cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Z_E_N on March 12, 2011, 05:13:35 am
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After various tests by different people, and the general "feel" of the current gameplay, I'm suggesting a compromise between the old AGI stat/skill system and the current one.
Let's face it, AGI is completely gimped atm. As much as people try to swear by it now, it is nowhere near as powerful as doing a full STR build. The only time AGI is worth anything is with the riding skill or shield skill.
First, AGI no longer has any passive boosts. We all believed it increased attack speed, and it used to, but Walt-F4 disproved that in another thread. STR gives both a slight damage increase (was this ever proved?) and HP boost.
Now lets take the skills and some proposed compromises.
Weapon Master - Most of us can agree the old system of AGI spammers was a bit much. AGI increased attack speed, WPF increased attack speed, people would grab a heavy weapon and spam like crazy. Now however, it's useless. The difference between 113 WPF (0 Weapon master skill) and 150ish WPF (5/6 WM) is pretty much nonexistant. AGI characters also lost their damage because of this, because they made up for some of the loss in power strike with higher WPF.
Compromise: Keep it at where AGI does not increase attack speed, but put WPF scaling back to where it was before. This way high AGI characters wont be double dipping to impossible attack speeds, but they will get a little bit more damage, and still have a slightly better attack speed. Also, this helps out the archers a little, not really increasing their damage, but making them more accurate. They already got nerfed so much that damage is nothing, but now they are so desparate for kills they fire into every melee and TK all the time. This would give them back some accuracy. Still low damage, but at least let them be accurate.
Athletics - This was a surprise change for me. Until the recent Athletics thread and some tests I had no clue this was nerfed. It always "felt" off, but now I realize why. This should never have been changed at all. There were never any complaints pre-patch of "OMG ATHLETICS WHORE NERF". Yes..its annoying running after high speed archers, but they are sacrificing some for that speed. If they have to sacrifice damage for that speed, people that want to catch them should have to sacrifice for the speed as well.
Anyway, thats all I have for now, any suggestions or comments from others would be appreciated. If I think of anything else I'll post more.
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I can not but help but agree with you. I have done both STR and AGI builds and it seems that STR builds reign over AGI. The speed advantage that AGI gives is just not worthwhile. Yeah, you can run around faster for a bit but the weaker blows, evasion, and non existent HP just lets you get blown away in one hit without having any kind of impact on the target. STR builds are the dominant ones on the battlefield. I do no agreee that AGI needs a buff, I think STR needs a nerf, or some middle ground. There should be no dominant stat choice, they need to be equal. As of right now STR is the only good choice.
Lets think about this.
STR lets you have this
More power strike - more damage per blow
More Iron Flesh - More damage you can take
More Power Throw - more accuracy and damage per throwing item
More Power Draw - More arrow damage and accuracy, though it does negate on draw speed
All of those together with any strength build lets you be a monster. Anyone with anything more in AGI will just be blown away in one or two hits.
Weapons just require STR to wield. WPF? What a joke. Why need to swing fast when you can just one hit. All you need to do is have some common sense to manual block, have IF to soak in the ranged (other than the ridiculous throwing garbage, my lordly black armour with 6 IF can get one hit with throwing shit)
Something needs to be done, agility is not useful at all unless you just want to walk fast. Who needs to swing fast when you can just have a deathblow? Plate is a joke to wear anymore.
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Agil is underpowered for some things.
Others its plain retarded (40 agil + side sword) :D
BTW poophammer you hit my peasant alt in siege when I was trying to lvl. tsk tsk :(
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Agil is underpowered for some things.
Others its plain retarded (40 agil + side sword) :D
BTW poophammer you hit my peasant alt in siege when I was trying to lvl. tsk tsk :(
High agility on side sword means it will have a low PS, also where you are getting all those stat points is beyond me considering it has an 8 req.
Low PS on a sword = no damage vs. medium or higher weapons because (read above), the WPF scaling sucks and AGI characters can no longer use WPF to gain a little bit of the damage they lost for not having PS.
