cRPG

Strategus => Strategus General Discussion => Topic started by: Garem on March 21, 2012, 03:59:51 pm

Title: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Garem on March 21, 2012, 03:59:51 pm
Author's Comments: I've been dissatisfied with what Strategus has become, compared to what I'm confident it could be, for quite some time. Multiplayer version of Singleplayer? Count me in! But that's not what it became.

So I talked with a lot of different people with a lot of different ideas. None of us agreed on everything, but that's a good thing. Several diverse ideas and opinions have gone into this.

Then, I wrote this. It's a proposal for change-- big changes. Not everything, of course. A lot of things in Strategus work great. If it's not mentioned here, it's safe to assume that we like it as-is.

However, I never wrote this to be my proposal but instead the place to begin for many minds to read it. I figure that it's about as ready as it'll ever be. It's very long and thorough, so fair warning. Take your time. Read it all, think about it all. Each piece is designed with the rest in mind. Use your imagination to see how these features would interact. Then talk about it. Feel free to "Sign On", too.

If you want to chat, you're welcome to contact me on Steam or via PM on these forums.

Hope this sparks something interesting. Cheers!

-----

Mission Statement: To develop a proposal for an equitable strategy game to compliment cRPG including aspects of territory warfare, resource management, exploration, and player environment control for both independent and clan-based play.

Preface: Everything within this proposal is variable- from production rates to battle systems. This is merely a design proposal to give a rough idea. Our mathematicians are creating formulas to ensure balance. We'll base our final numbers on these results.

---

Theories and Assumptions:

Balance

Balance will be achieved through negative feedback systems. We will not rely on trust or theories of human behavior.

Action will be rewarded above inaction.

Resources

Resources will be measured by the players in hard numbers.
For developmental purposes, we will look at resources as a figure of Time.
For example, assume we want a village to take 25 hours of play to earn. If Silver is made at an average rate of 500 per hour, the hard cost of a village will be (25 hours * 500 silver = 12500 silver).

Although resources are created, mostly, by cRPG playtime we wish to avoid two specific and foreseeable problems:
(1) Account sharing
(2) Incentivizing unhealthy play

Both issues can be mostly resolved by a per-day limitation to playtime. Cap or diminishing returns styles would be appropriate.

-----

Topics Index

Mission Statement
Preface

1). Resources
-a. Troops
-b. Money
-c. Other Resources
-d. Trading
-e. Retainers

2. Fiefs and Fief Management
-a. Zendar
-b. Creation
---1. Types of Fiefs
---2. Improvements
-c. Fief Management/Improvement
-d. Resource Acquisition

3. Characters
-a. Attachment to cRPG, Character Locking
-b. Horizontal Development
-c. Moving Around
---1. Troop Upkeep
---2. Map Options
---3. Movement Speed
d. Losing Battles

4. Clans/Factions
-a. Leadership and Members
-b. Map Actions

5. Battle System
-a. Field Battles
-b. Sieges
---1. Attacking the Wall
---2. Waiting it Out
---3. Sallying Out
-c. After Fief Battles
---1. Looting
---2. Razing
---3. Claiming

6. Fief Design
-a. Associated Costs
-b. Limitations: Block Sets

7. Game Design
-a. Set Rounds
---1. Pre-Round Goals
-b. End-Round Results
---2. The Revealing

Conclusion
Short-Form Community Suggestion List
Signatories

-----

1. Resources

Resources are gained in two methods: by fief modifications and each cRPG tick. Resources can be gained both ways, and at changeable rates depending on a variety of factors. Most importantly, fief modifications will change the rates of production (sometimes a flat bonus, sometimes a rate bonus).

Flat bonuses give a set amount per hour, day, or week. These only come from Improvements.
Rate bonuses increase the rate of production, the rate being the amount of time in cRPG, to a maximum of 250 ticks per 20 hours. This is approximately five hours of playtime.

Resources are ALWAYS sent to the fief at which the character is bound! This will either be (1) the fief that the player is the master of or (2) the fief of the player's master, if that player is a retainer.

If the player has no fief and is not a retainer to another player, he will not produce any resources until he founds a fief.
Most fiefs will give a bonus to resource "Rate" bonuses.

All resources can be picked up by characters and moved around the Strategus map. They can also be bought and sold in the Markets of each town, the amount of buy offers or sell offers being limited by the Improvements of the fief.

1.a. Troops

Troops are acquired at a rate of 1 per in twenty cRPG ticks. In an hour of play, you'll create about three troops.

1.b. Money

Money is gained at an equal rate to that of cRPG. cRPG characters earn gold; Strategus characters gain silver.

1.c. Other Resources

Other resources are gained at a rate of 1 per twenty cRPG ticks, but only after the initial Improvement is built.
These resources are required to build certain improvements, and they tend to improve different aspects of the fiefs.
For most Improvements, multiple kinds of resources will be required, and virtually all of them will require Silver.

Wood: Used for economic Improvements
Iron: Used for military/offensive Improvements
Stone: Used defensive Improvements

More optional resources: grain, wool, food, oil, mercury, fish, livestock, etc.
-Foods may be used as a resource that drains over time for larger cities, or some other balancing utility. Small fiefs should be self-sufficient to help non-faction players.
-For simplicity's sake, Silver is better than food in the author's opinion. Growing food is for the peasants and helots; silver just pays for their wages (or for their oppression!).

1.d. Trading

Trading will be a great way to make money for independent players, although faction-based traders may find profitable business as well if wars don't get in the way. All commodities will be tradable, which will be a key way that different territories or areas with particularly large deposits of one resource but lacking in another can acquire it, profiting the middle men who take the risks of transport!

1.e. Retainers

Retainers are characters who are bound to the service of another. They cannot own a fief, but instead their production rate is added to their Master's total production, but only for Silver. Retainers do not produce troops and resources. This is a great way for players to get involved with Strategus without worrying about the management.

Retainers do not need to work for free. Retainers can be hired on and paid back a percentage of the Silver they make as cRPG Gold. This pay percentage can be as high as 50%. Better Retainers can demand higher pay.

Let's say you are a Retainer to Lord Bob at a pay rate of 10%. You play for three hours and make 5,000 cRPG Gold. Instead of making 5,000 Strategus Silver, plus troops and resources, you only produce the 5,000 silver, 90% of which goes to your Master and 10% of which is automatically converted into cRPG gold. Lord Bob gets 4,500 Strategus Silver, and you get a nice bonus of 500 cRPG gold for your hard work.

Independent players may also register as Retainers to any other player. Players in one faction may even register as Retainers to another faction's player.

---

2. Fiefs and Fief Management

Fiefs play a critical role in the game, and come with significant advantages to players who possess them. They range from camps to massive cities. Fiefs can be developed for different roles: siege/assault camps provide defensive support for armies at war but produce fewer resources than they take to build, while a castle may protect a large timber industry hub.

Some players may not want to have fiefs as they don't want to bother with managing a fief with the possibility of losing their hard-earned place on the map. More will be explained under Section "retainers" later, but this will be a viable option, also supplementing that player's cRPG gold.

ALL fiefs will be owned by players, except for one: Zendar.

2.a. Zendar, the Haven City

This neutral city will be the starting position of all players, and all fiefless players that lose in battle respawn at Zendar. Zendar cannot be conquered.

Zendar will be at the top center of the continent.

It will have a market essentially the same as the cRPG market.

2.b. Creation

All fiefs start as a Camp. Founding a Camp takes twenty-four hours to build, but costs nothing. Attacked Camps are field battles, but they do provide the player a means to start acquiring wealth and getting troops, including any resource rate bonuses for the area.

There can be only ONE fief per Grid.

You cannot tell the resource type and Rate Bonus of a Grid until it has a Camp; it then becomes visible to the owner of the Fief. Of course, trees, mountains, or cliffs on the map are pretty good indicators!
Prospecting/Explorering is a great career for quick-witted folks or those that don't mind traveling light. This career's profitability wanes as time progresses in a Strategus round, of course.

