cRPG

cRPG => Ban/Unban Requests => Closed Requests => Topic started by: bigsean on April 29, 2012, 02:14:12 am

Title: Ban Request: JesusHChrist
Post by: bigsean on April 29, 2012, 02:14:12 am
NA Rageball server, this guy JesusHChrist was dominating by having a high ATH char, low armor, and a torch to get the goals in. The score was 10-1 by the end of the map. Next map I switched to a horn/tatar bow instead of my usual setup and kept killing this guy (which I think is a really good tactic for a gamemode usually dominated by high ATH) and my team was able to get up to x5. JesusHChrist got all mad and started a poll to kick me, then immediately raqequit.

The poll went through too which makes this kind of thing really really stupid.

Here he starts the poll and quits:
(click to show/hide)

Other players are like ???:
(click to show/hide)

and then I got kicked.

Requesting a ban for this poll abuse.

Thanks
Title: Re: Ban Request: JesusHChrist
Post by: Draulius on April 29, 2012, 05:28:27 am
I witnessed this (you can see me getting a kill in the chat) and Idlewild speaks the truth. He did nothing but kill JesusHChrist. In response to this, JesusHChrist not only poll abused, but also abused chat out of anger by insulting Idlewind with profanity.
Title: Re: Ban Request: JesusHChrist
Post by: Tydeus on April 30, 2012, 03:17:11 pm
Ban request denied due to being such a minor offense. Added him to the "Watch List".
Title: Re: Ban Request: JesusHChrist
Post by: bigsean on April 30, 2012, 05:00:20 pm
How is a poll kick for a 5x on the rageball server a "minor offence" while tk'ing one person or tw'ing a few times results in a 24 hour ban? The former affects the gameplay experience much more than the latter, that much is obvious.

You can't even do this properly, your recent 4 hour ban of those throwers (of which you were too incompetent to write leeching/delaying instead of teamkilling) turned into a 24 hour "somehow".

I'd like a re-evaluation from an admin who doesn't have a terrible history and a hateful attitude towards me.

You also need to explicitly state that poll abusing will not result in a ban, since that is your opinion.
Title: Re: Ban Request: JesusHChrist
Post by: oprah_winfrey on April 30, 2012, 05:14:17 pm
Just out of curiosity, why did the poll pass?

Also, if you sit around DMing people, they tend to get mad.
Title: Re: Ban Request: JesusHChrist
Post by: bigsean on April 30, 2012, 05:29:04 pm
I think the teams were 3-4 so if that entire opposing team votes yes it will go through, which happens quite often and is the reason poll abuse shouldn't be a minor offense.

DM'ing with archery is actually really hard in rageball, you don't land all the shots and they regen health too fast. It was possible to counter high ATH players like this because they have such low health/armor that they die in 2 shots from a regular horn bow + tatar arrows. It just pissed Jesus off because he was dominating the server and I was able to counter that.
Title: Re: Ban Request: JesusHChrist
Post by: Canary on April 30, 2012, 05:36:31 pm
Quote from: Idlewild on April 30, 2012, 05:00:20 pm
You also need to explicitly state that poll abusing will not result in a ban, since that is your opinion.

You need to understand that a punishment given out by an admin isn't a rigid exemplar of every situation involving the same rule. You'd also do well not to state someone's opinion for them when they haven't given it on the matter directly, let alone in the exact way you expressed it on their behalf.

This thread will do well to serve as a warning to JesusHChrist, and if he's discovered abusing kick or ban-polls again in the future, he will be given a ban. (hence "Watch List")
Title: Re: Ban Request: JesusHChrist
Post by: bigsean on April 30, 2012, 05:40:25 pm
Well is this watch list something that is easily accessible to all admins when rendering a decision or is it just someone's notepad document?

It's not too much to ask for consistent admin actions canary. And his opinion is pretty obvious, clear evidence of poll abuse results in a minor offence.

Anyways i'd like to hear some non chaos, gg, or PRO affiliated admins direct opinions on poll abuse, yours too.
Title: Re: Ban Request: JesusHChrist
Post by: Tydeus on April 30, 2012, 06:07:17 pm
We have a thread in the NA admin section for it, it is constantly viewed by any active administrators.
Title: Re: Ban Request: JesusHChrist
Post by: Spanish on April 30, 2012, 06:10:11 pm
Canary is a good and fair admin and I agree with him in this or would you rather have an opinion from an admin that isn't clan affiliated? As admins we try our best to be fair to everyone and handle each situation and thank you for posting about this instead of taking matters into you're own hands. We will watch him and if he does this again he will be banned.
Title: Re: Ban Request: JesusHChrist
Post by: Rumblood on April 30, 2012, 11:01:08 pm
Quote from: Idlewild on April 30, 2012, 05:40:25 pm
It's not too much to ask for consistent admin actions canary. And his opinion is pretty obvious, clear evidence of poll abuse results in a minor offence.

Anyways i'd like to hear some non chaos, gg, or PRO affiliated admins direct opinions on poll abuse, yours too.

