cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Polobow on March 24, 2011, 06:21:14 pm
-
So, seen alot of threads about saying stuff isn't balanced ( 'This is UP!' 'leaving, my old friend & archer game')
Let's reverse the question. What do you think IS balanced? I just posted generals, if there's any specialty i forgot, comment about it.
-
game is balanced - whiners may suck my dick, then go grow some skill
-
1h, 2h and polearm all need item tweaks (side sword, barmace/iron mace, hafted blades/long maces). Crossbows, bows and cav are fine. Hybrids need some tweaking. Retirement/heirloom system needs an overhaul.
-
I voted cav is fine, but I think that's really due to map rotations. Cav can be so great some maps and so awful on others that I think that balanced them in my mind. I love watching good cav players, but I'd hate to be one tbh.
-
You can't ask "what is balanced?", as balance always needs two things you compare. It's like asking this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XegNtdRySnY&#t=29) :wink:
There is a basic effort/effect relation concerning balance. Things are balanced as long as the effort you put into your actions always has the according effect. Killing someone in meele for example is more difficult than killing someone over range. So your overall effectivity has to be balanced accordingly. This is why archers have less armour, got slower shot animations, throwing weapons have very limited projectiles per stack and so on.
Currently we have a higher effort/effect relation value concerning ranged weapons, which leads to the ranged spam we currently have. Of course there are always people of both sides claiming the class they play was balanced and the other was OP, and the other players would just have to get some skill, stop whining or give up weapons slots for special counters. I don't want to comment this.
All I say is: if we had submachine guns and repeating rifles in this mod, and the submachine guns were estimated as too powerful BY THE DEVELOPER, then he would have two options:
- nerf SMGs
- buff rifles
Depending on this decision either SMGs or rifles would be balanced. If the developer will change item balance in the next patch, and I assume he WILL, then this vote is totally depending on the developers decision what to buff and what to nerf. The whole matter is a question of definition.
-
Anything that is cut damage that you can't use with a shield is balanced. You balance it but wearing armor. Oh what a concept that is! Now other things like steel pick, Miltary pick, sidesword, Long Iron mace, and Bar Mace are a few I can think of that need tweaks but it's not many. Well and xbows espically heavy and sniper need WPF to be accurate but other than that people just need learn to block & wear some armor. If they are really bad or lazy they can 1h shield or pro shield with spear or alwpike.
-
When I first read the thread title, I thought it was like a pseudo-academic inquiry into the meaning of "balanced." What IS balanced, anyways?
Does it mean that players of equal skill using different weapons will always battle to a draw? How is it even possible to measure "equal skill?"
Or maybe if there were 2 teams of 25 players each, and they all had the same proportion of different weapon/playstyles...and they fought 100 battles...the will/loss ratio should be 50/50? This is also impossible to measure...how could we go about it?
Or maybe the weapons style that most players use is always assumed to be the more OP one. But what if certain play-styles just appeal to the masses more, and seem more "cool" than others and are more popular for that reason?
Or maybe "balanced" is just a socially constructed figment of our collective imaginations..and if we are killed repeatedly by a certain weapon, (or do poorly with a certain weapon) we will label it unbalanced...and if enough complaints surface, that label is then justified? But would this really be a scientific/objective method of determining balance...one based on opinion and perceived effectiveness...when combat in this game is influenced by so many factors??????
Anyways, I thought a discussion like that would be quite entertaining. :P
-
When I first read the thread title, I thought it was like a pseudo-academic inquiry into the meaning of "balanced." What IS balanced, anyways?
I did too. Yes it wouild have been entertaining. I made a post even though it was not of the nature I first thought it would be.
-
Actually taking into account lobbyists polluting the poll more people so far have said everything is balanced
Out of 23 response with the margin of error for people who will purposely not vote a weapon class as balanced still the most common response has been an all vote withholding "chadz" option as being balanced
Don't listen to lobbies or special interests truth is a true pro can suceed with any weapon type right now
Now if u are average keep playing or just whine on these forums
-
Don't listen to lobbies or special interests truth is a true pro can suceed with any weapon type right now
That doesn't mean it's balanced. It's reasonably balanced but there are still some tweaks needed. Just look at the current state of the barmace, perfect example of not balanced.
-
The game is reasonably balanced, pure builds need some buffing, at the moment it doesn't make much sense to go for a pure build, this leading to the massive amounts of ranged spam. Also there are some weapons that need nerfing (barmace, long iron mace, side sword, long hafted blade, long hafted spiked mace, huscarl shield etc) but overall the game is more balanced that it ever was.
Like someone said a while ago, the fact that people complain about pretty much everything being OP (check the game balance forum section) is a good indicator that the game is quite balanced.
-
The game is deffinatly more balanced that it ever has been before. I must agree as I have stated in other post that AGI needs some love. Also the purebuilds do. A few weapons nerfed but that is it. People that complain all day about OP stuff probably never played the game back last August - Nov and have no clue how far things have come.
-
you dont have throwing there which is the only thing i think is unbalanced
they hit with the power of a crossbow, but the player can release projectiles with the same speed as an archer
on top of that they can use a shield with it as well, which no other ranged class can do
-
nothing is really OP. Only range in masses is very annoying, but from the perspective of an archer (thrower I cant say) defenitely not to powerful.
-
When I first read the thread title, I thought it was like a pseudo-academic inquiry into the meaning of "balanced." What IS balanced, anyways?
Does it mean that players of equal skill using different weapons will always battle to a draw? How is it even possible to measure "equal skill?"
Or maybe if there were 2 teams of 25 players each, and they all had the same proportion of different weapon/playstyles...and they fought 100 battles...the will/loss ratio should be 50/50? This is also impossible to measure...how could we go about it?
Or maybe the weapons style that most players use is always assumed to be the more OP one. But what if certain play-styles just appeal to the masses more, and seem more "cool" than others and are more popular for that reason?
Or maybe "balanced" is just a socially constructed figment of our collective imaginations..and if we are killed repeatedly by a certain weapon, (or do poorly with a certain weapon) we will label it unbalanced...and if enough complaints surface, that label is then justified? But would this really be a scientific/objective method of determining balance...one based on opinion and perceived effectiveness...when combat in this game is influenced by so many factors??????
Anyways, I thought a discussion like that would be quite entertaining. :P
Actually, i'm fine with this. Discuss what 'balanced' exactly is, if you want :).
-
you dont have throwing there which is the only thing i think is unbalanced
they hit with the power of a crossbow, but the player can release projectiles with the same speed as an archer
on top of that they can use a shield with it as well, which no other ranged class can do
Hmm... you've touched upon a thrower's strengths but you've neglected to mention their weaknesses! They might throw as fast as an archer and with the strength of xbow, but they have less ammo than either, and less range and less accuracy. I'd say they're balanced. Crossbows are still a little too effective with 0 WPF, but that can be easily fixed.
-
you dont have throwing there which is the only thing i think is unbalanced
they hit with the power of a crossbow, but the player can release projectiles with the same speed as an archer
on top of that they can use a shield with it as well, which no other ranged class can do
Oh, crap, forgot. Vote 'others' then :/. Wish i could edit polls, but then i could influence it.
-
I wouldnt say anything is unbalanced, except for ironmace and perhaps sidesword.
Other than that a few polearms need to be tweaked and the 2h stab is complete bullshit.
-
Hmm... you've touched upon a thrower's strengths but you've neglected to mention their weaknesses! They might throw as fast as an archer and with the strength of xbow, but they have less ammo than either, and less range and less accuracy. I'd say they're balanced. Crossbows are still a little too effective with 0 WPF, but that can be easily fixed.
Well it wouldnt hurt to put it up to a vote. Why is throwing missing so I can not tick it's box? Oh you forgot -.- oh wells then.
-
1h, 2h and polearm all need item tweaks (side sword, barmace/iron mace, hafted blades/long maces). Crossbows, bows and cav are fine. Hybrids need some tweaking. Retirement/heirloom system needs an overhaul.
i bet ur an archer of some sort
-
i bet ur an archer of some sort
You can see that easily from his archery video in his signature.
-
I wouldnt say anything is unbalanced, except for ironmace and perhaps sidesword.
Other than that a few polearms need to be tweaked and the 2h stab is complete bullshit.
+1
-
i bet ur an archer of some sort
Technically yes, since one of my many alts is an archer.
-
whatislovebabydonthurtmedonthurtmenomore
balance discussions make me dizzy and tend to cause multiple butt wounds in one go as moving immobile cement walls try to pass through one another
-
Technically yes, since one of my many alts is an archer.
I dont think we would get on this relationship is over
-
Well it wouldnt hurt to put it up to a vote. Why is throwing missing so I can not tick it's box? Oh you forgot -.- oh wells then.
If i could just add options to a poll :/
-
What IS Balanced? well... in that regard, what is BALANCED is that which has thing which has both its positive and negative traits balanced, so as not to make it either too strong or two weak.
i would say that its impossible to define what IS balanced, unless we see what ISNT balanced... because what ISNT balanced unbalances the balanced things.
i would say, in general...
1h
Archery
are pefectly balanced as it is.
i would also say that...
polearms
shields
2h
are balanced well, but need improvement.
finally, i would say that
horses
throwing
crushthrough weapons
are grossly unbalanced, and are what tilts the balanced weapons to unbalanced.
hopefully i answered that right :)
-
whatislovebabydonthurtmedonthurtmenomore
balance discussions make me dizzy and tend to cause multiple butt wounds in one go as moving immobile cement walls try to pass through one another
^ this lol
-
1h balanced? LoL.
Don't make me laugh, seriously.
-
Barmace, Iron Mace, Great Maul, etc are all obviously unbalanced. Says so in the item description.
-
pure builds are balanced
sword and board > range > 2hander > Sword and board
Hybrids however are not balanced
Hybrid>Sword and board
Hybrid>range
Hybrid>2hander
Cav is fine, if your not aware of your surroundings a cav can kill you, if you refuse to carry a polearm cav will kill you.
Crushthrough could use some tweaks.
-
Hybrids however are not balanced
Hybrid>Sword and board
Hybrid>range
Hybrid>2hander
If you want to try to balance hybrids, support the wpf requirements for weapons idea that's being tossed around by players these days. The reasoning behind it is that the top tier weapons would require specialist levels of wpf, and hybrids would be limited to the lower tiers of equipment. Say I'm a throwing/1hand/shield hybrid, 110 throwing, 120 1 hand. This means, even with 24 str and 8 pt, I could use neither the throwing lances, or a side sword. I'd be limited to say, heavy throwing axes/javs and a broad axe or Nordic champ tier sword. Now, if I'm really skilled, I can kill you consistently with even the low tier weapons, but I really think it'd bring some balance back to the game for the masses.
EDIT : Should have clarified, the wpf requirements are IN ADDITION to the current str/pd/pt requirements. Agi buffers get no special considerations :D.
-
pure builds are balanced
sword and board > range > 2hander > Sword and board
Hybrids however are not balanced
Hybrid>Sword and board
Hybrid>range
Hybrid>2hander
Cav is fine, if your not aware of your surroundings a cav can kill you, if you refuse to carry a polearm cav will kill you.
Crushthrough could use some tweaks.
Agreed. Some items could use some tweaking, but the overall class itself is fine. Its the hybrids which gets the best of both worlds with very limited draw back. Tweaking the WPF curve would help curtail this as well as adding higher requirements for the top tier weapons.
@Kophka, I believe wpf req is impossible due to hard-coding.
-
@Kophka, I believe wpf req is impossible due to hard-coding.
From what I've been hearing about the WSE, they can tweak things however they like, and the WSE tells the game to do it. If true, (or even partially true), wpf requirements can be added with the regular requirements, which is at least worth a look if it can be done.
-
If thats in fact the case, then awesome. Its definitely one potential way of making hybrids less common.