cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: wanteds on May 04, 2012, 11:59:43 am

Title: Iron Flesh
Post by: wanteds on May 04, 2012, 11:59:43 am
What say thee... hmmm?
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Phazey on May 04, 2012, 12:01:04 pm
Higher IF would nerf hybrids and buff 'pure' builds.
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 04, 2012, 12:01:08 pm
I would stack construction sites in a door way.
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Para on May 04, 2012, 12:01:28 pm
If you make IF +3 HP you just make super STR builds even better.
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: _Tak_ on May 04, 2012, 12:02:47 pm
After the new patch Urist made iron flesh very useful in Rage ball (When you are carrying the ball)
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Ylca on May 04, 2012, 12:03:17 pm
If you think IF is in any way underpowered at the moment you lack an understanding of the mechanics of this game. IF is one of the best skills in the game hands down and buffing it would absolutely wreck any semblance of balance this game has.
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: wanteds on May 04, 2012, 12:11:17 pm
To my taste, in general, the damage is too high in comparison with health in this mod. And after all, a +1 boost is not all that much!
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Meow on May 04, 2012, 12:15:50 pm
I'm a BAWS!!!

Also:

1. Remove HP gain from Str
2. Remove WPF gain from leveling
3. Make IF give 4hp
4. Readjust WPF gain from WM
5. ???
6. Profit!
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Torben on May 04, 2012, 12:18:11 pm
IF should not buff HP but the effectiveniss of your armor imo
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: wanteds on May 04, 2012, 12:19:49 pm
Quote from: Meow on May 04, 2012, 12:15:50 pm
I'm a BAWS!!!

Also:

1. Remove HP gain from Str
2. Remove WPF gain from leveling
3. Make IF give 4hp
4. Readjust WPF gain from WM
5. ???
6. Profit!

That looks like a big nerf to everything, please, for the love of God, don't!
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Meow on May 04, 2012, 12:25:17 pm
It sure is a huge nerf to str builds ;)
Only the WM/WPF thing is necessary though, doens't really need IF changes.
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Beauchamp on May 04, 2012, 12:27:09 pm
i like the current system
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: wanteds on May 04, 2012, 12:29:04 pm
why do you, modders of crpg, I don't know why, like to make this community a big (agi) whore house?
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Naelia on May 04, 2012, 12:32:50 pm
Quote from: Meow on May 04, 2012, 12:15:50 pm
I'm a BAWS!!!

Also:

1. Remove HP gain from Str
2. Remove WPF gain from leveling
3. Make IF give 4hp
4. Readjust WPF gain from WM
5. ???
6. Profit!

VERY GOOD IDEA!
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on May 04, 2012, 12:48:35 pm
If Meow's thing becomes real, my build would be horribly nerfed. I have 19 strength but only 2 IF at level 33. Would be a little meh to be forced to respec.

Anyway,
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on December 28, 2011, 01:20:41 pm
Health gain from STR/IF is hardcoded and changing it requires more effort than it's worth.
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Vibe on May 04, 2012, 12:48:40 pm
Quote from: Meow on May 04, 2012, 12:15:50 pm
I'm a BAWS!!!

Also:

1. Remove HP gain from Str
2. Remove WPF gain from leveling
3. Make IF give 4hp
4. Readjust WPF gain from WM
5. ???
6. Profit!

this
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: MrShine on May 04, 2012, 02:43:06 pm
@ Meow's suggestion: That would intensely fuck up balance in general.  I would just respec to cav and plated charger bump everyone to death since HP totals would be down across the board.
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: wanteds on May 04, 2012, 03:13:17 pm
Quote from: MrShine on May 04, 2012, 02:43:06 pm
@ Meow's suggestion: That would intensely fuck up balance in general.  I would just respec to cav and plated charger bump everyone to death since HP totals would be down across the board.

This.

hp would be even lower than now with that formula, which is a step towards killing this mod.
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Leshma on May 04, 2012, 03:30:10 pm
Quote
Health gain from STR/IF is hardcoded and changing it requires more effort than it's worth.

Say wut?

I'm pretty sure that back in the days IF gave you +3 HP. How come it's impossible now?

And I'm against it because I remember how it was. There will be even more STR builds than now, if they buff IF.
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: wanteds on May 04, 2012, 03:40:49 pm
Quote from: Leshma on May 04, 2012, 03:30:10 pm

And I'm against it because I remember how it was. There will be even more STR builds than now, if they buff IF.

