cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Elmetiacos on March 14, 2011, 01:49:56 am

Title: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Elmetiacos on March 14, 2011, 01:49:56 am
Before the patch, half the infantry carried a "crossbow sidearm" which they used with 1wpf at close range. With the faster rate of archery we had then, this resulted in the game playing out like a FPS, with a big shooting match at the start, during which infantry cowered behind walls until one side or the other had won the shooting match and then either died or mopped up. I'm sad to see things moving back in that direction. Now we have the increased cost of high wpf, players have found focussing on one weapon isn't worth it and so hybrids are commoner, which means the return of the heavy infantry + crossbow. There is more and more missile fire and once again crpg is losing its mediaeval combat flavour.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: justme on March 14, 2011, 01:53:17 am
just reduce ammount of bolts and arrows, so there would be less spam
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 14, 2011, 02:16:14 am
just reduce ammount of bolts and arrows, so there would be less spam

Then I shall take three quivers instead of my normal two.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: justme on March 14, 2011, 02:27:16 am
and then u will not carry melee weapon..
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Tai Feng on March 14, 2011, 02:37:30 am
Let's eliminate all weapons but 2H swords. We all know that's what medieval battlefield looked like.


Everyone else should run without weapons so that 2H guys can collect kills. You are not allowed to have any Athletics either or they will complain you're griefing them and that it's unfair. :)
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: MrShovelFace on March 14, 2011, 05:40:58 am
seriously grow up dude. Cross bows rarely kill anyone in so much as 2 hits and cost substancially more than any melee weapon ntm the steel bolts. They had their damage reduced by 30 (all of them) and are less accurate and slower. Just because a few non - fotm people stuck with the build and repeatedly kicked your ass does not justify a nerf

and yes i have been head shotted by darkkarma more times than i have braincells to count but the dill thumper has almost 180 prof
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Kophka on March 14, 2011, 05:51:56 am
I really don't understand why people don't just stop at 3 or 4 WM, then put the rest into something like IF or PS or Ath. If you just use one weapon type, and want to specialize in it, 3 WM gives you 130+ wpf at lvl 30. There's no need to hybridize, really. If you think it's a "can't beat 'em, join 'em" thing, fast 2 handers and strong sword/boarders mop up throwers and xbowers all the time :D.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Darkkarma on March 14, 2011, 08:07:53 am
seriously grow up dude. Cross bows rarely kill anyone in so much as 2 hits and cost substancially more than any melee weapon ntm the steel bolts. They had their damage reduced by 30 (all of them) and are less accurate and slower. Just because a few non - fotm people stuck with the build and repeatedly kicked your ass does not justify a nerf

and yes i have been head shotted by darkkarma more times than i have braincells to count but the dill thumper has almost 180 prof

This is going in my play book.  :lol:
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Seawied on March 14, 2011, 08:23:38 am
seriously grow up dude. Cross bows rarely kill anyone in so much as 2 hits and cost substancially more than any melee weapon ntm the steel bolts. They had their damage reduced by 30 (all of them) and are less accurate and slower. Just because a few non - fotm people stuck with the build and repeatedly kicked your ass does not justify a nerf

and yes i have been head shotted by darkkarma more times than i have braincells to count but the dill thumper has almost 180 prof

Quote from: Karma chocolate chip cookie
An Error Has Occurred.

Sorry, you can't repeat a karma action without waiting 24 hours.

No +30 karma points for you =(

+1 will have to suffice
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Grey on March 14, 2011, 08:59:00 am
I think a major issue is fairness> Lose a swordfight, you can only blame yourself, get shot in the back and you are much more annoyed since you had no chance to defend yourself. This Breeds hatred for that style, and then people rage about how lame it is. Although, tbh, most archers play as archers because they feel their melee skills are good enough with  0 wpf in melee to be able to fight, so why not have the ability to also kill people at long range?
Problem is, this makes everyone else do it too, and it DOES take the piss out of dedicated melee chars. But They amde their choice too.

I was going to post today anyway about crossbows maybe needing a skill, like an agility based one, "Mechanical Knowledge" or "Practised Fingers" or something, that allows crossbow usage per level, like powerdraw for bows.

I mainly think this might be positive since I am building my very very very first non hybrid. Every other char I have (and there a quite a few) has some form of ranged wpf, or shield skills. But I thought, hey lets make the pure 2h. Being a peasant and lvl 1, I decided to go level on siege mode, you get more alive time out of your time when a peon. Got shot. Many times. So I bought a crossbow, 1 wpf. Its not like Im going to snipe anyone, but I can definitly start climbing a ladder with it, spot the archer at laddertop and headshot him with my 1 wpf. Dont really think its fair on him, he probably has dedicated himself to ranged, and I just bought this crossbow to be annoying.....
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Brutal on March 14, 2011, 09:31:28 am
Well i've just started a polearm/xbox build with 110WPF in xbow. Xbow was and still his the ranged class i dislike the most, although it s fun to play and feel a little bit like cs.

But i've got to admit it's easier getting kill with throwing than xbow. I do get some kill but not consistently, if I really want some kill i just drop the damn xbow and start flanking.
Than again you don t need skillpoints for xbow versus throwing and bows so i guess it's fair. I was able to do the same build as my pure polarm for a loss of 25 or so  wpf in polearm and downgrading my 9 armor glove to 4 armor glove and traded pike for heavy crossbow and steel bolt, with throwing or bow i wouldnt be able to do that. 
But really if you re going for K/D ratio the easiest path IMO is melee. 
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: MouthnHoof on March 14, 2011, 09:56:58 am
The problematic hybrids are melee/ranged - mainly xbow & throwing as the secondary. Hybrids of 1H/2H/pole do not cause any problems and are even welcomed. Dedicated xbow/archer/throwers are not a problem.

What happens is that there is absolutely no reason not to carry an xbow. Even with poor accuracy of low wpf, you get a chance at some cheap kills at little risk - so why not? The thing is that it is bad bad BAD to gameplay. Beyond a critical mass of ranges weapons, the game turns into a FPS. I played on EU1 the other day and was appalled. In every frame I sent the first two minutes idling till the throwers have spent most of their ammo and the xbow hybrid my old friends took their cheap shots and came down from the roofs to fight.

Perhaps the only solution is to make two classes (YEH YOU HEAR IT RIGHT!): ranged & melee.
* If you choose melee you cannot put points into archery/xbows AT ALL and the cost of power throw is doubled (1 PT for two skill points invested).
* if you choose ranged the cost of power-strike and shield skills are doubled

The melee/throwing hybrids this allows are either a melee toon with some basic throwing ability, or a true hybrid for a very skill point demanding build that will hurt elsewhere.
The melee/xbow hybrids this allows will have basic shield usage (arrow cover) and cannot be block crushers. They can be true melee hybrids for a very high skill point cost that will hurt elsewhere.

The "what the heck, I'll grab an xbow as well" attitude must be stopped.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Bjarky on March 14, 2011, 10:46:03 am
just make xbow more inaccurate at low wpf, this will make it harder for xbow grabbers.
right now you only need 80 wpf in xbow to be point on accurate for mid to semi-long range.

PS. if there's gonna be less ranged people, you guys will start raging against cav ^^
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: GaenaralHONK on March 14, 2011, 10:50:31 am
just got one thing to tell people that whine:

learn to play.

you can so easily strafe around, doding any arrow/throwing axe/bolt flying for you head...
manual blocking is easy when you practise enough ( go try duel servers! maybe even on native!)

you just have to train...and actually i prefer light to medium armor with high athletics to evade better than pure str+heavy armor
plus it's cheaper
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Grey on March 14, 2011, 11:38:13 am
Hey I dont want less of anything, or a major change to anything, just decrease in accuracy of crossbows with, lets say, 1 wpf? I dont think this will change MUCH, maybe make the "cant shoot for shit" zone from 1-50 wpf? Also, maybe reload times could be slowed down on xbows, and make wpf over 50 allow MUCH faster reloads, so they are realistically the same speed for guys who have at least made that small investment (50+ wpf), but a slow and fiendish contraption of the devil's work that takes your simple peasants brain very long to work out to all the guys with 1wpf.

So it represents: Im not a crossbowman, but as modern 14th century footsoldier with a positive opinion of my own survival, I've been fighting for a while now, got some cash, why not spend some gold on a crossbow, and some time to learn to shoot and reload. So, crossbow + 50 wpf and you are decent as you would be now, any less wpf and you start to take very long to reload, and cant shoot reliably, with delayed release sometimes...etc
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Nemeth on March 14, 2011, 11:43:28 am
The "useless wpf" range should be much wider. You can get to 50 wpf by sacrificing, what, 5-10 wpf in your main weapon. I seriously think that crossbows should have some accuracy only when you invest over 100 points into them, or even more.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Halevolm on March 14, 2011, 11:49:14 am
+1 for 100 wpf for effective crossbowing.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Vibe on March 14, 2011, 11:55:53 am
Agree, there should be atleast 100 wpf in crossbow to aim properly.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Tai Feng on March 14, 2011, 12:16:50 pm

Quote from: Grey
Its not like Im going to snipe anyone, but I can definitly start climbing a ladder with it, spot the archer at laddertop and headshot him with my 1 wpf. Dont really think its fair on him, he probably has dedicated himself to ranged, and I just bought this crossbow to be annoying.....

I don't see how that's different from taking a Pike just to fight off cavalry.

So you use 2 slots for expensive crossbow+bolts, which (if you're any good at being infantry) you will probably use once per round. That looks like a bad character build. You could've taken secondary melee weapon instead which would help you 10x more, or instead of IF put points in Power Throw and you'd be 10x more efficient.


Where are all these hordes of infantry guys who take crossbow as a backup weapon? I almost never see any.

Quote
I think a major issue is fairness> Lose a swordfight, you can only blame yourself, get shot in the back and you are much more annoyed since you had no chance to defend yourself.

If you lose a swordfight besides yourself you can also blame shared connection and wireless, both of which can drastically reduce the ability to fight in melee.
If you get shot in the back, you can also blame yourself because you had bad situational awareness and/or bad tactics. Of course, to players with FPS mentality, losing because of bad strategy should not happen - it's glitching, griefing, unfair, you name it. But not everyone playing MnB comes from FPS background, I for one played Strategy games.

Quote from: MouthnHoof
I played on EU1 the other day and was appalled. In every frame I sent the first two minutes idling till the throwers have spent most of their ammo and the xbow hybrid my old friends took their cheap shots and came down from the roofs to fight.

That's exactly how the battle should look like.
And if you don't have a shield, don't maniacally charge at the enemy because you will get shot and it won't be anyone's fault but yours. Watch all good players and what they do at round start. They either flank, or they wait 30sec until throwers empty their ammo. Or, they use a shield.

Quote
Perhaps the only solution is to make two classes (YEH YOU HEAR IT RIGHT!): ranged & melee.

Why two classes? Why not 3 classes - cavalry included.

Quote
* if you choose ranged the cost of power-strike and shield skills are doubled

You forgot Athletics, because with your idea I would instead go for zero melee and 9-10 athletics. Just for the fun of it. :) And if you nerf Athletics be prepared to nerf Riding because you'll see a lot more of mounted crossbowmen. And if you nerf... you get the point :)
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Spawny on March 14, 2011, 12:24:31 pm
Agree, there should be atleast 100 wpf in crossbow to aim properly.

I would love to see a 100 wpf minimum for every weapon to be able to use it properly.

You don't need wpf to hit someone with a throwing weapon from just 4 feet away, you don't need wpf to shoot someone with a crossbow from 4 feet away and you don't really need wpf in any weapon catagory as long as you pick a fast-ish weapon. Longswords, katana, sideswords, etc, all can be used quite effectively with very little wpf.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Elmetiacos on March 14, 2011, 01:13:30 pm
seriously grow up dude. Cross bows rarely kill anyone in so much as 2 hits and cost substancially more than any melee weapon ntm the steel bolts. They had their damage reduced by 30 (all of them) and are less accurate and slower. Just because a few non - fotm people stuck with the build and repeatedly kicked your ass does not justify a nerf

and yes i have been head shotted by darkkarma more times than i have braincells to count but the dill thumper has almost 180 prof
Seriously learn to read dude. At no point did I say crossbows are OP; I said that there are too many of them combined with all the archers and that this distorts the gameplay.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Elmetiacos on March 14, 2011, 01:19:20 pm
Where are all these hordes of infantry guys who take crossbow as a backup weapon? I almost never see any.
I started to notice a few days ago the amount of missiles flying had dramatically increased and that infantry were once again moving back to the pre-patch situation where, in most village maps, you spent the first minute or two hiding and hoping your side won the shooting match. At first I thought we just had more archers in play, but looking at it again I noticed that there were an awful lot of crossbows. Once again, this isn't because crossbows are OP; it's because the steep increase in wpf cost means specialisation is less effective than hybridisation.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Tai Feng on March 14, 2011, 01:29:16 pm
I started to notice a few days ago the amount of missiles flying had dramatically increased and that infantry were once again moving back to the pre-patch situation where, in most village maps, you spent the first minute or two hiding and hoping your side won the shooting match. At first I thought we just had more archers in play, but looking at it again I noticed that there were an awful lot of crossbows. Once again, this isn't because crossbows are OP; it's because the steep increase in wpf cost means specialisation is less effective than hybridisation.

You made me go check EU1 now.

I did not see any problem you describe. I saw a LOT more archers than crossbowmen (as usual). And I saw a LOT of non hybrids, or at least people who in this game did not take any ranged weapon.



In short, you charge into battle at round start without a shield and to you it seems like everyone and their dog is having a ranged weapon. Make analysis of the weapons used by people on a server, and then we can discuss this further.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Duerkos on March 14, 2011, 01:38:43 pm
I am playing my first character and I intended to be a pure 2h melee. Went for 132 2h 104 crossbow at last.

Why did i do this? If you play any of the camping maps while defending, and you are only melee, you have to wait 2-3 minutes to do actually something. With a crossbow, I can fire to players going alone, or at least shoot 2 quarrels while the whole enemy charges and then switch to my 2h. Otherwise I do nothing.

Also, I suck at blocking, seriously. I am trying to improve, but while improving I don't want to be unuseful to my team, so I usually go into "support mode", trying to shoot with my xbow if i can (meaning there's no way I do FF) or going to help someone fighting in 1vs1 situation with my 2h. When I fight myself a 1 vs 1 I die most of the time. So even if I want to be a melee player, my ranged skills are usually more useful (specially if there is no cooperation from the team).

Even doing this, I almost never kill people with the xbow, I usually hit 1 player in the charge (firing 2-3 quarrels) and then I go melee or stay with the crossbow depending on the circumstances.

When my team is attacking, and there are archers at rooftops and such, I usually try to aim for them. If they don't see me/ fire at me I stay ranged, otherwise I go melee and look for some cover.

In addition to all this, it is very effective for cavalry. It doesn't usually save you from lance cavalry, but if there are HA and your team got none, that way I can do something.

I am not trying to say it should be nerfed (it probably needs more wpf requirement to be useful), just trying to explain why I (a noob in this game) am using it right now. And it's not because it does a lot of damage or its OP, its because is useful (specially since I suck at melee) and it's not as boring as going pure melee.

In my clan, we have some melee/crossbow hybrids infantry. Since we don't use shields, we have more weight free, we shouldn't be the first at charge... So I guess bringing a crossbow is quite rational.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Elmetiacos on March 14, 2011, 01:46:44 pm
You made me go check EU1 now.

I did not see any problem you describe. I saw a LOT more archers than crossbowmen (as usual). And I saw a LOT of non hybrids, or at least people who in this game did not take any ranged weapon.
You're comparing a lunchtime battle on a Monday with less than 60 people with my experience when the server is close to full. Yes, I dropped in just now and there were only 2 or 3 crossbows. It isn't always like that.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: MouthnHoof on March 14, 2011, 02:26:00 pm
You made me go check EU1 now.

I did not see any problem you describe. I saw a LOT more archers than crossbowmen (as usual). And I saw a LOT of non hybrids, or at least people who in this game did not take any ranged weapon.

In short, you charge into battle at round start without a shield and to you it seems like everyone and their dog is having a ranged weapon. Make analysis of the weapons used by people on a server, and then we can discuss this further.
(not directed at me but I support Elmetiacos view)
The problem exponentially increase with total number of players in the server (the absolute number of projectiles flying). I usually play one one of the servers with ~50 people, where the battles are much more interesting and the problem is not as severe. I do exactly as you describe - I wait till much of the ranged ammo is expended (boring), flank (assuming I survive the cavs buzzing about) and carry a shield. Then I play urban warfare: walk with me back to the walls, jump from cover to cover, peak around a corner and rush out of the other side - real fun... <sarcasm for those who did not get it>

No one is saying that the situation is unmanageable, just that it is not as fun as it could be. It's not like we complain about otther people "style". I bet my dinner that they the vast majority of casual xbow users just go the path of least resistance (Still waiting to see the guy in Samurai armor, huscarl shield, scimitar and xbow setup. Saw some who got close). I am also tempted to carry an xbow just to have something to do during those first two minutes, that I now just waste idling. With lots of showers and therapy I will be able to overcome the self loathing.

Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Phazey on March 14, 2011, 02:46:40 pm
I have both a light- and a sniper xbow. Almost never use them though... standing still and having no shield makes you a prime target for the other ranged classes. Usually i'm more effective behind my huscarl slashing my scimitar at people.

I regard the xbow as a specialist weapon that can be slightly useful when defending on siege-like battles. I don't get what the whine is about.

My advice? Get a decent shield...  :wink:
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Brutal on March 14, 2011, 03:57:51 pm
Usually i'm more effective behind my huscarl slashing my scimitar at people.
This, xbow just grimp you most of the time, so let people play pew pew if they have fun doing it and learn to flank them

My advice? Get a decent shield...  :wink:
Or just dodge if you don't have one, it is pretty effective.

Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Christo on March 14, 2011, 05:16:10 pm
Or just dodge if you don't have one, it is pretty effective.

Not good enough. A good Crossbowman will laugh at you, and when you start dodging like crazy and you need to stop because you forgot where you are going now, he will pull the trigger.
They can simply lock-on to you and wait.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Elmetiacos on March 14, 2011, 05:19:35 pm
I do dodge (bows anyway) and I do sometimes go with a shield. I'm not complaining about getting shot. I expect to get shot. But things are now close to where we were with crossbows before the patch - every battle feels more like modern, or at least Napoleonic era, combat because of the massive amounts of shooting going on. It will never be quite as bad because bows are slower now, but nevertheless the end result of the increased wpf cost has been more hybrids which has meant a lot more crossbows, which means less talking, more raiding fighting, more shooting.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Prpavi on March 14, 2011, 05:51:53 pm
Well because of mr. Tai-Its a valid tactic-Feng and alikes that wont drop their ranged in all their generations atleast to try something else i shall also be an xbowmen once again my next gen.

Just dont have the patience to fight in the shadows or run around the furthest corners of the maps to avoid the barrage of arrows with probably 50/50 maybe less chance of sucession.

Fuck it im a quitter, props to few pure melee guys still on the field getting good scores, youre exeptional players in my book and probably the best ones on the servers, i just dont have the nerves to suck in arrows all the time.

Ill grind 5 more mil. try to have as much fun as possible with my Maul, but after playing sunday for about 6-7 hrs in witch there were 7 (i counted) draws, i really need a break from the game.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Nogar on March 14, 2011, 06:13:53 pm
mehh... pure 2h is boring
atleast for me ):

i dont really care about ranged now, and i never cared...
also i usually have one character for every weapon, so
the only complain i have is against crushtrough
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Engine on March 14, 2011, 06:48:37 pm
Funny, I was experimenting just today with the Character Calculator, tinkering with a hypothetical 1h/shield/archer hybrid, and ran into the same issue with lack of skill points. So, I dump 6 points in archery for 0 in xbow, throw 80 WPF or so in there, and I'm done with my char, with 6 extra skill points to spend!

The system is flawed.

No weapon should be as useful as xbows currently are at 0 WPF and 0 skills invested.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Thtb on March 14, 2011, 06:50:01 pm
I would find a more "useless" no-skill cross bowing and a maybe  more useful skillful cross bowing a good step...

You know, so people with 0 crossbow/archer skill actually are nearly useless, while those who highly focus (and create natural weaknesses in other areas, like me lee or speed) are the real ranged damage dealers.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 14, 2011, 07:08:31 pm
I do dodge (bows anyway) and I do sometimes go with a shield. I'm not complaining about getting shot. I expect to get shot. But things are now close to where we were with crossbows before the patch - every battle feels more like modern, or at least Napoleonic era, combat because of the massive amounts of shooting going on. It will never be quite as bad because bows are slower now, but nevertheless the end result of the increased wpf cost has been more hybrids which has meant a lot more crossbows, which means less talking, more raiding fighting, more shooting.

Most battles in the middle ages also had insane levels of range. Only hollywood has those stupid levels of mass melee combat and no range, mainly because watching melee is more entertaining.

Regardless, I would like to see 1 wpf xbow skill result in horrible accuracy, then higher levels of skill actually mean something.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Beauchamp on March 14, 2011, 07:36:53 pm
i'd like to see requirements based on WPF (and PD, PT, PS) and not only on strength. this would solve a lot of things (archers wielding huge weapons, people taking javelins without any wpf, infantry taking spare crossbows etc...)
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: IG_Saint on March 14, 2011, 07:39:16 pm
i'd like to see requirements based on WPF (and PD, PT, PS) and not only on strength. this would solve a lot of things (archers wielding huge weapons, people taking javelins without any wpf, infantry taking spare crossbows etc...)

Yes! This would also buff agi a bit, since more wpf=stronger weapons.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Kophka on March 14, 2011, 07:44:02 pm
I still support skill/wpf based weapon requirements 100%. Imagine a game where not every 1 hander is steel pick/sidesword, not every 2 hander is Danish/German Greatsword or Flamberge, Poleaxes are very rare, throwing lances are hard to find, and sniper xbows are virtually gone. Do it for balance, do it for variety, do it for justice!
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Tai Feng on March 14, 2011, 08:02:14 pm
Well because of mr. Tai-Its a valid tactic-Feng and alikes that wont drop their ranged in all their generations atleast to try something else

Stop trying to shit talk me. I'm not renowned for liking emotional outbursts.
FYI, I played mostly with pure polearms, which, last time I checked, were melee weapon. As a matter of fact most people remember that I played a LOT as a peasant with nothing else but a fork - when everyone else was running in plate. Perhaps you want to say that's overpowered combination as well?
I played throwing 1 gen only, to see how it is and have a bit of fun, and was testing it on alt very shortly. Pre-patch I had a (horse) archer which I didn't use for a long time because I found archery boring.

Now that xbow wpf finally means something I am a crossbowman, because it suits my roleplaying (Rhodok/Chinese), and it is what I mostly played back in Native, and I'm going to continue playing it here and griefing all you "honorable no-fa-g-chers allowed" people as much as I can. I will shoot you all in the back as much as I can, I will use my athletics to run away, I will tactically force draws whenever possible, and I'll use anything and everything that isn't against the rules to annoy all you "honorable must-not-use-this" people.

In medieval ages Church banned crossbows because they were so effective and "unfair" towards poor pious knights. Well guess what, I don't care about your Church, I despise it, and despise 'codes of honor'. I will use tactics and revel in them.

I'm really tired with forum swarming with people who want to tell others how to play the game and how not to play the game.

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Just dont have the patience to fight in the shadows or run around the furthest corners of the maps to avoid the barrage of arrows with probably 50/50 maybe less chance of sucession.

If you want to duel, feel free, there's a Duel server. Sayonara.

Quote
i just dont have the nerves to suck in arrows all the time.

It's called tactic. And being patient is about being tactical. BTW, every horseman will teach you that. Try charging a mob in the beginning on your horse. Doesn't work? Well guess what, that's because good horsemen don't just ram into enemy mob.

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Ill grind 5 more mil. try to have as much fun as possible with my Maul, but after playing sunday for about 6-7 hrs in witch there were 7 (i counted) draws, i really need a break from the game.

You played 6-7 hours and there were 7 draws, and that's a tragedy? Wow.
Considering the Master of the Field didn't show up, that also means people were fighting and dying (and not being hidden). Ah let me guess, unless 100 people on a server all die within a minute, in a massive frontal charge, the game is boring, unfair, and something needs to be fixed. Uh, no.

Quote from: MouthnHoof
The problem exponentially increase with total number of players in the server (the absolute number of projectiles flying)

That's true when it comes to crossbows, since in 10 vs 10 battle being dedicated crossbowman is pointless, while 50vs50 it makes some sense.
But let me ask you - if I had 3 sets of Jarid, and you were charging me 1 on 1 without the shield, what would be your odds of dying before you even reach me?

The entire point of having no shield and charging frontally is that you're at a disadvantage. It's supposed to be like that.

Main problem is: accepting the ranged playstyle as *equal* is just unacceptable to many. That's the real problem here - anything else is merely a matter of game balance.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Elmetiacos on March 14, 2011, 08:05:19 pm
Most battles in the middle ages also had insane levels of range. Only hollywood has those stupid levels of mass melee combat and no range, mainly because watching melee is more entertaining.
Did they? Oh.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Prpavi on March 14, 2011, 08:24:01 pm
Well arent we touchy Tajči, was looking forward to your bible answer but wasnt quite satisfied left me wanting for more...

Face it you will never be as good xbowmen as Dave, Ronald or Gnjus just to name a few so you and your higher tactics just might grab a bow and call it a day.

Now go on put your Mercs banner in a shameless attempt to rig in some x5˙s... oh but i forgot 7 draws in a day isnt a problem right?
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Grey on March 14, 2011, 08:34:48 pm
That looks like a bad character build. You could've taken secondary melee weapon instead which would help you 10x more...

Dont see how second melee weapon is gonna protect me from archers....

If you lose a swordfight besides yourself you can also blame shared connection and wireless, both of which can drastically reduce the ability to fight in melee.


And blaming your net is why I have never died under your blade, but your life has ended under mine many times, Imperial Guard Tai Feng, Im not trying to troll you, but since you cannot defeat my archer char in melee with your INF char, your opinion on both ranged and melee combat are not valid to me, sorry.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Tai Feng on March 14, 2011, 08:42:41 pm
Well arent we touchy Tajči, was looking forward to your bible answer but wasnt quite satisfied left me wanting for more...

Face it you will never be as good xbowmen as Dave, Ronald or Gnjus just to name a few so you and your higher tactics just might grab a bow and call it a day.

Now go on put your Mercs banner in a shameless attempt to rig in some x5˙s... oh but i forgot 7 draws in a day isnt a problem right?

Sad.

I'm sorry, all I could read is "My ego is bleeding."
Your entire post is mirroring.. and mirroring.. and mirroring.

You need a psychiatrist, not a computer game. Actually more of an exorcist, since you're primitive and malevolent.


Now excuse me, I'm going to have some fun with relaxed gameplay while your sensitive ego is suffering.

Quote from: Grey
but since you cannot defeat my archer char in melee with your INF char, your opinion on both ranged and melee combat are not valid to me, sorry.

I don't have INF char, I have a dedicated crossbowman char that has 1H as a backup weapon. And even if I had a pure inf char, I would still lose to a good ranged player, simply because he plays better and stats don't give you instant win. I see nothing wrong with that.
If you only accept the oppinion of #1 player in the game, you might want to send message to his inbox, instead of participating in a public forum thread.

But if you have a desire to troll, then go ahead. I'll be playing my crossbowman and whatever else I like, however I like, and everyone else can whine endlessly. I'm deaf.

Quote
And blaming your net is why I have never died under your blade, but your life has ended under mine many times, Imperial Guard Tai Feng

Oh and what the hell is this, the Night of the Living Egomaniacs?

I don't even know what's your IG nick, and couldn't care less either way. But I somehow doubt I never killed you, considering I kill everyone at one point or another. But unlike you I don't count it, the game does that for me (in form of kills and deaths).
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Gnjus on March 14, 2011, 08:54:58 pm
since you're primitive and malevolent.


I have a dedicated crossbowman

Better primitive and malevolent then a retarded piece of shit like yourself. You got muted numerous times for writing shit here and you'll get muted again, no worries about that.
As for the dedication - the only dedicated thing you are is a dedicated asshole who after ages in this game still sucks in every single aspect of it so you need to make up for it by trolling about "tactics" while you clearly have no idea about the meaning of the word. Now feel free to go and relax yourself by hiding among the trees and running away from combat, thats what you do best.....actually that is the only thing youre any good with, about the top of the crop when it comes to your "tactical knowledge".
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Tai Feng on March 14, 2011, 09:12:10 pm
Better primitive and malevolent then a retarded piece of shit like yourself. You got muted numerous times for writing shit here and you'll get muted again, no worries about that.
As for the dedication - the only dedicated thing you are is a dedicated asshole who after ages in this game still sucks in every single aspect of it so you need to make up for it by trolling about "tactics" while you clearly have no idea about the meaning of the word. Now feel free to go and relax yourself by hiding among the trees and running away from combat, thats what you do best.....actually that is the only thing youre any good with, about the top of the crop when it comes to your "tactical knowledge".

Gnjus, reading your posts is a disgusting thing in itself, and I have to wash hands each time I do so, but here it goes.

1. Your posts speak for themselves.
2. I got Muted only once, which was abuse of admin who I believe is no longer admin anyway. Either way, lying too much ha.
3. You can continue calling "fa-g-cher" anyone who disagrees with your way of playing. You can also continue to demean people, troll, and whatever. That's your mentality and your existence choice.
4. You're constantly insulting everyone in the game and on the forum. Unlike you, I only dislike few people, and even then don't post anything until they start it. So look who's talking. I believe you don't have a single post on the forum where you're not spitting poison on someone and trying to infest him.


All this coming from a guy whose clan has tag "my old friend" (not a coincidence) and whose nickname "Gnjus" means "slime / the despicable".

Now, by all means, feel tribal a bit more and protect your clan mate and kindred spirit.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Gnjus on March 14, 2011, 09:25:36 pm

Wow, im so owned. Too bad you read my posts on a regular basis, im sure you enjoy washing your hands after it.

As for the "muted only once" statement.....shall we remember the old forum stories ? Yoshi Murasaki ring any bells ? Im sure people still remember what a shitty troll you were, and still are under new nickname.

Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Nemeth on March 14, 2011, 09:32:37 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 14, 2011, 09:43:05 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

^
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Tai Feng on March 14, 2011, 09:54:30 pm
As for the "muted only once" statement

I'm Muted once every 8 months on average. You on the other hand should be permanently muted because all your posts are trashy Balkan insults and shit talk.

Look at your posts just in this thread - all trash. Nothing related to crossbow topic. 100% trash. Trolling, demeaning, insults. Pathetic. And the best part you defending primitive and malevolent. I think we both know why.

Quote
Wow, im so owned.

Mirroring. Same thing Moist did. Pure mirroring.

You see, "owned" is something you won't hear from people who are not raging egomaniacs. They just don't talk like that.
When I type something, I don't type it to "own" anyone. But you, you think that if you out-insult someone you "owned" him and are crowned in glory.


There's nothing to debate with you, because aside of argumentum ad hominem your posts are shit. So what am I supposed to do now, continue this discussion so that I can "own" you by outinsulting you? I admit, I am not better than you in that. You see, I'm not even trying to be. I'm not trying to out-insult you, out-trash you, out-ego you. None of that. So go back to people who share that worldview with you, because I value completely different things.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Gnjus on March 14, 2011, 10:14:24 pm
because I value completely different things.

Youve said it yourself: you get muted on a regular bases, nothing to talk about anymore.

Values ? Youre so pathetic, coming here talking about values. Trashtalking and geting muted is the biggest value youll ever have in your miserable life. Im done with wasting my keyboard on the likes of you.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Darkkarma on March 14, 2011, 10:47:04 pm
Seriously learn to read dude. At no point did I say crossbows are OP; I said that there are too many of them combined with all the archers and that this distorts the gameplay.

Agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Prpavi on March 14, 2011, 10:48:10 pm
Gosp. Tai Feng ovo ću napisati na "Balkanskom".

Neznam koja je tvoja situacija, koliko imaš godina i od kud si.

Reći ću samo da imam više od 25 godina, živim u Zg, radim, studiram.

U ovom topicu nisam jednu uvredljivu riječ  prema tebi.

Za čovjeka koji se voli pretvarati da je vrlo pametan i načitan koristiš vrlo zanimljiv i uvredljiv riječnik i riječi kao malevolent, mirroring i gluposti o egu ne prikrivaju tu činjenicu.

Čak i onom prilikom kada sam poludio i napao tebe i arčere bio sam svjestan da sam napravio stvar za Ban i bio sam ga spreman pokupiti, moja reakcija je bila ishitrena, impulzivna i da primitivna i glupa i zavrijedila je ispriku s moje strane no nisam psovao. Tvoj odgovor s druge strane je bio znatno drukčiji te me upravo ujerio u suprotno, TI ne trpiš sranja?

Pa ovako: ne trpim ih ni ja, nezam što si ti umišljaš tko si?

Ovo je moja zadnja komunikacija s tobom. Ispričavam ti se sada za onaj napad i to je zadnje što češ čuti od mene.

Ne izigravaj više interent heroja i psihijatra iz svoje stolice ispred kompjutera i okani se dijagnoza i ostalih gluposti. Shvačaš se malo pre ozbiljno i činjenica da si fantastično nasjeo na moju provokaciju, na moj maleni boc govori mnogo o tvome intelektu.

Lijep pozdrav i doviđenja.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Darkkarma on March 14, 2011, 10:50:50 pm
Not good enough. A good Crossbowman will laugh at you, and when you start dodging like crazy and you need to stop because you forgot where you are going now, he will pull the trigger.
They can simply lock-on to you and wait.

Dodging crossbows for the most part is easy mode as long as you don't follow a movement pattern, even then a unexperienced crossbowman will probably mess up even if you just zig zag the same way for 40 feet. Also, if we miss we are probably going to have to go into melee, it's one shot or getting ready to die/melee/run. Archery is a different story, but yeah.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Duerkos on March 14, 2011, 11:47:00 pm
The best idea from this thread is (in my opinion) the one saying that weapons need WPF requirements in addition to the existing requirements. I think that would be awesome, should this get a sepparate thread?

For instance, as we are speaking about crossbows, 100 should be fine for heavy crossbow, 130 for sniper, 60? for light crossbow...

If this wpf requirements scale similarly to the gold price, it would give the battlefield more variety. But it would be a huge change, so I want to hear more about this from veteran players.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Darkkarma on March 14, 2011, 11:57:56 pm
The best idea from this thread is (in my opinion) the one saying that weapons need WPF requirements in addition to the existing requirements. I think that would be awesome, should this get a sepparate thread?

For instance, as we are speaking about crossbows, 100 should be fine for heavy crossbow, 130 for sniper, 60? for light crossbow...

If this wpf requirements scale similarly to the gold price, it would give the battlefield more variety. But it would be a huge change, so I want to hear more about this from veteran players.

I'd actually be ok with this as that's around the wpf you need for both of the bows you mentioned to not have incredibly long reload times. However, if they were to do this, then why not take off the str requirements all together? At the very least they might as well nerf the repair costs on the bows. The way I see it right now, I think bows are actually pretty balanced. The really strong ones are a bitch to buy/upkeep and have ridiculously long reload times if you don't put in the WPF, even then they won't 1-shot any thing that has a decent amount of IF/Armor unless you masterwork or headshot them. I was for crossbows getting a nerf in the first big patch as I am against them supposedly getting a damage buff in the next upcoming one. I like where they are currently.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Grey on March 15, 2011, 12:11:59 am
I would like to see a slightly longer BASE reload time for crossbows and a slighty worse BASE accuracy, but a larger return for your spent WPF, in reload time, accuracy, maybe even in power once you go past 150WPF, maybe to represent your ability to upkeep your machine perfectly, taught string, strong bowarms, snug bolt fit, etc, from being a very experienced Xbowman....same with bows tbh tho, but I doubt this will be popular.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: MouthnHoof on March 15, 2011, 12:39:10 am
Main problem is: accepting the ranged playstyle as *equal* is just unacceptable to many. That's the real problem here - anything else is merely a matter of game balance.
There are no complaints about any of the raged styles (from me and most of the posters here anyway) when it comes to dedicated roles - the complaints are about hybrids the inflate the number of projectiles in the air and surprisingly, are not ineffective. Xbows are by far the greatest offenders because they are carried loaded and are used to shoot into melee from short range or as a shotgun in urban warfare style.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: IG_Saint on March 15, 2011, 01:21:56 am
There are no complaints about any of the raged styles (from me and most of the posters here anyway) when it comes to dedicated roles - the complaints are about hybrids the inflate the number of projectiles in the air and surprisingly, are not ineffective. Xbows are by far the greatest offenders because they are carried loaded and are used to shoot into melee from short range or as a shotgun in urban warfare style.

Xbows in close range get 1 shot and are pretty inaccurate when moving. Throwing is far better, it's fast, does high damage and is accurate enough at close range. I'd much rather play in a server with lots of xbows than lots of throwing.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Kophka on March 15, 2011, 01:24:01 am
Really, a lot of problems could be solved by using both str/skill AND wpf as weapon requirements. For example : Sidesword : 14 str/120 wpf. Jarids : 6pt/120 wpf. I'm sure we can come up with a balanced system, and it would really promote variety. Only have 75 wpf in xbows? You're stuck with regular crossbow or worse. Only have 50 prof in 2 hand, cause you're an archer? You get to use the longsword or less. Etc. etc. etc.

Xbows in close range get 1 shot and are pretty inaccurate when moving. Throwing is far better, it's fast, does high damage and is accurate enough at close range. I'd much rather play in a server with lots of xbows than lots of throwing.