Whether or not something is poll abuse is going to be subject to interpretation. Trust me, I'm a very vocal (maybe overly vocal) proponent of having consistent admin actions. But there are so many grey areas that it is only possible to provide guidlines as to what to do should something occur, and it is up to the Admin to decide exactly what occured.

Rageball is particularly thorny. It is a new(er) game mode, with very little in specific rules that apply to it, while Battle and Siege do.

I see from your description that what you did was a tactic, and apparently an effective one. I don't fault you for it.
However, looking at this thread where the creator of the game mode weighs in and calls the "TDM" players "bottom feeders", and is proposing a new scoring system to discourage constant killing of the opposing team, that killing someone every time that they spawn is not the goal of the game mode.

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,29359.msg430643.html#msg430643 (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,29359.msg430643.html#msg430643)

He doesn't agree with the "kill zone" opinion, because of the way that the ball moves so fast from one zone to the other, but it is clear (to me at least), that spawn camping and killing is not the object there in his mind.

But there still is no defined rule set other than debate on how to discourage the type of play that you could be interpreted as having adopted against this player.

The only mechanism to allow the population of the server to determine whether someone is playing Rageball, or being a "bottom feeder" (or a troll) is the poll option.

I wish there was a ruleset that defined what playing Rageball is or isn't. Is it killing everything in sight? Well that's not against the rules, but clearly against the intentions of the creator of the mod.
It's kinda like Rugby, where tackling is allowed and blocking is allowed, but taking someone down far away from the ball and pounding them into the turf over and over isn't.
But again, we don't have defined rules for it.

Rageball is the wild west.

So lets take all of that into mind and get back to this kick poll. Was it abuse?

I would have to say no. While you took the strategy of killing this guy over and over and over to prevent him from getting the ball and scoring, it appears to be against the spirit of the game as I read the mod creators intentions and labeling of that playstyle of "bottom feeding". Yes, I know you considered it a valid tactic and it worked, but do the rest of the Rageball players?
Should the Rageball population have a say in whether someone playing or being a griefing kill whore troll? I would have to say yes to that. (Not saying that you were, I get your thinking, but there is more than one way to see something)

Now, if it had failed, and he continued to post poll after poll until it passed, then yes I would say that is poll abuse.

On other game modes, it would have been no question. You killed him, he couldn't take it and polled you. Poll abuse.

On Rageball....it is up to interpretation on what you were doing. If he were carrying the ball, again, no question. You were doing what you were supposed to be doing, killing the guy with it. Without it, killing someone over and over and over and over as they respawn could be rule breaking if there were actually any, and a form of griefing if the interpretation were taken a step further.
No rules exist like that, so you weren't breaking any. But I also wouldn't say that creating a kick poll for someone who could be seen as going against the spirit of the game (or trolling in their eyes) as being poll abuse either.

In short, Rageball could use some "Official Rules" tightening to avoid disagreements like this. In the meantime, it has been left to the Rageball players to work out what a Rageball game should be. Polls will likely continue to be a part of that unless someone who makes the server rules changes that. Contrary to the popular winds blowing at us, that is NOT the NA Admins. We just do our best to enforce them as they are written as the proper interpretations handed down to us.

That's my lengthy take on Rageball and why the "poll abuse" topic is not nearly as cut and dried as it is on other game modes.
Title: Re: Ban Request: JesusHChrist
Post by: bigsean on April 30, 2012, 11:40:27 pm
I did state that I was killing this guy over and over, but I was not killing him from afar time and time again. As I said, I was using a horn bow/tatar bow so the range was limited. I only picked him off when he was whistling for the ball (running right beside a teammate with the ball) or when he was actually in possession of the ball (which was quite a lot actually).

Does that change your opinion grannpappy? Is that considered poll abuse then? Serious question, not trolling.
Title: Re: Ban Request: JesusHChrist
Post by: Rumblood on May 01, 2012, 12:22:49 am
If you weren't griefkilling him everytime he spawned, then I would say he had an issue with your playstyle and that is a "protected" item. So in that case I would have warned him not to abuse the poll system. When you got kicked, I would have kicked him as well, but since he had an x1 and could come right back (meaning it wouldn't have been a real punishment), I would have given him a 5 minute ban to sit out a round. 2nd offense would have been a long enough ban to take the night off for raging.
Since the event is over and not really a "cut and dried" deal, he is on the watch list. I know that doesn't mean much to you now having lost the x5, but functionally it means he would go past the warning/kick/5 minute ban phase next time and straight to taking the night or 24 hours off. In addition, he would stay on the watchlist (it isn't easy to get off of it once you are on) and additional bans would continue to escalate.

I do wish that kicks took 55-60% to go through, due to the "enemy team, press 1" tendency.  :| It makes it more difficult to say "Well the server decided to kick you, which is a rarity so you must have done something to piss everyone off." Low pop, the poll is indeed more subject to abuse.
Title: Re: Ban Request: JesusHChrist
Post by: bigsean on May 01, 2012, 01:56:23 am
Ok sounds fair,

thanks for the time grannpappy
Title: Re: Ban Request: JesusHChrist
Post by: Rumblood on May 01, 2012, 04:35:32 pm
Closing this one out, PM me if you would like it re-opened to add a comment.