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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: kinngrimm on March 25, 2012, 11:57:45 am

Title: lvl30+,ranged,cav,special attacks,teamplay
Post by: kinngrimm on March 25, 2012, 11:57:45 am
after being away for a while, i guess i got some perspective on crpg
so here are some of my subjective opinions what still can be improved

descrimination of lvl 30+ characters, they don't get
- to heirloom stuff anymore
- smithing skills
- to test and change their build anymore
- heirlooms from sacrificed alt characters
and as you normally have all your gear loomed at the time you go for max lvl ,
so you wear it mostly, therefor you have in average higher upkeep costs.
And before i forget about it because it is so basic, leveling after lvl 30 is a bitch.
I for myself can live with higher upkeep costs and that it takes like forever to reach 34, 35 and perhaps in my lifetime get to 36, but the other things just suck.

Special Attacks:
polestagger/chrushtrhough
In the combat system of M&B you can't hit twice without the fear to be attacked yourself.
So i would suggest do it equally for these very powerful Special Attacks.
Either that you need to make another attack without the the chance of a Special Attack or that you have a cooldown of a few seconds 3-4 seconds. Chrushthrough has i believe a relation to str of the dude trying to block it, is there a relation or what do you think about one between polestagger and agi? The higher the agi the more likely you can evade that effect. So Str builds can get lucky against Chrushthrough and Agi builds can get lucky against polestagger.

Cavalry:
wow so many ...
so when do we get a sheatable bamboo spear/awlpike?(not that sheatable was at anytime a reason to call these weapons OP, most people would say it is the high piercing+polestagger)
Is it only me who now gets like oneshoted all the time by "not even couched" lances? must be the changes to armor soaking i guess. Because of this i often go out now in very light gear as i feel not that big of a difference in armor values when facing cav. 9 generations spent on looming gear ... puff.
[EDIT: remove ability to still be able to hit while the horses was stopped, to stop a horse should count equally like been hit themselves in terms of being crippled to react for a second, so they do need to block]

Ranged:
didn't you nerf them like in any patch and they are still growing in numbers.
lately when i was on battle servers, i had been in teams consisting 10-15 cavalary 20-40 ranged and ranged hybrids, 10-20 inf.
Going out in the flanks was sometimes just a pain. You face 5-7 archers in a group and you get bumped(at least) by cav better even by HA ^^. Bump&Shot, effective true but very annoying.
So as a dedicated shielder, where in his job description stands "hunt ranged because you have a shield", there is no way getting near them on open field and if there is cover you find to sneak up on them, you can get lucky with 1-2 and then get shot to pieces :) now imagine guys who don't even have a shield.
What happened to their special attack? wasn't there something on the brink? like volleys?
Also if i remember correctly there was something about 3-5+ ranged in one group getting a malus?

teamplay & grouping effects & counters:
I very much like the concept of getting bonus for good teamplay.
The best example here atm is the shieldwall bonus.

How about:
- cavalary charge: 5+ cav in close proximity charging at the same target. They are getting resistance against the effect which would stop their horses.
- pikewall: 5+ pikes increase the possibility to stop horses or even oneshot them
- raining arrows: archery volleys(only in strategus?)

and some others which maybe a bit more arguable:
- flanking dmg: if you outnumber someone 2+:1 you deal additional damage
- last stand: if you are outflanked, your adrenaline kicks in and you get a speed bonus weapon speed and athletics.
- throwers menace: having 5+ throwers in a group increases their throwing speed
- whirlwind: 5+ 2h getting athletics bonus
Title: Re: lvl30+,ranged,cav,special attacks,teamplay
Post by: Cup1d on March 25, 2012, 12:54:15 pm
Quote
Also if i remember correctly there was something about 3-5+ ranged in one group getting a malus?

Since when we have penalised teamplay?

Also I'm just don't wanna comment your «whirlwind» and other diablo like gameplay suggestion. What about fireballs and unicorns, manapool and power word kill? Too much mainstream gaming?
Title: Re: lvl30+,ranged,cav,special attacks,teamplay
Post by: Leshma on March 25, 2012, 01:13:33 pm
So basically, this is type of the thread where you list everything that kills you in game and demand a nerf. That is perfectly reasonable but I don't understand what being high level has to do with it.