So 99.99% of the players being agi builds is no problem, only the str builds are a thorn in the eye?
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Leshma on May 04, 2012, 03:43:37 pm
So anyone who has more than 15 agi is agi build for you?

STR build is someone with 27 strength and higher. AGI build is the same, just with 27 AGI. How many players you know with 27 AGI (ninjas included)?
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Khalim on May 04, 2012, 03:49:09 pm
Quote from: Ylca on May 04, 2012, 12:03:17 pm
If you think IF is in any way underpowered at the moment you lack an understanding of the mechanics of this game. IF is one of the best skills in the game hands down and buffing it would absolutely wreck any semblance of balance this game has.

True

If you have 40 HP and get +4 IF you have 20% more survivability.

Its also true that weapons do a lot of damage, but having more HP means, that CHANCES are higher, that you survive more hits. For instance it really does make a big difference if you survive 3 instead of 2 hits.

Or imagine how big the difference is when a Masterwork Arbalest hits you for 95% damage instead of 120%...
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: wanteds on May 04, 2012, 04:03:18 pm
Quote from: Leshma on May 04, 2012, 03:43:37 pm
So anyone who has more than 15 agi is agi build for you?

STR build is someone with 27 strength and higher. AGI build is the same, just with 27 AGI. How many players you know with 27 AGI (ninjas included)?

so an agi whore with 24 agi is not an agi whore? whaaaaat?
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: EyeBeat on May 04, 2012, 05:06:11 pm
Quote from: Meow on May 04, 2012, 12:15:50 pm
I'm a BAWS!!!

Also:

1. Remove HP gain from Str
2. Remove WPF gain from leveling
3. Make IF give 4hp
4. Readjust WPF gain from WM
5. ???
6. Profit!

Give this man a medal.
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Ptolemy on May 04, 2012, 05:43:06 pm
Quote from: Leshma on May 04, 2012, 03:43:37 pm
So anyone who has more than 15 agi is agi build for you?

STR build is someone with 27 strength and higher. AGI build is the same, just with 27 AGI. How many players you know with 27 AGI (ninjas included)?

I could name... including ninjas... for absolutely certain... 5? It would be more if I included ninjas that I'm not sure of the builds for.

Quote from: wanteds on May 04, 2012, 04:03:18 pm
so an agi whore with 24 agi is not an agi whore? whaaaaat?

24 agi isn't an agi whore. High agility yes, but not an agi whore. Having high agility doesn't necessarily make you an agi whore, just like having high strength doesn't necessarily make you a strength crutcher.

Also...

Quote from: Meow on May 04, 2012, 12:15:50 pm
I'm a BAWS!!!

Also:

1. Remove HP gain from Str
2. Remove WPF gain from leveling
3. Make IF give 4hp
4. Readjust WPF gain from WM
5. ???
6. Profit!

*Throws a ball of wool to distract Meow from breaking the mod*
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on May 04, 2012, 05:47:04 pm
I've been playing an xbow user and for the last three generations didn't put a single point in IF. Having 15-18 strength is enough extra HP for a ranged character. With light or medium armor, you won't die to a random arrow hitting your shoulder or a single horse bump. You don't need to be any more meaty than that since you ideally won't be in close combat anyway.

I can even throw on some mail and grab a decent 2h to get kills if it's a crappy map for ranged combat (or if I am bored and just want to mix things up).

That said, if you are going for a heavily armored infantry or cavalry build, points in IF change you from a tin can to a GUNDAM
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Vkvkvk on May 04, 2012, 06:22:05 pm
Quote from: Leshma on May 04, 2012, 03:43:37 pm
So anyone who has more than 15 agi is agi build for you?

STR build is someone with 27 strength and higher. AGI build is the same, just with 27 AGI. How many players you know with 27 AGI (ninjas included)?

I only know of myself frequently playing builds with 27 agility.


Quote from: Meow on May 04, 2012, 12:15:50 pm
I'm a BAWS!!!

Also:

1. Remove HP gain from Str
2. Remove WPF gain from leveling
3. Make IF give 4hp
4. Readjust WPF gain from WM
5. ???
6. Profit!

