Throwing is powerful. But it is slow for any of the powerful weapons, and incredibly inaccurate. I think throwing is fine right now.+1
I was the last one left in my team, and a thrower with throwing lances was the last one left on the other team. I was dueling him in melee, and he "got tired of blocking," backed up, and threw a lance into me, taking all of my HP.
I don't think throwing is OP, as in Over Powered. Just over populatedI don't know in NA but in EU server it seems to me the majority of ranged melee want back to using xbow.
I don't think throwing is OP, as in Over Powered. Just over populated, and even that is becoming less of an issue. If throwing were so OP, you'd see throwers at the top of the scoreboards often. And while I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it definitely isn't the norm. I'd even venture so far as to say that throwers are at the top of the scoreboards less often than they should be, even by simple mathematical statistics(meaning % of players who are throwers vs % of those players who reach the top of the scoreboards).
Throwing is powerful. But it is slow for any of the powerful weapons, and incredibly inaccurate. I think throwing is fine right now.
Throwing has been OP for way too long. It's a fact that it does so much damage and requires so little. You don't need any WPF to be accurrate
I would agree with the fact that throwing needs nerfed down a bit. I often see any half decent thrower/thrower hybrid topping the boards often. I think having a spammable close/medium range weapon that can kill almost anyone in 2 hits is bullshit, or if you heirloom your throwing weapons 1 shot everyone? wtf, how is that balanced?
Throwing has been OP for way too long. It's a fact that it does so much damage and requires so little. You don't need any WPF to be accurrate, just like archery was like, until the WPF patch came in (where archers needed WPF to be accurrate).
-general soak and reduction values, damage treshold of stun =1, which promote one high damage strike over multiple strikes from low damage weapon, imo percentage value should be much harder, best would be changing how the armor work)
UrLukur, you think the damage on throwing is fine? LOL
I am at the top of scoreboard damn often as a thrower.
Throwing problems are:
-no reload animations, so thrower can just spam throw many projectiles in short amount of time.
-too many projectiles in single stack (that is heavy) lead to spam throwing, also small axes are suddenly more resistant to stun than every other ah weapon, wtf ?
-general soak and reduction values, damage treshold of stun =1, which promote one high damage strike over multiple strikes from low damage weapon, imo percentage value should be much harder, best would be changing how the armor work)
-general ease to change weapon from throwing to other weapon on your back like most polearms and 2h weapons.
+1
The rest of you throwers trying to cry that is just fine are just trying to protect your own currently overpowerful weapon. Throwing DEMANDS as hard a nerf as the archers got. It should be nerfed so hard that ONLY devoted throwers play that class, just like ONLY dedicated archers play now. All the archer Alts? Retired. Nerf throwers until the same thing happens.
I have two throwers. They are not as OP as you think they are. Mine are hybrids though, maybe a gimp ass pure thrower is OP till people chase him down and stomp him. Most of what I hear about throwers being OP is nonfact fiction, like nerf whines and cries from people who just didn't like dying to one. Alot of cav hate throwers because when people got sick of being dominated by cav we all went and rolled throwers. Cav see my arm rise and just ride away as fast as they can, then wait behind a corner for their chance to one hit me in the back of the head when I am in melee. Besides that I can take down their horse then get owned by the superior rider who is now enraged with 170 wpf in polearm spam.
If you're going to complain about throwing at least try it to lvl 30 first, 4 real. Otherwise you're wasting your time and ours having to listen to your drabble.
The only thing wrong with throwing is its spammable with a very high attack. A small speed nerf to the reload speed or an additional animation like among the lines what archery got would be the best thing for throwing.
If throwing were so OP, you'd see throwers at the top of the scoreboards often. And while I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it definitely isn't the norm.
If throwing were so OP, you'd see throwers at the top of the scoreboards often.
So wait you're the last guy dueling someone with a throwing lance so he's slow with short range and you let him back up ? He does the smart thing and kill you and now you're making a QQ nerf thread !
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I don't know in NA but in EU server it seems to me the majority of ranged melee want back to using xbow.
I find it funny how all the throwers are the ones defending throwing, just like archers were defending archers.
Hmm, Thrower hybrid here speaking up. 100 wpf and 7PT is what I sport.
Personally I think that people are grossly exaggerating how deadly throwing is, but I still think that throwing needs a nerf. I also want to say that it needs a soft nerf, as like it or not throwers are not topping the scoreboards in a dominating fashion. I also think that it is stupid, plain and simple, to make thrower hybrids impossible. Hybrids should be possible, so I still want to see hybrids be playable even after a nerf.
I'm not a thrower, and I think throwing is fine as is. I had one before, sure. But I think EVERYONE should try a class out before they respond to a thread attempting to nerf it. If you haven't played a thrower, I honestly feel that you have no business posting here.
EDIT: Some background info - I have had a pure thrower, hybrid throwers, 2 handers, polearm users, sword and boarders, xbowmen, cav, and archers. By far, I have found it easier to top the scoreboards with a 2h, cav, or polearm than any other style of play.
That's where I stopped reading. Throwing and accurate are 2 things that do not go well together.
Allright, nerf throwing. And the greatswords, high tier polearms, bardiches, nodachi, flameberge and some other weapons that 1 hit kill most of the time.
On my 1h/shield main, wearing 50+ body armour and some IF, I get 1 hit killed A LOT. By those weapons. With sideswings. They are perfectly spammable, as in you can keep swinging them without ever running out of swings. All you have to do is get up to someone (about the same range at which throwing is somewhat accurate) and perform some random directional swings.
I can pick up a masterwork nodachi, deadly bec de corbin or whatever and kill people in 1 hit. I can't even be outspammed eventhough I don't have any wpf in polearms or 2h.
Seriously, learn how to deal with the stuff that get's you killed before whining on the forums.
I think some of the weapons could use higher requirements to use, and wpf having an effect on accuracy would be good too. Not many changes needed apart from that.agreed. The problem with throwing is accessibility, not superiority. If you design the game so that you have to be a dedicated thrower to access the heavy-hitting thrown weapons, then thrown spam is reduced.
agreed. The problem with throwing is accessibility, not superiority. If you design the game so that you have to be a dedicated thrower to access the heavy-hitting thrown weapons, then thrown spam is reduced.Do that and everybody will come back to xbow (which is already partially the case in EU).
