 am
im going to apply a good old piece of advise here....

if you cant kill them.... GET BETTER

I have no problems killing them, but alone against many one can only do so much. They are the russians to my german army.