cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: owens on May 16, 2012, 03:07:48 am

Title: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: owens on May 16, 2012, 03:07:48 am
Currently every weapon in the game is capable of hilt slashing including the polearms. It is one of the reasons they are so short in game.

My solution would be to have each weapon being two! One with a localised sweet spot the other having much lower damage and existing normally. For instance the lower damage weapon for polearms could do blunt. For 1h and 2h it could just be a low cut value. This way polearms could have the reach and damage they deserve without becoming too powerful.

It would also make combat that bit more intense.
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on May 16, 2012, 03:45:13 am
wat?
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: Son Of Odin on May 16, 2012, 04:33:58 am
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on May 16, 2012, 03:45:13 am
wat?
Just another nab who can't just deal with it (hilt slashes).
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: owens on May 16, 2012, 04:38:46 am
I thought of this immediately after hilt slaying with a  two handed sword. 18/21 that kid had no chance.
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: Son Of Odin on May 16, 2012, 04:58:59 am
Quote from: owens on May 16, 2012, 04:38:46 am
I thought of this immediately after hilt slaying with a  two handed sword. 18/21 that kid had no chance.
He had a chance, but I guess he was as noob as you and can't block :lol:
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: owens on May 16, 2012, 05:58:27 am
He had high athletics and was trying to over rotate into an attack but I stepped in and blocked and quickly cut him in half with the pommel of my sword.

At this point I thought that whole scenario was unrealistic and pointless. A long claw doesn't have a sharpened pole and my hands aren't cleavers. It is a realism, gameplay and in some ways a balance issue. Also ask Frank PK can play in 30 minutes he didn't get one kill on our server.
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: Vodner on May 16, 2012, 06:09:17 am
This would reduce melee depth. It is already pretty easy to block in a 1v1. Forcing centered swings would make it completely trivial.

Combat should get harder/faster as the playerbase gets better. Not slower.
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: owens on May 16, 2012, 07:24:09 am
Why would combat speed drop? It wouldn't. Polearm builds would have to be quicker 2h more str focused. 1H would be buffed.
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: Vodner on May 16, 2012, 07:29:53 am
Quote from: owens on May 16, 2012, 07:24:09 am
Why would combat speed drop? It wouldn't. Polearm builds would have to be quicker 2h more str focused. 1H would be buffed.
It takes a very long time to hit somebody with a centered swing, compared to a hit immediately after finishing the chamber animation. Combat would be painfully slow (more than it already is, anyways).
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: Cyclopsided on May 16, 2012, 08:13:21 am
Quote from: Vodner on May 16, 2012, 06:09:17 am
This would reduce melee depth. It is already pretty easy to block in a 1v1. Forcing centered swings would make it completely trivial.

Combat should get harder/faster as the playerbase gets better. Not slower.
^

More melee depth is always a good thing.
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: owens on May 16, 2012, 09:31:56 am
You can still hit someone with any part of your weapon that is the value of my idea, but to deal maximum damage or reduce your chance of bouncing you will try to use the higher damage part of the weapon.


The speed ratings or reach on some weapons could be increased accordingly this would also solve pikes.
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: Vodner on May 16, 2012, 10:20:21 am
Quote from: owens on May 16, 2012, 09:31:56 am
You can still hit someone with any part of your weapon that is the value of my idea, but to deal maximum damage or reduce your chance of bouncing you will try to use the higher damage part of the weapon.
It often already takes 3-5 normal hits to kill an enemy player (assuming you can't sneak in a hold, or a high speed bonus hit). Really, holds already fill the 'slow, high-damage' niche quite well, capable of adding a damage bonus equivalent to adding over 3 points of powerstrike.

Even in native fastest servers, centered side-swings usually aren't too hard to block.
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 16, 2012, 10:39:52 am
Enjoy PTX and Smooth, let the great banner of the drama thread unfurl!

-------

Every thread, you have to attack me. Every god damned time. Why? What's the point. Does it make you feel good to bully people? To go after them and insult, to create opportunities to be a bully. I just don't see why you and Sudo think it's so "cool" and "hip" and fucking "with it" to be bullies and to shit on the people around you.