2.b.1. Types of Fiefs

Fiefs are not linearly developed- different aspects can be changed at different times. However, fiefs are given a "Type" based upon their basic type- this type changes the kind of battle map that the fief will use! Technically, these are the same as all other improvements, but they don't change anything about resources, just the appearance on the Strategus Map and the Battle Map.

Furthermore, the higher-end improvements require minimum threshholds of Fief Type. A Camp can't hold an Estate, for example, but a Village or a Castle can. You might consider the "type" to be the base development level.

The exact battle map used is randomly chosen out of the geographically appropriate set; this cannot be changed. You may also Design-A-Fief. More on this below.

Name - Strategus Map - Battle Map
Camp - Tent Icon - Random Geography-type Battle
-- Bandit Lairs are marked with a B; Siege Camps are marked with an S.
Village - Fief Icon - Fief Battle
Castle - Castle Icon - Castle Siege
City - City Icon - City Siege

2.b.2. Improvements

Type Improvements

Camp: Changes nothingness into a fief; little more than a claim to land.

--Special Camp Upgrades:
- Bandit Lair: The camp cannot be seen until a character moves on top of it. Changing from this type into any other type reveals it normally. It gains no benefit from Grid resource Rate Bonus. It otherwise acts like a normal Camp.
- Siege Camp: This camp allows for the construction of Siege equipment. Siege equipment cannot be moved- it stays at the camp, but can be used to besiege adjacent fiefs. It otherwise acts like a normal Camp.

Village: Changes a Camp fief into a Village fief; Camp Pre-req

Castle: Changes either a Camp fief or a Village fief; Camp Pre-req

City: Changes Castle into a City fief; Castle Pre-req


Storage Improvements - Increase Silver storage

(None): 10,000 Silver maximum

Cabin: 100,000 Silver maximum

House: 1,000,000 Silver maximum; Village Pre-req

Manor: 10,000,000 Silver maximum; Village Pre-req

Estate: 50,000,000 Silver maximum; Village Pre-req


Barrack Improvements - Increase Troop storage

Tents: No troop storage; gives "resident" troops -20% upkeep. This includes local Lord's personal army and any guests and retainers inside the fief.

Militia Huts: 200 Troops, -30% upkeep; Village Pre-req

Guard House: 450 Troops, -35% upkeep; Village Pre-req

Soldier Barracks: 1000 Troops, -40% upkeep; Castle Pre-req

Man-At-Arms Dormitory: 3,000 Troops, -50% upkeep; City Pre-req


Recruit Rate Bonus Improvements - Increases Troop Levy Rate Bonuses

Family Yurts: +10% Troops a day

Log Cabins: +15% Troops a day; Village Pre-req

Stone Houses: +20% Troops a day; Village Pre-req

Brick Homes: +25% Troops a day; Village Pre-req

Urban Apartments: +30% Troops a day; City Pre-req


Recruit Flat Bonus Improvements - Increases Troop Levy Flat Bonuses

Levy Beggar: +1 Troop a day; Village Pre-req

Street Caller: +3 Troops a day; Village Pre-req

Patriotic Rallies: +6 Troops a day; Village Pre-req

Propoganda Machine: +10 Troops a day; City Pre-req


Resource Rate Improvements - Increases Silver or Local Resource % Rate Bonus

Lumber Camp/Mining Camp/Stonecutter Huts: +10% resource rate

Sawmill/Smelter/Mason's Lodge: +20% resource rate; Village Pre-req


Resource Rate Improvements - Increases Silver or Local Resource Flat Bonus

Lumber Yard/Mineshaft/Rock Quarry: +1 Resource a day of whatever the grid's type

Lumber/Mining/Quarrying Business: +2 Resource a day; Village Pre-req

Lumber/Mining/Quarrying Company: +4 Resources a day; Village Pre-req


Market Improvements - Increases trade orders per fief (Lord always gets orders = total; true sum is double below)

Street Markets: One order

Market Stands: Two orders

Market Square: Four orders; Village Pre-req

Trading Hub: Eight orders; Village Pre-req

Emporium: Twenty orders;  City Pre-req


Finance Improvements - Increases the Rate Bonus for Silver earned

Chieftain's Hut: +10% Silver rate bonus

Mayor's Lodging: +20% Silver rate bonus; Village Pre-req

Tax Collector's Hall: +35% Silver rate bonus; Village Pre-req

Landlord's Mansion: +45% Silver rate bonus; City Pre-req


Other Improvements - Give fief bonuses but have no other category

Watchtower: Gives extra vision distance

Messenger Stables: Gives Lord vision from fief, even when afield

Scout's Tent: Divulges the resource rate bonus for adjoining territory

Blacksmith: Gives a 20% discount to buying arms and armor

Breeding Stables: Gives a 20% discount to horses

Training Grounds: Allows a character to Retrain once per month.

Palisade: Changes a Camp or Village's Battle Map into a small wooden fort. This upgrade makes no changes to Castles or Cities.

Architect's Dwelling: Allows the fief owner to design his own fief through the Fief Design system.



2.c. Fief Management/Improvement

Obviously, fiefs can significantly increase the wealth of a player with proper management and upgrades! However, the cost will be prohibitive to most players. A few dedicated players working together may be able to build a castle, but a city would take far too long to be cost effective. Strategic decisions must be made- a city with every improvement would either take massive player input in time and expense. If enemies come knocking down a flimsy village before a castle can be built, the juicy loot inside may be susceptible to raids. If every penny goes towards defense, the army may not be strong enough to repel a dedicated assault.

Improvements should reflect the offensive, defensive, and economic strategy that a clan intends to use- or a nice balance of them all.

However, Improvements CAN be destroyed by raiding parties if left unhindered. Only by making wise development decisions matched with cunning military strategy and tactics can you preserve your fiefs and claims!

The master of a fief may set limitations as to who may visit his fief (and benefit from that visit), such as: Faction members only, Independents Only, Certain Factions Only, Nobody but Owner.

He may also kick out individuals at any time.
If he is present in the fief or has stationed troops, he may attack any visitors he deems unsavory.

2.d. Resource Acquisition

An infinite amount of resources may be carried by a character. Large amounts will slow you down.
Fiefs will produce and store resources until capacity is filled. Equipment does not have a capacity limit, so spending money is always favorable, either to players in the local market or by purchasing equipment.

Resources can be acquired either by Flat Bonuses from Improvements, Rate Bonuses (base + modifiers), and from combat: caravan raids, army loot, and pillaging fiefs. No resources are gained by destroying fief improvements, however. No resources are safe from the victor, either: Silver, Equipment, Wood, Iron, Stone-- everything is looted by the victor.

A victor may also choose to take over conquered fiefs (although any former fief would become vacant and susceptible to immediately being taken). All former improvements remain.

-----

3. Characters

Characters are the avatars of the player in the world of Strategus. A player's interests in the world are either on their character or at their fief.

Characters are essentially the same in cRPG as they are in Strategus. However, Strategus characters are more limited.

Characters can carry infinite amounts of Silver and Equipment, but can only carry up to 1,000 Troops without the assistance of Perks.
Silver will never slow a character down, but too much equipment can cripple his ability to traverse the world.

3.a. Attachment to cRPG; Character Locking

They cannot level beyond 30, and automatically lock as cRPG characters level past this point. When a player retires his cRPG character, he gains a "locked" status on the Strategus, unless the character was already locked. You never have to worry about being unable to participate in Strategus merely because your character hasn't leveled up yet so long as you lock your character.

This system allows players to enjoy cRPG at their own pace, either by retiring or working up to level 34. Neither will provide a major benefit or hindrance to the player.

However, to use a particular character build in Strategus, you do have to play it through in cRPG to lock it.

Most importantly, characters (including alts) in cRPG are the primary method of resource production in Strategus by dictating the production rate.

Heirlooms may increase your ability to win cRPG games, and to hence to increase your production rate, but they have no other bearing in Strategus.


3.b. Horizontal Development and Perks

With the Locking system, Strategus characters do not develop vertically. However, they can still develop in different ways.

Characters receive perks/character upgrades for participation in battles; the ability to carry more troops and reduced upkeep are examples of this. These perks are hard to earn but permanent to the character for each Strategus round. They do not, however, give particularly large bonuses overall, they're merely small boosters as a reward for active participation.

Treble points are earned for initiating battles. Participating in a battle you initiate earns the initial bonus as well as the treble bonus, hence four points.

3.c. Moving Around

Characters move around the Strategus map. You can even set waypoints, if you're looking to avoid a certain area while you're traveling.

Unfortunately, Fog of War prevents you from knowing exactly what's ahead of you. Only terrain is visible- even fiefs you've visited before.

If you can't see a fief destination that you know is there (Bandit Camps, for example), you can simply move to the Grid where you know it is located and check the Auto-Enter command. If no fief is present at the end location, you'll simply stand around unprotected, so make sure you know what you're walking into!

3.c.1. Troops and Upkeep

Characters can only carry up to 1000 troops at once.
Troop upkeep costs at an exponentially increasing rate.

This can be modified by a myriad of factors, but the best way to reduce upkeep is to stay in a fief with an upkeep modifier from improvements.


3.c.2. Map Options

Characters can move around the map, enter fiefs in their Grid, set movement waypoints, and start a Camp in Grids without an existing Fief.

From the Strategus Map, players can also check a full income/expense report with every change being accounted for.

They can also make changes to their fief from afar, if their character is in the field.


3.c.3. Movement Speed

Character movement is determined by a four factors: Army size, Equipment weight, Horse Bonus, and Character Perks.

The larger the army, the slower it moves. 100 Troops will move slightly slower than 80 troops.

Equipment weight slows down at a per-troop basis. 100 Troops with 10 Weight apiece moves at roughly the same speed as 10 troops with 10 weight apiece.
Armies with siege equipment cannot move at all; no army can carry a siege tower. It must be built in a Siege Camp and used there, abandoned after use (or stolen in a counterattack!)
Horses provide a flat decrease to weight; horses count as eight troops for the weight ratio.

Lastly, character perks may modify the final calculation, giving a small bonus in speed.


3.d. Losing Battles

When a character loses a battle, he loses all of his troops, Silver, and equipment. The character is put into limbo for 12 hours when it is sent to the character's fief.

If the character does not have a fief, it is sent to a clan headquarters after 12 hours.

If the character has no fief and no clan headquarters, it is sent to Zendar after 12 hours.


-----

4. Clans/Factions

Clans/Factions play an integral role in the landscape of the Strategus map. Although fiefs are built by individuals, it is expected and encouraged that Clans form zones where they can cooperate and protect one another, as well as invite independent players in as merchants bringing goods they need. And, of course, everyone knows that information is power-- spy games will surely happen.

Although the emphasis will remain on factional conflict and teamwork, independent players should not fear factions so long as they mind their own business or bribe their way out of danger.

Lastly, all players may join the Zendar faction and defend the area around the Haven City, keeping the trade routes clear.
---Theoretical: NPC Bandits around Zendar?

4.a. Leadership and Members

All factions have four ranks. The ranks' names start as follows can be changed to be more appropriate; the powers are set.

King - There is only one. The King can give and strip ranks; he can also change the rank names. The King's fief is the "Faction Headquarters". If the King changes fiefs, this becomes the new HQ. The King can accept faction members, expel members, and set battle rosters.

Lord - These are the faction administrators. They can set battle rosters and accept members.

Vassal - These are standard faction members. They have no particular powers, but can hold fiefs.

Retainers - These are not necessarily members of the faction, but they do support the faction by increasing resource output. They cannot hold fiefs; when they do, they lose Retainer status. Retainers may still be used to carry troops, equipment, scout, or any other such activities.

4.b. Map Actions

If a player is a member of a faction, he carries that banner above his head while traveling and it flies proudly over his fief on the Strategus map.

Kings and Lords can see the locations of all fiefs owned by members of their Faction, including Bandit Camps and those hidden by the Fog of War.


5. Battle System

The Strategus battle system was an impressive innovation on Warband Multiplayer. Very little has been changed.

Fights occur 24 hours after the attacker initiated.


5.a. Field Battles

Much like the original Strategus, field battles occur when a player attacks another (1) outside of a fief or (2) by attacking a Camp (if it lacks a palisade).

Village battles occur on the village battle maps, but otherwise occur like field battles, unless the Village has a palisade.


5.b. Sieges

Sieges occur when a camp with a palisaded Camp or Village, a Castle, or a City are attacked. Sieges work very differently than field battles. Most importantly, Besieged fiefs do not produce resources, nor does the besieging army's character. Improvements that don't affect resources still function normally. Furthermore, no characters can enter or leave the fief.

Sieges don't occur like normal battles. Instead, they can be triggered by either the attacking or defending sides at any given moment with the battle occurring 24 hours later from the trigger.

Sieges are initiated by either (1) an army attacking from a field nearby or (2) an army attacking from an adjacent fief, especially the Siege Camp.

Sieges may last for several days, even weeks. A critical factor for any besieging army is going to be its ability to keep itself supplied with Silver while it waits for the enemy forces within to diminish, as most fiefs will have at least basic improvements to make their troop upkeep lower than that of a Siege Camp.

Given the limitation on troops per character and troops per fief type, it will take many coordinated players with large armies to take down castles and cities.


5.b.1. Attacking the Wall

Aggressors can attack the walls whenever they choose.
Of course, they'll need a Siege Camp to build siege equipment to give to the army if they want to make a serious attempt at taking the fief.


5.b.2. Waiting it Out

Doing nothing is always an option! If the attacking army can pay the Silver, they can simply wait. If the defender thinks it can outlast the attacking army(-ies), it too can wait for the enemy troops to desert. It becomes a battle of time and attrition.


5.b.3. Sallying Forth

Defenders don't have to do nothing while they wait. A besieged fief may always Sally Forth, attacking the enemy outside the gates of the Palisade, Castle, or City defenses, thus liberating themselves to continue resource production normally.


5.c. After Fief Battles

If the defender wins, resource production continues and the attacking player character is returned to his fief in 12 hours.
If the attacker wins, the defender's character is sent to his Faction HQ or Zendar 12 hours later.

Any other players in the fief that are not the defender are immediately expelled from the fief and subject to attack.


5.c.1. Looting

The winner of the battle claims the remaining equipment and Silver of the losing party; if the fief's owner was present in the fief, he loses his property in the fief as well as on his character.


5.c.2. Razing

For 24 hours, no other players can claim the fief or make any changes to it. The victor, however, can choose to raze structures at a rate of (Initial Buildtime/5). If an upgrade takes 500 minutes to build, it will take 100 minutes to demolish. The character cannot move or this timer will be undone, although he is not frozen in place and may run if enemies loom nearby.

This also applies to the owners of fiefs, allowing fief owners to practice "scorched earth" tactics.


5.c.3. Claiming

The victor may immediately claim his prize fief. In doing so, he will automatically forfeit his former fief. Any troops inside will be removed, thus letting any new claimants take any wealth left behind.

If the victor does not take the fief after 24 hours, another character may claim it instead.

-----

6. Fief Design

One is not necessarily locked in to using existing battle maps. Players are welcome to create their own fief's battle map to suit personal tastes!
This does come at some cost, and changes must be reasonable. Guidelines will enforce designs to certain objects so that every castle is not "maximized" and made into ideal conditions.

The spirit of Fief Design is to allow players unique control over their fief's development and appearance, not to give a player the ability to create overly powerful or unbeatable defensive structures. Any designs to this effect will be immediately discarded. A voting committee will be given control of the map to explore and test before voting on approval. Denied Fief Design applications will be given the best feedback possible.

Absurd or imbalanced proposals will be dismissed out of hand immediately.

Once created, your Designed Fief will be put into circulation for the random-map selection process for the geographies groups it fits within.


6.a. Associated Costs

Unique fiefs will require an Architect's Dwelling. Without it, a fief owner cannot participate in Fief Design and must use the standard set of fiefs. Of course, a fief owner can still be given a unique fief created by Fief Design in the random battle map selection process.

If a fief owner wishes to use the Fief Design of another player, he may do so, but he must still build the Architect's Dwelling.


6.b. Limitations: Block Sets

Obviously, a unique village without a palisade will not get to build a tall stone keep in the middle of the village. Furthermore, a Fief Design castle cannot be as large as a city.

Each fief type will be limited in size by "Block Sets" for a degree of uniformity and the sake of fairness.


7. Game Design and Rounds

Initially, a Strategus Round will be three months long. This will not necessarily be so of Strategus rounds following: some may be shorter, some may be longer.

Before and during the beginning of Strategus rounds, the community voice will be heard to establish this criteria before it begins.

Furthermore, each Strategus round will have a new map.

7.a. Set Rounds

Strategus Rounds will be distinct, instanced game rounds that have a definite beginning and ending. They are free to set their own goals for each round, or no goals at all.

7.a.1. Pre-Round Goals

Each individual and each clan leader my write their Goal for a given Strategus round. These will be hidden from all other players until the end of Strategus. They cannot be changed once Strategus has started.

These goals give each player and clan the opportunity to plan and accomplish, eventually revealing those schemes at the end of the round to the whole community.

7.b. End-Round Results

The results of each round for individual characters and clans will be displayed at the end of each round, including how many troops were produced, how many were lost, how many fiefs were taken, how many fiefs were lost, and all manner of statistics, etc.

7.b.2. The Revealing

At the conclusion of each set round of Strategus, the Goals of all individuals and clans are revealed to the whole community. These Goals can be compared to the clan’s End-Round Results, giving players a way to examine how each player and clan has challenged themselves and if they have accomplished that successfully.

----

Conclusion:

This proposal is not intended to be final. It is merely the attempt to improve on existing systems to create a game where independent players, small factions, and large factions can all have a hand in determining the outcome of the game by setting and pursuing their own agendas.

This proposal does not cover every aspect of Strategus. Many, perhaps even most, of the existing systems are very effective and no alterations would bring any improvements.

Lastly, most of the "hard numbers" and values are not set, cost of improvements being first and foremost among them. The game mechanics will need to be examined closely with mathematical, hypothetical-input/output testing. These formulas will be tested and developed after the Strategus community finds common ground on the general policy proposals within this text.

We hope that our proposal is given full, fair consideration and discussion for a better Strategus game.

-----

An additional, unedited compilation of short-form suggestions list from the entire community that may or may not have been within this proposal has been compiled below:

Suggestion Notes
-Change your Title (for Fiefs)
-No more big armies - many smaller armies
-Tickets and Equip follow the player
-Following feature
-Respawn at faction leader
-Bots defend Neutral locations
-More equipment, less troops
-Obvious tables for who is at war with who, who is allied to who
-Create a bandit lair, neutral location
-See clan mates on Map
-Multiple factions per fief
-Mercenary mode for Independents
-Bandit Lairs (hidden)
-Easy re-entrance to game
-cheaper gear
-cavalry a legit option
-small clans become easier
-pre-set factions
-Pick either Long Term Persistence OR Short Term Powerstruggle, clear Win/Lose
-Better time-of-battle options for Attacker and Defender (clear window)
-Flags won't help even matches
-Show banner on Roster lists
-Show faction banner on Strategus map over Fief
-Time of fief defense set to to the player's Sleep time, not on arbitrary lines
-Reserves list for Strategus battles to fill rosters
-Upcoming Strat battle in-server Message
-Purchasable upgrades to recruit, economy, etc.
-Auto-calculate travel time estimate
-Each faction starts with a fief
-Banner pack support for Updater
-Spawn in Strat based on who you support
-Fiefs for factions, special independent bases for non-Strat players
-Preset factions, clans can join in addition to player factions
-Special equipment for specific locations
-Faction equipment themes
-Stop last-survivors from delaying
-Pre-set tax income
-Ally/War feature
-Resources
-Reward battle commanders, starting fights

Signatories:

Garem of the Fallen Brigade
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on March 21, 2012, 04:03:36 pm
tl;dr: I liek the poopy.

huehuehueaehe

But really I'll read this later It seems promising.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Everkistus on March 21, 2012, 04:06:10 pm
Garem has worked on this for a long time. I really do think devs should read this and give it some thought.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on March 21, 2012, 04:09:25 pm
Do you not think this is a bit much?

Some of these ideas sound awesome but really to expect even a small share of this seems overly optimistic. Think when the last strategus patch was and what we got compared to what this asks for.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Garem on March 21, 2012, 04:22:09 pm
Quote from: 22nd_King_Plazek on March 21, 2012, 04:09:25 pm
Do you not think this is a bit much?

Some of these ideas sound awesome but really to expect even a small share of this seems overly optimistic. Think when the last strategus patch was and what we got compared to what this asks for.

I'm not inclined to think small. Most importantly, all these systems are correlated. We've been talking "small ideas" for a long, long time.

I wanted to put everything together, get the whole sum of ideas in one place to create a cohesive vision for Strategus development from the playerbase.

What do you think about it all, Plazek? Any questions, concerns, or things that sound awesome?
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Darkoveride on March 21, 2012, 04:28:35 pm
excellent proposal sir. 
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Slantedfloors on March 21, 2012, 05:51:12 pm
This is too well thought out and properly designed to not get completely ignored.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Lizard_man on March 21, 2012, 06:50:59 pm
I fucking love the idea of building fiefs and everything that comes with it. Having Zendar as a spawn and neutral city is also a great idea, although a few neutral cities would be nice. You have some wonderful ideas, i read most of it but i tend to drift off when reading. Regardless, this sounds like a great vision for Strategus...
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Nessaj on March 21, 2012, 06:56:50 pm
Excellent compilation. I am confident it could be achieved.

I wish I would have had a bit more time to reply to you Garem -- you did a great job on this.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Casimir on March 21, 2012, 07:32:03 pm
Some really well thought out and explained ideas, I just think Almighty chadz and co. are either to lazy to/ not capable of implementing them.  We shall see.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Tanken on March 21, 2012, 07:34:51 pm
 The problem is (haven't yet to read ALL of it) that the Dev team for Strategus and cRPG I don't think A) Has the motivation to do it and B) Has the skillset to do it either. Our biggest contribution lately was Rageball, and that came from someone outside the Development team.


They've found a formula that some-what works and a player base that primarily enjoys it (though I agree there is a lot of quirks). If I myself had the knowledge and the immense amounts of freetime this would take to develop and then had to do it FOR FREEEEEEE, I would do it. But not for free. What you're asking (that I've seen thus far) is for them to create a WHOLE new aspect to cRPG in a time-frame that would take them probably at least 12 months to complete, simply going off the rate of work that DOES get done around here.


In short, Dev Team couldn't handle it, at least from what I've seen.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Rikthor on March 21, 2012, 08:23:51 pm
Quote from: Casimir on March 21, 2012, 07:32:03 pm
Some really well thought out and explained ideas, I just think Almighty chadz and co. are either to lazy to/ not capable of implementing them.  We shall see.

Quote from: Tank Burner on March 21, 2012, 07:34:51 pm
The problem is (haven't yet to read ALL of it) that the Dev team for Strategus and cRPG I don't think A) Has the motivation to do it and B) Has the skillset to do it either. Our biggest contribution lately was Rageball, and that came from someone outside the Development team.
In short, Dev Team couldn't handle it, at least from what I've seen.

Sums up my thoughts as well, you have to remember this is a mod they do on their own free time and yeah lack motivation, laziness, fatigue, real life, etc. all play into it as none of them are actually professional developers doing this for a living.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Lizard_man on March 21, 2012, 08:25:42 pm
Maybe it's time to expand the team?
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: RibaldRon on March 21, 2012, 08:46:35 pm
Maybe this post is so awesome that it will at least inspire SOME change for the better in the game.