I know you play in EU, so you haven't seen this, but we've got some really bad ass xbowers here in NA. They are very effective, because the points they DIDN'T have to put into PD, or PT, went to stat upgrades, or athletics, or PS, or IF. True hybrids, all they have to spend is wpf, with no sacrifice anywhere else. It's very effective for the cost.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: IG_Saint on March 15, 2011, 02:28:21 am
Really, a lot of problems could be solved by using both str/skill AND wpf as weapon requirements. For example : Sidesword : 14 str/120 wpf. Jarids : 6pt/120 wpf. I'm sure we can come up with a balanced system, and it would really promote variety. Only have 75 wpf in xbows? You're stuck with regular crossbow or worse. Only have 50 prof in 2 hand, cause you're an archer? You get to use the longsword or less. Etc. etc. etc.

I know you play in EU, so you haven't seen this, but we've got some really bad ass xbowers here in NA. They are very effective, because the points they DIDN'T have to put into PD, or PT, went to stat upgrades, or athletics, or PS, or IF. True hybrids, all they have to spend is wpf, with no sacrifice anywhere else. It's very effective for the cost.

I'm not denying that they're effective, but they do have pretty severe drawbacks as opposed to throwing. And that's fine, since throwing costs more. Once throwing has been nerfed/changed I think ranged will be pretty balanced.

The hybrid problem is something else though and for that I support the adding wpf to the requirements of items. That's just a good idea, that could solve oh so many problems.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Brutal on March 15, 2011, 09:18:49 am
I support the adding wpf to the requirements of items.

Sorry guys but IMO It's a pretty dumb idea,  I mean if somebody is using a sniper xbow with 0 wpf  how efficient will he be? Terrible accuracy very long reloading ... If people want to spend upkeep on a 10 000 gold xbow and be near useless let them do it, we re not in communist russia we re everybody as to have the same stats to use a weapon because some people can t help themself to QQ.
 
Same question  for an archer with 0wpf in melee using 2h or pole, you have a huge advantage if you re regular melee  but no that s not enough let s take his weapon away, blah...

It would only make some sense with throwing were wpf are not that important.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Bravadu on March 15, 2011, 01:24:17 pm
I think crpg is pretty balanced right now. Perhaps throwing is a tad OP, but they also have limited ammo. 

If you guys want to talk realism, I think ranged has been nerfed too much, especially bows. If you've seen Shakespeare's Henry V, you'd have heard of Agincourt. 7000 archers and 1500 men-at-arms (8500 total) beat a French army numbering from 10,000-36,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt

Imagine the rain of arrows in that battle...
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: MouthnHoof on March 15, 2011, 05:54:38 pm
If you guys want to talk realism, I think ranged has been nerfed too much, especially bows. If you've seen Shakespeare's Henry V, you'd have heard of Agincourt. 7000 archers and 1500 men-at-arms (8500 total) beat a French army numbering from 10,000-36,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt
Did you even read what is written there? The arrows did little actual damage to the French army and the archers ended up killing French knights in melee. The longbow has long passed from the realm of history into the realm of fantasy. It now rests there on a pedestal next to the katana.

Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Elmetiacos on March 15, 2011, 07:46:26 pm
It's not about balancing weapons by nerfing. I didn't say crossbows were too powerful; they are not. The problem is that once again we are getting the "crossbow as sidearm" playing style with infantry adding a crossbow to their normal sword-and-shield or polearm specialisation. This is causing an increase in the number of crossbows and distorting a lot of games.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: IG_Saint on March 15, 2011, 07:59:34 pm
It's not about balancing weapons by nerfing. I didn't say crossbows were too powerful; they are not. The problem is that once again we are getting the "crossbow as sidearm" playing style with infantry adding a crossbow to their normal sword-and-shield or polearm specialisation. This is causing an increase in the number of crossbows and distorting a lot of games.

The wpf requirements on weapons would solve that problem. Alternatively make upkeep cost scale with wpf for weapons and maybe IF for armours (just to give IF some love). That would be pretty realistic, in that an inexperienced guy doesn't know how to care for his weapon/armour and it would solve the sidearm problem, since less people would use them because of the price.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: hotcobbler on March 15, 2011, 11:07:55 pm
I just wanted to point out amid the WPF discussion is that crossbows were widely reviled during the Middle Ages because they were so deadly and required virtually no training to use well. Which is exactly what is in the game. Seems about right to me. :)

Quote
Although a longbow had greater range, could achieve comparable accuracy and faster shooting rate than wooden or composite crossbow, crossbows could release more kinetic energy and be used effectively after a week of training, while a comparable single-shot skill with a longbow could take years of practice.

The Pope and Vatican even attempted to ban their use (only against Christians, do whatever you want to "others" I guess) through a papal bull.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: OoberNoob on March 16, 2011, 01:27:31 am
Crossbows were made to be devastating at close to medium range but were not accurate at long distances due the the extreme acceleration over a short amount of time.  IMO the more a xbow cost the more accurate it should be and wpf should mostly count towards the reloading speed. It makes sense, firing a bolt using a cheap xbow with knotted strings and a rugged trough carved in the stock should not be as accurate as firing a bolt down, say a sniper xbow which would be made by a decent craftmen who made smooth mechanics for the tumbler and a polished trough.

Just my 2 cents take it or leave it.

Side note, crossbowmen were hated by the professional soldiers and knights back in the medieval era as well so I think we have an obligation to rage about them in c-rpg now.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Blondin on March 16, 2011, 02:35:54 am
I don't use much my crossbow in cRPG, but i have some points in wpf.
i guess it will be usefull in Strategus, as you can fight in Strat's battles only with your main. I can't imagine a Commander hiring me to defend a town if i'm pure 1hander (almost for an open field battle)

Hybrids may disturb battles in cRPG, they will be needed in Strategus with all their flying stuff.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Radament on March 16, 2011, 06:52:12 am
Introduce the awesome skill -----> Power Xbow
Problem solved
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Vibe on March 16, 2011, 07:45:31 am
Introduce the awesome skill -----> Power Xbow
Problem solved

Think that would require hardcoding.

A simpler solution is to just remove Xbow from the game, every goddamn melee packs one now.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Radament on March 16, 2011, 05:19:59 pm
mate , if is not crossbow , will be throwing (worse) . remove something from the game because it's the "weapon of the week" don't work.
maybe just increase str requirement , like 21 for the sniper or make it very heavy like 3.75---> 5.00 so they can't run so fast and pew pew all the way.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Rhade on March 18, 2011, 10:21:06 am
I think crpg is pretty balanced right now. Perhaps throwing is a tad OP, but they also have limited ammo. 

If you guys want to talk realism, I think ranged has been nerfed too much, especially bows. If you've seen Shakespeare's Henry V, you'd have heard of Agincourt. 7000 archers and 1500 men-at-arms (8500 total) beat a French army numbering from 10,000-36,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt

Imagine the rain of arrows in that battle...

I'm so fucking sick of the people comparing events that occurred in history/real life to justify game mechanics.

People at Agincourt didn't respawn, did they? Why the fuck not? Perhaps because if someone made the argument that "oh, people at the siege of Acre didn't respawn, so we shouldn't either," I imagine that would be BAD FOR GAME BALANCE.

In much the same vein, saying "herp derp x happened in history so it MUST be fine to implement" shows someone who's only credentials are watching the history channel, yet they know nothing about balance nor game design.

The simple fact is that once projectiles reach a critical mass, it doesn't matter how good/bad the players are, it's a wall of death as soon as you step out of cover in that range players need to worry less about ff in the sense that they have a much longer effective range, and their targets are much greater when you're looking at selection. Melee users can not "swarm" the same way that seven archers can shoot at the same target -- if seven inf attempt to all swing at the same target, they'll cut themselves to shreds. So the situation being what it is, and hybrids running amok with such easy ranged skills being acquired, that critical mass is easily achieved and the ranged classes dictate the combat entirely. If ranged players want to shoot it out all day without switching to their melee weapons, then a pure melee character can do nothing about it. The issue isn't necessarily that "OMGZ RANGE NEEDS A NERF," it lies inherently and intrinsically in the fact that the critical mass of range is easily met with so many hybrids running around, resulting in part from the ease of acquiring xbows and throwables. After this mass is met, range will always dictate combat as it's effective range and volume of fire is so great that nothing else other than a higher volume of fire will defeat it. This really is not that fun of a way to play, as volume of fire matters almost as much, if not more than skill of the user; once a critical mass of projectiles being shot in one direction is reached, it's much like a shotgun blast or carpet bombing in that it really doesn't NEED to be overly accurate to be effective. Melee NEEDS to be accurate because it's effective range is so short (literally only a few feet), thus limiting your potential targets to only one or two, forcing you to swing around friendlies whether you like it or not.

Also, saying "well, throwers have limited ammo" is a pretty weak argument; throwing is so widespread at the moment that the battlefield is constantly littered with throwables, and people can easily replenish their stacks rather quickly. People keep acting like this is a major inherent built in Achilles heel to throwing yet I watch bad players run around and continuously pick up throwables and spam them at melee players until they finally land a hit or two and get a kill. If they miss, they just run and rinse and repeat. It's rather silly. Range dominates, and this shouldn't be the case whatsoever, I don't give a fuck about how "real" some people may think it is or how brilliant they think their tactics are, Mount and BLADE (not Bow) is centered around a pioneering and next-generation melee system, and has a rather sub-par range system built in yet the entire beauty of the melee system is being thrown out the window because there are such high volumes of fire *everywhere* that you're instantly targeted as soon as you pull out a 2h'er by the unwashed masses, whether they're skilled or no, with 8 of them firing at you you're going to die. It's a pretty ridiculous idea to think that the meat of the game is impossible to really play because ranged is keeping it from happening, and the fact that xbows are so easy to obtain definitely make that more of an issue.

Range should definitely have it's place and I'm sure there are people out there who love sitting back and playing a really bad version of a ranged shooter, but I'm sure they would be frustrated if they were unable to play their preferred style (ranged) because melee was not allowing them to do so.

It's an issue when 1 melee based character has absolutley NO chance against 3 archers (when you try to attack one, he will simply run while the other two shoot you. It is impossible to win, period.) yet 1 archer has a perfectly decent chance to win against 3 inf simply by shooting at them, maybe picking one off before they get there and then just being decent at melee when they arrive. Or he could even just put his bow away and run non-stop until the other archers on his team shoot the inf chasing him. The ranged players have the ability to dictate combat and choose when and where to fight, yet if those ranged players have the same mobility melee players do, where's the flip side or the other advantage of NOT being ranged?

It's an issue when a group of ranged can force it's style all day, yet a group of melee-focused characters can never force their style (besides all sitting in a room and never leaving until MotF, which all would be kicked for), only hope that the ranged players are bad enough to let skill make up the difference. Ranged players should be a supplement to engagements, not the deciding factor of "who has more ranged." This would be helped by xbows not being so easy to acquire, and some WPF requirements on throwing, perhaps even a slot reduction to make people really choose what they want to do.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Nemeth on March 18, 2011, 12:51:30 pm
Ahhh, you pulled the "m&b is melee oriented game, so why do archers have any possibility to actually kill someone?" card. How cute. Then I guess you would gladly enlighten us why is it that it's pretty much always melee people who top to scoreboards? Even if it's hybrid, the majority of his kills are melee. From your post it looks like they should be hiding the whole round and then get slaughtered by ranged, thus not getting any kills.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Vexus on March 18, 2011, 01:35:17 pm
I bought this game right away when It went live because it was one of the few games I know were it was not just another shooter but melee could fight against other meleers as I don't like camping or using ranged weapons all the time, I never bought any cod or other shooter simply for this reason.

Now cRPG is awesome in it's way since your able to use a variety of stuff were native has you some set armor/weapons depending on the faction BUT there's one problem in cRPG which is jack of all trades and imo it should be solved as fast as possible.

Nowadays since it's possible a 2her can use a 2h weapon, a spear to rear cav and a crossbow or 2 throwing weapons to be able to fight in every possible outcomes with no problem (More now with the new wpf)

Slowly the game always turns who camps on roofs the most and I've been logging less because of this. I don't want to have to hide half the round because more then half of the group decides it's fun going for 5 rounds on roofs and destroying every time all the ladders even attackers ladders so no one can reach them while they can own your team with no trouble.

Imo there needs to be some drastic change, some may like it some don't I don't think jack of all trades was the point of the mod but atm it is no matter what you say almost everyone has a xbow nowadays.

There has been some suggestions on WPF requirement but imo with the new wpf this can be useless as I'm sure they wouldn't make most of them 120 wpf or more but it's a good start on limiting people that have a weapon for every possible fight with no visible penalty.

Also making certain weapons AND ranged weapons use 2 slots would really help too, say making xbow using 2 slots x guy has to either use 2 stack of bolts but no melee weapon or 1 stack of bolts and 1 melee weapon making it possible for some of the possible roles to counter him as he has to either use a pike or a melee weapon which many would go for the melee weapon because they want to kill not be support.

Armor AND weapons needs a change in the requirements too many weapons have simply too low requirements and imo high tier weapons should need more strength and blunt weapons much more limiting their wpf amount since less weapon master + if wpf requirement is added it would limit these jack of all trades.

I know some won't agree but this is my opinion and seeing from this thread some think like me.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Elmetiacos on March 18, 2011, 02:05:28 pm
Maybe higher Str crossbows should need a cranequin or a windlass using a slot - as compensation, this would let them be used on horseback. I still think matters would be improved if crossbows became unloaded when you put them away - as things are now they are functionally guns rather than crossbows.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Casimir on March 18, 2011, 02:58:16 pm
Decided that First person makes this game atleast 100% more epic. Shit is just so much crazier. I suggest first person only servers so we can all plat M&B: CS:S!
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Prpavi on March 18, 2011, 09:42:57 pm
Well one solution also would be to add the expanding recticle like archers have but say it kicks in after 5-7 seconds due to arm fatigue and that time and speed of expansion would depent on the weight of the armour.

also there really needs to be some requirement liike power draw or wpf.

xbow is a common second slot now and way too effective at 1 wpf.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Thtb on March 18, 2011, 09:59:07 pm
Ranged weapons are just inbalanced at this point... 1 wpf + some power throw = instant kill axes/ranged
Bow, 150 wpf + complete build focused on it = needs several hits.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Darkkarma on March 18, 2011, 10:06:03 pm
Well one solution also would be to add the expanding recticle like archers have but say it kicks in after 5-7 seconds due to arm fatigue and that time and speed of expansion would depent on the weight of the armour.

also there really needs to be some requirement liike power draw or wpf.

xbow is a common second slot now and way too effective at 1 wpf.


getting the occasional kill with an xbow at wpf doesn't make it OP. I could do the same thing in battle with a melee weapon after I starta  new gen. What I can't do however, is kill consistently with it. I don't think most people can for that matter, save a few really skilled players
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Rhade on March 19, 2011, 03:19:59 am
Ahhh, you pulled the "m&b is melee oriented game, so why do archers have any possibility to actually kill someone?" card. How cute. Then I guess you would gladly enlighten us why is it that it's pretty much always melee people who top to scoreboards? Even if it's hybrid, the majority of his kills are melee. From your post it looks like they should be hiding the whole round and then get slaughtered by ranged, thus not getting any kills.

Actually, I didn't pull that card, I wrote an extremely well made, structured and informed argument regarding the status quo of cRPG and you completely avoided addressing my main points.

However, I will do you the favor of refuting your points because I can and will not simply "ignore" them:

1. I actually stated that I want archers(range) to be a viable class, and have no problem with that, or something similar to it.
(click to show/hide)
2. I've seen talented archers (Carebear_HarmlessPeasant and BkS_Vanidar) top the scoreboards regularly, and have watched them to do so getting the majority of their kills from their bow.

Saying that melee players "top scoreboards all the time" isn't really true, but let's imagine it is: Saying Michael Jordan can win a 1v10 vs average guys pulled off the street isn't a good indication that the game would be fair, because you're bringing in the extreme variable of someone extremely skilled. You have to look past the fact that good players are going to generally do well regardless of what class they're playing, but the point I was getting at was that once a critical mass of range was reached, that it became significantly easier to shut them down, and dilluted the skill required to be successful in this game.

When looking at game balance and looking at issues, you need to assume average skill level on all parts. You obviously don't grasp this as you're saying you "see melee top the scoreboard all the time," yet I see the same players topping the scoreboards all the time, no matter what class they play. When talking about balance you can't really bring that top elite group in, because they would still do well with rocks and a hatchet. You need to look at the theory and logic of things and assume average, even skills at all points.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Nemeth on March 19, 2011, 03:33:43 am
(click to show/hide)

The only valid point in that is, that when ranged reaches the "critical mass", it get's annyoing and very uncomfortable for melee people. The rest is just pile of crap, biased comparsions trying to make melee inf look unplayable when there are archers around. To that, my response was that even with all the range shit flying through the air,  melee inf are still the ones at the top of scoreboards, not archers.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Rhade on March 19, 2011, 03:39:10 am
(click to show/hide)

The only valid point in that is, that when ranged reaches the "critical mass", it get's annyoing and very uncomfortable for melee people. The rest is just pile of crap, biased comparsions trying to make melee inf look unplayable when there are archers around. To that, my response was that even with all the range shit flying through the air,  melee inf are still the ones at the top of scoreboards, not archers.

....and the point of the thread is attempting to reduce that critical mass by making xbows not as easily accessible. Critical mass was my main point, and has an effect on everything else I talked about.

I made my points with logic, yours are simply hearsay of us needing to trust the "fact" that you say melee inf is ALWAYS at the top of the boards.

Isn't it just as likely that a few extremely talented melee are on top of the boards, with the average melee player being negative with all the range players being in the middle? Just as likely, just as proven, and just as strong an argument.

I actually think I made quite a few solid points in that post, but take it as you will: the fact remains that range is far too effective and accessible, especially after critical mass is achieved. At this point, skill becomes less important than "how much range do you have?"
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: IG_Saint on March 19, 2011, 03:40:40 am
The only valid point in that is, that when ranged reaches the "critical mass", it get's annyoing and very uncomfortable for melee people. The rest is just pile of crap, biased comparsions trying to make melee inf look unplayable when there are archers around. To that, my response was that even with all the range shit flying through the air,  melee inf are still the ones at the top of scoreboards, not archers.

Often it's not the ranged that kills you, it's the melee that swings at you while you're still stunned from the ranged. That's why range tends to top scoreboards less. Doesn't make them any less deadly. I have to agree with you on Rhade's post though.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Rhade on March 19, 2011, 03:50:11 am
Often it's not the ranged that kills you, it's the melee that swings at you while you're still stunned from the ranged. That's why range tends to top scoreboards less. Doesn't make them any less deadly.

Very true. Not to mention the deaths from focusing entirely on trying to live through projectiles and having no more attention to give to anything else. It's not their one-shot stopping power that is the issue, it's their supreme effect on the battle even if they don't get 200 kills per round.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Nemeth on March 19, 2011, 04:15:05 am
I never said that melee tops the scoreboards all the time. I said most of the time. As well as I never said that only good melee tops the scoreboards, so I don't really understand why you spend the time writing your response to something that wasn't said, bah, it wasn't even implied.
I don't know how it's on NA, but what I said is true for EU. If you don't believe me, just go play EU for few maps and see what class is regulary in the first places on scoreboards.
As for the "solid points" you believe you made... Well since you believe them, there is no point in pointing out why they are not solid, wouldn't help anything.

@IG_Saint - Yes, that's true and I agree. But by no means is range a supreme force.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Vexus on March 19, 2011, 11:06:32 am
Melee might be on the top score more than archers but if you look at their backs you will see either a bow, a lovely crossbow or some throwing weapons and I'm sure the point of the thread is this not that rangers are killing from range.

Everyone can use a ranged weapon with ease atm thanks to the new wpf be it a crossbow or throwings.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 19, 2011, 03:40:25 pm
Coming from a dedicated archer as my main, I am going to say that there is too much range atm. I would like to see less xbow sidearms, and less thrown. As for the archers, I am mostly fine with the amount in NA, though EU sometimes gets to be nuts with the level of archers there.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Siiem on March 19, 2011, 03:55:09 pm
melee inf are still the ones at the top of scoreboards, not archers.

Thats not a valid arguement either... I mean honestly. Cavalry are allso topping the scoreboards so are xbowers. Seen some archers aswell topping the scoreboard.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Nemeth on March 19, 2011, 04:13:40 pm
Well how you wanna measure it then? Let's put it this way then. Having someone like Tommy, who is arguably one of the best cavalry on EU, is game changing, and there is quite a chance that his team is gonna win if the map is at least remotely suited for cav. Having someone like Phyrex on your team is the same case. And there are more players both cav and melee that can and are able to turn the tides easily. What about ranged then? There is only one crossbowman that can make a difference like those guys, and that is DaveUKR, and even he is not that effective when it's raining in game. For archers, I don't think there is any that can have that significant impact on the game. IMO Jambi and Bambi are one of the best EU archers an none of them can really affect the game. Yes, they are annyoing, and they can get kills and help other melee guys get easy kills, but they are never as dangerous as equally skilled cav or melee.
What I'm trying to say is, that ranged defintely has much higher annyoing factor, but that's it. They are not as dangerous and they will not one shot you, usually not even two shot you unless you're cloth wearing peasant. If you wanna reduce crossbows as sidearms, go ahead and make wpf restrictions for weapons. But I don't think that will stop the crying.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Jambi on March 20, 2011, 01:50:55 am
Ranged weapons are just inbalanced at this point... 1 wpf + some power throw = instant kill axes/ranged
Bow, 150 wpf + complete build focused on it = needs several hits.

This
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Rhade on March 20, 2011, 02:36:28 am
Well how you wanna measure it then? Let's put it this way then. Having someone like Tommy, who is arguably one of the best cavalry on EU, is game changing, and there is quite a chance that his team is gonna win if the map is at least remotely suited for cav. Having someone like Phyrex on your team is the same case. And there are more players both cav and melee that can and are able to turn the tides easily. What about ranged then? There is only one crossbowman that can make a difference like those guys, and that is DaveUKR, and even he is not that effective when it's raining in game. For archers, I don't think there is any that can have that significant impact on the game. IMO Jambi and Bambi are one of the best EU archers an none of them can really affect the game. Yes, they are annyoing, and they can get kills and help other melee guys get easy kills, but they are never as dangerous as equally skilled cav or melee.
What I'm trying to say is, that ranged defintely has much higher annyoing factor, but that's it. They are not as dangerous and they will not one shot you, usually not even two shot you unless you're cloth wearing peasant. If you wanna reduce crossbows as sidearms, go ahead and make wpf restrictions for weapons. But I don't think that will stop the crying.

As I said, you acting like KDR or kill count being the be-all end-all of balance shows you don't really understand balance or game design. It's not just about kills, it's about scalability and other intangible effects as well. I'm not going to spend the energy continuing trying to show you the problems and reasons behind them because you obviously either can't wrap your head around the issues or just choose to ignore them, using kills as your only criteria for balancing issues.


Coming from a dedicated archer as my main, I am going to say that there is too much range atm. I would like to see less xbow sidearms, and less thrown. As for the archers, I am mostly fine with the amount in NA, though EU sometimes gets to be nuts with the level of archers there.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Bravadu on March 20, 2011, 02:56:57 am
I am X. X is fine. Nerf Y and Z.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Kophka on March 20, 2011, 02:58:33 am
As I said, you acting like KDR or kill count being the be-all end-all of balance shows you don't really understand balance or game design. It's not just about kills, it's about scalability and other intangible effects as well. I'm not going to spend the energy continuing trying to show you the problems and reasons behind them because you obviously either can't wrap your head around the issues or just choose to ignore them, using kills as your only criteria for balancing issues.


Agreed.

Sadly though, K:D is the only method we've been given of measuring battlefield effectiveness. You may personally know how many times you've helped your team win with support, rather than kills, but there is no tangible evidence, hence nothing to introduce in the numbers game that is a balance discussion.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Rhade on March 20, 2011, 04:58:03 am
Sadly though, K:D is the only method we've been given of measuring battlefield effectiveness. You may personally know how many times you've helped your team win with support, rather than kills, but there is no tangible evidence, hence nothing to introduce in the numbers game that is a balance discussion.

A highly experienced, talented and intelligent player (expert witness, if you would) and having him talk with other such players regarding the situation is more than enough tangible evidence. That is usually what forums are for, actually, but the problem is you have too many idiots giving opinions that they really aren't too informed so it usually devolves into a flamefest. Just because KD is a number doesn't make it any more or less "valid" than anything else. Balance is not about numbers, it's not that black and white.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Kophka on March 20, 2011, 05:35:18 am
A highly experienced, talented and intelligent player (expert witness, if you would) and having him talk with other such players regarding the situation is more than enough tangible evidence. That is usually what forums are for, actually, but the problem is you have too many idiots giving opinions that they really aren't too informed so it usually devolves into a flamefest. Just because KD is a number doesn't make it any more or less "valid" than anything else. Balance is not about numbers, it's not that black and white.

Without numbers, it's merely opinion, "I feel that", or "it seems like". I agree with you that support is just as, or more, important than k:d ratio, and should be included in balance planning, but facts are facts, and opinions are subjective.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Gorath on March 20, 2011, 05:38:59 am
Balance is not entirely about numbers

Fixed that for ya bud.   :wink:  At it's heart balance is truly about math and figures, however KDR as you said is not the end-all-be-all as it's simply one variable to take into account.