I would like to point out that Walt-F4 also proved that having a fast weapon was far faster than having a high WPF on a slow weapon. Thus, a full STR/Power Strike character only needs to wield a fast weapon (95+) to outspam people.
I thought of something else that was nerfed for AGI: Shields. Shield skill no longer provide the "extra coverage" that they did before, as even tall shields can be shot around/over. While this makes sense, it's still another way AGI was nerfed. I wouldn't recommend changing this back, as long as AGI gets some love in other areas.
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No, doing what you propose will bring back the 200+ wpf archers who can shoot accurately across the map.
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No, doing what you propose will bring back the 200+ wpf archers who can shoot accurately across the map.
But thats the thing, archers should be accurate, because they do crap damage
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What are you trying to fix exactly? I don't see why agi should be changed.
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But thats the thing, archers should be accurate, because they do crap damage
You don't get it , Weight is an archer himself.
Agi is good as it is.
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No, doing what you propose will bring back the 200+ wpf archers who can shoot accurately across the map.
That was more because of a portion WPF carrying over from generation to generation, less because of it requiring fewer points to reach a given WPF level.
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What are you trying to fix exactly? I don't see why agi should be changed.
AGI should be changed because at the moment is does absolutely nothing useful except let you ride faster/better horses and carry better shields.
STR lets you hit harder, survive longer, you can swing just as fast as an agi character (130 WPF is barely slower than 170 WPF and faster if you use a faster weapon). Wear better armor, use more powerful weapons..
The only reason why AGI was "overpowered" prepatch is as mentioned, the WPF generation boost. Also we had characters that were much higher level than some (now everyone stops at level 31).
I have always played AGI stacked characters prepatch, so I am very comfortable with the playstyle. Now, I play full strength (as in 3 AGI), and I completely destroy AGI characters. Its laughable, even people who are mixed (18/18) will often die in one shot and can not spam me at all. They _should_ be able to spam me when I have 3 AGI, but my WPF is enough to match theirs.
Edit: Oh, and for those that say their 160 WPF is enough to spam 110 WPF, go read Walt-F4's study. There is barely any difference in swing speeds between that.
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They _should_ be able to spam me when I have 3 AGI
Unless you're using a maul, nope.
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But thats the thing, archers should be accurate, because they do crap damage
Quite the opposite: archers should have a reticule as wide as pre-patch xbowmen (maybe even wider)...in other words: they shouldnt be able to hit shit but when they do it should do some proper damage (with ofc all that range/armor calculations taken into consideration)......the fact is: arrows are deadly and kill people quite efficiently.....but archers are/were not snipers, Robin Hood and similar stories are myths and legends, a joke. Even if there were a few people in history of the world who were extraordinary with bow and arrows those are just exceptions that confirm the rule. And yes, now you can start the flood about how realism is not important and all that......and after youre done with it please pull the lever and flush it out, then you can login to your WoW/whatever account and play in peace.
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Quite the opposite: archers should have a reticule as wide as pre-patch xbowmen (maybe even wider)...in other words: they shouldnt be able to hit shit but when they do it should do some proper damage (with ofc all that range/armor calculations taken into consideration)......the fact is: arrows are deadly and kill people quite efficiently.....but archers are/were not snipers, Robin Hood and similar stories are myths and legends, a joke. Even if there were a few people in history of the world who were extraordinary with bow and arrows those are just exceptions that confirm the rule. And yes, now you can start the flood about how realism is not important and all that......and after youre done with it please pull the lever and flush it out, then you can login to your WoW/whatever account and play in peace.
This isn't a thread on how archers should be to be realistic.
This is a thread about balancing the two stats.
Your post is moot.
Besides, if a developer says that AGI should be unbalanced and much weaker than STR like his post above says, then thats how it should be right? They are providing this game for free after all, so now my argument is invalid; because the devs want it how it is.
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This isn't a thread on how archers should be to be realistic.
You're telling it to the wrong person. :wink:
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They _should_ be able to spam me when I have 3 AGI, but my WPF is enough to match theirs.