You can go ahead and be the king on internet swords and horses. It still doesn't change the fact that you're a shit human being with the social skills of a lobotomized rapist. You are and always will be an incompetent retard, just like your parents and friends and unfortunately just like your tainted offspring will be.   

You are the dirt on the bottom of my boot, the scum I scour off the pot that sat idle on the hob over night. You are less than nothing, a vacant, void, soulless pit of black so pointless you dis-pointed your family before you were even born. 

You sir are what we in the business call "free money". Someone to fails before they even try. You will come, sign up and be destroyed by the simplest task the leave, never to bother us with your petty problems and pointless, trivial incompetence. A turd to be flushed through the system so we can fleece you and give it to some one that matters.

The truest sign of your pathetic mind is that the greatest insult that bag of hammers you call a brain could invent is "your not very good at internet swords and horses".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX7dSsZDPUs&feature=fvst
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: Vibe on May 16, 2012, 11:00:59 am
^

where did this come from
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 16, 2012, 11:22:43 am
Months of go nowhere pointless abuse from PK members. I felt like venting :D
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: Kafein on May 16, 2012, 11:33:46 am
Hiltslashing is painful because it is easy to pull off and breaks the combat rythm. Breaking the combat rythm is a good thing, as long as it doesn't turn it into a totally depthless random rock-paper-scissors game a-la "you hold/feint, I spam, I win - you attack normally, I spam, I lose", which is the case for hiltslashing. In the end, fighting hiltslashers is just a matter of knowing who are the hiltslashers in the first place, and play accordingly ( that is, blockblockattackblockblockattack and forgetting about doing interesting things like feints and holds ). I think hiltslashers are boring because they force the opponent to be uncreative, make the outcome more random and draw duels for hours.

Removing it altogether would actually speed up my combats because I wouldn't need to switch to Urist mode.
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: Cyclopsided on May 16, 2012, 12:11:25 pm
Hiltslashing is incredibly easy, but is also incredibly easy to defeat by countering their swing&footwork direction.
A good hiltslasher will automatically start the second swing, but cancel it only if the enemy properly counters it - thus making it a safe move and not a gamble.
Fighting a good hiltslasher is annoying since they look like they are taking so much risk but aren't, but they have a specific weakness toward chambering that I love to exploit. Soon as you break them by punishing their hiltslashing they turn to other things and it get's nice and deep into combat with all the tricks.

in EU the metagame has lots of feinting which I don't understand as an NA dueler who doesn't feint more than 1 out of 15 wings. There is so much more depth outside of feintspamming that I don't want to type about, and every feint leaves yourself open to such simple counter attacks by someone with good timing... Sure you can block them, but it leaves you so open and ready to be countered.

Kafein, I think you need to have some practice on exploiting all the weakness those hiltslash-random-draw result players have though. Feinting is NOT it though.
Hiltslashers are my favorite attack style to fight in dueling. Because once you break that surface, it get's fun (or you automatically win).

Try not feinting at all for two weeks and explore the other ends of combat a little, you might find a few interesting tricks/timings that absolutely crush hiltslashers ;)
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: owens on May 16, 2012, 01:56:24 pm
^I dont care.

Sorry Frank i didn't realise you felt that way and i was more trying to demonstrate that I am not a new player raging but an experienced one trying to improve the game. A was under the impression that you had some respect or were at least heard of in NA. It is true that the last time I watched you playing you got railed, no offence but you were using a stodgy build designed for playing with high ping against the unaware and vulnerable.

Any way i am more trying to solve the realism and predominantly game play issues that arise from pole arms that are also swords. Imagine hitting someone with the tip of your spear and delivering cut instead of a very low blunt value just because you got you footwork and pause dead on.

I think it is worth pursuing. Imagine hitting someone over head with the pommel of your sword and doing blunt knocking them flat on their ass :D.

Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: Kafein on May 16, 2012, 05:27:49 pm
It's not that I don't know other tricks than feinting and holding, but I prefer these two and they work very well on 80% of the players I fight. Since I use a 1h, playing with reach is barely possible, kicking makes me a sitting duck and chamberblocking often doesn't work because the enemy gets out of my reach by the time I complete it, not to mention the strict timing with 1h and that it's still blockable.