The thing about ranged is that it's a player mentality.  Yup, I carry an x-bow around nowadays.  I put a significant amount of wpf into it as well (130 min, 160 max depending on which toon I'm on).  So in essence I am part of the "range excess" problem.  However the reason I have done this is because I'm tired of other ranged bitches camping stupid areas and either forcing me to hide, run in crazy circles hoping I don't get shot to shit in the time it takes to get to melee range (where they have the option to just pull out a random 2h/polearm and fight just as well as someone spec'd for melee), or be shielder #18928479874982749579287495874 with a side katana.  Same with cavalry.  And HA's.  So it's a situation of might as well join them so that when my team is cowering behind cover while thousands of projectiles rain down upon us with horse bastards circling like sharks I can at least DO something, IE:  shoot back.

I go some rounds without my x-bow (mostly to avoid the insane upkeep cost when it breaks) and even if I'm alive by the end of the round I'll have 2-3+ arrows/javelins/etc in my body with no health left and maybe a kill or two because the entire round was spent just TRYING to GET into melee range.  Fuck that, I'd rather shoot back.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Rhade on March 20, 2011, 12:24:31 pm
Fixed that for ya bud.   :wink:  At it's heart balance is truly about math and figures, however KDR as you said is not the end-all-be-all as it's simply one variable to take into account.

The thing about ranged is that it's a player mentality.  Yup, I carry an x-bow around nowadays.  I put a significant amount of wpf into it as well (130 min, 160 max depending on which toon I'm on).  So in essence I am part of the "range excess" problem.  However the reason I have done this is because I'm tired of other ranged bitches camping stupid areas and either forcing me to hide, run in crazy circles hoping I don't get shot to shit in the time it takes to get to melee range (where they have the option to just pull out a random 2h/polearm and fight just as well as someone spec'd for melee), or be shielder #18928479874982749579287495874 with a side katana.  Same with cavalry.  And HA's.  So it's a situation of might as well join them so that when my team is cowering behind cover while thousands of projectiles rain down upon us with horse bastards circling like sharks I can at least DO something, IE:  shoot back.

I go some rounds without my x-bow (mostly to avoid the insane upkeep cost when it breaks) and even if I'm alive by the end of the round I'll have 2-3+ arrows/javelins/etc in my body with no health left and maybe a kill or two because the entire round was spent just TRYING to GET into melee range.  Fuck that, I'd rather shoot back.

Yeah, that's kind of my point, too. You're almost forced to go range these days, really.

Anyway, you can't quantify a lot of the issues regarding balance -- numbers are subjective as well, because you still need to assign relevance and the level of that relevance to each number. In reality, balance always comes down to opinion of some sort, but when you have the majority of experienced players saying the same thing (certain people will always defend imbalances when that imbalance happens to be their crutch or preferred style), it's generally an indication of a balance issue.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Bravadu on March 20, 2011, 12:43:31 pm
Balance is all about numbers. 5% here, 2% there. Not all numbers are out in the open, though. Maybe if we could display for everyone damage dealt/received instead of just kd ratio. Also, damage dealt by weapon type and kills by weapon type.

Having said that, it's my observation that it's melee that get most of the kills and thus melee that get most of the high kd rankings every game even though there's usually a sizable amount of ranged players.

Even the highest kd ranged are usually very good in melee and rack up a sizable part of kills from melee.

I'm starting to believe this is a troll thread.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Trippin on March 20, 2011, 02:47:10 pm
You must realize that range (from throwing weapons to archery), help to balance out two handed combat. A nerf to range would just compliment the already favored play-style of two handed melee; the reason most of you are complaining is because you fit under that demographic. Melee is definitely the best part about this game in my opinion (and surely that of most others), but other play-styles need to have a place as well without being completely gimped.

Hybrids really aren't that big of a deal either. They sacrifice to be a hybrid, realize that. They sacrifice not even in just stats or weapons and armor, but in combat in general. While they are firing range from a distance, pure melee can spend the time to get closer to the enemies and find more people to kill. A lot of kills in battle servers come from catching people off guard, and that's something that is hard to do from a range (killing them before they have time to react). Keep in mind that if they aren't using their throwing weapons or crossbow, then they are not being an effective hybrid. I understand that there are situations where range is "necessary", but those situations are more or less based on the map and they rarely arise. There is usually always something that pure melee can do that will net them more kills than someone who even pulls out their ranged weapon occasionally.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Sofa_King on March 22, 2011, 02:28:45 am
I love excessively quoting the same thing over and over again, even to my own detriment.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Elmetiacos on March 22, 2011, 03:19:22 am
You must realize that range (from throwing weapons to archery), help to balance out two handed combat. A nerf to range would just compliment the already favored play-style of two handed melee; the reason most of you are complaining is because you fit under that demographic. Melee is definitely the best part about this game in my opinion (and surely that of most others), but other play-styles need to have a place as well without being completely gimped.
That used to be the case, before the patch. However, pwnage as a 2hander depended on heavy armour, reasonably high str and high wpf and you can't have all those anymore. Look at the Kills table and who's on top now - it's not the old greatsword wielding tin cans, it's shielders and the better cav, depending on the map. The class that has been nerfed most is the two handed users. Therefore the argument that lots of shooting is needed to stop 2 handers reigning supreme no longer applies. Once again though, this isn't a moan on behalf of 2h fighters (I am no longer one) it's a complaint that there is just too much shooting and it loses the feel it should have; as 2h or polearm infantry you have to cower behind buildings, as shield infantry you have to keep your shield up all the time as you slowly advance under fire and as cavalry you have to ride around the edge of the map staying out of range.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Nemeth on March 22, 2011, 04:03:24 am
As I said, you acting like KDR or kill count being the be-all end-all of balance shows you don't really understand balance or game design. It's not just about kills, it's about scalability and other intangible effects as well. I'm not going to spend the energy continuing trying to show you the problems and reasons behind them because you obviously either can't wrap your head around the issues or just choose to ignore them, using kills as your only criteria for balancing issues.

You obviously didn't undertand my post. Try read it again. I'm talking about contributing to the team, not KDR. I said ranged is not as dangerous as equially skilled melee. If dangerous in your dictionary means KDR, that's your problem, not mine.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Gnjus on March 22, 2011, 08:11:13 am
You're almost forced to go range these days, really.

It has been like that since the early beta days and it doesn't look like it'll change anytime soon.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Jambi on March 22, 2011, 02:14:06 pm
If Crpg turns into something like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FVJ__rBFxk

i wont mind :D
If chadz could add the grappling hook, it be awesomesauce!  :P
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Gorath on March 22, 2011, 05:18:52 pm
If Crpg turns into something like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FVJ__rBFxk

i wont mind :D
If chadz could add the grappling hook, it be awesomesauce!  :P

So you won't mind that the only game to have a good melee combat system is killed by the playerbase's desire to gay it up with ranged spam rather than fight?

Seriously, the state of the game and the players as it pertains to the ranged crap is truly sad.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Noble Crassius on March 22, 2011, 06:04:36 pm
or be shielder #18928479874982749579287495874 with a side katana. 

So you admit there's a shit ton of shielders, past argument WON!

back on topic mass xbows would be annoying but I haven't really noticed it happening that much. To put it in perspective, pre-patch it was much worse.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: DrKronic on March 22, 2011, 06:47:32 pm
On xbows and throwing I have tried both high mid and no added wpf and I can kill very effectively with.......(I guess it'd be an *opinion* and I 'd rather the current view to prevail)

I saw someone say two hand got biggest nerf post patch, true, newstab animations, all around greatsword stab damage nerfs, katana meganerf, morningstar nerf COMING SOON BARMACE NERF made it the stepchild of Horserear shield use best horsed attack better not unbalanced longer axes/maces LOLearms  

I can top the charts now on any of my three pure melees(one or twohand and polearm) so that's balance, sorta(if I am basically equally effective, definitely more power in onehand/pole since no magic gears on those and can dominate)

Throwing is as easy as putting seven(or more) skill points in PT, argue what u will but ur wrong or an average player
 
Guess how  much wpf I needed to hit u almost everytime I fired on u last night
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Rhade on March 23, 2011, 12:25:28 am
Range having the ability to reach critical mass while melee is confined to ~3 or ~4 to an enemy is being completely ignored.

Guess it's just too advanced of a concept.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: EponiCo on March 23, 2011, 01:46:56 am
What do you mean exactly?
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Noble Crassius on March 23, 2011, 02:43:05 am
I think he means that an infinite number of ranged can target one guy while it gets pretty crowded when 3-4 melee guys are trying to go for said guy..but that plot fails when a single allied meleer (to the archers) gets in the way. Could be wrong idk he was pretty vague and offered no follow ups.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Rhade on March 23, 2011, 03:10:44 am
I think he means that an infinite number of ranged can target one guy while it gets pretty crowded when 3-4 melee guys are trying to go for said guy..but that plot fails when a single allied meleer (to the archers) gets in the way. Could be wrong idk he was pretty vague and offered no follow ups.

Made the point a few pages back, it's relatively easy to follow the implications and ideas presented.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Thucydides on March 23, 2011, 04:17:52 am
Melee has finite space to operate in terms of kills
Range has infinite space to operate
More range=more dps compared to melee.

Threshold of dps for melee is limited to 4 or so toons per person while threshold for range is unlimited, thats what he means by critical mass. This is why every goddamn battle starts off with range and then melee cleans up.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Perceval on March 23, 2011, 11:26:53 am
I wrote an extremely well made, structured and informed argument
its on page 5. just read the whole thread and that's the one post that said it all.
can't wait for next patch...
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Jambi on March 23, 2011, 11:33:23 am
So you won't mind that the only game to have a good melee combat system is killed by the playerbase's desire to gay it up with ranged spam rather than fight?

Seriously, the state of the game and the players as it pertains to the ranged crap is truly sad.

w/e pisses you off the most.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: MouthnHoof on March 23, 2011, 01:28:44 pm
The funny thing is that when laying face down with an bolt/arrow lodged in the skull, I follow some archer/xbow - the most common thing I see is the archer spamming arrows mostly interrupting ongoing melee when 3 guys show up and chase him away like dogs after a panicked cat. After a long chase and finally being cornered he proceeds to pull out his Bec/bastard/nodachi and kill all 3 in melee. Just goes to show that my old friend is a mentality, not a build.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Gorath on March 23, 2011, 02:06:55 pm
w/e pisses you off the most.

I said sad, not rage inducing or maddening.  Sad.  IE:  Pathetic, pitiful, something to sigh and shake head at.  Quite a different end of the e-motional scale.  Derpidy derping herp.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Gnjus on March 23, 2011, 02:17:53 pm
I said sad, not rage inducing or maddening.  Sad.  IE:  Pathetic, pitiful, something to sigh and shake head at.  Quite a different end of the e-motional scale.  Derpidy derping herp.

Save your keyboard Gorath, trying to explain something that actually makes sense to a guy who never played anything else in this game except bowman is a waste of....well.....everything. Let em enjoy their "awesomeness".
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Jambi on March 23, 2011, 02:36:14 pm
I said sad, not rage inducing or maddening.  Sad.  IE:  Pathetic, pitiful, something to sigh and shake head at.  Quite a different end of the e-motional scale.  Derpidy derping herp.

lolwut
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Rhade on March 24, 2011, 05:30:03 am
its on page 5. just read the whole thread and that's the one post that said it all.
can't wait for next patch...

When I saw you in-game, I was like "FUCK YES, I HOPE THAT'S THE PERCEVAL FROM KNIGHTS OF THE ROUND", I remember playing that shit in a Stop & Go when I was like... 5.

Epic win, sir, and you couldn't ask for a better name for a melee-based character.

/salute
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Zisa on March 24, 2011, 06:38:26 am
I said sad, not rage inducing or maddening.  Sad.  IE:  Pathetic, pitiful, something to sigh and shake head at.  Quite a different end of the e-motional scale.  Derpidy derping herp.

It's been rage inducing me since long before pre patch...
I still hate xbows. I hate watching certain people go camp the same spot on the map, every round.

Here's a proposal .. cut ALL ammo stacks in half.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: 1slander on March 24, 2011, 06:44:24 am
It's been rage inducing me since long before pre patch...
I still hate xbows. I hate watching certain people go camp the same spot on the map, every round.

Here's a proposal .. cut ALL ammo stacks in half.

+1 cause I always back Zisa
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Elmetiacos on March 24, 2011, 11:29:31 am
Ammo reduction will hit archers much harder than crossbow hybrids, who don't fire that many bolts: because they can fire any time they like and even put their crossbows away, do some melee combat and then take them out again still loaded, they don't have to.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Prpavi on March 24, 2011, 12:11:23 pm
cut ammo stack for xbows in half ill still have 14 or 16 bolts, more than enough.

thats not the real solution imo.

the problem is easy hybrid build with xbow.

we need to implement something like powerdaw as a requirement both for bow and xbow and with that points spent in pd lets say 6 or 7 just so you can fire off sniper xbow itll be allot harder to make an effective haybrid well not as effective as today atleast.

mind you i dont wish pd would determine wbow damage just requirement.