Edit: Oh, and for those that say their 160 WPF is enough to spam 110 WPF, go read Walt-F4's study. There is barely any difference in swing speeds between that.
I hope you realize that the game intentionally prevents "spamming people" as an option in all but the most extreme speed difference cases, such as great maul overheads.
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I hope you realize that the game intentionally prevents "spamming people" as an option in all but the most extreme speed difference cases, such as great maul overheads.
I agree, someone with an average wpf and wm/agi should never be spammed. However, someone who takes the "risk" of 3 agi 0 wm should have a disadvantage. As it is right now, 3 agi is actually an advantage. A 39 or 36/3 character has a HUGE advantage compared to a 24/15 or 18/18.
Why should someone with a 3 agi actually have an advantage because they chose to dump everything in strength? It should be balanced with disadvantages.
You might as well just get rid of weapon master entirely, because as of now it makes no difference.
Prepatch we had problems added on that made it absurd.
Wpf carryover from earlier gens giving high str characters insanely fast attack as well.
Very high level 40+ characters that had high stat advantage giving them the same.
Now there is no wpf carryover, and no insane level differences, so why can't weaponmasters be finesse fast attackers? They graze half the time anyway.
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Quite the opposite: archers should have a reticule as wide as pre-patch xbowmen (maybe even wider)...in other words: they shouldnt be able to hit shit but when they do it should do some proper damage
Meh, no fun in that. With a very wide reticule and good damage the good archer will be nerfed, while the noobs will be buffed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that sucks.
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First, AGI no longer has any passive boosts. We all believed it increased attack speed, and it used to, but Walt-F4 disproved that in another thread. STR gives both a slight damage increase (was this ever proved?) and HP boost.
Even if we do know that it does not affect attack speed, we still do not know for a fact that it has no passive boosts, do we? :?
Surely it could be affecting block speed, attack recovery speed or feint (well, chamber) speed?
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Weapon points sould definitly affect youre ability to use a weapon. Right now you need zero wp to use a 2h sword. This is why ppl chase archers only to be killed by a flamberge. Someone with 0 wp should be significantly slower than someone with 150 wps.
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It is fine as it is now. There is a noticeably big difference in 0 wpf to 100. Even 0 to 50.
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Weapon points sould definitly affect youre ability to use a weapon. Right now you need zero wp to use a 2h sword. This is why ppl chase archers only to be killed by a flamberge. Someone with 0 wp should be significantly slower than someone with 150 wps.
Exactly.
It is fine as it is now. There is a noticeably big difference in 0 wpf to 100. Even 0 to 50.
I'd like to refer you to Walt-F4's study here:
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2531.0.html
If you look at the graphs, you will see that most weapons don't even gain a 0.1 second speed increase between 0-50 WPF. You may think it helps, but numbers don't lie.
Some weapons don't even get a 0.1 second speed increase until 140 WPF.
Oh, the best part is, full STR characters with 0 WM can have 113 WPF at level 30. AGI characters have around 140-160 at level 30. Extreme AGI ones have 190 at most, but do no damage and glance all the time. So at most an extreme no-damage AGI character has a 77 WPF advantage, which is about 0.05 second speed difference.
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it sucks.
i played a 5 pdraw 8 weaponmaster archer with 170 wpf -> couldnt hold the string of the strongbow for longer than 0.25 . that was annoying, as u are forced to shoot without thinking or really aiming. just poining to the ememy and fire.
quite accurate in this "instant" fire mode, but it doesnt make fun and it makes teamkills almost normal because u can't aim carefully.
so what now? forget all bows above kergit?
or get 7 pdraw and have about 150 wpf what makes a Warbow useless in my eyes. its a fast type of xbow with these stats.
so archers need some love.. but not more damage. more damage would make plate completetely useless.
i want a smaller reticule when i am lvl30 - and i dont see why there is a longbow no one uses.
archers shouldnt be forced to be another type of xbow by stacking pdraw instead of useless high wpf.
people cry because of tk's archers do, but have u ever thought about firing 40 arrows every round and never having a reticule that is closed enought to make it sure that u cant hit ur mates?
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There's more to battle than just attack speed. Having 3 AGI means you have 0 or 1 athletics, which severely gimps your footwork. Yes athletics was proved in the other thread to have a negligible effect on max run speed while wearing armor, however what it DOES do very well is increase your acceleration and that's what matters in the heat of combat. Footwork in a melee is all about darting in/out of range, encircling, dodging strikes - with 1 athletics you are a brick shithouse, you better be good at manual blocking because, for example, it will be very hard to sidestep an overhead when you move so slow.
I don't get why people say athletics is gimped unless your whole MO is to try to chase down archers, it has a definite tremendous effect on your ability to use footwork effectively.
And that's why AGI, although it still needs a small boost, isn't quite as bad as everyone thinks it is.
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I agree completely with the OP. AGI is terrible right now. I used to play an 18 STR /21 AGI build and have since migrated to a 24 STR / 12 AGI build. I did decently well before, but now I dominate. AGI characters especially tend to die in 1 or 2 (max) hits when they try and fight me. Their marginally quicker extra swing speed and slightly faster footwork doesn't compensate for the fact that they have to hit me twice as many times as I have to hit them in order to score a kill.
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i was 18 str 33 agi pre christmas.
now i play 21-21 or 18-18 or even 24-18
agi suck and with new wpf formula is even more gimped
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lol my stats were almost same.
18/31 at the highest.
seems that was quite the best build in the old system, if a melee and a archer choose same.
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lol @ thread
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I'm really not sure how Walt-F4's study represent other agi related things such as blocking. For example, on my 30/9 build I've noticed that changing block direction goes twice as fast as setting block from "neutral" position, I've never experienced such with 15/24 builds. Blocking with 30/9 after 15/24 is a bit hard for me, difference in wpf 110 - 170, maybe it's subtle on graph, but I'm sure that graph dosnt show whole picture.
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I agree with OP in the problems but idk if what suggested is the best solution.
either way my 30 agility pure katana ninja is totally gimped, unfortunately will prolly never reach retire and respec him ;).
on the other hand my 30 str guy is awesome even without barmace.
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For the record, Agility DOES increase swing speed. Ive done crpg testing, it goes up clearly.
+3 AGI = +20 WPF
For swing speed increases
That said...
The new WPF scaling system is yet another thing that is "forced equality"
Where everyone has roughly the same WPF and armor. The problem it causes in this situation is that the same AGI is less valuable, while STR is still just as valuable.
The update just gimps AGI builds.....which was never needed, they were weak to begin with.
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Yes Agi does need so love back. I think that unless you are just a HA or want high riding or high shield skill there is no reason to get more than 15 agi ever. 24 -12 or 21 - 15 seem the way to go. Although I do see tons of people even going further with 6 or 9 agi only and they take so much to kill in plate and kill so easily. Espically if they have 9 or 10 power throw holy crap those guy are getting old. STR is so OP now compared to agi it's stupid!
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For the record, Agility DOES increase swing speed. Ive done crpg testing, it goes up clearly.
+3 AGI = +20 WPF
For swing speed increases
That said...
The new WPF scaling system is yet another thing that is "forced equality"
Where everyone has roughly the same WPF and armor. The problem it causes in this situation is that the same AGI is less valuable, while STR is still just as valuable.
The update just gimps AGI builds.....which was never needed, they were weak to begin with.
+1 to everything except
The update just gimps AGI builds.....which was never needed, they were weak to begin with.
The balb builds out there were OP... BUT they only worked because of a lack of level cap (level 40s were very possible) and the WPF carry-over per generation.
The issue with AGI right now is the wpf scaling. If you went all strength build, you SHOULD be able to get outspammed by a high agility build. Why? Because 1 hitting is completely possible, as we have been discussing in another thread.
For the sake of this discussion, we will be using this all-strength build with a Great Long Axe (46c)
* Strength: 30
* Agility: 6
* Hit points: 82
* Unused skill points: 5
* Converted: 2
* Ironflesh: 10
* Power Strike: 10
* Shield: 0
* Athletics: 2
* Riding: 0
* Horse Archery: 0
* Power Draw: 0
* Power Throw: 0
* Weapon Master: 2
* One Handed: 1
* Two Handed: 125
* Polearm: 1
* Archery: 1
* Crossbow: 1
* Throwing: 1
here's a few of the figures
Calculations
Weapon damage * Power Strike Bonus * WPF bonus * Speed Bonus +Strength Bonus (under debate!) = Raw Damage
((46 * (1 + 0.80) * (1 + ((125 / 200) * .015)) * (1 + 0.15) + (30 - 14)) = 112.112687
Here is the calculations without the debated strength bonus
((46 * (1 + 0.80) * (1 + ((125 / 200) * .015)) * (1 + 0.15))) = 94.0232812
Now we can calculate the armor
For this test, we will calculate out damage soak with three different types of armor. Light armor (Studded Leather Coat, 30 body armor,) Medium Armor (Cuir Bouilli over Mail, 45 body armor,) and the heaviest armor, (Black Armor, 60 body armor.)
We will also be calculating out armor at average effectiveness, lowest effectiveness, and highest effectiveness. The formula we are using is as follows.
Base effective armor * (0.5 through 1.0 armor effectiveness) * Damage type soak= total damage reduction from armor
Lowest effective armor, Studded Leather Coat 30 * 0.5 * 0.8= total damage reduction from armor 12
Average effective armor, Studded Leather Coat 30 * 0.75 * 0.8= total damage reduction from armor 18
Highest effective armor, Studded Leather Coat 30 * 1.0 * 0.8= total damage reduction from armor 24
Lowest effective armor, Cuir Boulli over Mail 45 * 0.5 * 0.8= total damage reduction from armor 18
Average effective armor, Cuir Boulli over Mail 45 * 0.75 * 0.8= total damage reduction from armor 27
Highest effective armor, Cuir Boulli over Mail 45 * 1.0 * 0.8= total damage reduction from armor 36
Lowest effective armor, Black Armor over Mail 60 * 0.5 * 0.8= total damage reduction from armor 24
Average effective armor, Black Armor over Mail 60 * 0.75 * 0.8= total damage reduction from armor 36
Highest effective armor, Black Armor over Mail 60 * 1.0 * 0.8= total damage reduction from armor 48
Here is the result
Light armor, ineffective armor roll 112 - 12= 100
Light armor, ineffective armor roll, no strength damage bonus 92 - 12= 80
Light armor, average armor roll 112 - 18= 94
Light armor, average armor roll, no strength damage bonus 92 - 18= 74
Light armor, ineffective armor roll, 112 - 24= 88
Light armor, most effective armor roll, no strength damage bonus 92 - 24= 68
Medium armor, ineffective armor roll, no strength damage bonus 112 - 18= 94
Medium armor, ineffective armor roll, no strength damage bonus 92 - 18= 74
Medium armor, average armor roll 112- 27= 85
Medium armor, average armor roll, no strength damage bonus 92 - 27= 65
Medium armor, most effective armor roll 112 - 36= 76
Medium armor, most effective armor roll, no strength damage bonus 92 - 36= 56
Heaviest armor, ineffective armor roll 112 - 24= 88
Heaviest armor, ineffective armor roll, no strength damage bonus 92 - 24= 68
Heaviest armor, average armor roll 112 - 36= 76
Heaviest armor, average armor roll, no strength damage bonus 92 - 36= 56
Heaviest armor, most effective armor roll 112 - 48= 64
Heaviest armor, most effective armor roll, no strength damage bonus 92 - 48= 44
Characters start off with 35 life. To calculate their life, we can use this formula
35 + (Strength - 3) + (Ironflesh level * 2) = Final life
for a character with 15 Strength and 5 IF we would get
35 + (15 - 3) + (5 * 2)= 57
for a character with 12 Strength and 4 IF we would get
35 + (12 - 3) + (4 * 2)= 52
for a strength build character with 30 strength and 10 IF we get the following
35 + (30 - 3) + (10 * 2)= 82
To sum it up, if you use a strength build character, unless the character you hit is also a strength build character, you can easily one-shot an opponent even if they are in the heaviest of armor.