Perhaps not all of it, but with one large suggestion, perhaps one small victory will be won, where many small suggestions went unnoticed.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Everkistus on March 22, 2012, 02:58:22 pm
Quote from: Lizard_man on March 21, 2012, 08:25:42 pm
Maybe it's time to expand the team?
This indeed. I don't know how much Garem can code but he does have some damn good ideas.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on March 22, 2012, 03:23:36 pm
I did actually read the whole of this post. Breathtakingly detailed. I have not got any criticisms concerning the outline, too well thought out. However, I would like to say if I were chadz, this mod would be incredibly personal to me, and the amount of detail in your proposition would possibly be too much for a project that I'd spent this long on, if you get what I mean. Whether Strategus becomes this or not, there really needs to be a mod of this game with your idea at the helm.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: PhantomZero on March 22, 2012, 08:45:31 pm
Okay since no one else wants to nitpick, I guess I will have to.

There isn't enough opportunity for trading. Villages should constantly be consuming resources, not just lacking access to one or another.

Troops should retire, Wood/Stone/Iron consumed for upkeep of buildings, Food consumed for the population, the only way to get and maintain a city should be with the co-operation of several villages. Having a surplus will increase population, deficits for too long decrease.

Players shouldn't have to sit in a village and turn in their goods every day ( this is the most boring part of Strategus) the village should produce the goods and the players should be the means by which they move around and provide production or other bonuses to villages they are in in exchange for money.

As your village improves and attracts more people they should demand additional trade goods that get consumed (furniture, clothes, tools, different varieties of food, etc.) running out of these goods causes the population to stagnate and possibly start to decline.

Other trade goods could provide bonuses to production, farm plows, saws, looms, and etc.

These bonus-providing trade goods could be created by players who want to invest in a town by building some sort of shop, and require them to sit there if they wanted to produce their good. For more money they could develop a better shop  to make Luxury Goods, which could then be carted around the map and earn gold based on the current distance = greater money system, and increase the prosperity of other towns with your Luxury and Exotic goods, villages wouldn't find much use and wouldn't be able to afford them.

The fief design stuff will very easily be exploitable to create unassailable positions. A set of pre-determined maps based upon size,  terrain, and special enhancements would be best.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: AllTimeFail on March 22, 2012, 09:34:27 pm
Quote from: PhantomZero on March 22, 2012, 08:45:31 pm
Okay since no one else wants to nitpick, I guess I will have to.

There isn't enough opportunity for trading. Villages should constantly be consuming resources, not just lacking access to one or another.

Troops should retire, Wood/Stone/Iron consumed for upkeep of buildings, Food consumed for the population, the only way to get and maintain a city should be with the co-operation of several villages. Having a surplus will increase population, deficits for too long decrease.

Players shouldn't have to sit in a village and turn in their goods every day ( this is the most boring part of Strategus) the village should produce the goods and the players should be the means by which they move around and provide production or other bonuses to villages they are in in exchange for money.

As your village improves and attracts more people they should demand additional trade goods that get consumed (furniture, clothes, tools, different varieties of food, etc.) running out of these goods causes the population to stagnate and possibly start to decline.

Other trade goods could provide bonuses to production, farm plows, saws, looms, and etc.

These bonus-providing trade goods could be created by players who want to invest in a town by building some sort of shop, and require them to sit there if they wanted to produce their good. For more money they could develop a better shop  to make Luxury Goods, which could then be carted around the map and earn gold based on the current distance = greater money system, and increase the prosperity of other towns with your Luxury and Exotic goods, villages wouldn't find much use and wouldn't be able to afford them.

The fief design stuff will very easily be exploitable to create unassailable positions. A set of pre-determined maps based upon size,  terrain, and special enhancements would be best.

Well let me critique your post now...

LOOK AT THAT PUPPY!! ISNT IT SOOO CUTE. I LOVE THE LITTLE PUPPY. YES I DO. YES I DO. and its got little glasses too oh ho ho ho. Ok, good post.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Xant on March 22, 2012, 09:35:46 pm
That's not a puppy.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: AllTimeFail on March 22, 2012, 09:36:25 pm
agree to disagree
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Mike_of_Kingswell on March 22, 2012, 09:51:02 pm
Hopefully an admin will read this!
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Garem on March 22, 2012, 10:45:06 pm
Quote from: PhantomZero on March 22, 2012, 08:45:31 pm
stuff

tl;dr

Just kidding! Very glad to hear some critiques and comments.

-----


Quote from: PhantomZero on March 22, 2012, 08:45:31 pm
There isn't enough opportunity for trading. Villages should constantly be consuming resources, not just lacking access to one or another.

Hm. Theoretically, they WILL constantly be consuming resources because there's always something being built. The fiefs are designed to take far longer than a single Strategus round. The idea is to get those cities, over a dozen players will be needed to send resources from fiefs and castles to build one.

Trading is being downplayed, of course. Moving resources, stockpiling clan supplies in well defended cities and castles is now a factor, however. I'm not opposed to the idea of trading. Free markets from cross-clan development should be enough though because, again, SO many players' resources are required to build the most upgraded fiefs that clans will definitely want to trade with non-Clanners.

Or try to steal it from them, but that will have obvious repercussions.

Quote from: PhantomZero on March 22, 2012, 08:45:31 pm
Troops should retire, Wood/Stone/Iron consumed for upkeep of buildings, Food consumed for the population, the only way to get and maintain a city should be with the co-operation of several villages. Having a surplus will increase population, deficits for too long decrease.

Definitely not opposed to the idea. Although because rounds are so limited in time, at least 2 months no more than 8 IMO, this is just an additional layer of micro-management complexity. I don't see it adding much more to the game, since resources would be better spent upgrading other clanner's/friend's stuff.

Quote from: PhantomZero on March 22, 2012, 08:45:31 pm
Players shouldn't have to sit in a village and turn in their goods every day ( this is the most boring part of Strategus) the village should produce the goods and the players should be the means by which they move around and provide production or other bonuses to villages they are in in exchange for money.

I don't quite understand you here, but I 100% agree with the first sentence's idea- Action over Inaction.

Regardless, there is virtually no benefit to sitting in a fief except that (1) "overflow" resources beyond a fief's capacity can go to the player and (2) less upkeep.

Retainership kind of addresses the last sentence. What other idea do you have about how to make that work better, rewarding Activity over Inactivity?

Quote from: PhantomZero on March 22, 2012, 08:45:31 pm
As your village improves and attracts more people they should demand additional trade goods that get consumed (furniture, clothes, tools, different varieties of food, etc.) running out of these goods causes the population to stagnate and possibly start to decline.

Other trade goods could provide bonuses to production, farm plows, saws, looms, and etc.

These bonus-providing trade goods could be created by players who want to invest in a town by building some sort of shop, and require them to sit there if they wanted to produce their good. For more money they could develop a better shop  to make Luxury Goods, which could then be carted around the map and earn gold based on the current distance = greater money system, and increase the prosperity of other towns with your Luxury and Exotic goods, villages wouldn't find much use and wouldn't be able to afford them.

Just as a purely personal opinion, this is too complex. I prefer a focus on war developments, not SimCity.

Quote from: PhantomZero on March 22, 2012, 08:45:31 pm
The fief design stuff will very easily be exploitable to create unassailable positions. A set of pre-determined maps based upon size,  terrain, and special enhancements would be best.

