cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Garrus on March 22, 2011, 10:05:20 pm

Title: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: Garrus on March 22, 2011, 10:05:20 pm
Dear Developers,
could you please do a test week with this configuration ?

(click to show/hide)
I hope you see the point! Give it a try.

P.S. I think if it works, then the maximal multiplier should be raised to x10, (x5 provides narrow margins)
decrease the gen xp bonus to 5% (i am gen16, im not trolling), and raise the
level gaps, lets say, with 50%.
As I hope, this system brings some fun into game, increases team moral.

I suggest a week test period for this system, it absolutely fits into the new gameplay.

one more thing: skilled players cry because the personal performance isnt rewarded.
with this, helping your teammates is directly rewarded, and if your team loose with high multiplier,
you and your gang can kill enough enemy before you die, then you will be a hero,
because your team will not reset to x1. Thatswhy I suggested to raise maximal multiplier:
because with higher possible multipliers not falling back to x1 worths much more.

it may be still refined.

opinions ?

EDIT 1:
if max multiplier is 10, then the algorithm looks like this
(click to show/hide)

yes, it means, if both your team and the enemy has 50-50 player,
and you have x10, but you loose, and you killed less than 10 enemy while your team was of course destroyed, then you reset to x1!! but if only 5 enemy survives, that means your team killed
90% of the enemy team, then your multiplier goes back to x9, so it will reward the whole team for performance.

This system says: only you and one of your teammates is alive against 13 enemies ? don't give up.


EDIT 2: (Dynamic multiplier)
Forget it, need to think about it more.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 22, 2011, 10:29:34 pm
Considering this is the first solution that actually rewards for team play, I love it. +1
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: Felagunda on March 22, 2011, 10:42:39 pm
I hope you see the point! Give it a try.

P.S. I think if it works, then the maximal multiplier should be raised to x10, (x5 provides narrow margins)
decrease the gen xp bonus to 5% (i am gen16, im not trolling), and raise the
level gaps, lets say, with 50%.
As I hope, this system brings some fun into game, increases team moral.

I suggest a week test period for this system, it absolutely fits into the new gameplay.
opinions ?

Great thinking man I love it but ya if they did this idea they would have to both increase the multi max to 10 and reduce the bonus for gens.  I am gen 24 and at least support the testing of such a system.  Heck why not, it does reward teamplay!
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: Christo on March 22, 2011, 10:49:26 pm
Anything for a better gaming experience, I say!
 :wink:
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: Garrus on March 22, 2011, 11:19:38 pm
Great thinking man I love it but ya if they did this idea they would have to both increase the multi max to 10 and reduce the bonus for gens.  I am gen 24 and at least support the testing of such a system.  Heck why not, it does reward teamplay!

Raising maximal multiplier and reducing gen bonus is not neccessary, but:
there is not high enough difference between (x4 -> x1) and (x4 -> x3) when you loose.
But if you are at e.g. x8, then falling back to x7 and to x1 is very different.
With my system, in very few cases would you fall back to x1 from x8, only if the enemy team is very strong.
but x10 also brings faster leveling, thatswhy we need bigger level gaps and lower gen bonus.

Quote from: I inserted this part into the opening post
btw,
if max multiplier is 10, then the algorithm looks like this

if (won) then
{
    if (SURVIVALRATE >= 0.9) then { multiplier=multiplier+9 }
    else if (SURVIVALRATE >= 0.8) then { multiplier=multiplier+8 }
    else if (SURVIVALRATE >= 0.7) then { multiplier=multiplier+7 }
    else if (SURVIVALRATE >= 0.6) then { multiplier=multiplier+6 }
    else if (SURVIVALRATE >= 0.5) then { multiplier=multiplier+5 }
    else if (SURVIVALRATE >= 0.4) then { multiplier=multiplier+4 }
    else if (SURVIVALRATE >= 0.3) then { multiplier=multiplier+3 }
    else if (SURVIVALRATE >= 0.2) then { multiplier=multiplier+2 }
    else { multiplier=multiplier+1 }
}
else
{
    if (KILLINGRATE >= 0.9) then { multiplier=multiplier-1 }
    else if (KILLINGRATE >= 0.8) then { multiplier=multiplier-2 }
    else if (KILLINGRATE >= 0.7) then { multiplier=multiplier-3 }
    else if (KILLINGRATE >= 0.6) then { multiplier=multiplier-4 }
    else if (KILLINGRATE >= 0.5) then { multiplier=multiplier-5 }
    else if (KILLINGRATE >= 0.4) then { multiplier=multiplier-6 }
    else if (KILLINGRATE >= 0.3) then { multiplier=multiplier-7 }
    else if (KILLINGRATE >= 0.2) then { multiplier=multiplier-8 }
    else { multiplier=multiplier-9 }
}