Throwing has been OP for way too long. It's a fact that it does so much damage and requires so little. You don't need any WPF to be accurrate, just like archery was like, until the WPF patch came in (where archers needed WPF to be accurrate). You can also switch between melee mode and throwing mode so fast, and you can throw from so close range, not gaining any momentum, and kill someone. It should count as a melee hit from a certain range... I was the last one left in my team, and a thrower with throwing lances was the last one left on the other team. I was dueling him in melee, and he "got tired of blocking," backed up, and threw a lance into me, taking all of my HP. Throwing also does more damage than arrows. What would do more damage, a piercing arrow, or a throwing weapon that should have a chance to flop and hit with the blunt end?:shock: i know who made miley right this! it was me :mrgreen:
I don't think it needs to be completely done away with, but it does need a nerf, and I think a lot of people agree.
I am at the top of scoreboard damn often as a thrower.who are you?
Throwing problems are:
-no reload animations, so thrower can just spam throw many projectiles in short amount of time.
-too many projectiles in single stack (that is heavy) lead to spam throwing, also small axes are suddenly more resistant to stun than every other ah weapon, wtf ?
-general soak and reduction values, damage treshold of stun =1, which promote one high damage strike over multiple strikes from low damage weapon, imo percentage value should be much harder, best would be changing how the armor work)
-general ease to change weapon from throwing to other weapon on your back like most polearms and 2h weapons.
The problem with throwing is that people were used to what it was pre-patch a useless side-kick class with the exception of some rare strength build.
So now it is seen as a new nuisance from most people simply because it was irrelevant in the past. Pre-patch throwing was the most underpowered class.
Do that and everybody will come back to xbow (which is already partially the case in EU).
Not only that but somebody with 5 PT spamming jav does low damage, has terrible accuracy and is total inefficient the real threat are 8-12 PT specialized guys. So you will have less thrower but the one that are able to hit you consistently with lot of damage will still be there so we will be back to the pre-patch situation. Throwing will be non existant ecexpt for that rare strengh build with 10+ PT.
But in a way this is what the majority seem to want, range dominated by bow and xbow, although each has it s specialization.
Bow are good at long-medium-short range with low damage and medium rate of fire (not talking about build with 10PD here)
Xbow are good at medium-short range with medium to high damage but very slow rate of fire, they are at their best when you defend and grimp you team when you attack because you don't participate in the rush. Xbow has a huge advantage over bow and throwing it doesn't require any skill points.
Throwing weapon are only good at short range with they high rate of fire and low to very high damage depending on build. However to score some kill you have to be close to your enemy unlike bow and xbow and that's a huge difference because you 're way more vulnerable to range and melee.
+1, Couldn't agree more.yup yup, PT up and problems fad away, javs at 3pt is a joke -.- make them 5 and you wont see spam as much lol throwing is slow as ballz btw unless your throwing knifes or rocks lol
People said it before me, but I'll say it again:
Increase the PT requirements on all throwing weapons and the spam will decrease.
The problem with throwing is that people were used to what it was pre-patch a useless side-kick class with the exception of some rare strength build.Thx for mentioning my thrower char :mrgreen:
So now it is seen as a new nuisance from most people simply because it was irrelevant in the past. Pre-patch throwing was the most underpowered class.
Do that and everybody will come back to xbow (which is already partially the case in EU).
Not only that but somebody with 5 PT spamming jav does low damage, has terrible accuracy and is total inefficient the real threat are 8-12 PT specialized guys. So you will have less thrower but the one that are able to hit you consistently with lot of damage will still be there so we will be back to the pre-patch situation. Throwing will be non existant ecexpt for that rare strengh build with 10+ PT.
But in a way this is what the majority seem to want, range dominated by bow and xbow, although each has it s specialization.
Bow are good at long-medium-short range with low damage and medium rate of fire (not talking about build with 10PD here)
Xbow are good at medium-short range with medium to high damage but very slow rate of fire, they are at their best when you defend and grimp you team when you attack because you don't participate in the rush. Xbow has a huge advantage over bow and throwing it doesn't require any skill points.
Throwing weapon are only good at short range with they high rate of fire and low to very high damage depending on build. However to score some kill you have to be close to your enemy unlike bow and xbow and that's a huge difference because you 're way more vulnerable to range and melee.
Throwing lances CAN infact be spammed faster than arrows, as I've started doing some test on my thrower, they're also surprisingly accurate and if you can't aim with them it's your own problem as I can aim people and one hit them fine at 7 PT.
Also, anyone with a semi decent aim can just get 1 shot 1 kill easily, so 8 lances can easily amount in 8 kills no problem.(click to show/hide)
That's Taeryl in the middle, he killed 5 people with 5 shots, not sure about what you think, but killing 5 peoples when they can't do anything about it because you can't block throwing lances, and because they're spammable as hell, is pretty stupid.
As opposed to him walking up and chopping you to pieces?I would much prefer ashield duel with lemen then him chopping up my shield into pieces then me with axes. (Your assuming he would chop me into pieces i've yet to 1 on 1 him but I assume it would be a fun fight)
who are you?
no you cant spam lances faster then arrows! nor do you have the aim of the bowman
you get 2 lances in a stack wtf are you talking about? javs get 4... takes 2-3 to kill a man.... 4 to a sheild and it wont even brake lol
have you seen how bad javs are in melee....
you cant be a real thrower, you know little about throwing o.o
I am eu player.
what arrow, what bowman ? it's irrelevant, he can throw them in between and have acc good enough.
6 lances are enough to kill 6 players, you can pick them up. Javs two hit kill most, it's good as you can have 1 of them. They deal high enough damage against shields.
I am thrower, even good thrower who top the scoreboard.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with Katana users that have 24+ agi. Or archers with 10+ PD.
The most broken thing about throwing is that you can throw into someone's face who's 1 millimetre away from you. And removing the melee mode from throwing would fix a lot, too.
I think they should nerf throwing with -30~~% of dmg, -15 of spd rtng of EVERY throwing weapon and +1 PT req to every throwing weapon but stones. Would do the trick.
