cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Lanic0r on March 11, 2012, 06:43:53 pm

Title: Archer´s draw
Post by: Lanic0r on March 11, 2012, 06:43:53 pm
You should change the drawing system for bows completely!
instead of taking time before archers crossshair becomes tight it should spread in no time and prevent this stupid holding time for >3 seconds before release.
Either these shitcunts shoot right after 0.5sec or crosshair should spread like the big bang!
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Christo on March 11, 2012, 06:46:03 pm
Problem isn't with their draw time imo.

The real problem is how damn mobile they can be, even when you hit them with a melee weapon, they just accelerate-out of your melee range and kite you again.

Also, wrong section.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Miley on March 11, 2012, 07:35:33 pm
Archers aren't a problem. Do you want to give crossbows and throwing another +?
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Christo on March 11, 2012, 07:36:42 pm
Yes they are.

You might not have an infestation of runchers over there, but it's horrible on EU.

Horrible.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 11, 2012, 07:46:11 pm
Playing on EU, and also looking at the damage comparisons that were posted for NA and EU, your archers are dealing the same total in NA despite being 50% more common.

Be happy that they are too busy running to be effective. Also be happy that most of them have crap awareness   :lol:
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Christo on March 11, 2012, 07:48:37 pm
Be happy that they are too busy running to be effective. Also be happy that most of them have crap awareness   :lol:

I think I see it the total opposite, at least from my experiences.

Typos are cool yo.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 11, 2012, 07:51:39 pm
I think I see it the total opposite, at least from my experiences.

Typos are cool yo.

Regardless, you have more archers on EU, and the damage total numbers posted were almost identical. To each their own though.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Oberyn on March 11, 2012, 08:11:38 pm
How do you know there are more archers in EU, the stats cmp gave did not have number of players per class. Also I want to punch your avatar in the face.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 11, 2012, 08:15:40 pm
How do you know there are more archers in EU, the stats cmp gave did not have number of players per class. Also I want to punch your avatar in the face.

Well everytime I play there it goes from a light rainstorm to a heavy rainstorm when compared to arrow spam. I rarely have to dodge so much when in NA, nor do I hear so many thunks around me, and there are a crapton of archers it seems at all times. Gnjus also agrees  :mrgreen:

As for your second part, I am extremely pleased to hear that, and I shall keep this avatar then for a very long time since it has been so polarizing for so many people (I liked Boxxy, was rather amusing).
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Mike_of_Kingswell on March 11, 2012, 08:23:48 pm
Yea...about time for another guy to come around and cry out loud "NERF ARCHERY"

sad...
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Niemand on March 11, 2012, 08:42:43 pm
Seems like you never played an archer. Well I don't give a shit about your whining, but you should know:

I got 5 Powerdraw, 160 Archery, using a Horn Bow.

My Crosshair opens after 2 to 3 seconds. When I move while aiming the crosshair nearly hits the frames of my 23" screen. I got to archer close-range from time to time, since I am a pure-archer and got no second weapon. I just release the arrow while the crosshair is open wide and often I make a lucky hit. - So the small-crosshair-time is too small in my opinion but I think its fair, I don't complain.

I am using Tatar-Arrows... and all I seem to do is wounding the enemy so my team can kill them easier. I barely make any kills with it - but I hit pretty often, so I do not really suck at playing, I guess. I also need around 5 Arrows to get somebody down that is wearing Leather-Armour. When I gotta shoot Tincans... well... I guess 10 to 15 arrows are not enough. While I get killed by onehits from XBows when I am using my 30/9 (10 IF) Trollarm-Char. Also my Archer gets killed by Bolts 7 out of 10 Deaths. - So my damage Is not even high enough to kill a peasant with one shot. I am not complaining about that, I just shoot another arrow.

Yes, there may be a lot of archers. But not everybody is suited for blocking/chambering or spamming/fainting.
A Greatsword kills me with two hits... I got onehitted by Onehand-swords, too. Once in a while some tincan-bastard comes at me weaponless and just bashes me to death with his steel gloves. :D

Quote
Edit: To state more negative things about archery:
- If somebody runs into us, we gotta draw again.
- We can't wear heavier armour without having some heavy malus on our WPF.
- Nearly no one tries to help the archers in their team, that are in danger.
- Whenever somebody sees us he rushes for us, instead of fighting the guy he was one on one before. They do not care if they get killed, as long as they kill us.

You wanna nerf archers? Play one for 3 Month before you complain.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Jarlek on March 12, 2012, 03:09:52 am
Archers aren't a problem. Do you want to give crossbows and throwing another +?
Are you saying throwers have more perks than archers?
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Vibe on March 12, 2012, 08:57:37 am
Less running power, more melee power for archers?
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on March 12, 2012, 09:05:53 am
Buff throwing  :wink:
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Niemand on March 12, 2012, 11:01:55 am
Less running power, more melee power for archers?
No need. Everything is fine as it is.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Vibe on March 12, 2012, 11:08:40 am
No need. Everything is fine as it is.

Kiting for half of the map is fine how? Even I do it sometimes on my archer. Anyone who hasn't 8 ath and low armor can't catch a kiting archer. And then all they do is sprint away for half a minute, turn and shoot.

Reduce ath when bow draw by a third or half, just like carrying a ball in Rageball. To compensate, give them more melee power.

Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Materia on March 12, 2012, 11:32:13 am
Archer need no melee power, its not melee unit!

Not everyone runs away, there are few (from what I have seen), that constantly piss their pants and run away. Just get rid of them, or fix the mod. The mod is causing problems, not players that are using it like that.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Cup1d on March 12, 2012, 11:34:26 am
Quote
Reduce ath when bow draw by a third or half, just like carrying a ball in Rageball. To compensate, give them more melee power.

What do you have in mind with your «more melee power»?



Quote
Archer need no melee power, its not melee unit!

Any archer IRL has backup weapon. Up to longsword. And without slot system running archer was incredible rare.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Materia on March 12, 2012, 11:34:43 am
IRL lots of things are impossible, if you want to talk about "Real Life".. then this mod should be redone in every single aspect, just like the Mount & Blade itself.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Vibe on March 12, 2012, 11:36:22 am
What do you have in mind with your «more melee power»?



Any archer IRL has backup weapon. Up to longsword.

Straight up buff to damage done by melee weapons without needing power strike, I guess it could be tied to your archery wpf and what your current PS is. On top of that, maybe make more 1 handers 0 slot.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Niemand on March 12, 2012, 12:59:11 pm
Kiting for half of the map is fine how? Even I do it sometimes on my archer. Anyone who hasn't 8 ath and low armor can't catch a kiting archer. And then all they do is sprint away for half a minute, turn and shoot.

Reduce ath when bow draw by a third or half, just like carrying a ball in Rageball. To compensate, give them more melee power.

I have NO athletics. You got athletics and/or meelee-skill on your archer? Lol. Nub. Go Respec.

Yes, I run away. But I always run to my people so they can defend me. I dont turn around and shoot very often while somebody is hunting me. I try to get some help from my teammates or pick up a meelee-weapon to defend myself (I can block around 4 of 10 attacks, depending on the attackers-spamming-"skill").

I did run before the slot-system was there and I still do. Who cares? Thats what an archer is. Back in that times archers did run, too. Maybe you should get some stones and kill the archer with them while following him when he runs away. that works pretty well, because a good archer does not wear any armor that is heavier than cloth/wool.

If you want to nerf archers, then buff horses. They go down very fast when I shoot for them. So horses really could take some more damage. Then Archers have something they can be afraid of again.

Archers really are not meelee-units. If its a pure-archer he sucks at meelee and deals some damage on range. I think the balancing at the moment is alright.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Leshma on March 12, 2012, 01:51:37 pm
Pure archer is bullshit that exists only in this mod. It's cRPG exclusive concept created by min-maxing archers who are the worst min-maxers and power gamers this mod has ever seen.

Quote
I did run before the slot-system was there and I still do. Who cares? Thats what an archer is. Back in that times archers did run, too.


No, that's what you are.

In those times everyone run when they were facing a larger threat. But they couldn't wiggle out of danger and change movement directions five times in one second because they are human beings with inertia not this shit we call human being in Warband. Problem with this game is that only when you're using weapons your body reacts somewhat realistically, but when you're running around it's fucking Benny Hill on steroids.

Same goes for both horses and humans. Horses actually have that advantage that they don't change their movement when rider is attacking someone. Humans do, they are slower when fighting.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: MrShine on March 12, 2012, 02:41:44 pm
Pure archer is bullshit that exists only in this mod. It's cRPG exclusive concept created by min-maxing archers who are the worst min-maxers and power gamers this mod has ever seen.

First of all, what?

Second of all, deciding to be a non-pure archer is deciding to be like a hybrid xbowmen only shittier because you need to invest more skillpoints as an archer.  It's not an issue of min-maxing, but one of actually having an effective build.

Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Cup1d on March 12, 2012, 02:43:57 pm
IRL lots of things are impossible, if you want to talk about "Real Life".. then this mod should be redone in every single aspect, just like the Mount & Blade itself.