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Your damage formular seems to be pretty wrong. Didn't even get to the armor part because the facepalm blinded me.
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There's more to battle than just attack speed. Having 3 AGI means you have 0 or 1 athletics, which severely gimps your footwork. Yes athletics was proved in the other thread to have a negligible effect on max run speed while wearing armor, however what it DOES do very well is increase your acceleration and that's what matters in the heat of combat. Footwork in a melee is all about darting in/out of range, encircling, dodging strikes - with 1 athletics you are a brick shithouse, you better be good at manual blocking because, for example, it will be very hard to sidestep an overhead when you move so slow.
I don't get why people say athletics is gimped unless your whole MO is to try to chase down archers, it has a definite tremendous effect on your ability to use footwork effectively.
And that's why AGI, although it still needs a small boost, isn't quite as bad as everyone thinks it is.
Actually this is not true at all. I've done extensive testing on the duel server with people of various builds and in a 1v1 fight someone with 1 athletics can match the footwork speed of a player with 8 athletics. Simply doing a test of circle strafing and advancing/withdrawing together they will match each others capability. In extended movements athletics will let you reach your top speed if you can force the other player to miss and run past him in order to retreat, however in combat athletics provides no real benefit to your ability to out maneuver a low agi/ath character. That is entirely dependant on player skill. This changes when you reach 10 athletics and are naked as you are almost capable of backpedaling faster than a low athletics character can move forward, however this is an extreme joke build and not something to take into consideration when talking about overall balance.
Between the testing and especially data provided by Walt, a good majority of us have noticed the gimped nature of agility/athletics for quite some time now which is why most players in the know have retired, or are working on it, in order to respec into a 1-shot str build.
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Actually this is not true at all. I've done extensive testing on the duel server with people of various builds and in a 1v1 fight someone with 1 athletics can match the footwork speed of a player with 8 athletics. Simply doing a test of circle strafing and advancing/withdrawing together they will match each others capability. In extended movements athletics will let you reach your top speed if you can force the other player to miss and run past him in order to retreat, however in combat athletics provides no real benefit to your ability to out maneuver a low agi/ath character. That is entirely dependant on player skill. This changes when you reach 10 athletics and are naked as you are almost capable of backpedaling faster than a low athletics character can move forward, however this is an extreme joke build and not something to take into consideration when talking about overall balance.
Between the testing and especially data provided by Walt, a good majority of us have noticed the gimped nature of agility/athletics for quite some time now which is why most players in the know have retired, or are working on it, in order to respec into a 1-shot str build.
This is pretty much it. The only build I've found it very useful in is as a shielder, for both the shield skill and the athletics, since, with a shield, you're more sensitive to a lack of maneuverability.
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Does AGI increase swing speed or not anymore? I ahve been making these high STR builds since patch because I was told AGI does not add any bonus past unlocking skills every x3.
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Athletics does increase speed(watch canary or beeper sometime) problem is wearing anything past leather in my research seems to negate any gain
And my guy with three athletic is faster than my all str polearm in heavy armor
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Sucks. I guess they gimped agi this patch for whatever reason.
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I honestly have no complaints on my 12 str 24 agi char in melee. Its a bit weak against mass ranged, of course, but generally the speed lets me pick my fights. I do my best on that character, honestly.
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Athletics does increase speed(watch canary or beeper sometime) problem is wearing anything past leather in my research seems to negate any gain
And my guy with three athletic is faster than my all str polearm in heavy armor
Right, hence the naked remark. Walt F4 even concluded this in his testing. Armor itself negates the benefit at such a drastic level that unless you're making an extreme lololo build which runs in robes or nekkid, the armor you wear will negate your investment severely. I only wear tribal warrior armor 90% of the time, less than lamellar and the str builds I was testing against were all in heraldic mail or higher and our speeds were pretty much identical. Naked I was clearly faster, but running naked is a gimmick, and personally having even low-mid level armor gimping your speed to such a degree (considering that's the "average" armor on the field) makes the value null.
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lol all of my character's build are based on agi, it seems to me it works well, i stay on top of scoreboard most of the time. theres nothing wrong with agi build i think, u just need learn how to block and pick ur target in the right moment. And with a balanced great danish sword, i do 1 swing 1 kill or 2 swing 1 kill alot, well, for medium or light armor it is, heavy armor will be like 3-4 swings. And 1 thurst in the head, most ppl will die instanly, even heavy armor ppl, its not that bad i think. my build is 14-27, in case if anyone want to try it out.
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I agree with the OP. Revert to the old WPF scaling costs, keep the other nerfs. That should make things more balanced, give a bone to agi builds, and encourage specialization as a choice again, rather than making hybridizing a no-brainer, as it is now.
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I agree with the OP. Revert to the old WPF scaling costs, keep the other nerfs. That should make things more balanced, give a bone to agi builds, and encourage specialization as a choice again, rather than making hybridizing a no-brainer, as it is now.
I agree atm if u are going over 15 agi u had better want a super fast horse or be HA or be a multi weapon hybrid
Right after patch I did a 15 str 27 agi 181 wpf two hand build and was very successful (or so I thought) but after extensive testing of str builds it my twitch skills made an otherwise fail build work(i.e i do better and notice no usable weapon speed from the loss in agi with high str)
Although I definitely noticed taking four hits to down enemies with a "powerful" twohand
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For the record, Agility DOES increase swing speed. Ive done crpg testing, it goes up clearly.
+3 AGI = +20 WPF
For swing speed increases
Could you please explain how you determined this? Several posters, myself included, have conducted tests (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2531.0.html) in the current version of cRPG concluding that agility does not change the time taken for an attack to complete. I would be very interested if you have an alternative method to measure swing speed that yields different results.
Armor itself negates the benefit at such a drastic level that unless you're making an extreme lololo build which runs in robes or nekkid, the armor you wear will negate your investment severely.
The heaviest armor that can currently be worn (black armor, armet, heavy gauntlets, and black/cased greaves) reduces your weapon proficiencies by ~35% (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2722.0.html). I do not know if that qualifies as drastic, but the loss of weapon proficiency due to armor does favor characters that have lower initial weapon proficiencies.
I ahve been making these high STR builds since patch because I was told AGI does not add any bonus past unlocking skills every x3.
I am in the process of measuring the time taken to run a fixed distance with various agility, athletics, and weight combinations. Increasing agility does decrease the time taken to run across the aforementioned distance. I should have the remaining tests finished for a post this week.
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The heaviest armor that can currently be worn (black armor, armet, heavy gauntlets, and black/cased greaves) reduces your weapon proficiencies by ~35% (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2722.0.html). I do not know if that qualifies as drastic, but the loss of weapon proficiency due to armor does favor characters that have lower initial weapon proficiencies.
Well what I mean is this:
1) Agi toon with 173 wpf (15/24 build)
2) Str toon with 148 wpf (24/15 build)
Your example of 35% wpf loss:
1 = 128 ewpf. 45 point loss
2 = 109 ewpf. 39 point loss
Level 30 = 113 wpf
WM Gain
1 = 118 +5
2 = 125 +7
3 = 132 +5
4 = 139 +6
5 = 148 +9
6 = 156 +8
7 = 164 +8
8 = 173 +9
Essentially build 1 in that armor loses 6 WM
Build 2 loses 5
Build 2 is more efficient (str instead of Agility). If there are discrepencies in armor this is more pronounced. STR build can wear lighter armor than the agi build and they'll take around the same number of hits to kill because of PS/IF/HP differences while having even less of a loss than the AGI character does. AGI character wears lighter armor and guarantees a 1-shot death to the STR build in order to achieve the same efficiency in WM loss.
In other words, to me at least, it further reinforces that STR builds are far better builds in terms of cost/benefit and efficiency in just about every area. Even Z_E_N's research and testing, and my own in the duel servers, show the lack of tangible benefit from athletics you gain with an agi build if you wear armor greater than padded/leather/etc.
Your research into the weapon swing speeds show that there's not much improvement in swing speed with higher WPF either. Some sure, but not alot.
I am in the process of measuring the time taken to run a fixed distance with various agility, athletics, and weight combinations. Increasing agility does decrease the time taken to run across the aforementioned distance. I should have the remaining tests finished for a post this week.
Can't wait to see it.
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Another thing about athletics and its effect. I'm currently running one of the "joke" builds, 9/30 with 10 ath, wearing almost nothing, and there is a noticable decrease in speed when I wear sword of weight 1, instead of my usual long dagger which is 0.3. I can only imagine that wearing a two hander or even polearm would slow me significantly more. What I'm trying to say is, that high athletics is really not worth it unless you are planning on playing super light character.
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I am in the process of measuring the time taken to run a fixed distance with various agility, athletics, and weight combinations. Increasing agility does decrease the time taken to run across the aforementioned distance. I should have the remaining tests finished for a post this week.
this is true and I only know because I made a 27 agi character without athletics and he was damn fast(post patch)
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Your damage formular seems to be pretty wrong. Didn't even get to the armor part because the facepalm blinded me.
Rather than be a dick and make a snarky comment, you could do something productive and share your version of it.
The damage formula used assumes its neither an undercharged or overcharged swing to the torso and does not calculate sweet spots.
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Actually this is not true at all. I've done extensive testing on the duel server with people of various builds and in a 1v1 fight someone with 1 athletics can match the footwork speed of a player with 8 athletics.
Good info there Gorath thanks for taking the time you and Walt. They gotta do something really need to bring the wpf scale back to pre patch lvl. I also think that chars that have 5 or more athetlics should get an actual run speed buff even if it's just 2-3% per Athletics over 5 or over 6 depending on the % you use. IDK something!!
This all STR build crap is really old. Everyone just one shotting or 1 throwing people :(
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Whew this discussion got somewhere good while I was off playing Shogun 2.
So we can essentially conclude so far:
- To be extremely fast you have to be naked/near naked with a practice dagger.
- To just be plain fast you still have to be naked/near naked with a decently lightweight weapon.
- High STR builds almost everyone can agree is boring, yet it is so much more powerful that we are handicapping ourselves greatly if we don't do it.
- Armor destroys AGI even more than I originally realized with the WPF.
- AGI chars can always be near one-shot. However, they can't even swing fast enough to keep a STR character on their toes so they have zero advantage against them. Even if you are a much better duelist than the STR char you are fighting, you still have to hit them 5+ times to kill them and one slip will get you killed instead.
The grand picture: We are getting bored with doing throwing hybrids. We are getting bored seeing the exact same characters everywhere (with different looking armor, but generally the same). Nobody likes being one-shot, but unless you are one of the players "in the know", then you are probably getting one shot all the time. Fixing AGI brings back specialization characters while also putting a limit on how high STR can go (because they will get spammed; and rightfully should if they have 0 WM). This in turn lowers the number of "one-shots", making combat more interesting. It also makes combat more fast paced so everyone and their grandmother can't manual block like a Jedi (sorry to say, everyone that is a pro manual blocker now is only because combat is so slow paced..sure there are some great ones that would be great even with the faster speed; but there are SUBSTANTIALLY more players that can manual block everything than pre-patch because the combat speed has slowed down).
(Edit: Ok maybe that last comment was a bit harsh, but combat was still more interesting pre-patch with the faster paced non one-shot combat).
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- High STR builds almost everyone can agree is extremely pleasant to play, yet it is so much more powerful that we are handicapping ourselves greatly if we don't do it.
Fixed that little part for you.