Are we entitled to some god given powers other than additional skill/attribute points?

Title: Re: lvl30+,ranged,cav,special attacks,teamplay
Post by: kinngrimm on March 25, 2012, 01:24:45 pm
Quote from: Cup1d on March 25, 2012, 12:54:15 pm
Since when we have penalised teamplay?

Also I'm just don't wanna comment your «whirlwind» and other diablo like gameplay suggestion. What about fireballs and unicorns, manapool and power word kill? Too much mainstream gaming?
Quote from: Leshma on March 25, 2012, 01:13:33 pm
So basically, this is type of the thread where you list everything that kills you in game and demand a nerf. That is perfectly reasonable but I don't understand what being high level has to do with it.

Are we entitled to some god given powers other than additional skill/attribute points?
while i did state in the beginning these would be my subjective opinions, i still see no reason to not take them seriously.

@Cup1d, change the names to your liking, the point was to improve via bonuses, gratifications, insentives certain forms of teamplay, if you have a better suggestion let them hear us or be silent.

@Leshma read again, it isn't about nerfing everything but finding balance. These things i mentioned aren't only topics for a specific class like that of myself, but you may have a different opinion there. Being high level was stated as a single point, standing out alone with no priorizing or direct joined sense with the others combined. Mentioning all in the topic was just to let the audiance see what is been adressed.
I don't get the part with god and entitled please explain.
Title: Re: lvl30+,ranged,cav,special attacks,teamplay
Post by: Bulzur on March 25, 2012, 02:21:24 pm
Quote from: kinngrimm on March 25, 2012, 11:57:45 am
after being away for a while, i guess i got some perspective on crpg
so here are some of my subjective opinions what still can be improved

discrimination of lvl 30+ characters, they don't get
- to heirloom stuff anymore
- smithing skills
- to test and change their build anymore
- heirlooms from sacrificed alt characters
and as you normally have all your gear loomed at the time you go for max lvl ,
so you wear it mostly, therefor you have in average higher upkeep costs.
And before i forget about it because it is so basic, leveling after lvl 30 is a bitch.
I for myself can live with higher upkeep costs and that it takes like forever to reach 34, 35 and perhaps in my lifetime get to 36, but the other things just suck.

Discrimination ? It's your own choice if you decide NOT to retire. Face the consequences. Thoses "consequences" were made to insure that we always have some peasants. If you decide to always stay a "knight", and never have to go through al the peasant leveling, and since it's not what the devs want, then of course they'll make it so that you have to actually THINK before deciding not to retire. Is it worth it ? Won't it be boring ? etc...
I'm sick of people starting threads : "Please give X heirlooms to level 32 or above, based on their level", "Please give a permanent health bonus if retiring at level 33 or above", etc...

YOU decided not to retire, YOU decide if you want thoses smith skills, heirlooms, etc... No one is forcing you not to retire. Stop whining.

Quote from: kinngrimm on March 25, 2012, 11:57:45 am
Special Attacks:
polestagger/chrushtrhough
In the combat system of M&B you can't hit twice without the fear to be attacked yourself.
So i would suggest do it equally for these very powerful Special Attacks.
Either that you need to make another attack without the the chance of a Special Attack or that you have a cooldown of a few seconds 3-4 seconds. Crushthrough has i believe a relation to str of the dude trying to block it, is there a relation or what do you think about one between polestagger and agi? The higher the agi the more likely you can evade that effect. So Str builds can get lucky against Crushthrough and Agi builds can get lucky against polestagger.

That's an interesting idea. But it seems really complicated too.
If you have the agi, then you can backpedal to really evade the pole-users attack.
If you have the str, then you shouldn't be facing a mauler, since you lack athletics, and even if he'll need 4 overhead hits for you, you'll still be crushed.

That's one of the interesting advantages of an AGI build, with no shield. Quickness. If you're a STR build, then expect hard times when facing a good mauler user. Or not, if you know how to deal with them. Not an issue, imo.