Bought the game yesterday, installed cRPG yesterday. This mod cause problems to me.
Once I exit the mod, it doesnt want to start again giving me .exe error, I have to click the icon, and choose "repair" every time I want to play it, its annoying.
Any way to fix it?

For a person who are playing warband and cRPG for three days only, you are too quick with your suggestions
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Jarlek on March 12, 2012, 04:27:55 pm
Less running power, more melee power for archers?
This is something I've asked for ages ago. Decrease the archers ranged and/or kiting power, and make it more natural for them to take at least partly melee stuff too.

Straight up buff to damage done by melee weapons without needing power strike, I guess it could be tied to your archery wpf and what your current PS is. On top of that, maybe make more 1 handers 0 slot.
If you saw that thread (Thomek posted, I think?) about nerfing PS and buffing base damage of all weapons, I think this would help a lot. Not just for archers, but also for AGI people. One of my old suggestions was also to change archery wpf so that it mainly gives shooting speed bonus, and accuracy/damage is basically just dependent on the bow. You could still go "pure" archery and shoot faster, but it would make it more sensible to drop the last 5-10 archery wpf and instead get 50 1h/2h/pole wpf. I really don't care WHAT they do, as long as they make "pure" archers unable to kite and give them some boost somewhere else. Leshma is right. Min/maxing is out of hand with arches. This has to stop.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: duurrr on March 12, 2012, 05:11:44 pm
just remove range

this game is about melee, range is just a gimmick
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 12, 2012, 05:38:55 pm
just remove range

this game is about melee, range is just a gimmick

How about you start supporting those melee only servers that keep dying slow painful deaths or barely limp on. Until then, majority says keep range.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Bulzur on March 12, 2012, 05:43:56 pm
I remember somthing similar was suggested a while back, and wich (contrary to this one) actually made sense and a good sense of balance.

I'll just throw it back here :
-enable a max draw time for all bow. If you exceed it, your fingers get rip, the arrow falls to the ground, and ingame, you have a kick-like effect. Damn, you've hold that bow too long, and it just damn hurt. To not hinder anyone too much, put that limit at 5sec.

Will prevent thoses pointblank shooting after holding and moving during 10sec. Will not change anything to the normal hold for a little bit to feint, then shoot - archers.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 12, 2012, 05:51:30 pm
Kiting for half of the map is fine how? Even I do it sometimes on my archer. Anyone who hasn't 8 ath and low armor can't catch a kiting archer. And then all they do is sprint away for half a minute, turn and shoot.

Reduce ath when bow draw by a third or half, just like carrying a ball in Rageball. To compensate, give them more melee power.
My suggestion was to make bows weight a hell of a lot (and then allow archers to shoot while moving + give them ability to use melee) in my thread, also, archers claiming they can't wear armor are full of shit, my longbow archer felt no difference between his slightly above medium/near heavy armor set and nakedness.
I know archers think it's ok for them to be unkillable but it ain't only HA/HT/HC should be un-meleeable.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 12, 2012, 05:55:52 pm
Pure archer is bullshit that exists only in this mod. It's cRPG exclusive concept created by min-maxing archers who are the worst min-maxers and power gamers this mod has ever seen.
 

No, that's what you are.

In those times everyone run when they were facing a larger threat. But they couldn't wiggle out of danger and change movement directions five times in one second because they are human beings with inertia not this shit we call human being in Warband. Problem with this game is that only when you're using weapons your body reacts somewhat realistically, but when you're running around it's fucking Benny Hill on steroids.

Same goes for both horses and humans. Horses actually have that advantage that they don't change their movement when rider is attacking someone. Humans do, they are slower when fighting.
Holy shit... Leshma makes another post I 100% agrees with, I think I need to see a psychologist...
As for your second part, I am extremely pleased to hear that, and I shall keep this avatar then for a very long time since it has been so polarizing for so many people (I liked Boxxy, was rather amusing).
But... she isn't Asian-looking!? Even the green lawn chair had a "made in china" mark on it's bottom (you just couldn't see it).
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Wraist on March 12, 2012, 06:10:00 pm
First of all, what?

Second of all, deciding to be a non-pure archer is deciding to be like a hybrid xbowmen only shittier because you need to invest more skillpoints as an archer.  It's not an issue of min-maxing, but one of actually having an effective build.