It's called bump. You bump someone from that distance.So then are you saying this
The most broken thing about throwing is that you can throw into someone's face who's 1 millimetre away from you. And removing the melee mode from throwing would fix a lot, too.Never happens? cause it does all the time you should try it out yourself once in a while it looks very effective.
The biggest issue is that currently throwing is the ONLY ranged weapon which is capable of 1-shotting an average player in average armor with something other than a headshot. Ranged weapons should never 1-shot people without a headshot. That is an issue with throwing and needs to be taken care of.^
As for throwers themselves I played a thrower for a long time and no it doesn't take skill. A bit of luck sure to throw with the force, but it's never taken skill.
The biggest issue is that currently throwing is the ONLY ranged weapon which is capable of 1-shotting an average player in average armor with something other than a headshot. Ranged weapons should never 1-shot people without a headshot. That is an issue with throwing and needs to be taken care of.
As for throwers themselves I played a thrower for a long time and no it doesn't take skill. A bit of luck sure to throw with the force, but it's never taken skill.
EDIT: one thing I would like to see, is the ability to bat incoming projectiles aside with a melee weapon.
how can so many ppl be against throwing nerf? :?
Either they're throwers themselves, or archers.
The way I see it, throwing is fine.I like this guy.
It is the THROWERS who are causing this rage.
My current throwing character has an amazing 10 PT and PS. People rage when I one-shot them with my throwing but rarely when I one-hit them in the face.
If we were to cap PT at 5 and remove lances. And make throwing spears top weaponry I think throwing would become more balanced and we'd get less rage
Of course, many of us throwers will be furious if you lower our capability. But we're OP'd, so we're just being brought down to game standards
OR keep it as it is BUT lower stack size by one across the board but give a permament +2 when heirloomed to stack size (one time only) to sort out dedicated throwers who really want it from the spammy infantry. This way, after 1 heirloom, the throwing weapons would be about the same as now, only less frequent
You have not been blessed in the logic department. Archers demand that throwers recieve the same nerf that they got. :rolleyes:
/end_sarcastic_rant
In all seriousness this thread does bring up good points, but would people so kindly stop exagerating reports of everything? You should realize that other people play this game too, and can and will call you on sky-high claims.
As usual, please take care, and I look forward to brutally murdering you on the battlefield, and experiencing the same inflicted on me. Have fun, and keep up the suggestion threads!
Its definately the high end throwing that needs to be nerfed. Throwing should be encouraged as a hybrid and not as a pure class.
It feels cheesy when I get 1 shot killed from full health by a throwing lance to my body or legs by a guy with an all strength build. There's no other way to describe it but cheese.
I've been away for 4 month. So I suppose I missed that nerf.
And the logic department also tells me than throwers throw at melees rather than at an archer standing 50 yards away, meaning that archers doesn't get point-blank 1shot by some guy that casually backed up and whipped out his throwing-axe because he got nervous about the whole blocking deal.
I've been away for 4 month. So I suppose I missed that nerf.Stupid throwers go for easier targets. Smart ones try to piss off an archer within range.
And the logic department also tells me than throwers throw at melees rather than at an archer standing 50 yards away, meaning that archers doesn't get point-blank 1shot by some guy that casually backed up and whipped out his throwing-axe because he got nervous about the whole blocking deal.
I played an hour and a half on a low pop server (+/-40 people) with my thrower. There was 1 other thrower on my team (level 3 rockthrower :P) and 1 on the enemy team (hybrid with heavy axes).
Depending on the map (some maps are harder than others) I managed to get a 5:1 k/d ratio a few rounds, finishing most maps with a positive kd ratio of >2:1. I was tossing around jarids.
The other thrower was terribad and had a kd ratio of <1:1.
Despite the fact I 1 or 2 hit anyone, nobody cried about it. Not even once. The reason for that was there were much deadlier guys around with their 2h swords or lances from horseback. They had higher kd ratios than I had and were perfectly capable of dodging anything I threw at them when they faced me.
As for the firing rate: As soon as someone came in my effective range, I could throw 2, maybe 3 jarids before being forced to melee. Despite having 10 PS, melee usually ends badly for me when I'm using jarids.
The guys on the enemy team did what everyone should do: Deal with it.
The 2h guys even started bringing 0 shieldskill shields to prevent me from hitting that first jarid.
[Dead*Noob1] OMG FUCKING THROWER
[Dead*Noob2] Jesus fuck op throwing
[Dead*Noob3] banana
[Dead*Noob4] nerf throwing
[Player1] We winning bro
[Dead*Noob5] im going thrower next gen
[Dead*Noob6] throwing is lame
[Player1] We winning bro
oh pls nerf this this really has no sense i just got one shotted with a javelin i thin k in transitional armour and it wasnt even a headshot it was more a gut shot.
this really makes no sense, and the speed dude was chucking those thins rivals a machine gun.
slow the animation and reduce the dmg atleast make it a cut damage
It's possible, though very difficult, to 1-hit a player in heraldic even with a jarid and 10 PS. The online damage calculator says that for that to happen you need to have low-armour gloves, a perfect set-up (i.e. speed), and common bad luck.
oh pls nerf this this really has no sense i just got one shotted with a javelin i think in transitional armour and it wasnt even a headshot it was more a gut shot.
this really makes no sense, and the speed dude was chucking those thins rivals a machine gun.
slow the animation and reduce the dmg atleast make it a cut damage
Hmm... I was able to 1hit in 60% of cases with 13 PT using javelin.
If you have 39 STR you deserve to OS most things. That is beyond dedicated, that is hyperspecialized.
Because my sister enjoyed one-hit-one-killing everyone with javelins while running around in khergit lady dress and without any "player skills": she cant manual block and doesnt know how to properly fight with shield, so thrower that with a bit of luck can kill anyone was a viable option for her.
I think you just described what's wrong with throwing quite nicely. Thanks.take it out of context more please, lets not forget the reediculous 39 str for 13Power throw, leaving what, nothing for anything else? Did your team wheel the character out on a chariot? And nobody could hit this statue?
take it out of context more please, lets not forget the reediculous 39 str for 13Power throw, leaving what, nothing for anything else? Did your team wheel the character out on a chariot? And nobody could hit this statue?
Played on my thrower again yesterday. There was some weird serverlag, so I couldn't hit anything. Ended up with a 2:8 kd ratio.
Switched to my polearmer with awlpike. (15/15 build atm) Finished the map with 11:2 kd ratio.
Awlpikes are OP. NERF!
just to point out the pro and cons of throwing, i done throwing for 13 gens, and i just rerolled for the frist time as a Crossbow user. (xbows are nice due to the fact they take only a little bit to use, for the frist time i have more then 9agi :shock:
daggers-snowflakes 1-2pt(6str)
carry about 8, low damg, high rate of spam. The higher the pt the more pin point they get, they will never brake a teir 2 sheild tho
javs-axes 3-6pt(9-18str)
carry about 4, high damg, avg spam They can and will brake teir 2 sheilds takes 2-3 to kill a man.
throwing lances 7pt(21str)carry about 2, high damg, low spam, they can brake sheild but a teir 2 shild will take 2-3 lances to brake, At 7 pt they wont one shot much, 30%-40% to 1shot a man but at 8-9pt is like 80%
pros
1 throwing is a high str build, you will have a little extra hp
2 throwing is great counter to cav, ponys wont rush you when you can throw axes in them as they run at you/ as they run away.
3 2handers will have to dance around like chickens with there head cut off to not take a hit
4 if you get in on an archer he wont turn and run
5 you are king of mid-close range
Cons
1 high str = low agi
2 sheild peps will laugh as you throw all your weapons into there sheilds only to die by there hand
3 if that 2 hander gets in your face, kiss your ass good bye, you cant run, too slow, best bet it to fight and hope your just better or he is a noob who will hit at you and back up after (miley)
4 bow men will rape you at mid-far range, they have AIM,Range,Speed and we have Power
5 if you throw all your weapons you have to hope you can go pick some up, Cant fight your best with jav-axes, Cant fight with daggers-snowflakes, Lances are avg
6 throwing close will sometimes not work at all, you can get bumbed! and you cna throw though the preson...like there where a ghost!
xbows are high damg, great aim, long range, low wpf and no skill points needed
Bows are low-mid damg, great aim, high wpf and Needs skill points to use
Throwing is high damg mid-close range, bad aim, need some wpf(i always get 100 or the weapon never gose stright) skill points need
How to fix the SPAM? Higher the PT cost of all throwing weapons, low weapons by 2pt and higher teir weapons by 1 pt
daggers- snowflakes 3pt
jav 5pt
axes-throwing spear 6-7pt
Throwing lances 8pt
Dose damg need to be nerfed?I dont think it dose, i made a few post about this, with many other throwers and non throwers, not with people who cry and make a rage post cuz I killed them(miley)
it seems the main and bigest problem is that people throw because to use throwing weapons is so easy, not easy as in skilless, but easy as in low cost to be able to throw.
scrap 3 IF and you can throw jav? WTF thats BS!
--If damg is lowered dont go ape shit, take into count that throwing power rises it up by 7%
a small drop in damg is made up by the pt needed to weild it. so only a little drop is need if one feels its needed at all.
People crying about 1 hit kills are OP makes me laugh. You cant block a couch... that 1 hits, my long maul 1 hits and you cant block that, throwing lances 1 hit too but unlike the couch you can miss or hit and they just dont die. Also if you going to throw, you need a ton of str which rises your 1hit chance by alot. I run 10pt/10ps so i one shot people alot, throwing or melee
people cry "but ponys couch put them in danger" ponys are fast and tend to get away easy if they fail, throwers are slow as ballz and if they fail they are in melee range.
People have said no range should 1 hit kill, and when i hear this it makes me think that no melee should 1 hit kill, but they do so i belive this is blance. Also lances dont 1 hit kill alot with 7pt, like the xbow they 2 hit kill
i can rant more and more about throwing since i know it well, but i done this so much in so many diff post. Throwing is almost fine if not ok, i would raise PT and then it would be perfect. I dont die to spam spam throwers because i know the pro and cons. If a thrower has a sheild he wasted skill points into sheild so his pt is low which means he dosnt have keen aim. If he has lances he dosnt have the speed or wpf to fight me off. i hope this helped some people learn more about throwing
Oh boy here we go, half the stuff you said is bullshit, I have a thrower sitting at 7 PT right now and my throwing lance does infact one hit kill anyone under 50 body armor, it also break fresh huscarls in 1-2 lances. I'm also pretty sure power throw adds10%8% damage per levels, also adding 1-2 PT requirement wont reduce the spam, first of all, the throwing weapons will retain their speed so they'll be as spammable as before, second of all, going 24/15 for a thrower/2hander hybrid with 8 PT for throwing lances is extremely easy.
Oh, I also have to mention aiming and hitting anyone is piss easy, I played a 2hander/thrower hybrid for awhile with 0 prof in throwing and I could just chuck axes in everyone's back with no problem, on my current thrower I have about 60 prof and I can chuck lances in everyone's back with no problem.
7pt dosnt kill every thing with 1 hit kill, you have your mind set on "am right" so no matter what facts people put or share it dosnt get tho your head. if you can 1 shot a guy with 7 pt, u can 1 shot them in melee as well. spam isnt the problem, its how easy it is to use throwing weapons, your the my old friend i was talking about "0wpf"
Oh boy here we go, half the stuff you said is bullshit, I have a thrower sitting at 7 PT right now and my throwing lance does infact one hit kill anyone under 50 body armor, it also break fresh huscarls in 1-2 lances. I'm also pretty sure power throw adds 10% damage per levels, also adding 1-2 PT requirement wont reduce the spam, first of all, the throwing weapons will retain their speed so they'll be as spammable as before, second of all, going 24/15 for a thrower/2hander hybrid with 8 PT for throwing lances is extremely easy.
Oh, I also have to mention aiming and hitting anyone is piss easy, I played a 2hander/thrower hybrid for awhile with 0 prof in throwing and I could just chuck axes in everyone's back with no problem, on my current thrower I have about 60 prof and I can chuck lances in everyone's back with no problem.