Also, things that aren't feinting or holding always end up being spam when you get to the bottom of it and I don't like that.
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: MrShine on May 16, 2012, 06:07:06 pm
Quote from: Kafein on May 16, 2012, 05:27:49 pm
Also, things that aren't feinting or holding always end up being spam when you get to the bottom of it and I don't like that.

I don't think that's really true.

"Spam" often comes from someone making a risky swing that leaves them vulnerable to counterattack.  It works sometimes because the other player isn't expecting a spam attack and is attempting a feint/hold whatever.  Most of the time this comes from someone who doesn't understand how combat works or if someone becomes impatient and tries to steal a hit.  Yes it can be annoying to die from "spam" in this way, but whenever I fall prey to it I try to remind myself to pay more attention to the enemy's swings.  It is very easy to defeat a simple spammer, because all you need to do is block -> standard attack.

However there are plenty of times where "spam" works because you win the positioning battle or you recognize the other player's next swing isn't appropriate.  This is the "educated spam" that actually has battle merit IMO.  If I am positioned with a 1H left swing and I see the enemy try to do a right swing I know that I have a good chance to get my swing in first based on positioning.   In the similar manner many 2H players attempt the side-swing -> backup & thrust attack.  If you aren't prepared to move forward you can get caught by this "spam" but it's actually not spam at all.  Similarly you can counter it by being prepared to move forward or to try and chamber their thrust.

So I think that "spam" and "orchestrated spam" should be separated, one is a style based on ignorance and the other is calculated... it's just hard to distinguish the two sometimes  :wink:



TLDR: I don't think the combat system needs to be changed any further to prevent hiltslashes - they already were nerfed and are much more rare now.

Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 17, 2012, 12:16:13 am
Quote from: owens on May 16, 2012, 01:56:24 pm
^I dont care.

Sorry Frank i didn't realise you felt that way and i was more trying to demonstrate that I am not a new player raging but an experienced one trying to improve the game. A was under the impression that you had some respect or were at least heard of in NA. It is true that the last time I watched you playing you got railed, no offence but you were using a stodgy build designed for playing with high ping against the unaware and vulnerable.

Any way i am more trying to solve the realism and predominantly game play issues that arise from pole arms that are also swords. Imagine hitting someone with the tip of your spear and delivering cut instead of a very low blunt value just because you got you footwork and pause dead on.

I think it is worth pursuing. Imagine hitting someone over head with the pommel of your sword and doing blunt knocking them flat on their ass :D.

Thanks for that, sorry for imploding. It's just kind of felt like every time I see you or sudo one of you insults me right off the bat. I'll endeavour to put all this crap under the bridge and forget about it.

Take a look at Chivalry http://www.chivalrythegame.com they have a pretty awesome hit detection system and what your talking about will definitely be possible with it.

Take a look at dev blog 1 http://www.chivalrythegame.com/blog/?page_id=111

Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: owens on May 17, 2012, 12:21:46 am
Is age of chivalry any good?

What I am really asking is does it have manual blocking?
I know that you "super good" players don't think that improving the combat system is important but i think if cRPG wants to keep up with all the alternative games it needs to adapt and change all the time.
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: Zisa on May 17, 2012, 01:16:00 am
Spam... mashing the button.

Not spam - planning your attacks and executing them. It's still not spam if your opponent can not handle it.
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: owens on May 17, 2012, 05:25:11 am
Go away.

I am not trying to end spam.
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 17, 2012, 10:22:12 am
Yeah it has manual blocking, it's timed as well. you have to aim your block into the swing and if you don't you can get stunned and damaged even for landing a "block". It could be pretty interesting, I just really don't like first person and they are pushing it as a first person game even though it seems to have third person. Really not sure. I prefer the look of War of the Roses but again that could wind up being horrible, I just hope one of these things comes up with the goods.
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: Black Wind on May 17, 2012, 11:49:52 am
Now in regards to the OP, I think sweet-spots should be maximised, and hilt-slashing should deal negligible damage. This would really intensify polearm builds, and help with pike bullshit.

It's really unrealistic how being hit with a pike for maximum damage ehen it's poking out the other side.
Title: Re: Ultimate solution to game balance.
Post by: owens on May 18, 2012, 04:11:25 am
^exactly

Of course it took a PK's mind to comprehend the improvements that could be made to cRPG.