+ youll see allot more regular and light xbows due to high requirement for heavyer ones.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Gorath on March 24, 2011, 03:21:54 pm
cut ammo stack for xbows in half ill still have 14 or 16 bolts, more than enough.

thats not the real solution imo.

the problem is easy hybrid build with xbow.

we need to implement something like powerdaw as a requirement both for bow and xbow and with that points spent in pd lets say 6 or 7 just so you can fire off sniper xbow itll be allot harder to make an effective haybrid well not as effective as today atleast.

mind you i dont wish pd would determine wbow damage just requirement.

+ youll see allot more regular and light xbows due to high requirement for heavyer ones.

The problem with this is that unlike archery or throwing, a "pure" build xbowmen is worthless as it's the weakest of all the ranged weapons currently.  It's a good hybrid sidearm, but a terrible specialized weapon.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: MadJackMcMad on March 24, 2011, 03:26:07 pm
It's been rage inducing me since long before pre patch...
I still hate xbows. I hate watching certain people go camp the same spot on the map, every round.

Here's a proposal .. cut ALL ammo stacks in half.

You know you need to stand still to reload a crossbow, right?

I don't shell out coin by the thousand to fire one bolt per round.  I have a desire to play as a crossbowman, which means using my crossbow as a primary weapon.  Which means standing still and firing it as often as possible, and damn the chumps that consider this 'camping'.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Everkistus on March 24, 2011, 03:35:43 pm
Something like this? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0a9Ks3P9hk&feature=player_detailpage#t=100s)

Or this? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4NvgHSIs78&feature=player_detailpage#t=102s)
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 24, 2011, 03:49:08 pm
It's been rage inducing me since long before pre patch...
I still hate xbows. I hate watching certain people go camp the same spot on the map, every round.

Here's a proposal .. cut ALL ammo stacks in half.

Is that including you and your axe spams darling?

Ammo stacks in half will not stop xbow campers.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Reinhardt on March 24, 2011, 04:09:18 pm
No +30 karma points for you =(

+1 will have to suffice

Sadly. :/



EDIT: In response to all this, as a cavalryman, simply nerf throwing. I'm not joking. Nerfing throwing would help your "ranged spam" problem and also help gameplay in general.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Zisa on March 24, 2011, 05:05:20 pm
You know you need to stand still to reload a crossbow, right?

I don't shell out coin by the thousand to fire one bolt per round.  I have a desire to play as a crossbowman, which means using my crossbow as a primary weapon.  Which means standing still and firing it as often as possible, and damn the chumps that consider this 'camping'.

Um, no, you do not need to stand still, what game are you playing? You new?
Last dedicated thrower I did put all wpf in throwing. Big deal. You probably play on EU, I dunno who you are but sorry for striking a nerve there. There is at least one dedicated xbower in NA, not really what I was aiming at.

Hybrid xbows, well that's been covered - spend so much time shooting and not 'fighting'. Essentially people are playing as turrets. That includes hrybrid throwers as well. This was a problem pre-patch except the munchkins wore plate and satback with their xbows.

Since the theme of the thread implies that currently the game is suckier then it should be, and most can agree that ranged combat is the problem, I figured it was past time to make that suggestion.. again.

A fun way to play hybrid thrower - do not simply throw until you run out. Use the throwing as suppression fire so that you can close the gap and get into melee.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Christo on March 24, 2011, 05:25:31 pm
Um, no, you do not need to stand still, what game are you playing? You new?

Huh? And how the hell would you pull back the string while moving.

You have to stand still until your character pulls the string back, and gets back to standing position, and you can only start moving when the bolt is getting loaded, or the reloading fails.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Zisa on March 24, 2011, 05:54:39 pm
Huh? And how the hell would you pull back the string while moving.

You have to stand still until your character pulls the string back, and gets back to standing position, and you can only start moving when the bolt is getting loaded, or the reloading fails.
Oh so I musta imagined that bunny hop reload, maybe it was a flashback.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Gorath on March 25, 2011, 05:14:11 am
Oh so I musta imagined that bunny hop reload, maybe it was a flashback.
That is, in fact, your imagination.  You can jump in order to START the reload animation, usually to dive for a corner or cover while you begin to reload, but when you land you have to stand still in order to finish the other 2/3rds of the animation time.  You cannot keep moving while reloading an x-bow, merely gain a half second of movement while you start to do it.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: DrKronic on March 25, 2011, 05:28:52 am
It's basically like right about at the part in the reloading animation where your character graphically puts the bolt into your xbow you can begin moving again
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Zisa on March 25, 2011, 07:37:27 am
That is, in fact, your imagination.  You can jump in order to START the reload animation, usually to dive for a corner or cover while you begin to reload, but when you land you have to stand still in order to finish the other 2/3rds of the animation time.  You cannot keep moving while reloading an x-bow, merely gain a half second of movement while you start to do it.
How is it my imagination if you start the animation and are in fact moving for 1/3 of the reload time while hopping?
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: dado on March 25, 2011, 10:26:24 am
Something like this? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0a9Ks3P9hk&feature=player_detailpage#t=100s)

Or this? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4NvgHSIs78&feature=player_detailpage#t=102s)

very nice everkistus , now i have good move for tonight ;)
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: v/onMega on March 25, 2011, 10:42:11 am
Simple facts:

Archery needs PD / Wpf.
PD allows you to use high tier bows.

Makes sense.

Throwing atleast needs high PT and some WPF due to non existing accuracy (I got a dedic. thrower).

Somehow makes sense (argueable).

Now xbow:
No special requirement, no wpf needed.
Once you mastered to predict when and where to aim, you get accurate with 0 wpf added.

This just totally doesnt make sense.
Xbow needs the same req. system archery has.

@ Tai Feng I use snipe xbow as dedicated 2H, Nubert even loomed it as dedic. Polearmer...

@ Gorath
You ve never seen a skilled dedicated xbow man i assume.
Whenever DaveUKR isnt busy getting banned....he has 10 : 1 kd on battle EU servers with a 3xLoomed (oneshooting)snipe xbow @ ~ 170 Wpf and still is super effective as a 2h @ 70 wpf.

He is the living reincarnated fpsgamer...
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Vibe on March 25, 2011, 11:14:01 am
It's easy getting kills even with 0 wpf and no skills invested with crossbow.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: MouthnHoof on March 25, 2011, 11:50:36 am
You know you need to stand still to reload a crossbow, right?

I don't shell out coin by the thousand to fire one bolt per round.  I have a desire to play as a crossbowman, which means using my crossbow as a primary weapon.  Which means standing still and firing it as often as possible, and damn the chumps that consider this 'camping'.
Camping is not what you do while the reload animation plays out. Camping is climbing on a roof 20 seconds into the frame and staying up there will the frame ends or you get killed. Standard modus operandi for most archers/xbowmen. A minority of archers actually follow the infantry from close behind. Xbowmen that follow the infantry use their xbows as muskets. While still despicable and gay it is infinitely better than the "archer on the roof" - Wasn't there a musical with this name? ahhh no, it was "fiddler...", another annoying string instrument.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Phazey on March 25, 2011, 12:19:15 pm
All these roofcamping archers and cossbowmen are extremely vulnerable to good teamplay, a shield and a ladder.
Talk to your teammates and make a plan. Assault their camp spot. Fine a route that has cover. Deploy a ladder. Stick together with your teammates and rush them from behind.

The bigger battles (50 vs 50 or more) are a rangefest at the start. That's fine. Working as intended, i'd say. All this whining about ranged reaching a critical mass... just get a proper shield, flank them or deploy a ladder to get to them quickly. You are not supposed to be able to charge 50 players with your melee character with no shield and no plan. If you get shot trying to melee in the middle of the frey with a dozen ranged classes looking at you.... d'oh, next time fight in cover or attack them from behind.

Set up a nice ambush somewhere. Try to get a safe area to fight by positioning your own ranged teammates and sticking with them. Or fight somewhere where you have good cover.

And most important of all: get a good shield and high athletics. My main character, a 1h + shield cavalry guy with high althletics and a huscarl shield on his back for on foot does fine against three archers. Flank. Don't let yourself get outmaneuvered. And keep up that shield.

And most important of all: use teamplay. A squad of melee can easily rush enemy positions and cause havoc.

There is a lot of ranged, but there always has been a lot of ranged. There are less archers and more throwers and xbow men now. Maybe throwing needs a little nerf. Maybe not. About throwing being able to 'reload' endlessly: picking up throwing weapons on the battlefield means you must be directly in the line of fire, by definition, to pick up ammo. That is very dangerous and often not worth it. That said, i think throwing needs a little nerf. It's a bit OP, because it's very accurate with low wpf.

Reading Rhade's eloquent posts, i'd almost think he's right. But he's not. I play almost every night and i've seen the flavor of the month ranged classes change the last half year from lots and lots of dedicated archers to some archers and lots and lots of melee / xbow or melee / throwing hybrids. That's fine with me. I just hide behind my trusty huscarl, keep it pointed the right way and try to figure out a way to get to them darned campers.

It's why i always lug these huge ladders around. So i can deploy it, denying some archers a good roofspot and going in a rampage myself. When i get to those dedicated ranged players, they are often stuck in tunnelvision mode and i feel like a fox in the henhouse. :P
It's even better when my team figures out what i'm doing and rushes to help me out.

Really, ranged is indeed very annoying as a melee only class, especially in the bigger battles. This is fine. There are ways to get to them. Teamplay, using ladders yourself and flanking all work. A good shield also helps.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 25, 2011, 05:09:51 pm
(click to show/hide)

This is the most intelligent post I have seen.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Zisa on March 25, 2011, 06:49:20 pm
Tears....
Not everyone wants to lug a huscarl shield around and a ladder, or have to make an athletics build.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Punisher on March 25, 2011, 06:56:56 pm
The problem is that after the shield forcefield removal you need at least 4 shield skill if you want some ranged protection so unless you're a 1h+shield you're fcked. Low skill shields were good before the patch (i used to have a heater shield and it was doing it's job fine) now they are completely useless, they slow you down too much too make it worth and only protect against projectiles that come at you close to a 90 degree angle, otherwise you will get hit.

The usual round for me as a 2hander is hiding for the first 2-3 minutes, than charge in and get a few kills, than hide again till the roofcampers jump or the friendly ranged kill them. So from a 7 minute round, I spend more than half the time doing nothing. This is a big reason that pushes people towards getting a ranged weapon and with xbow requiring only some wpf it's easy to understand why it's the most popular.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 25, 2011, 07:11:26 pm
Tears....
Not everyone wants to lug a huscarl shield around and a ladder, or have to make an athletics build.

true, and very good points.

However, recently I stopped playing my archer entirely, and started purely using my Alt who is to be very specific the following:
(click to show/hide)

This is a STR based build designed not for duels but for Battle, it may not be the best but it is my "style."
I do die from range, I admit that, but I mainly find that personally if I do not charge in willy-nilly my life span drastically increases. Waiting for shielders to clear the way and create holes, and instead of being in front of them just be behind them a few paces back, seems to work very well for me. While dying to range can be very irritating sometimes if caught in a hailstorm, I can usually identify what I could have done to have avoided that death or at least have lasted significantly longer.

Yes, a 2Her/polearm build (at least mine) can be difficult against range, and I still think that the crossbow "sidearm" spam is just insanity, I also think that with tactics it can usually be greatly reduced for lethality.

I play on a TS with The Fallen Brigade, so at least we can communicate very well with one another, but I notice that when working together we have lifespans long enough to have an appreciable influence on the battlefield. If you are out by yourself even with no TS or clan to back you up, you can still "tag along" with an intelligent group and avoid moving into the deathtraps for the most part. Of course you will still occasionally die from a lucky arrow or a sniper or a "shotgun" xbowman around the corner, but more often then not you should be dying from other sources.

I am honestly enjoying my guy with no actual shield to protect himself from (The shield I only bring along if a select group of people are playing, as it always saves me from dying from a throwing lance, otherwise I ditch it as it is not needed), and the challenge is not over the top. Sure, it can be rough against range, but I also have an easy time (comparatively) against Cav, and still manage to die more often in melee or from a close-in throwing weapon then I do to bolts and arrows.

Or I am absurdly lucky. I don't know, all I know is that I believe I found proper tactics to survive.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Zisa on March 25, 2011, 07:27:12 pm
I was going to similarily build a plearm/thrower hybrid. However, as pointless as it may be, think I will do a test thrower and take loads of screenies documenting wpf, pt, weight worn, movement. Though the lol's are running around with throwing lances now, I suspect BkS shenanigans to prove a point.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 25, 2011, 07:53:59 pm
I was going to similarily build a plearm/thrower hybrid. However, as pointless as it may be, think I will do a test thrower and take loads of screenies documenting wpf, pt, weight worn, movement. Though the lol's are running around with throwing lances now, I suspect BkS shenanigans to prove a point.