This is my biggest concern. Cooties can probably address this whole Fief Design thing better, as it was originally his/her idea! I just like the principle of it. Committees and requiring Peer Review seemed the only quick and fair option for doing it.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Kafein on March 22, 2012, 11:53:18 pm
My reaction when I saw this for the first time : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zHZj8Xp-Ik


Then :D

I only have suggestions about the geopolitical aspect of Strategus :

- Taking a fief by force should severely hurt this fief's prosperity and income, probably reducing the amount of resources the new owner gets by 10 at start.
- Armies should be cheap to recruit and expensive to upkeep.
- Army movement should be much slower than battles (I think it's nearly ok though)
- Armies should consume food and suffer attrition whenever they are not garrisoned and have run out of food. The attrition should be faster in enemy lands. Fiefs you just conquered should give very limited supplies.
- Rebels, with various causes such as running out of basic resources.
- Integrate a "core fief" system. Basically, a faction that controls a fief during enough time would get a legitimate claim on it, which would make it harder for invaders to keep the fief under control if they take it. This unstability would be represented through rebels and a reduced production.


These are the minimal key concepts I think are needed to prevent Strat 4.0 from turn into a powerblock game as fast as Strat 3.0 did. Currently, players only fight against each other. They should also fight against the game.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: PhantomZero on March 23, 2012, 01:03:18 am
Well the idea behind upkeep on the buildings/population is that it would require multiple villages to maintain a single town, which would have the benefits of being able to field more troops and build the best buildings, as well as being very defensible. Cutting off supplies to the town to "siege" it would be an effective tactic, but give the town more time to rally soldiers to break the siege.

Otherwise after 6 months I think every fief would be a town, consider that you say "over a dozen" to have a single town, when there are some clans with "over a hundred" players.

Regarding retainers, well most of it ties into the "Sim City" idea, which isn't really so much "Sim City" but a way to expand the economics of Strategus. But it seems like we have the same idea, your village produces resources, with bonuses given by your retainer.

However, what if you don't have a fief and you aren't a retainer? Your time playing cRPG is useless. By being someones retainer, all your strategus money automatically gets turned into crpg money, which means you can never make any money in Strategus without owning your own fief by playing cRPG, so how are you going to be able to afford to start your trading operation or found your own village?

You could own property within someone else's village/town/city and you would gameplay-wise be the lord, without all the permissions to kick people out/set taxes/etc. But in title you would be a minor noble I guess or other vassal. This would be limited of course by the number of slots in each village/town/city with the Lord being able to confiscate/revoke your abilities if you are too inactive and not kicking up enough resources/money.


Going back to the Sim City comment, it would give an economy to the game. Currently it is chadzinomics which is very simply Move Crate from point A to point B, make sure point A and point B are very far apart, oh and the prices to craft and sell at point A and point B change randomly. There is no actual demand for any of the goods, no value, chicken feathers are worth the same as baskets of kittens and the faction that is the largest length-wise will be the most prosperous. Trade agreements consist of meeting halfway between two fiefs, exchanging the exact same number of goods, and then walking back.

You could simplify it, but as it stands the only reason to acquire more resources is to build more buildings, but there isn't any reason to trade those goods because everyone needs to buy their own buildings. You produce everything for the same cost as everyone else (time spent playing cRPG) and there would be no reason to trade on a factional level, as a faction would be able to have a village to produce at least one of each good. Sure individual villages might be better at producing one good more than others, but that still doesn't promote faction level trading, or even trading between cities, as you would want to keep all the surpluses to yourself in order to make more cities.

Cities would ultimately just become better castles, which already are kind of useless.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on March 23, 2012, 05:45:42 am
Quote from: Garem on March 21, 2012, 03:59:51 pm
3.a. Attachment to cRPG; Character Locking

(click to show/hide)

Not a huge fan of this idea. I really like being able to improve my clans crafting and fighting capacity with the heir loomed gear, it seems a bit big change to ditch the whole crafting system/mechanic...

My main problem with locking is, well the "locking" bit. How would one change ones build? Its not the biggest pain in my arse given that I roll an 18/18 shield/pole arm/xbow hybrid built for strat.

Why would you want to vanilla all the gear? Personally the only reason I have loomed gear is for the purpose of crafting, it gives me no in game benefit (I have huge ping to NA which is where I play). I think the current system needs to be tweaked, but not wholeheartedly thrown in the bin. I like the idea of changing the way weapons craftin, recruiting and trade good crafting is done. Separate trade goods and recruiting and make it c-rpg play boosted (as in http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,28451.0.html). My other issue with it is that it knocks out an advantage a small clan like mine has. We have a handful of players that have developed fantastic crafting in a handful of items, like siege ladders and Arbs, it gives us an edge, we can given a bit of time kit ourselves out for half the price of most other clans given our crafting skill is sitting around the 90s for all our major kit (although mine is complete crap).

*still working on this, just posting in case I can't finish it today*
Quote from: Garem on March 21, 2012, 03:59:51 pm
3.c.2. Map Options

(click to show/hide)

I think you should only be able to do this if you, a member of your faction or a retainer are in the fief, or perhaps some kind of "message post" to recieve your orders. Its basically just a spanner in the works. Its probably totally pointless :/ thinking about it, it is. I don't know why I want it.
Quote from: Garem on March 21, 2012, 03:59:51 pm
3.d. Losing Battles
(click to show/hide)

You should be able to select a clan headquarters of an ally and have them accept it, as you would a person entering a faction. Like a landless baron fighting for a landless king.
Quote from: Garem on March 21, 2012, 03:59:51 pm
4.a. Leadership and Members

(click to show/hide)

1 King blows, I won't RP to anarcho syndicalist commune, and I want there to be a chance of "smoothrich" style clan boning to take place.

 :idea: eureka!

Tithe to the king. The king should be able to set a tithe and automatically take a % of the silver earned by a faction member.

The king can select weather the clan is Despotic or Democratic. If its democratic the members have to vote on Tithe changes and various other things.

Quote from: Garem on March 21, 2012, 03:59:51 pm
4.b. Map Actions
(click to show/hide)

Perhaps the heraldic symbol/banner of the clan could fill the region area on the ground with a nice opacity so its not glary and ugly... would need a big old update for the strat website.
Quote from: Garem on March 21, 2012, 03:59:51 pm
5. Battle System
(click to show/hide)

I'm still a big believer of having fights only happen during peak server times. At least then you know exactly what is going to happen when you attack a fief and you aren't going to get boned by some crazy time setting the fief owner has.

Quote from: Garem on March 21, 2012, 03:59:51 pm
5. Battle System
5.b.1. Attacking the Wall

A
(click to show/hide)


5.b.2. Waiting it Out
(click to show/hide)


5.b.3. Sallying Forth

(click to show/hide)

I like all these, a while back i chucked the idea out there that armies could build siege shields and other goodies by sitting in a forest and the out put was based on the amount of troops you had to knock them together.

What about also having a "food reverser" for the sieging army, just to complicate it a little bit. But the food counter doesn't kick in for say 33% of the defending fiefs food reserve. And after that you have to make regular hauls of food for the siege camp.

Quote from: Garem link=topic=28397.msg414867#msg414867 date=1332341991
[b
6. Fief Design[/b]
(click to show/hide)

Sounds complicated... Why not use the system from that game mode that I can't remember the name of... and give them a randomly generate plot of land and let them build on it using those tools. Have a set of basic structures and so on, and enough limits on deployment of things and stuff to stop it getting out of hand. I mean who is going to approve 253+ maps? Also perhaps it would be wise to have pre-built castles, let people do what they will with the towns and maybe the cities but keep the castles controlled.

Still a work in progress.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: PhantomZero on March 23, 2012, 06:01:27 am
In regards to making weapons, I always had an idea where you could choose to make quality, or quantity. You could have Masterwork items very slowly, but regular or worse weapons quickly.

In this manner small clans with smaller armies can have better equipment, while large clans with large armies can equip them.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Garem on March 23, 2012, 06:49:03 am
Thanks for the continued discussion. Good stuff.

Much of this reply is "Oops, I described it wrong, you're right." My bad, edits to clarify the OP will go in later. Feel free to suggest what it should be replaced with specifically!

-----

@Frank

Sure. I disagree, of course. I hate the idea that when you retire you can't be as effective in Strategus. The guy who gave me the "level lock" idea actually advocated just a pure "Everyone starts and stays at 30, you can change 1/week like STF's". I tried to preserve the development aspect without forcing you to refrain from Strategus action.