I didn't want to write it in 1 line, because this way its easier to understand, but
you can write it in 2 line and then the maximal multiplier can be easily modified


I beg you guys: think about it more times, we have to find the drawbacks of this system!
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: Felagunda on March 22, 2011, 11:37:37 pm
The one thing I think would have to be implemented with such a system would be something different in general would have to be used for siege.  Also people would be so much more inclined to camp that ladders from battle would have to go.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 22, 2011, 11:57:02 pm
One more advantage is that it encourages even further for people not to TK, as it is less potential XP for you!

However, I think one problem with this is that people will start yelling at peasants to not participate in battle unless they have to, in fear of the peasants being slaughtered and "bringing down XP." Life as a peasant might be a wee bit more boring, and people might adapt by specializing in "support" roles while under level 15, by brining 0 PT throwing items, xbows and seige shields, of which might contribute more to the spamming range that some people dislike.

However, this might turn into a tactic to further hunt enemy peasants for range/cav users, as that will ensure the enemy team has a lower XP gain due to the additional losses.

Peasants would turn into valuable semi-deadly cattle that need to be protected.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: Garrus on March 23, 2011, 12:40:07 am
The whole aim of this system is to make teammembers dependent on each other.

A lasso would be awesome, so you could catch kamikaze peasants
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: Farrok on March 23, 2011, 01:05:03 am
i like it, and some little testing doesnt hurt ;)

peasants...yeah would be additional thing for battle/siege->protect your peasants :D

...dont have problem with that with the higher multiplier (and decreased retirement bonus) a peasantstage shouldnt be so long (even now its fast to get to lvl20-24)
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: EponiCo on March 23, 2011, 01:12:14 am
One more advantage is that it encourages even further for people not to TK, as it is less potential XP for you!

However, I think one problem with this is that people will start yelling at peasants to not participate in battle unless they have to, in fear of the peasants being slaughtered and "bringing down XP." Life as a peasant might be a wee bit more boring, and people might adapt by specializing in "support" roles while under level 15, by brining 0 PT throwing items, xbows and seige shields, of which might contribute more to the spamming range that some people dislike.

However, this might turn into a tactic to further hunt enemy peasants for range/cav users, as that will ensure the enemy team has a lower XP gain due to the additional losses.

Peasants would turn into valuable semi-deadly cattle that need to be protected.

Lol.
That could be actually hilarious.

Quote
This system says: only you and one of your teammates is alive against 13 enemies ? don't give up.

But with this I disagree. A lone horse archer should not be encouraged to run and pick up new arrows just because he may kill 2 more.
Also I think the general idea should be the big bonus for winning and a small bonus for survivors/kills.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: Garrus on March 23, 2011, 01:17:12 am
i like it, and some little testing doesnt hurt ;)

peasants...yeah would be additional thing for battle/siege->protect your peasants :D

...dont have problem with that with the higher multiplier (and decreased retirement bonus) a peasantstage shouldnt be so long (even now its fast to get to lvl20-24)

I don't know whether devs can fire up a server with this system, something like beta test.
We could create a character and in my opinion 1 week would be enough to have results.
Then of course those beta characters will be deleted.

I hope cmpx or chadz says something soon...
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: Garrus on March 23, 2011, 01:23:41 am
Lol.
That could be actually hilarious.

But with this I disagree. A lone horse archer should not be encouraged to run and pick up new arrows just because he may kill 2 more.
Also I think the general idea should be the big bonus for winning and a small bonus for survivors/kills.

