cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Spawny on April 05, 2012, 09:31:34 pm
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Allright, after spending some time in the duel server again, I got nicely reminded why I don't go there often.
It get's me frustrated to a rather large degree by several things.
One of those things is the difference in kicking ability between players with shield and player without shield. Since I'm a shielder I play most of my time with a shield and thus never kick unless I'm VERY certain it will be a hit (ladders/staircases/etc).
For some reason, you can't block while kicking when using a shield when kicking.
You can block while kicking when you're not using a shield. (Save the downblock)
This makes kicking for a 2h/pole without any real risk, while a shielder can expect to be hit when he misses.
My suggestion is to equalize kicking for everyone. If shielders can't block while kicking, others can't either or do it the other way around. Nobody can block while kicking.
I know it's a bit of a rant on my part, as it allready takes all my effort to keep my footwork right to avoid being outranged/hiltslashed and stuff only to get kicked cuz I had to step towards my enemy due to the short range of my weapon.
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I don't see it as a rant or rage thread....
Personally I think they should remove the ability to kick while blocking. But that's just my opinion (certainly not based on realism), but then again a lot of hand to hand fighting would include some forms of grappling.
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Some inputs:
1. Don't facehug and the source of your frustration will vanish.
2. Risky implementation, could either virtually erase the kick which will dull combat down more than it already is or make it an interesting challenge to succesfully land a kick. Either way, I disagree with the no-block part. Why not instead turn kick into a shield bash? It exists in some mods I reckon, which ones escape me however.
3. The kick is not as lacking in risk as you want it to sound as, and if I may also point out that according to you, the reason kick should be "fixed" is because you are too often kicked in the duel server. If this is true, then this whole suggestion of yours becomes insignificant and almost irrelevant as I assume the balancing is not based on the duel mode(which is a minimal part of cRPG) but rather the battle mode. In that sense, kicks are incredibly risky. Yes it affects shielders more but uhhhh, do I really need to clarify?
You already have a shield. You don't have to worry about projectiles and block directions. If you want to be able to kick while blocking simply unequip your shield and voíla, you are as free as a pincushion.
Don't complain when you're playing the easiest class in the mod, and especially not about something as insignificant as kicks.
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Agree kicking an blocking at the sametime is bullshit :?
Granted it takes some skill but when acquired ....... :rolleyes:
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Some inputs:
1. Don't facehug and the source of your frustration will vanish.
2. Risky implementation, could either virtually erase the kick which will dull combat down more than it already is or make it an interesting challenge to succesfully land a kick. Either way, I disagree with the no-block part. Why not instead turn kick into a shield bash? It exists in some mods I reckon, which ones escape me however.
3. The kick is not as lacking in risk as you want it to sound as, and if I may also point out that according to you, the reason kick should be "fixed" is because you are too often kicked in the duel server. If this is true, then this whole suggestion of yours becomes insignificant and almost irrelevant as I assume the balancing is not based on the duel mode(which is a minimal part of cRPG) but rather the battle mode. In that sense, kicks are incredibly risky. Yes it affects shielders more but uhhhh, do I really need to clarify?
You already have a shield. You don't have to worry about projectiles and block directions. If you want to be able to kick while blocking simply unequip your shield and voíla, you are as free as a pincushion.
Don't complain when you're playing the easiest class in the mod, and especially not about something as insignificant as kicks.
You are an idiot. It does not matter if you don't face hug they can manual block through kicks. I dodge kicks all the time and they can just manual block.
A shielder will never have range because all their weapons are short as hell. Not to mention all 1 handers glance for no reason at all. Target can be right in front of you and you will glance and it is not a strength issue.
Shielders are easy as hell to hit from the side. I had someone manual block a hit while I was directly behind them. Manual blocks activate almost all around a persons body. Shields are easy to get around with the crazy 2 h swing animations the game has and all that S keying.
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Either both should be able to block or none should. A guy with a shield still wont get a huge "advantage" because of the shorter weapons they usually have, and for the hoplites, well nobody in their right mind would complain that giving them some help with kicking is gonna imbalance them.
Also: lol at the "shielder is the easiest class".
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ADD SHIELDBASH NAO !
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ADD SHIELDBASH NAO !
I would rather them buff the kick length slightly. And make it so you can not manual block during kicks.
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Right, you start an argument with an insult. If anything, you're the idiot.
He said he kept getting kicked in the duel servers and I simply suggested he avoid face hugging so much. How the fuck has that to do with manual block? If you dodge the kick, good for you. If he blocks your attack while he's kicking, too bad. This occurrence doesn't change regardless of class so I fail to see how this is in any way relevant. Note: he was frustrated over getting kicked, not because he was super awesome at dodging them only to have his counters blocked. And in case you didn't know, you cannot block thrusts while kicking. Maybe you should learn how to play before you come start whining.
And all I see in the rest of your post is butthurt 1h. Cry somewhere else about how you lack skill, not in the suggestion boards.
PS: Easiest does not have to mean "most rewarding" to be considered easy. There's a reason why so many new players choose shielder.
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Good idea Spawny !
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There's a reason why so many new players choose shielder.
Which is not because it's the easiest class, because it isn't. Especially not for new players. They're best off with long, high damage weapons. New players who play shielders are just useless since they lack both range and damage and can't get any use out of the shield since they're not familiar with the combat mechanics and when it is and isn't their turn to attack.
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What is easier than not having to manual block? In this instance, I deem survivability to correlate with level of difficulty. A shielder will easily make it through the initial skirmishes of a round while it is considerably harder as a shieldless class.
I'm not saying it is easy to do well as a shielder, in fact I can agree with the underlying sentiment, it's goddamn annoying and frustrating. But the fact of the matter remains, easy and if you choose to not make an effort, you can. While the length of your weapon has no value because eventually you'll have to rely on how well you manual block and this alone decreases your survivability(and in turn, increases the difficulty). This completely ignoring how vulnerable you are to every ranged class, pikemen, lancers, 1h cav, HA and others.
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Some inputs:
1. Don't facehug and the source of your frustration will vanish.
2. Risky implementation, could either virtually erase the kick which will dull combat down more than it already is or make it an interesting challenge to succesfully land a kick. Either way, I disagree with the no-block part. Why not instead turn kick into a shield bash? It exists in some mods I reckon, which ones escape me however.
3. The kick is not as lacking in risk as you want it to sound as, and if I may also point out that according to you, the reason kick should be "fixed" is because you are too often kicked in the duel server. If this is true, then this whole suggestion of yours becomes insignificant and almost irrelevant as I assume the balancing is not based on the duel mode(which is a minimal part of cRPG) but rather the battle mode. In that sense, kicks are incredibly risky. Yes it affects shielders more but uhhhh, do I really need to clarify?
You already have a shield. You don't have to worry about projectiles and block directions. If you want to be able to kick while blocking simply unequip your shield and voíla, you are as free as a pincushion.
Don't complain when you're playing the easiest class in the mod, and especially not about something as insignificant as kicks.
most of this post is garbage, except for possibly the 2nd half of your 2nd point.
The OP points out that you can manually block and kick, but can't kick while shielding. Clearly something is wrong there. Why would they be able to block while kicking but you can't with a shield? If that's the case implement a shield bash. I think they should just remove the ability to kick while blocking.
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What is easier than not having to manual block? In this instance, I deem survivability to correlate with level of difficulty. A shielder will easily make it through the initial skirmishes of a round while it is considerably harder as a shieldless class.
I'm not saying it is easy to do well as a shielder, in fact I can agree with the underlying sentiment, it's goddamn annoying and frustrating. But the fact of the matter remains, easy and if you choose to not make an effort, you can. While the length of your weapon has no value because eventually you'll have to rely on how well you manual block and this alone decreases your survivability(and in turn, increases the difficulty). This completely ignoring how vulnerable you are to every ranged class, pikemen, lancers, 1h cav, HA and others.
What does not having to manual block help when you get killed anyways the moment you try to attack? New shielders are THE easiest kills and in addition they contribute the least to a team and are the least dangerous because of the lack of reach and damage. Only thing they would be 'good' at is backpedaling while holding right mouse button which does nothing for the team... and you can't exclude usefulness from the equation or the "easiest" build is a HA with 13 riding who's chilling at the edges of the map.
A long polearm or a 2h would be much easier and much more effective since you get to attack from further away plus when you hit that lucky swing/backslash you do considerable amounts of damage. Shielders are also the worst against cavalry contrary to what you say.
I'm not in favor of the OP though, it's retarded. The reason you can't block while kicking with a shield is because then the kick would truly be a no-risk move. When you kick without a shield you cannot block thrusts for a small while and you can still get your manual block wrong.
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I did 6 gens as polearm (3 w/Great Long Bardiche then 3 w/ Long Bardiche), and now I'm wrapping up my 3rd gen as a shielder, so I'll chime in on the "what is easier" debate.
I never really bothered blocking as polearmer, just wear good armor, backpeddle and hack away. I averaged a respectable 2.2:1 KDR and was pretty much always top 3 on my team in kills (I only play siege, for what it's worth).
Despite having a 6 generation advantage over when I started playing as a polearmer, I'm having a much rougher go as a shielder. Maulers crush me, axe users break my shield in 3-4 swings, my thrusts and right swings always glance, my light 1h sword always gets me stunned when blocked by a heavy 2h/pole. I'm lucky to pull 1.5:1 KDR on siege. I can't imagine how awful it would be playing a shielder with no looms or experience. Reach and high damage is the way to go if you are new to the game.
Back on topic, it's dumb that 2h users have the advantage at a distance AND up close vs shielders. Their swings glance less at all ranges, and they can block and kick at the same time. Shielders should have the advantage in toe-to-toe fighting, i.e. shield bash (when implemented) should be better than kick and 1h animations should glance less.
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Forgive for being vague but I did not mean to say that shielders have an easy time against cavalry. The complete opposite. Especially bump slashers. But once again, maybe except for bump slashers, lancers can easily pick you out and the worst of them all is the great lance when couched. You just have no way whatsoever to counter it, unless you carry a long enough polearm of course.
And I am not really sure if we are talking about new players using shield (with already fucked up builds, mind you) or experienced shielders? Please don't tell me the latter because you can't seriously mean that you get killed every time you try to attack as a shielder. That's just fallacious, at the least.
I can exclude usefulness because it doesn't fill a purpose in my argument. I explained how you can practically leech whole rounds without dying as a shielder if you want to. Shieldless players don't have the same possibility. Black on white, this is a fact.
Same regarding effectivity. If I was talking about the most rewarding class, I would mention these aspects but as I wasn't, it has no place in my argument and no support in yours since it doesn't address any existing ones in my points.
Whatever the case, this whole thread is one big pile of moot shit. Except for shield bash, that is worth looking into and has already been suggested a few times.
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And I am not really sure if we are talking about new players using shield (with already fucked up builds, mind you) or experienced shielders? Please don't tell me the latter because you can't seriously mean that you get killed every time you try to attack as a shielder. That's just fallacious, at the least.
I can exclude usefulness because it doesn't fill a purpose in my argument. I explained how you can practically leech whole rounds without dying as a shielder if you want to. Shieldless players don't have the same possibility. Black on white, this is a fact.
Same regarding effectivity. If I was talking about the most rewarding class, I would mention these aspects but as I wasn't, it has no place in my argument and no support in yours since it doesn't address any existing ones in my points.
Whatever the case, this whole thread is one big pile of moot shit. Except for shield bash, that is worth looking into and has already been suggested a few times.
What, the whole argument was about new shielders, obviously I'm talking about them. I even mentioned the word several times?
You can leech whole rounds without dying a LOT better if you have high riding. Or if you are [insert class here] with high athletics and just run around. If you exclude usefulness it makes no sense anymore. Okay, it's easier to hold right block than it is to kill people - of course, so? What do you achieve with that? You don't get more XP/Gold by staying alive. Not to mention that you can't leech whole rounds without dying. Bonus vs shield weapons break your shield in a few hits. People use footwork to get around you. Multiple people gank you. You get shot in the back. You get lanced. The list goes on.
It's like saying horseless players don't have the possibility of riding around and forcing a draw every single round. This is a fact! If you're being completely useless but staying alive, what's the point? Shielder isn't the easiest class for that but how does it help anyone? And how is it fun for anyone? Point being, want to be useless and not die, go cav.
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What makes you believe I want to achieve anything with these arguments?
Hahaha, I'm just trying to waste your time.
But yes, cav is gay, suggestion is gay and shielders are like those weak crybaby kids in elementary that everybody bullied. You feel bad about them but it's not your fault they're weak. Analogy is the key.
And you are gay.
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Just let us block and kick at the same time for now.
Since it isn't broken for long weapon users, it should be fine for short weapon users anyways.
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I fought a guy the other, can't remember his name. He blocked all my strikes and walked around trying to kick me, he managed to hit me on the 5th attempt(I hit the same time which he blocked) and then he headslashed me. Made me sad.
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Whatever the case, this whole thread is one big pile of moot shit.
No just your posts man.
You assume everything without knowing.
If you were just trying to troll the thread then good job. :)
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For one thing, the range of kicks is very low. You have to physically be touching someone for your kick to hit them, which means that the usefulness of the kick is largely circumstantial. You can't simply kick anyone you want at any time - you have to bait them into chasing you or running through a doorway/up a ladder/ect. Even so it's easy to miss a kick due to the fact that it doesn't hit immediately and you're unable to turn or move while kicking, which, all in all, means that it's pretty difficult to land a kick even against someone that's completely clueless. It's even more difficult against someone that knows enough to circle and use footwork rather than face hugging. On top of this is the fact that the window of opportunity after a kick is very small, which means that you must have a fast weapon and swing immediately to be able to get your hit. If your weapon is too slow or your first attack fails (which happens often due to some kind of weird glitch), you miss your chance and the enemy comes out of it completely unharmed. In fact, they might even take advantage of your confusion and dismay to deliver a hit of their own.
You can manual block while kicking, but you're still immobilized and vulnerable for the duration. It's a clear trade-off, and I think it's a fair one. In fact, it's so difficult to land a kick that most players (some of them good players!) don't even try. They simply ignore that attack and play without it.
The kick is best against sheilders the same way that spears are best against horses. It's a natural counter. They have short ranged weapons, slow movement, and tend to face-hug. Of COURSE people are going to try kicking them. In fact, for players without 10 power strike and bonus damage vs shields, it's one of the few ways that you can get past a heavy shield, which you would otherwise have no chance of breaking. Hell, even from a realism standpoint it makes sense. The front kick is the classic space-making kick. If someone is crowding you, you put up a block and push them back with a quick kick. It doesn't really hurt, but it unbalances them and makes some space for you to move around in.
Basically, this is the bottom line: If you want to kick, put your shield away and go for it. Otherwise, stop whining.
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If possible, transform kick into shield bash that would only block up, left and right direction, just like shieldless kicks.
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Thanks for your input. While most people get my idea (not a "kicking is OP" pov, but a "kicking should be the same for everyone") I feel the need to adress a few points made.
Some inputs:
1. Don't facehug and the source of your frustration will vanish.
True, but since the most used polearms and 2h swords are far longer than 1h weapons (especially when compared with the higher damaging 1h weapons which have a reach of about 80 tops) I will not even be able to hit the enemy without being in his face (thus within kicking range).
2. Risky implementation, could either virtually erase the kick which will dull combat down more than it already is or make it an interesting challenge to succesfully land a kick. Either way, I disagree with the no-block part. Why not instead turn kick into a shield bash? It exists in some mods I reckon, which ones escape me however.
Would be perfectly fine for me. As I said, I don't particularly want to make kicking harder than it is now, just the same mechanic available to everyone.
3. The kick is not as lacking in risk as you want it to sound as, and if I may also point out that according to you, the reason kick should be "fixed" is because you are too often kicked in the duel server. If this is true, then this whole suggestion of yours becomes insignificant and almost irrelevant as I assume the balancing is not based on the duel mode(which is a minimal part of cRPG) but rather the battle mode. In that sense, kicks are incredibly risky. Yes it affects shielders more but uhhhh, do I really need to clarify?
I don't use a shield on the duel server. If I do, I would be even easier to beat as it slows my movement down a lot. In battle mode, when fighting a good player, I block the first few hits with my shield, maybe get a hit in and then the inevitable kicking starts. In clusterfucks, this doesn't happen (too risky), but at the sides or after the initial skirmish it's nearly identical to a duel situation. Just look around, it happens quite often.
You already have a shield. You don't have to worry about projectiles and block directions. If you want to be able to kick while blocking simply unequip your shield and voíla, you are as free as a pincushion.
The advantages of having a shield are already balanced by other game mechanics (reach, damage, weight, etc). There's no need to add kicking to that balance too.
Lot's of text.
As I said earlier, no need to change kicking for manual blocking as it is, just make it the same for shielders.
Kicking should not be a counter vs shielders. There's a range of other options for that.
Kicking should be a combat move available to everyone at the same risk/reward ratio. Wether that involves implementing a shield bash or allowing a shielder to block with his shield while kicking doesn't really matter to me.
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If possible, transform kick into shield bash that would only block up, left and right direction, just like shieldless kicks.
This is good idea on opposition to horrible idea - remove manual blocking while kicking.
There are some downsides like duels between slow shielders with 3 directional weapons will be all about shield bash and most shielders start to be good very quickly with it(or they are doomed.) For shielders this move will be viable in group fighting too and land left slash will be easier because of fast animation. So yeah it will be op in 2 months.
Land kick, block right direction and slash immediately its hard, some people like me try to learn it to use effectively for months and still failed.
As spawny said its problem mostly on duel situations, so take out your shield and you can kick too and :lol: 1h havent good reach, 100+ is more than enough (dont duel lame glaive abusers ofc).
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Ive played both 2h and sheilder and playing sheilder is signifcantly easier than 2h. I wasnt a backpedal 2h spammer and i didnt play on siege which tends to have low quality players so I cant speak to that being easier, but sheilders really dont need anymore advantage than they already have. Manual blocking is to an extent the hardest part of fighting, and sheilders dont even have to worry about it, its really easy mode for sheilders. Kicking is a small thing 2h players have that give them teh ability to open up sheilders.
Unless they have an ax or crushthrough, and most dont, they are never going to be able to break your sheild and you can just easily block everything. If anything sheilding should be nerfed to be made more challening, cause right now its so easy that someone whose been playing 2 or 3 days could do well with it, as said blocking is extremly easy and youve got about 12-20 chances to hit them back before your sheild breaks and it becomes a fair fight.
And just having a one hand weapon and no sheild is good in a duel, right swings and over hands look the same until the end the swing so its hard to know where to block, not to mention they are extremly fast. If you get kicked then you suck hard or have no atheletics, which you should if your a sheilder. So IMO sheilders need a nerf not a buff. And sheilders can defend themsleves against cav better than 2h, they can block a couch which a 2h can not. Ya there is bump slash, but given that 95% or more of cav is lancer cav, thats not too big of a concern.
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If possible, transform kick into shield bash that would only block up, left and right direction, just like shieldless kicks.
Very good idea. +1 Vibe.
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Archers can't kick at all :(
I tried kicking the enemy off a ladder (without a drawn bow, just standing there with it in my hand) and fell victim to the auto-stun the archer when in kick range "feature".
Sorry you can't block. At least you don't have to switch out your weapon, and then kick. :wink:
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No just your posts man.
You assume everything without knowing.
If you were just trying to troll the thread then good job. :)
8-)
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What makes you believe I want to achieve anything with these arguments?
Hahaha, I'm just trying to waste your time.
"Jessica, I love you!
"Yeah, well, I think you're a nerd"
"I WAS JUST JOKING"
And you're gay on top of that.
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Elaborate troll or simply retarded arguments, we will never know.
But since it's me, I'm guessing most people will go for the latter. And I'm fine with that. 8-)
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Ive played both 2h and sheilder and playing sheilder is signifcantly easier than 2h.
It's different. When you're 2H you can survive some situations I can't when I'm on my shielder (but again, level difference between them is 6 levels). Being shielder is epic for group fighting, all I have to do is to hold that left swing chambered and attack with the group, hoping that some retard teammate won't hit me from behind. Usually I'm the one who gets the kill.
Fighting polearms as 1H is hard but fighting them with 2H is hard as well. Fighting other shielders and 1H swordsmen is piss easy because they can't spam me (again just hold chambered left swing and feint a little bit, they won't even try to attack you, damn turtles).
And dehorsing noob cav is even easier with 1H stab :lol:
1H is pretty strong these days, I don't remember it being this good last time I've played as shielder.