Wouldn't this technically fuck over Agi builds? Sure, we'd finally have a noticeable WPF difference over strenght builds, but we'd be even more squishy which is a LOT to say since we already die in 2 hits if we're lucky, in most agi builds, there's no room left for IF and even if there was, it's only a few points compared to the 5IF and over that most strenght builds have.
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Dexxtaa on May 04, 2012, 06:38:44 pm
nerf str.

Get those build copypastas out of my realm!
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: _Sebastian_ on May 04, 2012, 07:18:34 pm
Quote from: Leshma on May 04, 2012, 03:30:10 pm
Say wut?

I'm pretty sure that back in the days IF gave you +3 HP. How come it's impossible now?

And I'm against it because I remember how it was. There will be even more STR builds than now, if they buff IF.
All effects of attributes, skills and weapon proficies are hardcoded... thats true.

I dont think that IF ever gave +3hp and I play M&B since the beta of the first game.
And if it is true, then the 3 hit points per IF were also hardcoded.
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Tom Cruise on May 04, 2012, 09:15:41 pm
Do people really think that only 3 IF is enough? or am I just to much of a crutch with my 7 IF to realize it?
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Shatter on May 04, 2012, 10:01:12 pm
IF is already the best stat behind PS/Ath.

Even with 21/18 and wearing a Cavalry Robe, I tank hits with 7 IF. If you stack IF, you definitely notice a big difference. While WM is really only good for hybrids and archers. The difference between 0 and 5 WM in one weapon proficiency is noticeable but hardly has any impact when compared to the difference between 0 and 5 IF.
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Tears of Destiny on May 04, 2012, 10:05:19 pm
This would be hilarious, as my shielder would go from 70HP to 77HP which is pretty significant in my opinion, and my siege character would skyrocket from 93HP to 104HP...

Though I think this is a bad idea, as it would promote fights lasting even longer (which is bad).
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Gurnisson on May 04, 2012, 10:11:00 pm
I'M A BAWS!!!
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Leshma on May 04, 2012, 10:21:38 pm
Quote from: Tears of Destiny on May 04, 2012, 10:05:19 pm
This would be hilarious, as my shielder would go from 70HP to 77HP which is pretty significant in my opinion, and my siege character would skyrocket from 93HP to 104HP...

Though I think this is a bad idea, as it would promote fights lasting even longer (which is bad).

With changes Meow suggested it would have:

35 HP
+
28 HP (7 IF)
=
63 HP

My build would have:

35 HP
+
24 HP (6 IF)
=
59 HP

Instead of 65 HP. That's 9% HP loss. Not too bad.

On the other hand 36/3 build will have

35 HP
+
48 HP (12 IF)
=
83 HP

Instead of 95 HP. That's 12.6% HP loss.

Along with free wpf nerf, It's a definite nerf to STR builds. Balanced builds will rule in that case and it has my support.

edit: fixed some percentages
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Tears of Destiny on May 04, 2012, 10:30:08 pm
I do like Meow's suggestion a lot, certainly. That would make me be rather happy with the IF skill giving 3HP instead of 2HP.
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Nessaj on May 04, 2012, 10:51:47 pm
Quote from: Meow on May 04, 2012, 12:15:50 pm
I'm a BAWS!!!

Also:

1. Remove HP gain from Str
2. Remove WPF gain from leveling
3. Make IF give 4hp
4. Readjust WPF gain from WM
5. ???
6. Profit!

Those would be great changes in the terms of fairness and balance.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Zandieer on May 04, 2012, 11:30:32 pm
Quote from: Meow on May 04, 2012, 12:15:50 pm
I'm a BAWS!!!

Also:

1. Remove HP gain from Str
2. Remove WPF gain from leveling
3. Make IF give 4hp
4. Readjust WPF gain from WM
5. ???
6. Profit!

We need this!! I agree 120%
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Meow on May 04, 2012, 11:44:32 pm
Quote from: Nessaj on May 04, 2012, 10:51:47 pm
(click to show/hide)

I also agree 120% to this!
Oh god it's so hawt =/
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Shatter on May 04, 2012, 11:48:52 pm
Meow's change lowers everyone's health (even though it affects STR users moderately more) which I think would be a buff to ranged. Archers in melee will normally die in 1 or 2 hits regardless but it will take 1 or 2 less arrows to kill a melee.

Also with his change, you are almost forced into taking IF. Leaves room for less customizing of characters and build diversity.
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Meow on May 04, 2012, 11:54:01 pm
You are also forced into taking WM.