That arrow picker horsearcher nightmare is reality even now :)
So that problem isn't related to my system.
Btw, I don't see much difference between a last-man-HA and a last-man-roofcamping-archer, do you ?
Both are unreachable.
And of course rules don't change: No run as last, and no camping at unreachable spot.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: MouthnHoof on March 23, 2011, 01:34:05 am
Generally I like it.
Problems:

With this you will generally spend your time with higher multiplier than now (on average). It will require lowering the tic xp/gold value. In itself it is not a problem.

I would advise against going to very high multipliers. On servers with moderate numbers the arrival of a clan or any organized group usually create a streak of victories. It is unavoidable, but sitting on x10 for a few rounds is alot!.

The multipliers do not have to be integers, the increments can be 0.2 to have a finer control within a x5 limit.

Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: EponiCo on March 23, 2011, 01:36:07 am
Yep. It's bad enough as it is, don't reward them for it, is what I mean.
Rules are a grey area, I'm pretty sure the only thing that's really bannable is standing on a roof with destroyed ladder. But all other delaying tactics are allowed as long as you fight.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: Garrus on March 23, 2011, 02:06:23 am
Generally I like it.
Problems:

With this you will generally spend your time with higher multiplier than now (on average). It will require lowering the tic xp/gold value. In itself it is not a problem.

I would advise against going to very high multipliers. On servers with moderate numbers the arrival of a clan or any organized group usually create a streak of victories. It is unavoidable, but sitting on x10 for a few rounds is alot!.

The multipliers do not have to be integers, the increments can be 0.2 to have a finer control within a x5 limit.

Yes, because of high multipiers I wanted make gaps between levels bigger,
so from 1 to 2 wouldn't be 2500, but 6000, or something like that.
But with real numbers it shouldn't be dirtied, so yes, I like that, and I hope multiplier type isn't hardcoded.

The victorystreak is a true problem, but.
With bannerbalance it happens also in the current system that on 20 player server a clan
makes x5 streaks. Autobalance can solve the problem.
It can make keeping the x5 harder and harder.

if we get to a situation, where the blue team has 1 player, and the red has 7, because
that 1 guy is so good, and the autobalance can not put him in a loosing situation,
then I ask: if somebody alone beats 7 enemy, he doesn't deserved high xp and gold ?

Another case, when 5vs15, and that 5 is in the same clan. I'm sure that the autobalance
is already doing that: it takes 1 guy from the clan and puts to enemy,
it overrides bannerbalance.
So in next round at least 1 of them will loose. And it keeps doing it to make the game egal.
You won 4 round in a row ? Autobalance puts you into the loosing team, so equalizes the game.
Moreover, currently if server has e.g. 3vs1 and you are alone and you crush 3 peasants, then
your multiplier will stuck at max x2, try it.

Sooo, I don't think that the the x5streaks are the problem..
But how does this system works with 16 players, presume not in the same clan.
Does it hold the scales even ?
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: chadz on March 23, 2011, 09:52:56 am
Looks interesting, I'll have a detailed look later. I have some changes planned, this might come in handy. No promises, though :P
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: Vibe on March 23, 2011, 10:06:43 am
The squad of code total makeover demands those else if's to be turned into case!

On topic: I support this idea, seems like it's well thought out.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on March 23, 2011, 10:27:03 am
Looks interesting, I'll have a detailed look later. I have some changes planned, this might come in handy. No promises, though :P
Hate you!

edit: ok, finally took the time to read and understand the OP, and I must say: Its absolute brilliant! full support.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: Punisher on March 23, 2011, 11:28:01 am
Great idea Garrus, it would definetly improve the gameplay and I would love to see it implemented.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: Garrus on March 23, 2011, 12:28:04 pm
I was thinking.
It would be silly to refresh the multiplier during the round ?
In current system it is useless because it bothers only with victory or loss.
But if we take kill- and surviverate into account.

So after every minutes, before gaining the gold/xp, modify the multiplier.

This would further reduce the game's staticness.
It would force attacks and defenses.

I put this into OP, and I start a poll.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: ManOfWar on March 23, 2011, 01:03:13 pm
This man is a genius! Put him on a pedestal immediately!
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: Punisher on March 23, 2011, 01:56:51 pm
Not sure about the dynamic multiplier, I think it will encourage constant camping by the team who starts with the higher multiplier.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: Camaris on March 23, 2011, 02:15:53 pm
How do you want to make this work with siege?

Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: Garrus on March 23, 2011, 02:16:29 pm
Not sure about the dynamic multiplier, I think it will encourage constant camping by the team who starts with the higher multiplier.

Yes, I underline again that the idea of dynamic multiplier is in alpha stage. I will update it soon I hope.

How do you want to make this work with siege?

The dynamic multiplier or the original concept ?
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: Vibe on March 23, 2011, 02:18:49 pm
Not sure about the dynamic multiplier, I think it will encourage constant camping by the team who starts with the higher multiplier.

Agree.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: Leiknir on March 23, 2011, 02:24:53 pm
What about siege? (if you dont find a way to balance income to battle, one mode will die again)
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: Punisher on March 23, 2011, 02:30:45 pm
For siege maybe it could be possible to add some "smaller" flags in different locations that if conquered in a specifc amount of time (2 min for each, for example) increase the attackers multiplier (or the defender's if they don't get taken), like side objectives. These ones should have dynamic update and you get to keep the multiplier bonus they offer next round only if you win the current one.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: MouthnHoof on March 23, 2011, 03:42:10 pm
I was thinking.
It would be silly to refresh the multiplier during the round ?
In current system it is useless because it bothers only with victory or loss.
But if we take kill- and surviverate into account.
Updating during the round has two basic problems:
1. SURVIVALRATE will be very high for a long period, then drop sharply as the main forces clash, then stay very low while trying to corner the last archer. KILLINGRATE will follow a similar (reversed) pattern. It will make the multiplier go to extremes. These statistics make sense only on a scale of a full round.
2. Who is the winner and who is the looser (apply SURVIVALRATE or KILLINGRATE)?

In principle, we can think of a way to weigh the two statistics and get a net bonus (one can only increase and the other only decrease). Then it could make sense. The good thing about such a dynamic mechanism is that when the situation is hopeless, instead of dragging time and getting hit by more unfavorable "ticks" to the multiplier, the best strategy would be to stage a last suicidal charge to take down as many enemy with you as possible.
But it might just complicate things, so better leave it a round update.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on March 23, 2011, 03:48:43 pm
What about siege? (if you dont find a way to balance income to battle, one mode will die again)
I'd like to see numbers about this but when I play siege I normally switch between x1 and x2 all the time, seldomly x3 or higher. In battle I allways get good amounts of x5 streaks and my feeling is that average income is much higher. So i'd say its very bad balanced right now, but siege still lives. Like i said, some numbers to varify or falsify this impression would be nice.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: Chort on March 23, 2011, 04:19:09 pm
Situation - 5-10 skilled players and 30 peasants in each team. Skilled players kill the the other skilled players and the theirs peasants while our peasants is waiting for end of round. Number of survived ~35, SURVIVALRATE = ~0,85.

maybe should use sum of levels of the survivors or something like that.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: Garrus on March 23, 2011, 04:39:55 pm
Updating during the round has two basic problems:
1. SURVIVALRATE will be very high for a long period, then drop sharply as the main forces clash, then stay very low while trying to corner the last archer. KILLINGRATE will follow a similar (reversed) pattern. It will make the multiplier go to extremes. These statistics make sense only on a scale of a full round.
2. Who is the winner and who is the looser (apply SURVIVALRATE or KILLINGRATE)?

In principle, we can think of a way to weigh the two statistics and get a net bonus (one can only increase and the other only decrease). Then it could make sense. The good thing about such a dynamic mechanism is that when the situation is hopeless, instead of dragging time and getting hit by more unfavorable "ticks" to the multiplier, the best strategy would be to stage a last suicidal charge to take down as many enemy with you as possible.
But it might just complicate things, so better leave it a round update.

Yes as I already updated the OP, forget this dynamic thing in the case of battle.

Sorry, I would like to concentrate first to battle, then we can go to siege
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: Wallace on March 23, 2011, 05:08:27 pm
I think skilled INDIVIDUALS will complain as opposed to skilled clans. Also this will give more incentive for people to join clans and get organized and in turn further boost strategus.

I vote in favor
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system
Post by: Camaris on March 23, 2011, 06:30:09 pm
Yes as I already updated the OP, forget this dynamic thing in the case of battle.

Sorry, I would like to concentrate first to battle, then we can go to siege

So in memory of how long it takes to implement patches you suggest to make one of both better in XP/h => the other one will die until its patched too.
You cant do one without the other and you should consider CTF which in future probably will be part of CRPG too.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: Elmetiacos on March 23, 2011, 07:04:59 pm
The current xp system needs looking at again: I've just been playing on one of those village maps that are really hard for the attackers to win and so when the attackers decided to camp instead, there was the inevitable draw. I remarked that since the patch we've had an awful lot more draws than before and a couple of players agreed. If you're on a team that can't seem to win, you have nothing to lose with hiding and camping tactics that risk a draw because you're always on x1 anyway.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: Garrus on March 23, 2011, 08:11:54 pm
The current xp system needs looking at again: I've just been playing on one of those village maps that are really hard for the attackers to win and so when the attackers decided to camp instead, there was the inevitable draw. I remarked that since the patch we've had an awful lot more draws than before and a couple of players agreed. If you're on a team that can't seem to win, you have nothing to lose with hiding and camping tactics that risk a draw because you're always on x1 anyway.

Yes, I'm thinking currently about the draw problem, but its very complicated. There must be an easy solution...
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: Thalamond on March 23, 2011, 08:22:12 pm
Garrus is God. Put this in the mod already   :D
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: DarkFox on March 24, 2011, 12:18:58 am
Sounds good,but plz raise the repair price,I have so much equipment and dont know where to waste my money,possibility of having 10x will make the game a bit boring for me.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: EponiCo on March 24, 2011, 02:04:02 am
The current xp system needs looking at again: I've just been playing on one of those village maps that are really hard for the attackers to win and so when the attackers decided to camp instead, there was the inevitable draw. I remarked that since the patch we've had an awful lot more draws than before and a couple of players agreed.
If you're on a team that can't seem to win, you have nothing to lose with hiding and camping tactics that risk a draw because you're always on x1 anyway.

Well, before the patch draw and motf was bugged (no xp for anyone) and everyone who delayed (or survived until the end as archer) was polled. On those unbalanced maps one side just camped always and one always rushed. It isn't the worst idea anyway.
What do you gaing from drawing when you are at x1 anyway? If the map is unbalanced you just draw it out and are still at x1, whereas ending it quickly will give you a new map with better balance. Not that the x5 team has any reason to risk a loss to avoid a draw either.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: Banok on March 24, 2011, 02:43:19 am
I like the way OP thinks.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: Bjarky on March 25, 2011, 02:41:12 am
+1
i'd like too see this being tested out  :D
too the draw problem, i suggest that when the countdown hits "1 min left" there should be an automatic "admin text" with the time warning (or something better).
If the "draw" comes anyway, all players could lose half of the multiplier (losing all would be too much, since this can happen on purpose).
just an idea :)

on the matter for a whole team forcing a draw because of bad map, i think an admin is the best solution imo, but maybe there is a better way, i wish i knew.
maybe polling for random map?
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: Polobow on March 27, 2011, 02:11:32 pm
To prevent people raging at suiciders, why not make a MAXLEVEL = all the levels of every person in the team. Then, if the surviving levels at the end is around 32%, then the team gains +2 multiplier, or +4, depending on the max multiplier.

This gives people who spent more time in the game, compared to a peasant, more control over the multiplier they gain, but they also will be risking a higher % chanche of your the team's maxlevel if you die, than when a peasant dies

I really love the rest! Nicely thought out.
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: Tiberias on March 27, 2011, 07:23:20 pm
+1 8-)
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: Khalim on March 28, 2011, 12:12:21 am
I like the idea! (After I read the idea and thinked about it twice^^)

It looks like XP over time, but in your system every player really has some influence on the game!

Also not resetting to x1 is great because it is frustrating and very fluctuating.

If the average multiplier would change to x5 then it would be reasonable to decrease the bas XP/tick to 500.

Or 1000 and +5% per gen would also be a big deal(do something for the beginner)

Currently my character is deleted because of the xp system, but if there will be a change I might consider a restart :)
Title: Re: [SUGG] Team performance based experience system [edited]
Post by: Polobow on March 28, 2011, 09:11:48 pm
Garrus, what do you think about changing the survivalrate for maxlevel?