Also, the language wasn't clear at all for the "Map Options" post. All of those things are character specific. A player can only see his information, change his fief, etc. Nothing about other players. My bad.

Clan HQ is always the King's fief. Want to change it? Change King. Easy as that- this is virtually the only reason to be King anyways, there's no other benefit that Lords can't do. Again, my bad on being unclear about this- it is as you describe, which is the goal. Also, having one HQ makes sense as players then are benefited from focusing on teamwork-building up fiefs.

-----

@PhantonZero

My numbers suck. Hard. Take them with a grain of salt, as I tend to throw them out at random. My bad! I like the way "dozen" sounds. I should have said like, "over four score".

Cities, in my mind, should take at minimum a dedicated and aggressively organized team of 50 crafters, raiders, and traders. Cities should NOT be common. Building them up and capturing them should take an enormous amount of time and drastically change the tides of war.

"What if you aren't a retainer, don't have a fief?"

It takes 24 hours to make a Camp- this is absolutely free. After your first day or two in Strategus, you should be able to move around the map, find a spot, plant a camp and start pumping out gold and troops. If you want to produce, a day or two is all it takes.

"... then your time is useless..."

In Strategus- yep! And you don't get the bonus gold, either. This heavily incentivizes players to get involved in Strat, find people willing to pay well for their services. Nobody is forced to join Strat, but they are encouraged and rewarded.

Also, if a Retainer wants a reward in Silver, Troops, hell even Heirlooms then that's absolutely possible with agreements outside the suggested mechanics. That gold can be converted from the Master's Silver is just facilitating the already thriving Cash-4-Gold market on the forums.


"Nobody needs to trade those goods, just need them for their own buildings..."

Well, sort of. If they really want to try and build a city with all the trimmings, yes, you're going to need some serious resources. Problem is, that's really, really hard. I wish I could throw numbers on it, but they'd just be arbitrary like every other number I've used so far.

Would simply having more resources be better? I envisioned a system akin to Settlers of Catan when I started writing, but cut out several of the resources later on to avoid complexity for complexity's sake. Again, totally just a personal preference thing, but I don't like that. Simple is, usually, better.

Then again, the market of the game gets more interesting with complexity. Your point isn't lost on me.

Lastly, on this point, inter-factional trade would DEFINITELY happen. If you need 1000 wood and stone, but have 1500 wood and 200 stone, that faction would be stupid if they didn't get rid of that extra 500 wood to speed up their pace towards the stone quota, EVEN IF they actually needed that 500 for the next level of the project. Stockpiling resources, even with this simple 3-resource and silver system, keeps resource balancing very important. Again, I look towards the uniqueness of random number Settlers of Catan games.

Is there a happy medium between trading too few resources like my system and trading Chairs for affluence-structures in yours? Again, open to the idea, just needs more specific details.

-----

@ Everyone

I really, 100% hate the chadztext for heirloom benefits in Strategus. It makes a mess of inventories, they provide really big benefits for people who grind cRPG at stupid high rates, and are completely arbitrary for when you get it. I thought it was cool in theory, it just wasn't in practice. I used to feel otherwise, so I understand if you disagree.

No heirlooms in Strategus, imo. These are big battles between armies with mass produced weapons; not the King's favorite sword made 500 times. The only, ONLY exception might be for like, if the Commander of the battle shows up for his own fight he gets one round with one or two MW equips of his choice. Still... meh. Not crazy about that, either, as it could upset the balance.

Anywho, I'll edit-for-clarifying the common ground stuff tomorrow!
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: PhantomZero on March 23, 2012, 07:32:12 am
Happy medium might be that "Merchants" could come to your town and setup shop with their retainers, and be able to make unique resources specifically for trading to other towns that would work as it does now, based on distance. It would also make towns more valuable.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on March 23, 2012, 08:48:30 am
Quote from: Garem on March 23, 2012, 06:49:03 am

@ Everyone

(click to show/hide)

I also hate the current crafting system, but I do like the concept. I've thrown up a good half dozen threads about it, hell the thread in my sig is a protest against the current shit pile. But I still think it should stay in some form. My preference is selecting gear and then boosting it with a trickle of xp, but it also degrades at the same rate it gains. So that people will slowly loose what they currently have (unless its the gear they won't to craft) at the same rate they gain. *sorry a bit sleepy and pooped*
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Havoco on March 27, 2012, 02:38:36 am
I really like the idea of sallying out because it would also counter battles at bad times.

@ the rest of OP. I like the ideas on here, but I imagine it would take a long time before they could implement all of this.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on March 28, 2012, 09:52:00 am
Although I would think Havoco that once you "committed" to the battle and it came up on the list that you would then begin the 24 hour timer and would not be able to sally forth, if you run it through it would create a lot of problems, but being able to do it when you are being sieged so they can take the fief for "free" that's a different story.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Vibe on March 28, 2012, 10:08:12 am
I doubt they are incapable of coding this, it would just take a serious chunk of their life.
Next, expanding team probably isn't easy as well, they want to know the new coders well before they entrust them with the source.

Either way, good work Garem.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Noctivagant on March 28, 2012, 10:42:50 am
There is still a little bit trust left in me that someone will read this as respect to the community. But I still have my doubts and I'd certainly like to be proven wrong.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: HarunYahya on March 28, 2012, 11:44:52 am
I dont want to be forced to play cRPG in order to make an army in strategus.
I love strategus because i love those kinda web-browser games like Travian , Stronghold Kingdoms etc...
Your suggestion sounds like i have to play Stronghold Crusader Campaign to get resources onto my village in Stronghold Kingdoms and it seriously annoys me.
If i want to play cRPG , i play cRPG .
If i want to play Strategus , i play strategus.
I love both cRPG and Strategus seperatly i don't want a system like "Play x to benefit in y"
If i want to benefit on y , i should play y instead of x.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Camaris on March 28, 2012, 11:48:15 am
Quote from: koyama on March 28, 2012, 11:44:52 am
I dont want to be forced to play cRPG in order to make an army in strategus.
I love strategus because i love those kinda web-browser games like Travian , Stronghold Kingdoms etc...
Your suggestion sounds like i have to play Stronghold Crusader Campaign to get resources onto my village in Stronghold Kingdoms and it seriously annoys me.
If i want to play cRPG , i play cRPG .
If i want to play Strategus , i play strategus.
I love both cRPG and Strategus seperatly i don't want a system like "Play x to benefit in y"
If i want to benefit on y , i should play y instead of x.

95% of strategus players do play crpg regulary.
I dont think those 5% only playing strat justify to not do easy changes to get rid of bots, multi accs etc.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on March 28, 2012, 11:58:09 am
Quote from: koyama on March 28, 2012, 11:44:52 am
I dont want to be forced to play cRPG in order to make an army in strategus.
I love strategus because i love those kinda web-browser games like Travian , Stronghold Kingdoms etc...
Your suggestion sounds like i have to play Stronghold Crusader Campaign to get resources onto my village in Stronghold Kingdoms and it seriously annoys me.
If i want to play cRPG , i play cRPG .
If i want to play Strategus , i play strategus.
I love both cRPG and Strategus seperatly i don't want a system like "Play x to benefit in y"
If i want to benefit on y , i should play y instead of x.

I totally see your point and agree in a lot of way, BUT I think that a bonus would be a good thing. As in you play c-rpg and it boosts your trade goods crafting rate, and recruiting rate. It makes the drones less powerful, but it does have the potential to through the whole fucking thing out of whack and make it completely unpredictable. Which would be shit house.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Fluffy_Muffin on March 28, 2012, 01:09:29 pm
Not a single dev will give a fuck what you wrote

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Tomas on March 28, 2012, 02:32:22 pm
Quote from: koyama on March 28, 2012, 11:44:52 am
I dont want to be forced to play cRPG in order to make an army in strategus.
I love strategus because i love those kinda web-browser games like Travian , Stronghold Kingdoms etc...
Your suggestion sounds like i have to play Stronghold Crusader Campaign to get resources onto my village in Stronghold Kingdoms and it seriously annoys me.
If i want to play cRPG , i play cRPG .
If i want to play Strategus , i play strategus.
I love both cRPG and Strategus seperatly i don't want a system like "Play x to benefit in y"
If i want to benefit on y , i should play y instead of x.

You already have to level your cRPG char to gain experience so your char can fight effectively in Strat Battles
You already have to play cRPG to gain crafting skills
Right now Strat and cRPG are already linked so I see no reason for not linking resource crafting to cRPG as well.

 However, if the devs decided to seperate cRPG chars from Strat and give everybody a seperate Strat char that levels and produces resources according to their actions and activity within Strat then that would work too.

Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Camaris on March 28, 2012, 03:03:19 pm
Quote from: Tomas on March 28, 2012, 02:32:22 pm
You already have to level your cRPG char to gain experience so your char can fight effectively in Strat Battles
You already have to play cRPG to gain crafting skills
Right now Strat and cRPG are already linked so I see no reason for not linking resource crafting to cRPG as well.

 However, if the devs decided to seperate cRPG chars from Strat and give everybody a seperate Strat char that levels and produces resources according to their actions and activity within Strat then that would work too.

Could live with that too.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on March 28, 2012, 03:30:56 pm
You know that is a nonsensical argument right?

Saying there is already a link so it does not matter to anyone if you make a connection bigger is false.

Saying if it is not going to be linked more that it must be completely different is also false.

There is no logical basis.

---

Strat is a browser strategy game where you can play the in game battles using your crpg character.
This does not mean that crpg and strat have to be intertwined more.
This does not mean they should otherwise be completely disconnected.
It means there is a small link in that the character you use in both is the same. Nothing more.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Tomas on March 28, 2012, 05:21:42 pm
Quote from: 22nd_King_Plazek on March 28, 2012, 03:30:56 pm
Saying there is already a link so it does not matter to anyone if you make a connection bigger is false.

Lol - good try at logic, but I never said it won't matter to people if the connection between Strat and cRPG is made bigger. I merely said that there is already a connection so claiming the games are completely seperate is False.  The fact that a change might matter to someone is irrelevent - it will matter to me if the change is not made.  The Devs have to pick a side regardless.

Getting back to the discussion at hand though, other browser based MMOs use activty as a way of determining resource production.  They usually do this through a resource storage cap and activity is measured through your personal spending with limits on queable actions.  Why shouldn't Strat do the same?  Since there is no personal spending within Strat then some of us have suggested using cRPG as the activity measure due to its already established links.  However, if anybody can think up a good system for measuring activity purely in Strat then that will work as well.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: HarunYahya on March 28, 2012, 06:14:05 pm
Quote from: Camaris on March 28, 2012, 11:48:15 am
95% of strategus players do play crpg regulary.
I dont think those 5% only playing strat justify to not do easy changes to get rid of bots, multi accs etc.
"Playing cRPG regularly" and "Being forced to play cRPG to grind in strategus" are two completely different things.
Quote from: FRANK_THE_TANK on March 28, 2012, 11:58:09 am
I totally see your point and agree in a lot of way, BUT I think that a bonus would be a good thing. As in you play c-rpg and it boosts your trade goods crafting rate, and recruiting rate. It makes the drones less powerful, but it does have the potential to through the whole fucking thing out of whack and make it completely unpredictable. Which would be shit house.
You already have a bonus , if you don't play cRPG , you cannot craft anything , if you dont level up in cRPG , you can't kill a shit in strategus...
Quote from: Tomas on March 28, 2012, 02:32:22 pm
You already have to level your cRPG char to gain experience so your char can fight effectively in Strat Battles
You already have to play cRPG to gain crafting skills
Right now Strat and cRPG are already linked so I see no reason for not linking resource crafting to cRPG as well.

 However, if the devs decided to seperate cRPG chars from Strat and give everybody a seperate Strat char that levels and produces resources according to their actions and activity within Strat then that would work too.

Thats the main point , cRPG and strategus are already connected to each other
If you dont play cRPG , you cant make your char stronger therefore you won't be able to fight in strat battles.
If you dont retire you won't get chadztext so you wont be able to craft anything.

Only thing you can do in strat without grinding in cRPG is gathering troops and goods .
If you make them grind dependent aswell , no one will play Strategus ....
Only few clans play it since it consumes shitloads of time to build your economy and army and organizing shitloads of members in your faction now you are asking devs to make everything grind dependent ?

No offence but , you guys couldn't even run your faction properly on this version of strategus which is very simple .
If it becomes grind dependant only 3-5 factions will continue playing Strat in EU side  :lol:
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Farrix on March 28, 2012, 07:06:17 pm
I like the sallying forth option, however...keeping the reality in mind that both EU and NA have their prime times at completely uncooperative hours, I think the only and easiest way for that to be a reality would be to split the EU and NA communities into separate strategus maps. There's a 24 hour headsup for a defender to become aware of an attack, make it so a sally has lets say a 3 hour window. Obviously that wouldn't work with an NA clan versus an EU clan. EU clan could attack for 1 pm eastern time and NA could sally forth at 8 pm eastern for an 11 pm battle. very few of the EU members would be up that late. For a sally to be realistic within the whole community, the maps would need to be split.
Title: Re: Strategus Co-Op Development Proposal
Post by: Garem on March 28, 2012, 08:21:10 pm
Quote from: Farrix on March 28, 2012, 07:06:17 pm
I like the sallying forth option, however...keeping the reality in mind that both EU and NA have their prime times at completely uncooperative hours, I think the only and easiest way for that to be a reality would be to split the EU and NA communities into separate strategus maps. There's a 24 hour headsup for a defender to become aware of an attack, make it so a sally has lets say a 3 hour window. Obviously that wouldn't work with an NA clan versus an EU clan. EU clan could attack for 1 pm eastern time and NA could sally forth at 8 pm eastern for an 11 pm battle. very few of the EU members would be up that late. For a sally to be realistic within the whole community, the maps would need to be split.

Just to clarify on the whole Siege Camps thing...

Siege Camps do NOT equal Siege Battle
Siege Camps are just the first step. You initiate the typical 24-hours-later-battle from a siege camp, as an option of the siege camp's owner.
Sallying Forth also abides by the 24-hours-later-battle rule. It is not an immediate thing.

I didn't care to touch on the Splitting issue, as that's more of a policy issue than a mechanical issue. On a personal note, I agree with a split right now, but the mechanics proposed here attempt to eradicate many of the problems that have led to making a split desirable.

---

On the "grind" issue. The mechanics provided explicitly state limitations on production-from-playing to prevent excessive playtime from offering additional benefits by means of a "production cap". That "cap" cannot be exceeded by time- but note that it is a TIME cap, not a resource cap. You can produce more resources by improving your fief's production rate through improvements (and perhaps other ways!).

Current Strategus 100% encourages grinding through the Under-31 rule of the chadztext-Crafting system. Again. I hate it. Hate hate hate it. I am a casual player, I'm far less valuable to my clan because of it.

---

As to the "What is Strategus meant to be?" issue.

I don't think the developers ever intended Strategus to be like this:
 visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Maybe though. If that's the case, then consider this not a suggestion on how to change Strategus, but a suggestion on how to abandon the old concept and adopt a new and better one in the humble opinions of the author and those who have signed on so far. However, I think it's pretty clear that they wanted a game that balances the skill-based and tactical aspects of Mount&Blade/cRPG with the strategic aspects of Singleplayer campaign.

Why? Because it hasn't been done before. Because it'd be awesome. MMO-RPG-Strategy games have been done. (http://mmohuts.com/editorials/best-strategy-mmorpgs) If that's what you're looking for, the link provided should offer limitless browser-based pleasure. Enjoy. Strategus is something new and great.