Quote from: kinngrimm on March 25, 2012, 11:57:45 am
Cavalry:
wow so many ...
so when do we get a sheatable bamboo spear/awlpike?(not that sheatable was at anytime a reason to call these weapons OP, most people would say it is the high piercing+polestagger)
Is it only me who now gets like oneshoted all the time by "not even couched" lances? must be the changes to armor soaking i guess. Because of this i often go out now in very light gear as i feel not that big of a difference in armor values when facing cav. 9 generations spent on looming gear ... puff.
[EDIT: remove ability to still be able to hit while the horses was stopped, to stop a horse should count equally like been hit themselves in terms of being crippled to react for a second, so they do need to block]

I agree that the fact you sometimes rear the horse succesfully, but are still being stabbed by the lancer is kinda irritating. Add to this the strange "blocking force field" coming from the cavman ("omg, he protected his horse's head by downblocking while mounted ? o_O"), and it's indeed a pain.
A group of cavalry, playing together, are really powerfull. And to face them, you need an heavy teamplay from the other team, pikeman protecting themselves AND ranged. Ranged shooting down horses. Other team staying near a wall or trees, downblocking.

At the moment, cavs are powerful because infantry is... stupid. And prefer to mindlessly charge the other infantry. If real teamwork was in place, i assure you cavs won't be that deadly.

Quote from: kinngrimm on March 25, 2012, 11:57:45 am
Ranged:
didn't you nerf them like in any patch and they are still growing in numbers.
lately when i was on battle servers, i had been in teams consisting 10-15 cavalary 20-40 ranged and ranged hybrids, 10-20 inf.
Going out in the flanks was sometimes just a pain. You face 5-7 archers in a group and you get bumped(at least) by cav better even by HA ^^. Bump&Shot, effective true but very annoying.
So as a dedicated shielder, where in his job description stands "hunt ranged because you have a shield", there is no way getting near them on open field and if there is cover you find to sneak up on them, you can get lucky with 1-2 and then get shot to pieces :) now imagine guys who don't even have a shield.

They were nerfed. Definitely.
As such, to be effective, archers need to "regroup", and play together. And, since they always die when playing alone, they've realised this pretty quickly, and are now staying together, even when not knowing each other.
There's more than one way to deal with them :
-Use your own range.
-Attack with 2 shielders, and when the range start running away, call one of your cavalry to help kill them. Teamwork.

Seriously, it's not because you have a shield, that you can go and kill alone, 5 archers. You're doing it wrong.


Quote from: kinngrimm on March 25, 2012, 11:57:45 am
What happened to their special attack? wasn't there something on the brink? like volleys?
Also if i remember correctly there was something about 3-5+ ranged in one group getting a malus?

Nope. Never was. The volley was for strategus only, and hasn't being implemented.

Quote from: kinngrimm on March 25, 2012, 11:57:45 am
teamplay & grouping effects & counters:
I very much like the concept of getting bonus for good teamplay.
The best example here atm is the shieldwall bonus.

How about:
- cavalary charge: 5+ cav in close proximity charging at the same target. They are getting resistance against the effect which would stop their horses.
- pikewall: 5+ pikes increase the possibility to stop horses or even oneshot them
- raining arrows: archery volleys(only in strategus?)

and some others which maybe a bit more arguable:
- flanking dmg: if you outnumber someone 2+:1 you deal additional damage
- last stand: if you are outflanked, your adrenaline kicks in and you get a speed bonus weapon speed and athletics.
- throwers menace: having 5+ throwers in a group increases their throwing speed
- whirlwind: 5+ 2h getting athletics bonus

Nope. No strange bonus when playing in team.
At the moment, if you don't play with teamwork, then you'll be useless. That's how it is already, and that forces people to play smart.
The "i'm flanking alone because i'm so good" is not a valid tactic anymore.
Only valid tactic is sticking with 4-5 other teammates.



All in all, a little conclusion :
-Disadvantages for lv31+ : Yes, cause that's what wants the devs, mainly lv1-30 players.
-Polestagger and crushthrough issue : No. Don't try to bite something bigger than you. If there's pikemens or maulers, remember that range can shoot thoses down. So maybe... protect the range ? Or use infantry teamwork too.
-Range, cav nerf : No, teamwork is necessary to counter a "team" of them. That's how it's supposed to be.
-Shielder buff, cause can't kill a group of archer alone : No, you're doing it wrong.
-Special "moves" : No. Just... no.
Title: Re: lvl30+,ranged,cav,special attacks,teamplay
Post by: Cup1d on March 25, 2012, 03:01:52 pm
Quote from: kinngrimm on March 25, 2012, 01:24:45 pm
@Cup1d, change the names to your liking, the point was to improve via bonuses, gratifications, insentives certain forms of teamplay, if you have a better suggestion let them hear us or be silent.

Sorry dude, I can't be silent if you propose to nerf one kind of teamplay but buff another. It's not a suggestion, even as joke it's looking strange enough.

Quote
so when do we get a sheatable bamboo spear/awlpike?

Awlpike is sheatable, what else you need? Another onehitting weapon that can be used with shield?

Quote
Because of this i often go out now in very light gear as i feel not that big of a difference in armor values when facing cav. 9 generations spent on looming gear ... puff.

You know, people use market at this case.


Quote
Going out in the flanks was sometimes just a pain. You face 5-7 archers in a group and you get bumped(at least) by cav better even by HA ^^. Bump&Shot, effective true but very annoying.
So as a dedicated shielder, where in his job description stands "hunt ranged because you have a shield", there is no way getting near them on open field and if there is cover you find to sneak up on them, you can get lucky with 1-2 and then get shot to pieces  now imagine guys who don't even have a shield.

So what? If you prefer to be lone flanking hero - than face consequences. Organise some shielders and move as «shieldwall», you'll have more chances. Flankers always was a target for ranged and cavalry.
Title: Re: lvl30+,ranged,cav,special attacks,teamplay
Post by: kinngrimm on March 25, 2012, 03:05:22 pm
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1. At the time i was starting to go for maximum lvl, there wasn't the information out that you couldn't get any smithing skills anymore, this was made public and/or came clear to me when i was already lvl 34
2. Not able to get something i already worked for on an alt char but others do, and those others at a later time still will be able to go for max lvl and again this wasn't the case at the time i choose to go for max lvl
3. Yes my choice to go for max level and my choice to call the way it is handled with max lvl not even not fair, if you feel that is whining then just don't listen to it.

(click to show/hide)
it needs work for sure, but not more complicated then other changes

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but but but , it can't be (actually this line of yours really made me smile)

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so something like shield bonus is not a good thing, when in shieldwall?
my first 2 suggestions i think would contribute and encourage teamplay
One of the biggest advantages of armored cavalary was that they were more or less able to chrush through ennemy lines. But that is not possible with polearms stopping them all the time. So when there are at least 5 cav players and they manage to ride in line formation into f.e. the flak of an opponent, then the abbility to ignore "holds/stops" to their horses would be really good for teamplay efforts. People would need to concider to change their main facing and when you get the shieldwall infront those horses less dmg is done. If you include the pikewall(just a name choose sth else if you dont like it) then these maybe the perfect counter against such a cavalary charge.
Title: Re: lvl30+,ranged,cav,special attacks,teamplay
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 25, 2012, 03:09:29 pm
i would like to add to cav, their retarded shield forcefield. how many times i threw/hit a cav in the back while he was not moving only to hear the noise of the shield
Title: Re: lvl30+,ranged,cav,special attacks,teamplay
Post by: Vibe on March 25, 2012, 03:13:58 pm
Quote from: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 25, 2012, 03:09:29 pm
i would like to add to cav, their retarded shield forcefield. how many times i threw/hit a cav in the back while he was not moving only to hear the noice of the shield

Word, the shield covers like 75% of the horse, it's fucking ridiculous
Title: Re: lvl30+,ranged,cav,special attacks,teamplay
Post by: kinngrimm on March 25, 2012, 03:19:48 pm
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I didn't propose to nerf archers in the way i mentioned above, i asked if that had been done?

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i just checked and no it is not sheatable. I have stated on several accounts, that i agree to a damage nerf on awlpike, but not on the removing the "sheatable" attribute. And to the question if "i" need one more onehitting weapon, how about not making this about myself or you but the things in question? Sheatability is not likely to be the way to make a weapon a oneshotting weapon anyways ^^

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in another thread (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,28334.0.html) Kaffein and myself came to the conclusion the marketplace deosn't work for these cases.

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Again i don't think this is about me and my playstyle, if you want to make it about that then i suggest to discontinue any arguments here.
Title: Re: lvl30+,ranged,cav,special attacks,teamplay
Post by: Bulzur on March 25, 2012, 03:49:02 pm
Quote from: kinngrimm on March 25, 2012, 03:05:22 pm
1. At the time i was starting to go for maximum lvl, there wasn't the information out that you couldn't get any smithing skills anymore, this was made public and/or came clear to me when i was already lvl 34
2. Not able to get something i already worked for on an alt char but others do, and those others at a later time still will be able to go for max lvl and again this wasn't the case at the time i choose to go for max lvl
3. Yes my choice to go for max level and my choice to call the way it is handled with max lvl not even not fair, if you feel that is whining then just don't listen to it.
Point 1 is valid. But you did know that the devs wanted people to stay under lv31. And the smith skill is at the moment pretty broken. So much luck based. I retired for it, and only need 200k more, and still haven't got it. While i got it 3 times on my alt in two days...
Point 2 is invalid. At the beginning, nobody could. Then, because there was a huge demand, devs accepted to give us a bone. But they didn't want to see all the play-a-lot people to suddenly come with a lot of heirlooms, and still stay high level. So they made it so, at the beginning, you had to be level 1, wich means retiring, to get thoses heirlooms from alt. Then, it was changed. So yes, you didn't know about it at first, but you didn't "want" it either, since you didn't thought about it, so it's not really a loss since it didn't existed in the first place.  Instead of it being a disadvantage for lv31+, it's just an advantage for retiring. That's all.
Point 3.  Yep. Not a lot of people can even dream of being lv34. Yet, here you are, and still unsatisfied. That's... whining.^^
Quote from: kinngrimm on March 25, 2012, 03:05:22 pm
but but but , it can't be (actually this line of yours really made me smile)
:mrgreen:

Quote from: kinngrimm on March 25, 2012, 03:05:22 pm
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Shield bonus is good, because it doesn't add any deadlyness ! It's a pure defence bonus, for only the shield. It's in no way game breaking. Adding a special unbreakable charge for horses IS gamebreaking. Adding an athletic bonus is game breaking.


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Title: Re: lvl30+,ranged,cav,special attacks,teamplay
Post by: Zandieer on March 25, 2012, 05:06:25 pm
Quote from: Vibe on March 25, 2012, 03:13:58 pm
Word, the shield covers like 75% of the horse, it's fucking ridiculous
Word.
Title: Re: lvl30+,ranged,cav,special attacks,teamplay
Post by: kinngrimm on March 25, 2012, 06:01:56 pm
and i just noticed, i didn't ment sheatable but going with a shield, my mistake

Quote from: Bulzur on March 25, 2012, 03:49:02 pm
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it is an advantage for those who actually can use them, so 2 more looms are stuck on an alt which i rarely play anymore, would i decide to retire i could have them and then go to max lvl, being on lvl 34 in a few months time, that wouldn't make a difference for you but for me it does.

(click to show/hide)
the points you call here are suggestions, if you would have called me on the chrushthrough and polestagger some may put it in the way that a shielder like me would be subjectivly whinning but in these things you mentioned i honestly jsut tried to get some idears out to perhaps give some impulse for development.


(click to show/hide)
[sarcasm]i always love it when others tell me how i should do things[/sarcasm]
so i am very sry that it took me only 4 days of around 8h playing time to come to my conclusions.
To address your suggestions anyways, at the time those teammates start giving a shit who they hit and seeing who is in front of them, paying attention to their sorroundings then this would be an option, but since i started this game in 2010, this has never been the case.
So i stay on the flanks, alone or not i don't care, overrun by hords of horses i don't, shot to peaces i don't care, run down by a mobster idon't fuckin care, but when you feel a sharp sting in your neck and wonder why you are dead suddenly, it could have been me  :twisted:
Title: Re: lvl30+,ranged,cav,special attacks,teamplay
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 25, 2012, 06:12:13 pm
The reason why level 30+ characters lose so many "bells and whistles" that normal characters have is because the Devs want to discourage you from leveling that high.

I have to say the levels alone are powerful enough as is.
Title: Re: lvl30+,ranged,cav,special attacks,teamplay
Post by: Kafein on March 25, 2012, 06:32:28 pm
Quote from: Tears of Destiny on March 25, 2012, 06:12:13 pm
I have to say the levels alone are powerful enough as is.

This.

The increase in heirloom prices is no mystery, "nobody" retires anymore. If anything should be done, it's buffing retirement.
Title: Re: lvl30+,ranged,cav,special attacks,teamplay
Post by: kinngrimm on March 25, 2012, 06:41:22 pm
Quote from: Tears of Destiny on March 25, 2012, 06:12:13 pm
The reason why level 30+ characters lose so many "bells and whistles" that normal characters have is because the Devs want to discourage you from leveling that high.

I have to say the levels alone are powerful enough as is.
and because of that, there are soft&hardcaps in leveling, points which rarely any player reaches if at all. This alone makes it difficutly, impossible for players to create a total out of balance character, you could play like 10years and wouldn't reach 37, you can play some years and perhaps reach 36, half a year to 2 years to 35,

And that is all good that you just can't outlevel others, what i am speakin of aren't these things if you read this first paragraph of me closely in the first post, there you will find that that is something i may find tiresoem but still agree on that it is needed.

But come on, not being able to craft shit in strategus in the same ways like those who just will go for max lvl somewhat later ... I made several suggestions how to solve that problem before this threat, in the developer section in the suggestion area, not once has any developer said anything against those, look them up, you are a forum freak as i understand Tears ;) no offence.

Also not being able to get the "time" out an alt i don't play, but just need to wait some months longer till i grinded the gold to buy me the other stuff ... this is smalltime

And well, in one of my first suggestions ever, i already stated it would be great to change the build at anytime. Fuck the restriction on classes, mix how you want at anytime you want. Make a new character build tomorrow, one the next day afterwards, hourly if you have to, save those you like and when you need them for strategus to be load that class build for that situation, load it, be it and be done with it afterwards. That way we could have in strategus a close to perfect attack/defence army, therefor it will get more interesting, you would be able to plan out battles even more with strategies really dependent on the map/castle/village/gear ...
Man in my mind it is totally narrowminded to make alts at all, i play so get better over time, i play and i get therefor exp on my char, why would i need to have to go through all the generations again with another toon? Where is the disadvantage to have only one character who would then need to make generation for every type of weapon for any class that player wants to be geared up in?
Now i am kinngrimm with 2h or polarm getting my ass handed, then i am kinngrimm the Horsearcher my old friend, then the shielder ... why alts ... and don't try to reason here, no deal.

People something you need to get about me, i am not for more restrictions, but to enable players as much as possible,
i hate user interfaces which take one click more then needed, rules which aren't clear by logic and then therefor aren't descriped in depth with their reasons. One more thing if you really think i am that shallow that i only look out for my class, that only shows me that you don't know jack shit about me and i can be done with whatever you say with less concern as well.
Title: Re: lvl30+,ranged,cav,special attacks,teamplay
Post by: kinngrimm on March 25, 2012, 06:43:08 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 25, 2012, 06:32:28 pm
This.

The increase in heirloom prices is no mystery, "nobody" retires anymore. If anything should be done, it's buffing retirement.
well buff retirement, sure, but make it smart, so that those who go for max level don't need to feel like they miss out on something, it shouldn't be a choice between pest and cholara or Haven and Hell ^^ some may like the later