Oh boy here we go, half the stuff you said is bullshit, I have a thrower sitting at 7 PT right now and my throwing lance does infact one hit kill anyone under 50 body armor, it also break fresh huscarls in 1-2 lances. I'm also pretty sure power throw adds 10% damage per levels, also adding 1-2 PT requirement wont reduce the spam, first of all, the throwing weapons will retain their speed so they'll be as spammable as before, second of all, going 24/15 for a thrower/2hander hybrid with 8 PT for throwing lances is extremely easy.
Oh, I also have to mention aiming and hitting anyone is piss easy, I played a 2hander/thrower hybrid for awhile with 0 prof in throwing and I could just chuck axes in everyone's back with no problem, on my current thrower I have about 60 prof and I can chuck lances in everyone's back with no problem.
Thirdly: you claim PT adds 10% damage in C-RPG. This is false. Like power strike and power draw, PT only adds 8% damage per level. If you think that is overpowered, then complain about power strike as well.
By the way, you're by no means defenseless when throwing lances run out - at that point you just switch to whatever melee weapon you're using. Durrr.
Wrong. The stats are the same as in native
Wrong. The stats are the same as in native (14% PD, 10% PT, 8% damage). Currently, there is no way to change what skills do, which is why with shields they went along the route of decreasing the base coverage instead of eg. lowering the % gain which shield skill gives to coverage (which led to insane epic forcefields where your back gets protected by a huscarl).
And what can you say about athletics?
I am not sure about this, but I believe you may be misinformed. Last generation, I had a 10 PT archer, and it certainly didn't FEEL like I was doing 90 cut damage per shot with a longbow
Currently, there is no way to change what skills do
Well, that's not exactly the same, actually.
I love how people put arbitrary and false comments right off the back and backs it up with heresay and lies.+1
First off, you claim at 7 power throw, you say you kill "ANYONE" who has less than 50 body armor in 1 hit with a throwing lance. This is false. At 50 body armor, at power throw 7, as someone who has played extensively on both sides of the lance, this is not true. Unless it is a fairly lucky shot, you will survive a lance thrown at you from someone with power throw of 7, unless you have 0 IF and very low strength. If you have 0 IF and very low strength, this is your build's weakness, and you more than make up for it in other ways.
Huscarl shields break from 2 lances. Sometimes true. At the same time, look at the cost for one huscarl shield in your inventory and look at the cost of 1 stack of throwing lances in your inventory. They are both very expensive, but the shielder with the huscarl shield can survive without the shield. If this was your last stack of lances, you would be defenseless. I say its a fair trade off.
Thirdly: you claim PT adds 10% damage in C-RPG. This is false. Like power strike and power draw, PT only adds 8% damage per level. If you think that is overpowered, then complain about power strike as well.
adding 1-2 PT won't reduce the spam. False. Less availability= less abundance. It would also give players incentives to play a different build, since building a hybrid thrower would be significantly more difficult. Remember: increasing the PT requirements by 2 is the equivalent of increasing a weapon's strength requirement by 6. This makes it much more difficult to use.
"Going 8 PT with lances and 2h is very easy." This is an opinion statement. I would say that couch-lancing is easy, or that archery is easy. Neither one would be a definitive fact. You might find throwing agreeable to your playstyle, but thats just you.
"Aiming is easy." Take a look at your aimer. It is the most inaccurate ranged weapon in the game. If throwing lances are easy to hit with, by golly, all ranged weapons are easy-mode. Lances are the most inaccurate, and one of the slowest projectile speed weapons in the game.
"Aiming is easy." Take a look at your aimer. It is the most inaccurate ranged weapon in the game. If throwing lances are easy to hit with, by golly, all ranged weapons are easy-mode. Lances are the most inaccurate, and one of the slowest projectile speed weapons in the game.
So I made a thrower char, currently sitting at 24 str 3 agi. Tried throwing lances and yes, I can honestly say, they are stupid. Whoever is saying their drawback is terrible accuracy is either lying or bad. There is no problem whatsoever with 8 PT and 80ish wpf to hit anyone close range (that is NOT melee range). Obviously, you wont be sniping people far away from you, but with throwing lances you dont have to. With my 8 PT, everytime I hit someone he died in one shot. I am a terrible thrower, my leading target with throwing weapons is bad beyond bad and whenever I use something else than lances I'm happy for 1 K/D ratio. With lances, I have no problem to go 2+.
Not to mention they are quite potent melee weapons as well, so you can always keep one of them if you run out and just poke people, taking on the support role.
Add WPF into the mix and you're looking at twice as much damage increase for the Throwing Lance as you are the German Greatsword. 100 WPF is roughly a 25% damage increase.
Throwing lances do three times as much damage as the best pierce damaging Two-Handed weapon. We can go through all the advantages and disadvantages of throwing vs 2h spec later. For now, just look at the numbers.
its actually 17% more damage at 100 wpf, but you're looking at a weapon that requires considerably less strength than a throwing lance... and the pierce damage for 2h isn't that great anymore. They're really apples and oranges. I wouldn't make a comparison between the two.
Honestly, the only way throwing lances are used in an effective manner is taking down horses. The only time I ever use them is if there is an abundance of cavalry. There are simply so many better options for dealing with infantry than throwing lances. Hell, I'd rather have a few stacks of war-darts than throwing lances if I'm dealing with infantry.This is all just opinion (that I would disagree with mind you), there isn't a single supporting argument to be found here.
1 problem though, if you missed the horse you were dead and if you missed the rider, you had a very angry 24-30 agility knight with 200+ wpf in polearms storming you.
Boohoo! Throwers are killing me! Nerf them!The buying a shield argument is terrible for two-handers, polearms and bows. Why? Well maybe because you are completely defenseless behind that shield.
Shut up, buy a shitty shield and laugh as you close the distance and murder them in melee because any dedicated thrower will have no ironflesh, at max 50-60 wpf in a melee weapon, and will rarely have more than 3 athletics because any good thrower has power throw 10 so you can two/three hit people with war darts.
You have a problem with lances? Buy a shitty shield or two, and watch them waste their only 2 lances on those shields...and then murder them
You have a problem with javelins? See above
You have a problem with axes? Dodge them until you are close and use above shitty shield that requires no skill to use
You have a problem with darts/snowflakes/knives/rocks? BUY A DAMN SHIELD
With my thrower I laugh at all the 2h spammers that just run at me and get a lance in the chest or foot or where ever it actually hits them. I then cry as I see anyone with a shield coming right at me because unless the 2 lances I have break their shield...I am boned. With my 2hander, I again laugh as a thrower desperately tries to run away as I am faster than them, and soak up or dodge all their weapons and then murder them in melee.
In short...BUY A DAMN SHIELD
its actually 17% more damage at 100 wpf, but you're looking at a weapon that requires considerably less strength than a throwing lance... and the pierce damage for 2h isn't that great anymore. They're really apples and oranges. I wouldn't make a comparison between the two.the whole thread is about nerfing throwing and when he compare the ~best~ 2h with the ~best~ throwing wep you say the 2h are to weak to compare with, while at the same time you try to defend throwing.
the whole thread is about nerfing throwing and when he compare the ~best~ 2h with the ~best~ throwing wep you say the 2h are to weak to compare with, while at the same time you try to defend throwing.
............
The buying a shield argument is terrible for two-handers, polearms and bows. Why? Well maybe because you are completely defenseless behind that shield.
Let's create a basic scenario that I see all the time. A thrower(you can substitute in any type of throwing weapon for this example) and any melee person are on the same team and the melee is acting as somewhat of a guard for the thrower. 'You' put on the shitty shield you speak of and the melee will destroy it in only a couple seconds, if not a single blow(actually several throwing weapons oneshot the lowest tier shields). At this point you're vulnerable to the thrower and the melee as you currently don't even have your weapon out. Obviously at this point you would pull out whatever melee weapon you had but then you'd be stuck in the same position if you didn't even have a shield except with possibly less health since your shield broke.
Or we can change the scenario up a bit, you use an elite cavalry shield instead, a rather decent shield that won't get one shot. So you pull out this elite cavalry shield and now you're making your way towards the thrower, but wait! The melee appears and now you have no way to attack either of them if you don't want to get raped by the thrower, so you drop your shield to reduce the total weight you're wearing and yet again, you're in the same position that you would be, if you didn't have the shield at all.
Sure you can argue that the shield would help you get in "close" range, but you don't ever need a shield to do that anyway. We all know throwing is just SO inaccurate that you have to use it in melee range, right?
Edit: You stated "sheild or two" at one point. This is completely unacceptable to -any- athletics build. Because of athletics mechanics, you simply cannot be hauling around that much weight.
So you basically want every 2h to be able to kill 2 players at once with no risk of getting killed?You've managed to completely miss the point and attempt to put words in my mouth. I'm merely pointing out the reality of the uselessness of a shield for two-handers and polearm users. I've stated nothing referring to how 2hers should be able to kill 2 players at once with no risk.
You're alone against 2 people. OFC you're in trouble. Maybe if you find a teammate with a huscarl shield to hide behind, you can close in and murder the thrower while your teammate keeps the other guy busy or you kill the other guys while the shielder murders the thrower.
It's the same with 2 archers. You're not going to kill them if they don't stand on eachothers heads. Even as a shielder, you will get killed if they play it smart.
You've managed to completely miss the point and attempt to put words in my mouth. I'm merely pointing out the reality of the uselessness of a shield for two-handers and polearm users. I've stated nothing referring to how 2hers should be able to kill 2 players at once with no risk.
And for your example, fighting 2 or more ranged units isn't very much like fighting 1 ranged and one melee. You will always be able to put the ranged and the melee on your screen at the same time, if you make it your goal to. With two ranged, you can't exactly do that. If you're fighting one of them and both are on your screen, they're not even trying to surround you. Meaning they aren't playing smart.
Not really. The way a 2h player should use a shield is to close up on ranged. When you get close enough, you drop the thing and pull out your weapon. Not that hard to do when facing a single ranged unit. When there's more of them (either more archers or melee), you can get help from more of your team too. If you can't, you're either flanking by yourself or your team got killed.When facing a single ranged, sure. How often is it actually a single ranged not accompanied by any allies? It's rare. Just as rare as you not having any allies of your own. Though even if you outnumber them by a few, battle doesn't just come down to 1v1s, it's not as simple as 10v10 = 10 1v1s. That's just not the case.
You're telling us the "buy a shield" argument doesn't work and give an example with more than 1 enemy vs just you.
Secondly, if you're fighting a melee and a ranged unit and they play it right (most of the time they do), the melee guy will move to your backside forcing you to turn around or get hit in the back. When you turn, guess what? The archer is now behind you. Even making you turn 90 degrees is enough to give his archer teammate a clear shot at you.
I just got one-shotted by a throwing lance, I'm lvl 30, 5 IF, and was wearing 40k stuff, with heraldic Tabard. I mean c'mon?!So you're saying a Throwing lance, when thrown, should be more powerful than a Greatsword with the weight of its user behind it? To be honest, a throwing lance couldn't 1shot someone unless it hit a vital. Ever try throwing one before? They don't have nearly as much penetration as a bow and arrow or a crossbow, unless you ARC the jav. Meaning you throw it with at least a 45 degree angle and let gravity do the work(meaning you have zero accuracy). This isn't how Javs or lances are thrown in crpg though, they're thrown directly ahead, parallel to the ground.
The guy obviously was a dedicated thrower, so he carried 8 lances. Couldn't we limitate the amount of throwing ammo? I mean where the hell does he put his 8 lances while running?
Now obviously this is a game and after all we do carry ladders... But in one way restraining the amount of ammo might nerf them kind of, because I do think that a throwing lance thrown at full speed can one shot a man whatever he might be wearing (except maybe full plate).
Same is to the guys who carry like 20 axes of course... :wink:
I just got one-shotted by a throwing lance, I'm lvl 30, 5 IF, and was wearing 40k stuff, with heraldic Tabard. I mean c'mon?!
The guy obviously was a dedicated thrower, so he carried 8 lances. Couldn't we limitate the amount of throwing ammo? I mean where the hell does he put his 8 lances while running?
Now obviously this is a game and after all we do carry ladders... But in one way restraining the amount of ammo might nerf them kind of, because I do think that a throwing lance thrown at full speed can one shot a man whatever he might be wearing (except maybe full plate).
Same is to the guys who carry like 20 axes of course... :wink:
I have a similar build on one character, and I frequently get 1 shot by melee weapons. Why do throwing lances need a nerf when a melee weapon can do the same amount of damage, minus ammo limits?
I would love to see your build then, because there is no way you are gonna get "frequently one shot" with anything close to what MrExxc posted.
But that is expected from a weapon most people pack with str build for the crushthrough.
Too bad the great maul can't be thrown, too bad the great maul can be outspammed relatively easily, too bad the great maul can be footworked relatively easily, too bad you can chamber the great maul, too bad you have to get within danger zone to attack with the great maul.
You can block them... you just need a shield. Two handed weapons have enormous killing power, and are very reasonably vulnerable to ranged weapons.
You can dodge throwing lances too. Buy a shit-shield just to be on the safe side, approach with the shield, pull out your weapon when you can face hug them. If they try to throw, they will suffer the bump animation.
P.S. Even if you chamber block a crush-through weapon, it reduces the damage by the same amount as if you blocked with a shield.
Pretty sure that's false, on my 9 PS guy I tried the great maul and I had to hit a peasant THRICE to kill him, he chambered my first two overheads.
Pretty sure you can't chamber a CT overhead...
Pretty sure you can't chamber a CT overhead...You can, one of two things will happen. You successfully block their attack and get your own off(this is rare as hell) or they crush your chamber as if it were a block, which is what they're talking about.
Throwing in a damn 50% speed bonus isn't just a bit ridiculous, it's completely bullshit. You will never have a 50% speed bonus as melee, ever. Just go into single player, go to the arena and run directly towards your foe who is likely running directly toward you.
For people familiar with how the physics of this game functions, it is not too difficult to get a pretty good speed bonus by moving into your swings, and swinging based on the movement of your enemy. On horseback, I have seen 300% speed bonuses. I'm pretty sure on foot, you can get 50%. I will test in singleplayer and try to get you a SS.I did manage to get a 31% speed bonus, but that was with a jump. Otherwise I wasn't really able to get anything above 20% on foot. Simply running directly towards an opponent that was also charging me would only net a max speed bonus of 15%. I'll admit I only tested this over the duration of two full length arena battles. Regardless, it seems like we're talking about something that is rather rare, not something you can consistently do, especially with more and more people getting less athletics. It might also be worth mentioning that in the area you are completely naked, thus not slowed by body armor, adding to your speed.
Seawied, I'm rather disappointed that you would immediately choose to use a weapon which several people think is op, then you offer to run the numbers with another weapon that people think is broken, the bec. Both of these weapons being the highest damage of their class against mid to high armored foes. You first use blunt damage, then you use pierce damage. Most 2hers that are used are cut damage, same with poleaxes. How about you run the numbers with one of the highest tier, most popular weapons. Your damage won't be anywhere near as high.
Throwing in a damn 50% speed bonus isn't just a bit ridiculous, it's completely bullshit. You will never have a 50% speed bonus as melee, ever. Just go into single player, go to the arena and run directly towards your foe who is likely running directly toward you. If you can get higher than a 30% speed bonus I want a screen shot. You'll probably get a 10% and under most of the time. I'll concede the point if you're only stating what is "possible" not what will happen the vast majority of the time in reality. We might as well bring up the fact that 1handers can one-shot people as well if we're talking about what is "possible".
With your build and the highest damaging 2her swung with 8 power swing and zero speed bonus, you have a damage range of 45 to 63. Nowhere in here does it allow someone to conclude "frequently one shot". Throw some cut damage in there and you get "never", even with a reasonable 10% speed bonus. Don't tweak numbers so they're in your favor, you're too intelligent to be pulling bullshit like this.
You can, one of two things will happen. You successfully block their attack and get your own off(this is rare as hell) or they crush your chamber as if it were a block, which is what they're talking about.
40% to 50% isn't unreasonable in single player..96 is 12 power strike, not 8 power strike, the maximum you could have with 24 strength. You also can't have 150 wpf with 12 or even 8 PS. Meaning your numbers are impossible to achieve.
You want a cutting damage sword? Sure, no problem. Numbers line up the same
45c from sarranid battle axe (an incredibly inexpensive weapon by the way.)
1 * ((45 * (1 + 0.96) * (1 + ((150 / 200) * .015)) * (1 + 0.10)) + (24 - 14)) = 108.111475
armor= 40.
40*.5*.8=16
108-16=92
Still, a one shot kill.
I have yet to see someone complain about the Sarranid battle axe. It also costs 1/3rd the price of a throwing lance. This was also calculated with a 10% speed bonus. Verdict stands that 1-shotting weapons are plentiful in the game.
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
* Strength: 24
* Agility: 15
* Hit points: 71
* Converted: 8
* Ironflesh: 6
* Power Strike: 8
* Shield: 0
* Athletics: 4
* Riding: 0
* Horse Archery: 0
* Power Draw: 0
* Power Throw: 0
* Weapon Master: 5
* One Handed: 1
* Two Handed: 148
* Polearm: 1
* Archery: 1
* Crossbow: 1
* Throwing: 1
And the removal of throwing lances would probably end 80% of the "nerf throwing" calls.
Nah, people would still find a way to whine. Archers have been nerfed into oblivion and people still complain. There's a significant portion of the c-rpg community that wants the mod to make 2h weapons clearly superior than the rest of the classes.
2) While long throwing lances probably existed somewhere (the taleworlds devs were actually pretty serious about historic accuracy, read the M&B beta board), they just seem like a fantasy weapon to me.They did exist, but they weren't even remotely used for what they are in crpg. When they were thrown, they were arced. Meaning they were thrown high into the air where they used gravity to increase its speed. Not thrown parallel to the ground at an oncoming target. This is a huge difference.
They did exist, but they weren't even remotely used for what they are in crpg. When they were thrown, they were arced. Meaning they were thrown high into the air where they used gravity to increase its speed. Not thrown parallel to the ground at an oncoming target. This is a huge difference.
Seawied: Thanks for the more detailed numbers but the calculator does figure in minimum and maximum armor effectiveness as well as strength bonus. Still, 64% compared to 96% would reduce the damage a fair amount. Also, for the sake of "completeness" we should throw the maximum damage effectiveness in there, which would be 32 damage. With your formula, it would be 94 raw damage and 62 damage to 78 damage after armor, depending on armor effectiveness.
Still, comparing the numbers to that of the infinitum calculator its off by a lot, take out the speed bonus and I'm getting 31-54 damage. Not that I'm saying your numbers are made up, I'll just have to do some more research to find the formula myself. :x
Well id be happy with a damage nerf if the accuracy and velocity of throwing went back to what it used to be and it used to be pinpoint, trust me on this.
Oh? Then how can I trust you?
Besides lances havn't changed much.
Other weapons are vastly different, jarids in particular are much much slower and with a heavier drop off than they used to have, plus they fly off a lot more now from my experience. As for 8 generation thrower how cute, my original thrower was before retireing even existed and once they put it in I got to around generation 12, big bag of darts, balanced war darts, balanced knives, balanced throwing spears and I think a big bag of snowflakes.
My original one was named PrimalSmirk, then it was dastikka for a while, then damugga, then this new patch came out and I lost my chars, something I was trying to rectify on IRC ages ago through Alpha, since I couldnt get on it, but which ive now given up on and instead made new characters.
But yeah you cant trust me anymore than I can trust you. Only people who could back me up on this would be the templars. Besides, I dont expect you to remember me much since I was a low key player and these days I hardly play atall and usually when I do im very lazy and sloppy :lol:. Im starting to wish I had been one of those vain players who make videos of themselves playing, but that's my loss.
Ah ok, then it seems were are in a similar mindset.
Sorry about the generalisation that they were all pinpoint, lances, as you said, are not, but then again as I said they havn't changed much.
Also as you quite rightly said, people have suddenly started noticing throwers and complaining about them, only because they got used.
However ive thrown in the towel somewhat when it comes to arguing about them as it seems most people have been propagandised into the mindset that throwing is this all powerful tool of destruction so I think regardless of what people like us say they will still probably get nerfed further if the complaints continue and towing that line I thought maybe if they did reduce damage that they would bring back the better velocity and less drop off.
Although I have noticed less and less throwers on the servers these days, so maybe the craze has ended. :P
Crossbowing is the new throwing.
And people will complain about it, too. People won't stop complaining about ranged weapons until you HAVE to be specialized to use a ranged weapon, and even when specialized, you won't be able to effectively kill people. THEN, people will say, "Yeah, ranged weapons are good right now."
I don't think whining about range will ever stop. Even if you make every range weapon useless there still will be enough players that enjoy shooting people and those people will still whine. It doesn't matter that they would hardly feel the damage, as long as someone dares to interrupt their melee they will never shut up.
I don't think whining about range will ever stop. Even if you make every range weapon useless there still will be enough players that enjoy shooting people and those people will still whine. It doesn't matter that they would hardly feel the damage, as long as someone dares to interrupt their melee they will never shut up.
I guess folks get too used to being capable in melee that they can't stand feeling impotent against ranged enemy. The remedy isn't to make ranged players impotent but a more mature mindset about gaming generally. Or, like me, use a shield.
Would it be worth it to spend a gen on extensive tests for throwing regarding:
wpf
PT
armor weight
?
Throwing needs a major nerf. It takes almost no skill and has severely cut down on the melee combat in c-RPG.
Rocks and stuff are pinpoint accurate from PT 7 and up I thought.Nope. 7 PT rock is comparable to a 75 WPF crossbow.
Should just make all weapons that are over req PT 3 unusable with shield. Still let's throwing be a potent hybrid class but gives it a little less flexibility.Kind of a useless suggestion considering 'darts' @ PT1.
But that's because you suck Testic- Chestacleses.
Throwing is fine, stop crying.
Whats all the fuzz about? Played 2-handersame here1several gens now, throwing where the least of my problems, if I saw a thrower guy aiming for me, I went the other way instead of bein a dumbass cunt and charge him and get killed and then whine on the forums.
same herethe fuzz is people like the kid who post this tread are sad, read what happens in the frist post, she fights me, then backs up? giving a thrower room to throw? ya ok i'll take a free shot, i did and she died :|
Common Arguments From Throwers
1 - We don't have much ammo
Response - For one any thrower with a brain stem can find 40 axes laying around and two, the low ammo is a result of your weapon being the launcher and the ammo
(whereas bows and xbows have a second item taking up slots)
2 - Throwing weapons are expensive
Response - This expense is a failed attempt to make a skill void style only viable to devoted
pre-FOTM throwers. Other ranged classes require that you buy a weapon in addition to the somewhat expensive quiver. high tier crossbows (heavy/sniper) (with steel bolts) cost more money to deploy than 3 bags of javalins or the more likely 2 bags of jarids (3 bags of jarids with sniper)
3 - Archers and crossbows have long range so we deserve to be faster and deal more damage
Response - Long range combat is a term not known to most ranged. Their accuracy and range plays a minor role as combat in M&B is frequently a bar fight with swords. And due to this accuracy archers cannot mow down plate armored beasts coming to fight them. A feat that is frequently more valuable than random headshots to people that do not pose direct threat
Realism Argument Thrown In
While some of you scoff at realism and call it =/= to balance i am inclined to agree.
Realism is not balance but realism guides balance, would you not say?
For instance would it make sense that a club does more blunt damage than a mace? no it would not but this is a rather crude example of this thought.
Balance is built around realism all the while making things fair for all
so why does it make sense that a weapon, thrown into the air by imperfect human hands, traveling through air resistance effecting it significantly due to the large surface area (compared to other projectiles) and fighting the wind, to hit the target at a most likely flawed angle, does more damage than an awlpike.
A weapon meant exclusively for the purpose of thrusting. Thusted or run through with the weight and strength of a man's TWO arms. The same arms that would throw the javalins and such.
Backed by the weight of a man and motivated by the strength of his arms, his legs, or both, an awlpike does less damage than a javalin thrown with one arm fighting through all the above mentioned forces.