Probably could use another nerf so below 100 wpf is actually a penalty to speed :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on May 04, 2012, 11:54:13 pm
i think it is good as it is now
but about WM +1 to meow
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: pepejul on May 05, 2012, 12:49:01 am
I play polearm...with 0 if and 8 WM.... good for me

LVL 32

 str 18
 agi 24

173 Wpf in polearm

0 IF
6 PS
8 Ath
8 WM

Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Vkvkvk on May 05, 2012, 04:43:21 am
Quote from: pepejul on May 05, 2012, 12:49:01 am
I play polearm...with 0 if and 8 WM.... good for me

LVL 32

 str 18
 agi 24

173 Wpf in polearm

0 IF
6 PS
8 Ath
8 WM

With Meow's idea, you'd have less HP than the current peasants :3.

Have fun with 35 hp and getting one shot by everything.
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Bobthehero on May 05, 2012, 04:50:30 am
With Meow ideas I'll have about 100 hp.

Eh... eh eh eh eh eh eh eh

Oh and I have WM too, so no risk of losing that much WPF.

Feel free to do that Meow   :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: MrShine on May 05, 2012, 05:37:54 am
Quote from: Bobthehero on May 05, 2012, 04:50:30 am
With Meow ideas I'll have about 100 hp.

Eh... eh eh eh eh eh eh eh

Oh and I have WM too, so no risk of losing that much WPF.

Feel free to do that Meow   :mrgreen:

Meow said you only get HP from IF, not from strength.  You would actually lose a substantial amount of HP

That means at level 30 you will have 35 HP pre-Ironflesh.
That means the absolute maximum HP you could get with a level 30 build (39-3 13 IF) would give you 87 HP.
Currently a 21/18 build w/ 4 IF has 64 HP.  With Meow's proposed changes that same build would have 51 HP.

The change would be bad; I don't feel like I need to explain all the reasons why, but for starters survivability would plummet which means ranged & heavy cav would get a substantial buff.
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Bobthehero on May 05, 2012, 06:05:32 am
Edit: OH

Meow you asshole ):<
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: San on May 05, 2012, 06:38:17 am
I feel that compared to PS/Athletics, Ironflesh is slightly worse and WM is much worse.
Mainly, I would like to have ironflesh and WM almost as important as things like PS/PD/PT, Riding above 3/4, and athletics. Oh and shield, too -_-.

For me, I would like:
1. STR + 1 hp for every even point
2. Ironflesh  +4hp (average hp increases by ~5 at max IF), or +3 hp (average hp drops by a ~5 at max IF),

This properly boosts IF without changing natural HP levels too much. This hurts builds that don't put points into IF.

3. Halve free WPF (natural WPF or WPF with 1WM would give ~60-80 proficiency points)
4. Agility gives free WPF (18 agi should give enough free WPF for a level 30 as it does now, ~110 or so)

By giving free wpf by raising agility, it equalizes itself over strength, and buffs further use of raising agility slightly.

5. Lessen the slope of high WPF or some Weapon Master Buff
Make it so higher levels in Weapon Master actually mean something.

This is difficult because one does not want to make it too punishing for hybrid builds.
Increasing the amount of points you get from higher WM levels could work fine, although slightly lessening the WPF curve would be appreciated.


Overall, it would be a nerf to strength users' weapon speeds while increasing durability with +4 hp Ironflesh (I had +3 first option, but felt that that would have been too big a nerf), a few more hp if IF is maxed. Might nerf high strength ranged with less free WPF.

Balanced builds would remain relatively unchanged, since their str and agi would balance everything out to be comparable to how it is now. They may be able to get higher wpf due to the weapon master buff, though. Medium agi, low WM builds will still be faced with a population that has higher WPF in weapons on average, so higher WM will be more helpful than before.

Agi builds will be buffed, but they really need to max their IF or they will be even more fragile. Ranged would be more accurate, yet people may have a few more points hp on average.

Builds that sacrifice skill points for an extra point in PS/athletics or something will get nerfed. They will still get 1-2 hp or some proficiency points out of it though just from the +3 str/agi.
Title: Re: Iron Flesh
Post by: Piok on May 05, 2012, 06:54:01 am
Just give me +1 hp per athletic and all will be fine :twisted:

Suggestion: make crossbows slower and then powerdraw can increase reloading speed :!: