cRPG
cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Dravic on March 08, 2011, 07:42:55 pm
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Just keep in mind that athletics doesn't make you run faster, only accelerate to top speed faster. A guy in plate with 2 athletics can run as fast as a naked guy with 10 athletics in a straight line, so keep that in mind if you make a character like that.
Lot of weird stuff happened in the patch that was mostly eliminated by the level cap anyways, but ah well. I was thinking of making a thread to reinstate athletics increase your top speed... You have to understand that it was done to prevent archers who kited and could still kill people in a few shots. That isn't possible as of the damage & speed nerf to archery anymore... But oh well.
You may be more inclined to have more strength than that, is all I am saying. *fun fact: 13 athletics and you are always at your top speed! You can dance in combat if you are OK with having 3 strength lol.
Is all this text true?
Well, I know that red part isnt true, im sure, because ive compared my run when i had 0 athl 13 pt and black armor to a guy with 0 athl too, but in heraldic.
however, im not sure about rest. And if it was "implemented" (tho i think word "nerfed" fits a bit better), it was implemented in cRPG only or in Warband generally by devs?
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Hmm.
I think that athletic does not influence the maximum run speed a lot(but it does). Moreover it reduces weightpenalties.
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The extreme case of 0 ath black armor can almost never achieve his own top speed due to the increasing penalty to acceleration of both weight and lack of athletics.
I invite you to test it however you like, I know for a fact that with 2 athletics I ran just as fast as The_Mayor_BRD's 13 athletics in a straight line, it is only the acceleration to top speed that increases. (example: we both start at same time, he gets 15 feet ahead, and at that time I reach my max speed and will maintain a 15 feet gap for the entire duration. as he achieved max speed before I did.)
Don't get it wrong, it is still useful in combat because you can dance out of people's reach on their swings and be able to step in to hit.
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The extreme case of 0 ath black armor can almost never achieve his own top speed due to the increasing penalty to acceleration of both weight and lack of athletics.
Do you have approximate times or distances that characters must run to reach their top speeds?
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Do you have approximate times or distances that characters must run to reach their top speeds?
No, but if you would like to do some official testing to find out, I'd love to help as empirical evidence is indisputable.
I'm sure anyone in BRD will help you record times with various weights/athletics values as to when they achieve full run speed and the distance it requires.
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If athl doenst increase your top speed than it sure decreases the weight penalty cause fact is that you can run faster with a high athl character on top speed than lower athl characters with comparable gear. I use it as a tactic to distract groups of enemy infantrymen by letting them chase me, giving the rest of my team a numerical advantage.
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i remain unconvinced. when i dicked around with a 11 athletics build i could kite people well enough to reload my xbow and then shoot them, and then repeat. also, i have never felt like i was moving very fast with a lower athletics character regardless of how long i ran in a straight line, whereas with 8+ athletics you notice that you move fast. anyways ill test it with you some time if you want... but im sure athletics ups your max speed.
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If you'r talking about a flat ground maybe athletics wont change your max speed but there's always some hills/rocks/rivers/miniholes/minihills/etc... which will decrease your speed and then you'll have to accelerate again to reach your max speed again. So with 2 athletics in most of map you will never reach your max speed (even more if you'r dancing to dodge arrows), that mean you are often in an accelerate state then you will be faster with more athletics =x.
By the way maybe with 13 athletics you can be faster on flat ground doing a bunny jumping =p.
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I guess that 15 athletics would be 100% faster by bunny jumping, but not sure about 13 athletics ;x
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Sorry Marathon, you are completely incorrect.
I already did a study on Athletics on the original Talesworld forum back in the day.
The results are here:
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,136032.msg3275181.html#msg3275181
A nice tidbit that I wrote afterwards is...
"Also of interesting note, the distance was a fairly short one. When accelerating, the character is much slower than their top speed. You tin cans running around probably don't notice it as much, but us light armor people are much slower on the start than when we really hit our max speed. Therefore, you can also conclude that for longer distances, the difference between Athletics 9 and Athletics 8 will also be greater.
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As someone that has studied athletics thoroughly, I can assure you that when I'm running full speed in light armor chasing an archer who has less athletics but also in light armor, I will eventually catch up to the archer.
The biggest thing that irks high Athletics is Rain.
Rain seems to put a cap on how fast you can run.
Oh, and to give you the percentile difference, at full speed each athletics point = 5% faster move speed while naked. This was tested with the same AGI (because it was believed back then that AGI also effected move speed, which it still might, so I did the study with the same AGI).
However, the effect is still lessened greatly by armor; A Tin Can with 7 Athletics is not going to move any faster than a Tin Can with 2 Athletics
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When people turn, or shift from a straight line in any way they partially decelerate, same thing if they go at all uphill. You are catching up to them because you maintain top speed longer, but I have seen this tested before and post-patch running in a straight line both people running hit the same top max speed it just takes me longer in full plate with 1 athletics then the amyor in 13 athletics, but if we don't change directions we at some point reach the same top speed. Pre-patch, yes athletics added 5% to top speed, which I loved and though was awesome with 14 athletics.
I guess chadz didn't like archers running away turning and shooting his tin can programmers/admins who couldn't keep up with their 100% pure strength builds. With level cap, slow draw speed, and 3 archer nerfs this really isn't a problem anymore. However, with the combination of the soft wpf cap and the loss of top speed benefit from athletics it really makes no sense anymore not to build a character with more strength than agility. This is an imbalance that should be fixed. At the very least weight of armor should damage your top speed.
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Kesh, you have no proof that this was ever changed. Unless a dev somewhere said "Athletics was nerfed" then I seriously doubt they put extra effort into programming a ninja nerf.
On my study, I showed the difference in speed between 8 and 9 athletics while naked running on flat ground.
When naked, as in, 0 weight, there is no acceleration time, you hit top speed instantly. Even with extremely light armor such as a robe and a light weapon, you hit top speed nearly instantly.
The difference between the athletics while naked is purely based on top speed.
The reason why athletics doesn't "feel" as fast as it used to is because everyone is wearing medium armor where it doesn't make that much of a difference. There were more peasants and tin cans back then so you could feel the difference in speed. (Peasants with low athletics skill and tin cans who are slow anyway).
If you truly think you can keep up with Mayor when it is not raining (read above, raining decreases move speed), then go ahead and try.
I know I've raced Mayor in clear weather with my 9 athletics vs. his 13 athletics both wearing very light gear and not only did I obviously lose but he consistently pulled further away. (He didn't realize I was racing him most likely because I was far behind him trying to keep up).
There are many factors people don't realize that slow a character down that I've just started to dabble in.
For instance, holding a Steel Pick makes you move substantially slower (yes top speed) than holding a Side sword, even though the weight difference is only 1. Why is this? I don't know. Its the same thing with a pike, you can have a pike and a similar weight polearm, switch to the pike, and you are moving slower. As soon as you switch to the other one, you move faster. Even if the weights are the same.
To clarify:
People who wear medium or greater armor don't notice the differences because they are too small. But those of us that have always played Light armor or less high Athletics characters can see the minute differences between changing gear, or shields, or weapons.
I've even noticed a difference carrying around a 1h sword (Side sword) + Buckler, with a total weight of 3.8 vs. an Iron Staff with a total weight of 2.0; Guess which was slower? The iron staff.
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Here's an easy test.
Make a character, level 1 with zero athletics race against a 7 athletics character both while naked on the same flat terrain. Watch the 7 ath character consistently pull away even at long distance.
Edit: I'll do the tests when I get off work later if no one else does. I have two characters perfect for the situation and the current duel map has a center path that makes for easy marking and consistency. Its just a shame that I had to debunk the 7.5 rumor back in the day and now I have to debunk a new one.
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Kesh, you have no proof that this was ever changed. Unless a dev somewhere said "Athletics was nerfed" then I seriously doubt they put extra effort into programming a ninja nerf.
On my study, I showed the difference in speed between 8 and 9 athletics while naked running on flat ground.
When naked, as in, 0 weight, there is no acceleration time, you hit top speed instantly. Even with extremely light armor such as a robe and a light weapon, you hit top speed nearly instantly.
The difference between the athletics while naked is purely based on top speed.
The reason why athletics doesn't "feel" as fast as it used to is because everyone is wearing medium armor where it doesn't make that much of a difference. There were more peasants and tin cans back then so you could feel the difference in speed. (Peasants with low athletics skill and tin cans who are slow anyway).
If you truly think you can keep up with Mayor when it is not raining (read above, raining decreases move speed), then go ahead and try.
I know I've raced Mayor in clear weather with my 9 athletics vs. his 13 athletics both wearing very light gear and not only did I obviously lose but he consistently pulled further away. (He didn't realize I was racing him most likely because I was far behind him trying to keep up).
There are many factors people don't realize that slow a character down that I've just started to dabble in.
For instance, holding a Steel Pick makes you move substantially slower (yes top speed) than holding a Side sword, even though the weight difference is only 1. Why is this? I don't know. Its the same thing with a pike, you can have a pike and a similar weight polearm, switch to the pike, and you are moving slower. As soon as you switch to the other one, you move faster. Even if the weights are the same.
To clarify:
People who wear medium or greater armor don't notice the differences because they are too small. But those of us that have always played Light armor or less high Athletics characters can see the minute differences between changing gear, or shields, or weapons.
I've even noticed a difference carrying around a 1h sword (Side sword) + Buckler, with a total weight of 3.8 vs. an Iron Staff with a total weight of 2.0; Guess which was slower? The iron staff.
THANK YOU!
This actually reinforces what I've started a thread about and been mentioning to people in-game for a while now since the patch as it pertains to athletics and strength builders. I've been swearing up and down that my 8! athletics does not seem to give me much of a tangible benefit while wearing medium armor vs those strength build players (Goretooth, Cyranule, etc) who wear heavier armor than I do. I knew I wasn't going crazy.
If you don't mind I'm going to add your comments here to the thread I made about it as well. I made the claim that I don't see much value in raising athletics past 4 (MAYBE 5) if you're going to wear lameller/tunic over mail or higher armor.
I'm also surprised about your findings when it comes to the weapons, even if they have lower weight than another weapon.
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The proof s in the pudding, try it out for yourself, top speed is same across the board, only thing that changes is acceleration rate.
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Zen is absolutely right about how it used to be, but it has definitely changed.
me on Daughter_of_Mayor_BRD at level 8 with 3 athletics in the exact same gear as The_Mayor_BRD with 13 athletics ran the -exact-same-speed so long as we did not decelerate with changing directions/uneven terrain. (our total weight of gear = 2.3) Now with Daughter having 8 athletics I still have the same top speed, maintain side by side with him, until we start dodging arrows and I slowly fall behind.
Athletics gives functionally faster movement by maintaining top speed more, but the top speed is no longer increased by athletics. I very much so invite you to test this with us, zen.
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When I wear armor I'm slow as hell ._.
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When I wear armor I'm slow as hell ._.
Well yes, as you are weighed down you will accelerate much slower and are going to lose more speed in turns/terrain.
If it is rather heavy and you aren't running in a straight line for a while, you may not reach top speed with a low athletics character often.
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Zen is absolutely right about how it used to be, but it has definitely changed.
me on Daughter_of_Mayor_BRD at level 8 with 3 athletics in the exact same gear as The_Mayor_BRD with 13 athletics ran the -exact-same-speed so long as we did not decelerate with changing directions/uneven terrain. (our total weight of gear = 2.3) Now with Daughter having 8 athletics I still have the same top speed, maintain side by side with him, until we start dodging arrows and I slowly fall behind.
Athletics gives functionally faster movement by maintaining top speed more, but the top speed is no longer increased by athletics. I very much so invite you to test this with us, zen.
If this is true then it is a big shame. Agi was already nerfed to hell by the awful wpf scaling so they no longer swing much faster than str heroes.
Still it would explain why my prepatch ninja build feels so much weaker than it did before, if im not actually faster. Im about to test it in an hour because I have characters at 0, 5, and 9 athletics. Really hoping there wasn't a nerf. Still the weapon difference i'm really curious on, because the difference between 1 weight on a weapon feels like a 10 armor difference
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Can we get a dev to confirm or deny that anything has changed with athletics? Because currently, in your "newbie guide" that is stickied in these forums, it claims athletics increases running speed. If you want to keep exact mechanics a secret, fine, but don't purposely spread misinformation.
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Ok, I did some test runs. Good news and bad news:
First, the situation. I originally was going to choose the NA Duel server because it is always on arena, believing the center part of the arena where you run through the circle would be perfect. However, it turned out there was a couple of small hills outside of the circle that slowed down the character so had to scrap that.
Therefore, I chose the EU duel server which is on the Ruins map, and found a flat area that had easy markings.
The route:
Starting slightly uphill behind the "rocks" and running in between the tree trunk and rocks straight towards the animal bones. The downhill part was the acceleration room and I did not start the stopwatch until I passed the tree trunk so I would be at top speed. (It turns out a character with 0 athletics still needs a little bit of acceleration time even while completely naked).
Now, this route was flat after top speed was hit, and the stopwatch was hit as soon as the animal bones were touched. This way acceleration was taken out of the picture and it was pure top speed.
I ran 10 times each at an athletics of 0, 5, and 9. Dropped the highest and lowest to account for human error, and averaged them.
The average of the 0 athletics character was: 19.03
The average of the 5 athletics character was: 15.80
The average of the 9 athletics character was: 13.65
So the good news is, athletics still effects top speed (at least while naked). However two things of note. It is definately nerfed. The speed difference between 5 and 9 athletics is only about 15%, where before it would be 25%. Also, this is naked. The speed difference goes down exponentially with weight. Wearing even light armor, I bet there would be barely any difference. Wearing medium armor, none.
Before, it was already bad enough that armor effected athletics so harshly. Now, unless you plan on running around naked with a practice knife, you likely wont be any faster than the next guy.
I would still like to see the differences between equipping different weapons. Still...9 athletics is certainly not as blazingly fast as it used to be.. oh how I miss those days.
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Did you mind agility? I think it also was an impact on runspeed.
Personally, I think it is okay, that athletic is nerved, because runspeed is a huge advantage.
It seems ridiculous: When I kamikazeattack as peasent I REALLY get a better k/d ration, when I am fully equipped(+medium Armour + shield + Wardarts)
Sure I probably die within the first minute, but often I can rack up ~7 kills and start the battle leading the scoreboard.
When I play more defensivly I end up on kill ration like 5/4 after severayl rounds.
Running speed is a huge advantage!
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Separated this post because it is a segue into another topic.
So.. about that AGI.
Now that Walt-F4 has proven that AGI has no passive benefit at all (he proved that AGI doesn't effect attack speed, and WPF does but you don't see much of a difference unless you are 100 points higher than someone else). It also certainly doesn't effect move speed, as my 0 athletics character has 3 AGI and my 9 athletics character has 27. In my prepatch study, I had both tests done with the same AGI (27), and increased my athletics from 8 to 9 in the middle of the test with a 5% increase. If AGI effects movespeed now, it would be much more noticeable with a difference of 3-27.
Anyway...what I'm saying is AGI is too nerfed.
Athletics barely does anything except increase your maneuverability a bit, and if you wear medium armor or better you probably wont even notice.
Weapon Master scales so horribly at higher WPF that your 170 WPF up against his 130 WPF will barely make a difference, and as Walt showed the AGI difference means nothing.
Shield is hypothetically useful, unless that was also nerfed (in native every shield skill point increased damage resistance by 10% and coverage by 10) We know the "force field" coverage was nerfed, but hopefully the damage resistance remains.
Riding is a little useful, but could probably be used for more power strike, and of course its only for cavs.
Horse Archery I cant comment on, as I don't play horse archers (tried it once, didn't like it and early retired).
Yes, we can all agree AGI 2h spammers prepatch were very powerful. But now, AGI is so killed that you might as well go full strength with power strike/power draw/power throw and iron flesh, because no other skill makes a tangible difference. (Not including riding for cavs).
AGI needs some love back.
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Did you mind agility? I think it also was an impact on runspeed.
If it does then Athletics is even worse nerfed. In my prepatch study I kept AGI at a constant 27 for both tests (Athletics 8 and 9). In this test, I had AGI 3 up against AGI 27. If AGI made a difference in movespeed but the combination of the 24 AGI difference and 9 athletic skill points difference was only 30% (while naked), then that is pretty bad.
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Agility increases your top speed. I don't know if athletics increases top speed as well, but in my mind, its main function is to increase acceleration/maneuverability/whatever you want to call it.
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Thank you guys for all those posts you made in this thread, generally now i know that athletics was either nerfed or it was so weak from the start, anyway, the most important thing for me is if my 11 athl build for next gen will be viable, and now i know that it will be. Thank you.
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have to fix my post...
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A good way to test athletics is to find a flat area and start running on a character with say 3 athletics and then have a 12+ athletics character waiting at where you'll have for sure hit top speed to run beside you. You'll see what me and BRD have observed -- You run THE SAME top speed.
The NA maps have some certain cav maps that are completely flat fields that are good for testing this on, because I think ruins is just enough to slow characters down a bit. But yes, athletics does give functionally faster speed but very little.
Either way, athletics was nerfed for sure and definitely does not give a 5% speed bonus anymore.
We need more testing (or a dev post with the formula)
I may be wrong, but this seems way slow now compared to pre-patch as well.
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Bshit. I can outrun my whole team usually even if they are ninjas with light armor and high athletics. I have 10ath and you do run faster than others then. Liars everywhere...
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Bshit. I can outrun my whole team usually even if they are ninjas with light armor and high athletics. I have 10ath and you do run faster than others then. Liars everywhere...
If you read the thread, you would know that you can outrun everyone with both scenarios of how athletics works. So please, do before posting.
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If you really want to test whether or not athletics increases your top speed, you'll need two characters, one with a high (let's say 30) agility and 10 athletics, and one with 30 agility and 0 athletics. Start the timer at a given spot while they're both at full sprint. If you time it from when they start running, your data will not prove anything because athletics increases acceleration.
I'm far too lazy to do this myself, and don't feel like figuring out a reliable way to record the data accurately. I just like setting my agility to 1000 or something in singleplayer and zooming around like The Flash, or setting my strength to 3000 and hitting the damage cap with punches. This isn't as much fun.
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Playing around with various weights today seemed to effect top speed.
When I keep pace with the mayor we are using the exact same gear [total weight = 2.3]
But, for example lets say I grab a ladder. My entire top speed is lowered, not just the time it takes to reach it. Carrying a ladder with 9 ath i can't go as fast as a medium armored 0 ath guy, hardly close to it.
I ran side by side with another character that had 9 ath, but he had a shield and more gear and he ran slower at full speed than me.
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh I really would like to know what is going on exactly with movement speed.
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If you really want to test whether or not athletics increases your top speed, you'll need two characters, one with a high (let's say 30) agility and 10 athletics, and one with 30 agility and 0 athletics. Start the timer at a given spot while they're both at full sprint. If you time it from when they start running, your data will not prove anything because athletics increases acceleration.
I'm far too lazy to do this myself, and don't feel like figuring out a reliable way to record the data accurately. I just like setting my agility to 1000 or something in singleplayer and zooming around like The Flash, or setting my strength to 3000 and hitting the damage cap with punches. This isn't as much fun.
I'm your man ;)
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I'm your man ;)
now all we need is a 5pd HA with 30agi no ath, anyone?
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Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 15
Agility: 30
Hit points: 50
Converted: 20
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 0
Shield: 0
Athletics: 0
Riding: 1
Horse Archery: 5
Power Draw: 5
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 0
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 1
Archery: 113
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1
Impossible :)
However:
For grinders with 20+ gen:
Level 33 (35 569 612 xp)
Strength: 15
Agility: 30
Hit points: 50
Converted: 14
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 0
Shield: 0
Athletics: 0
Riding: 4
Horse Archery: 5
Power Draw: 5
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 6
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 1
Archery: 159
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1
For normal players:
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 7
Agility: 30
Hit points: 42
Converted: 4
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 2
Shield: 0
Athletics: 0
Riding: 10
Horse Archery: 5
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 10
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 190
Throwing: 1
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not sure what you are trying to say dravec this thread is about athletics,
but on your topic about HA builds,
my idea for a lvl 30 HA is:
12str
30agi
4pd - masterwork khergit w/ sharp bodkins
3riding - champion steppe horse
5ha -
5wm - a bit low but can't do anything about it.
I think horsearchers with 4 HA skill are superior at level 30 but I would still like to try it
I need to get to work on the heirlooms
my best HA since patch has been
15str
24 agi
5pd
6riding
8wm
4ha
was topping the scores with this one. but since it was pure HA it was hard to play on bad HA maps