The school of fish in blue robes with identical names? That group is amusing.

Regardless, to prove a point, don't use throwing lances and instead use Jarids. Throwing Lances can OS, but with a proper thrower you can one shot almost anything with Jarids as well, and you get twice the ammo.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Phazey on March 25, 2011, 08:02:33 pm
My 2h alt and my polearm alt both have 2 shield skill and use that big old board shield. That provides excellent protection against ranged. No need to go 4 shield unless you are a 1h.
Even then, a 0 skill wooden shield can save your but when crossing the line of fire, doesn't cost anything and is easily dropped when not needed anymore. Mind you, it breaks after a few arrows and you get shot in feet or head. That's why i go for 2 shield on my alts.

Also, only one guy among your 50 teammates has to bring a ladder. If you find that the other team is camping a roof, discuss this while dead, ask who brings the ladder and escort him. Storm those roofs!  :)

Going 'no shield' on open maps with many players on is hard. Still, many 2h seem to do fine without it, even on the bigger battles.
What really helped me is playing as an archer for a while. It made me look at the battles from a different perspective and improved my awareness a bit. Knowing all those good archer spots and more importantly their lines of fire helps.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 25, 2011, 08:06:19 pm
What really helped me is playing as an archer for a while. It made me look at the battles from a different perspective and improved my awareness a bit. Knowing all those good archer spots and more importantly their lines of fire helps.

That is actually what helps me, my main is an Archer with heirloomed bow, and plenty of practice. From all those hours of sniping, or the hours of moving with melee troops and running and gunning alongside them and providing close-in support, I know perfectly how to make my 2Her avoid the vast majority of snipeshots.

Everything I remember a player doing to my archer that fouled him up, I do as my 2Her and it works great.

To be fair though, a select few maps are crap due to unavoidable sniper lanes. I dislike those no matter what I am playing, but that is more a fault of the map...
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: EponiCo on March 25, 2011, 11:40:08 pm
I really agree to Phaz here.
It all comes down to choices and consequences. You don't want to invest points (that you easily have as pure 2h) into shield, you don't get good protection from ranged. But even 0 shield heater shield has saved my life from throwing lance/crossbow bolt in Fallen Tournament, not that it mattered much.  :lol:
You don't want to buy useless agility, deal with it. If you want to make a pure 2h without shields that's risky, but perfectly viable. You can die early, but when you time your charge right you make a few kills and sometimes you just press "w" and never let go until you bump into the enemy spawn. Noone can tell me that pure 2h isn't strong when I've been on top 5 on almost every map with it. In fact, if you don't accept that risk and rather hide some more, that's making ranged only stronger.

edit: I don't mind making crossbows more skilldependent though
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Rhade on March 26, 2011, 04:24:54 am
You just totally sidestepped my points and decided to just make your own, so I'm not going to give you the courtesy of even responding in a fair manner.
I'll just say you're wrong.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Darkkarma on March 26, 2011, 05:17:15 am
It's been rage inducing me since long before pre patch...
I still hate xbows. I hate watching certain people go camp the same spot on the map, every round.

Here's a proposal .. cut ALL ammo stacks in half.

nein nein nein nein nein
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: IG_Saint on March 26, 2011, 12:13:02 pm
My 2h alt and my polearm alt both have 2 shield skill and use that big old board shield. That provides excellent protection against ranged. No need to go 4 shield unless you are a 1h.

bit off topic, but I'm curious, how many people know about the bug that lets you shoot through the board shield from the front?
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Vexus on March 26, 2011, 12:17:29 pm
Not exactly a bug but the player holds the shield bad you always have your foot exposed if you move your shield down when infact it should protect your feet.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: IG_Saint on March 26, 2011, 12:19:49 pm
Not exactly a bug but the player holds the shield bad you always have your foot exposed if you move your shield down when infact it should protect your feet.

I don't mean shooting under or over the shield, I'm talking about shooting through it. If you don't know what I'm talking about good, I have alts that use board shields  :D
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Gurnisson on March 26, 2011, 12:21:50 pm
I don't mean shooting under or over the shield, I'm talking about shooting through it. If you don't know what I'm talking about good, I have alts that use board shields  :D

Are you talking about bolt penetration in general?
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Elmetiacos on March 26, 2011, 01:05:53 pm
...Set up a nice ambush somewhere. Try to get a safe area to fight by positioning your own ranged teammates and sticking with them. Or fight somewhere where you have good cover.

And most important of all: get a good shield and high athletics. My main character, a 1h + shield cavalry guy with high althletics and a huscarl shield on his back for on foot does fine against three archers. Flank. Don't let yourself get outmaneuvered. And keep up that shield...
Yes, exactly. This is what I mean about the game becoming distorted by the volume of fire. It's forcing a particular build and style on those of us who don't pick up crossbows ourselves.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Memento_Mori on March 26, 2011, 01:23:04 pm
imo, Suck it up or adapt
coming from a proud foot infantry that does not use a shield.

We all hate ranged , even ranged hates ranged but we need range or this game becomes one stale piece of rushing into mobs left clicking furiously without any tactic or thought about what you're even doing.

Of course that's what the majority of players do anyway.. No wonder the c-rpg community is having such troubles with ranged.
really now, stop whining play the game have fun.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Noble Crassius on March 26, 2011, 02:04:25 pm
Bolt penetration isn't a glitch it's part of the game.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Darkkarma on March 26, 2011, 02:40:41 pm
Yes, exactly. This is what I mean about the game becoming distorted by the volume of fire. It's forcing a particular build and style on those of us who don't pick up crossbows ourselves.

You can say this about every build. You don't play into a certain playstyle's/build's strength if you're a certain build that doesn't match up well against it in given scenarios. For example, you won't see me with a great long bardiche or swiss halberd fighting a sword and board fighter in a tunnel,stairway or any kind of close quarters area that those kind of play styles thrive in if I can help it. The same way you won't see me rush at an archer wide out in the open with 20 feet of distance between us if I don't have a shield that can provide the proper protection. If i'm in a map that is largely close quarters, then it is my job as a build with that disadvantage to suck it up and try to adjust/overcome that obstacle.  It sucks when you're in a situation that doesn't suit your playstyle, but that's how it goes alot of the time. We shouldn't nerf an entire playstyle because of it/because it is popular with flavor of the month players.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Thucydides on March 26, 2011, 02:56:10 pm
I was pissed about range for a while, but then i put one skill point into shield and bought an old board shield.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Beauchamp on March 26, 2011, 02:57:26 pm
The wpf requirements on weapons would solve that problem. Alternatively make upkeep cost scale with wpf for weapons and maybe IF for armours (just to give IF some love). That would be pretty realistic, in that an inexperienced guy doesn't know how to care for his weapon/armour and it would solve the sidearm problem, since less people would use them because of the price.

i like the idea (it could go to all the weapons including armor, horses etc... not only to xbows)

i even think this deserves a special thread
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Christo on March 26, 2011, 03:27:45 pm
i like the idea (it could go to all the weapons including armor, horses etc... not only to xbows)

i even think this deserves a special thread

Agreed, good idea there. It rewards specialization.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Zisa on March 26, 2011, 06:40:06 pm
Increasing wpf requirements.. not convinced that will sove the problem, merely make people re-arrange their builds. So esssentially you will have some give up the 'easy' mode, and those who allready put wpf in will be unchanged.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: IG_Saint on March 26, 2011, 11:06:55 pm
Bolt penetration isn't a glitch it's part of the game.

I'm not talking about bolt penetration, I'm talking about shooting through a specific spot on the board shields. I haven't actually tested this in cRPG, only in native, it just came to mind after spending a couple of rounds fighting a guy with a board shield. However since nobody has any idea what I'm talking about it's not really a problem.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Nemeth on March 26, 2011, 11:46:09 pm
I'm not talking about bolt penetration, I'm talking about shooting through a specific spot on the board shields. I haven't actually tested this in cRPG, only in native, it just came to mind after spending a couple of rounds fighting a guy with a board shield. However since nobody has any idea what I'm talking about it's not really a problem.

You can shoot through the low shield level board shields. With low shield skill, the "force field" around the shield does not actually cover the whole model of board shields. I've shot many people in their foor through old board shields in the past. It's not a bug per se, just a design flaw when the nerf of force field happened I guess.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Gnjus on March 27, 2011, 03:07:18 am
imo, Suck it up or adapt
coming from a proud foot infantry that does not use a shield.

We all hate ranged , even ranged hates ranged but we need range or this game becomes one stale piece of rushing into mobs left clicking furiously without any tactic or thought about what you're even doing.

Of course that's what the majority of players do anyway.. No wonder the c-rpg community is having such troubles with ranged.
really now, stop whining play the game have fun.

You obviously missed the subforum mate....this is the cRPG general discussion.....and you obviously never played this mod cause if you had you'd never post such crap in your lifetime..........i'll just focus on the bolded part: please enlighten us how does one have any fun by getting himself shot by dozens of missiles before being able to perform any "actions" at all ? You spawn, you start moving and then volleys of arrows/bolts/axes/javelins/jarids/etc start coming your way.......and even if you're lucky enough to survive all that shit (and you DO need an "irish" luck for it) then you get finished off by roof camping sons of bitches.......which part of it do you find to be "enjoyable" ? Please tell us so we can "enjoy" ourselves as well, kind sir.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Rhade on March 27, 2011, 07:58:58 am
You obviously missed the subforum mate....this is the cRPG general discussion.....and you obviously never played this mod cause if you had you'd never post such crap in your lifetime..........i'll just focus on the bolded part: please enlighten us how does one have any fun by getting himself shot by dozens of missiles before being able to perform any "actions" at all ? You spawn, you start moving and then volleys of arrows/bolts/axes/javelins/jarids/etc start coming your way.......and even if you're lucky enough to survive all that shit (and you DO need an "irish" luck for it) then you get finished off by roof camping sons of bitches.......which part of it do you find to be "enjoyable" ? Please tell us so we can "enjoy" ourselves as well, kind sir.

ITS TACTICS HERP DERP

/facepalm
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 27, 2011, 08:04:46 am
I am now playing dedicated in the Fallen Server as my new 2Her since it records what has killed me and how many times in a master log. I will go ahead and post the results once I hit Level 30 as it should present a nice spread of hours.

I am fairly curious, as I apparently have this "Irish" luck or terrible memory for surviving to get into melee.

Also having played against my old friend and spectating in EU you for the most part seem to make it into melee and score kills so congrats on your "Irish luck" mister Gnjus as it seems to have rubbed off on your entire clan. Thumbs up!
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Darkkarma on March 27, 2011, 09:17:23 am
I've also created a pure 2h build, these waves of archers have yet seemed to beak through my "irish luck". They only time they light me up is when I derp my way up the middle of the map. This is the same on the hundred man and 80 man.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Gnjus on March 27, 2011, 10:10:55 am
Also having played against my old friend and spectating in EU you for the most part seem to make it into melee and score kills so congrats on your "Irish luck" mister Gnjus as it seems to have rubbed off on your entire clan. Thumbs up!

Yes, we do that by spending half of the round hiding behind houses, in towers, etc, or (if we spawn outside the village) behind trees and siege shields cause if we dont do that we quickly end up pincushioned. Thumbs up to such gameplay, its the only one that this mod enforces upon people (especially those who chose to play without the shield and any kind of ranged weapon) - hide & camp so you may get a few kills. Awesome.
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Elmetiacos on March 27, 2011, 06:04:52 pm
You obviously missed the subforum mate....this is the cRPG general discussion.....and you obviously never played this mod cause if you had you'd never post such crap in your lifetime..........i'll just focus on the bolded part: please enlighten us how does one have any fun by getting himself shot by dozens of missiles before being able to perform any "actions" at all ? You spawn, you start moving and then volleys of arrows/bolts/axes/javelins/jarids/etc start coming your way.......and even if you're lucky enough to survive all that shit (and you DO need an "irish" luck for it) then you get finished off by roof camping sons of bitches.......which part of it do you find to be "enjoyable" ? Please tell us so we can "enjoy" ourselves as well, kind sir.
Note that he's a D'Haran and therefore not aware that it's possible to go more than 30 seconds without dying.
 :P
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 27, 2011, 06:09:11 pm
I am starting to suspect that the my old friend clan gets an unusual amount of range directed towards them simply because of the reputation that they have towards their view of archers and range in general.

I am noticing archers ignoring close targets simply to take potshots at those charming men in green, a sort of in-game trolling.

This is explaining the discrepancy of what they say and what I witness for the average 2Her.  :(
Title: Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
Post by: Memento_Mori on March 28, 2011, 12:12:41 am
Note that he's a D'Haran and therefore not aware that it's possible to go more than 30 seconds without dying.
 :P

lol whaat nuuu uhhhh it's impossible !