My hybrid has 8PS and 8PD and I can't hit for shit :|, when I see a meleer with an xbow, they typically hit me fine though [then again first gen as an archer :|]. However, once I started playing as a hybrid, primarily using a bow, I started to hate enemy archers even more...
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Niemand on March 12, 2012, 09:09:35 pm
8PD AND 8PS...
lol dude? What WPF do you have on archery? 20? Of course you can't hit shit with that build because archery and PD need to stand in some weird kind of relation. You should get "Your archery is not high enough!" all the time. PD is for damage, not for accuracy.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Materia on March 12, 2012, 11:56:09 pm
For a person who are playing warband and cRPG for three days only, you are too quick with your suggestions

Playing on my own CDkey now, have been playing for months in total. Both Mount & Blade, + Warband.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Rumblood on March 13, 2012, 12:00:11 am
I remember somthing similar was suggested a while back, and wich (contrary to this one) actually made sense and a good sense of balance.

I'll just throw it back here :
-enable a max draw time for all bow. If you exceed it, your fingers get rip, the arrow falls to the ground, and ingame, you have a kick-like effect. Damn, you've hold that bow too long, and it just damn hurt. To not hinder anyone too much, put that limit at 5sec.

Will prevent thoses pointblank shooting after holding and moving during 10sec. Will not change anything to the normal hold for a little bit to feint, then shoot - archers.

I can't wait to hear your suggestion for those perma-drawn xbows.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: B3RS3RK on March 13, 2012, 12:01:03 am
(I liked Boxxy, was rather amusing).

I liked her too, she was ultrahot.I wish there were some porntapes of her, though.


@Archers: Archers should always be nerfed.cRPG without nerfing archers is like...I dont know, I guess it wouldnt be the same.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Wraist on March 13, 2012, 12:19:21 am
8PD AND 8PS...
lol dude? What WPF do you have on archery? 20? Of course you can't hit shit with that build because archery and PD need to stand in some weird kind of relation. You should get "Your archery is not high enough!" all the time. PD is for damage, not for accuracy.

123 archery wpf, and I know that, my build is to soften targets to make them easier to kill in melee :\
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Niemand on March 13, 2012, 07:43:12 am
when you wanna soften them get 5 PD and 140+Archery WPF. With that you can at least hit them.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: MrShine on March 13, 2012, 01:18:39 pm
Or just go xbowmen if you're shooting to soften people up but primarily focus in melee.  Again as a hybrid being a crossbowman >>>>> being an archer.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on March 13, 2012, 05:15:48 pm
Make xbow 2slot? Help balance xbow vrs bow with reduction in ammo but limited to 1slot weapons.

21/15 archer is more than melee capable with 5if 7ps 7pd 5ath 130wpf 90melee.

Not understanding the pr oblem.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Vibe on March 14, 2012, 11:43:19 am
Make xbow 2slot? Help balance xbow vrs bow with reduction in ammo but limited to 1slot weapons.

The most damaging xbows are already 2slot.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Zekerage on March 14, 2012, 12:10:35 pm
    Strength: 15
    Agility: 21

    Skills to attributes: 2

    Ironflesh: 5
    Power Strike: 5
    Athletics: 7
    Power Draw: 5
    Weapon Master: 7

    Two Handed: 120
    Archery: 130

Works fine for ME as a Hybrid, but then again, I use MW horn, bods, and langes, so I might have a little leeway
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Wraist on March 14, 2012, 05:49:22 pm
Or just go xbowmen if you're shooting to soften people up but primarily focus in melee.  Again as a hybrid being a crossbowman >>>>> being an archer.

Yeah, I realized that as soon as I was shot by an xbow. My accuracy actually improved quite a bit in the past day or two, so I'm going to guess I magically got better.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Lanic0r on March 16, 2012, 10:02:49 am
Fucking blabla fuck blabla, like english people are used to say :mrgreen:
What will change now?

Inertia for bows, aiming and turning during the draw will spread the crosshair (so no stupid run turn and shoot)?

Fucking fuck fuck....
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Niemand on March 16, 2012, 11:26:08 am
You really never played an archer before, right? you should try it, before you want to nerf archers. That is the highest rule of cRPG: Common Sense. - A rule you broke with opening this thread.

Turning OPENS your crosshair. Same as running/moving, jum... (no, that intercepts the drawing completely) and holding it for over 2-3 seconds.

So all you want to have is already implemented.


NEXT!
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Bulzur on March 16, 2012, 07:33:49 pm
I can't wait to hear your suggestion for those perma-drawn xbows.

I believe the mechanism of a crossbow is "harder" than your finger.
Yet again, i may be wrong. Please feel free to try, it's your own finger after all.
Title: Re: Archer´s draw
Post by: Rumblood on March 17, 2012, 12:41:43 am
I believe the mechanism of a crossbow is "harder" than your finger.
Yet again, i may be wrong. Please feel free to try, it's your own finger after all.

How cute. He thinks he is in the realism forums  :wink: