cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Gafferjack on March 04, 2011, 01:25:51 am

Title: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Gafferjack on March 04, 2011, 01:25:51 am
A big thanks to WaltF4 for providing the formulas for all my data points.

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Other main points:
Crossbow WPF is reduced by armor. [Changed in 0.220/0.221 from no penalty]
Equipment that you carry other than armor does not reduce WPF. [Confirmed for .223]

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Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Count_RisArch on March 04, 2011, 01:38:02 am
Fantasticly helpfull, even in this early stage. Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Bothersome_Aldryk on March 04, 2011, 03:53:33 am
I look forward to your continued testing, Gaffer :D. This is useful stuff.
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 04, 2011, 04:00:42 am
Now this is just fantastic, well done, well done.
I look forward to reviewing more of your work.
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: haxKingdom on March 04, 2011, 04:22:55 am
which is why 'molassesium forged' plate armor should cost about 1/4 as much.
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Vibe on March 04, 2011, 07:56:13 am
Brilliant
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Engine on March 04, 2011, 04:03:31 pm
I'd like to buy you a mocha frappucino, sir.
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: WaltF4 on March 04, 2011, 08:06:31 pm
Great work Gafferjack. Using your data, I have determined the functional relationship between base proficiency, weight modified proficiency, and armor weight:

armor weight modified proficiency = base proficiency * (1 - 0.0082 * effective armor weight)

and

effective armor weight = 3*head armor weight + body armor weight + leg armor weight + 2*hand armor weight - 7.7

I think we can safely assume that if the second equation would result in a negative value for effective armor weight, it would return an effective armor weight of 0 instead. The following plot was generated using your 11 data points plus a 0 effective armor weight point. This plot shows what fraction of your base proficiency your weight modified proficiency would be for a given effective armor weight.

(click to show/hide)

These equations show that the reduction in proficiency due to armor weight is now multiplicative with base proficiency and that you can wear 7.7 effective weight of armor before your proficiency is affected. The equation for effective armor weight appears to be very much like the previous version with head and hand armors effectively weighing more than the listed values.
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Kung Fu Jesus on March 04, 2011, 10:09:46 pm
I think my head may explode. I'm bleeding out my nose a little from all the math.
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: WaltF4 on March 04, 2011, 10:14:21 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Torp on March 04, 2011, 10:16:21 pm
Quote from: WaltF4 on March 04, 2011, 08:06:31 pm
Great work Gafferjack. Using your data, I have determined the functional relationship between base proficiency, weight modified proficiency, and armor weight:

armor weight modified proficiency = base proficiency * (1 - 0.0082 * effective armor weight)

and

effective armor weight = 3*head armor weight + body armor weight + leg armor weight + 2*hand armor weight - 7.7

I think we can safely assume that if the second equation would result in a negative value for effective armor weight, it would return an effective armor weight of 0 instead. The following plot was generated using your 11 data points plus a 0 effective armor weight point. This plot shows what fraction of your base proficiency your weight modified proficiency would be for a given effective armor weight.

(click to show/hide)

These equations show that the reduction in proficiency due to armor weight is now multiplicative with base proficiency and that you can wear 7.7 effective weight of armor before your proficiency is affected. The equation for effective armor weight appears to be very much like the previous version with head and hand armors effectively weighing more than the listed values.

do you how any numbers on how much weight affects running speed?
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Gafferjack on March 04, 2011, 10:34:34 pm
Updated the main post; working on getting some Archery data.

Thanks for adding that information, Walt; I was hoping someone would come along and help me out. I've added a few more data points if you felt like using them.
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Kafein on March 05, 2011, 12:34:09 am
Quote from: WaltF4 on March 04, 2011, 10:14:21 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M61xXdVlP5o

On the topic : Thank you WaltX !
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Pinx0 on March 05, 2011, 02:40:12 pm
So weigth only affects WPF? And doesn't decrease speed? It'd make more sense...
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Gafferjack on March 05, 2011, 05:55:02 pm
Quote from: Pinx0 on March 05, 2011, 02:40:12 pm
So weight only affects WPF? And doesn't decrease speed?

Only armor weight affects WPF, but you still have slower movement speed from all the weight that you carry. For example, carrying three Siege Ladders and a weapon while you have no armor on will not reduce your WPF, but you will travel much slower than without the ladders.
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Dunecat on March 05, 2011, 09:41:04 pm
Thank you.
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Torp on March 05, 2011, 09:50:05 pm
there is already a topic where it is explained
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: krampe on March 07, 2011, 05:33:12 pm
As far as i remember the calculator pre patch the loss of wpf wasn't linear, when you had a very high wpf value your armor affected it less.
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Xant on March 07, 2011, 07:12:30 pm
"I've confirmed that Two-Handed proficiency is reduced by armor using a time trial; tested 3 times for each:
Quote
58 swings in 60 seconds with 38.1 weight from armor
59 swings in 60 seconds with 0 weight from armor"

Wow that seems like an extremely small difference, considering 38.1 weight would be like black armor and stuff. Like.
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Khalim on March 07, 2011, 07:16:44 pm
I think Wpf reduction on armour is stupid. Currently I do a peasentrush(lv31) on CRPG1 and I REALLY have a better k/d ration, then playing with normal gear!
Without armour you are incredible fast and can kill several people at once. That is rediculous, considering, taht I wear armour worth of <100!

Slowing down movementspeed is okay, but reducing wpf is just stupid and unfair. It might be okay if genreal armourprices are cut to 1/2 or 1/4.
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: WaltF4 on March 08, 2011, 01:54:06 am
Quote from: Xant on March 07, 2011, 07:12:30 pm
Wow that seems like an extremely small difference, considering 38.1 weight would be like black armor and stuff. Like.

Gafferjack is seeing a 1.7% difference in time per attack between being naked and wearing close to maximum possible armor weight. He appears to have run the test with a very fast weapon and with a relatively low weapon proficiency, both of which minimize the absolute difference in time per attack one would expect to see with different armor weights. The absolute difference in time per attack would be greater for a slower weapon, and the absolute difference and relative difference in time per attack would be greater for a character with higher weapon proficiency.

In fact, his results are entirely consistent with what my equations for time per attack verses proficiency would predict for a character with 98 two handed weapon proficiency wielding a ~102 speed weapon naked compared to wearing an armet, milanese plate, cased greaves, and heavy gauntlets. Gafferjack, please let me know if I am incorrect on any of that.

The following plot had been updated with the additional data points for weapon proficiency and armor weight Gafferjack has provided.

(click to show/hide)

The stair-step patterns are likely the result of rounding. A small improvement in the data fitting can be made using these updated equations:

armor weight modified proficiency = base proficiency * (1 - 0.008 * effective armor weight)

and

effective armor weight = 3*head armor weight + body armor weight + leg armor weight + 2*hand armor weight - 7.5
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Gafferjack on March 08, 2011, 11:38:59 am
Thanks for using those points, Walt. I'll have a few more differing WPF data points and some preliminary Archery data soon.

Quote from: WaltF4 on March 08, 2011, 01:54:06 am
In fact, his results are entirely consistent with what my equations for time per attack verses proficiency would predict for a character with 98 two handed weapon proficiency wielding a ~102 speed weapon naked compared to wearing an armet, milanese plate, cased greaves, and heavy gauntlets. Gafferjack, please let me know if I am incorrect on any of that.

I had 110-114 WPF in 2H, and was using a Spiked Mace (100 speed). I can't recall the exact WPF number; I didn't record it, either.
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Byrdi on March 12, 2011, 02:16:58 pm
Reallly awesome, had no idea that there wasnt a crossbow penalty :D
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: corto on March 12, 2011, 02:25:29 pm
great work, but a question:

is the 7.7 the weight thresholt for melee&throwing, or is it same for archery? i know that the effect of armor is bigger in archery than in melee/throwing, but what is the weight i can equip that does not affect my wpf?

and could u pls tell me the effective weight bevore beeing multiplied of:

helmet with 0.25 in itemshop , 0.3 displayed ingame = ? 
and a armor with 4.5


thx in advance,
hunnicut
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Tai Feng on March 12, 2011, 02:57:32 pm
Quote from: Khalim on March 07, 2011, 07:16:44 pm
I think Wpf reduction on armour is stupid. Currently I do a peasentrush(lv31) on CRPG1 and I REALLY have a better k/d ration, then playing with normal gear!
Without armour you are incredible fast and can kill several people at once. That is rediculous, considering, taht I wear armour worth of <100!

Slowing down movementspeed is okay, but reducing wpf is just stupid and unfair. It might be okay if genreal armourprices are cut to 1/2 or 1/4.

Wpf reduction made sense before upkeep as a way to make plate have at least some disadvantage. Now with upkeep this wpf reduction is pointless and should be removed.
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: corto on March 12, 2011, 03:12:33 pm
Quote from: Tai Feng on March 12, 2011, 02:57:32 pm
with upkeep this wpf reduction is pointless and should be removed.

it's not just the upkeep that balances armor,  even more the movement speed that u have with hvy armor is so slow in comparison to a lightweight char..

if u wear full plate and want to facehug&hammer, there will be an archer/crossbowman who thanks god for such a slow moving target.

be light and get sliced or be heavy and get nailed. i call it balance.

quiz:
helmet with 0.25 in itemshop , 0.3 displayed ingame = ?
is the 7.7 the weight thresholt for melee&throwing, or is it same for archery? 

Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Paroxysm on March 13, 2011, 12:51:08 am
Very nice stuff, good to know. But can someone research the weight/movement speed reduction (not attack speed, but movement which seems highly dependent on weight)? I'd really like to know if there's a weight threshold or if it's purely linear
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Gafferjack on March 15, 2011, 12:53:11 pm
I apologize for neglecting this thread; I've suffered a recent case of burnout from cRPG, so I haven't been as productive as I would have hoped.

Quote from: corto on March 12, 2011, 02:25:29 pm
Helmet with 0.25 in itemshop , 0.3 displayed ingame = ? 
and an armor with 4.5

The helmet would be multiplied by 3 of the in-game number, so it would be effective weight 0.9; the torso slot is added to the effective weight without a multiplier. The effective weight in this case would be 5.4, so you wouldn't have your WPF reduced.

Quote from: corto on March 12, 2011, 02:25:29 pm
Is the weight threshold for melee & throwing, or is it same for archery? ...What is the weight I can equip that does not affect my WPF?

My recent tests have shown somewhere under 7.3 effective weight but above 6.7 effective weight being the limit before you start to reduce your WPF; the number is probably 7 effective weight. As for the archery question, I intend to find this out with my next batch of testing.

Quote from: Paroxysm on March 13, 2011, 12:51:08 am
...can someone research the weight/movement speed reduction (I'd really like to know if there's a weight threshold or if it's purely linear).

It's my personal belief that movespeed reduction from weight is purely linear, but I haven't actually done any testing to prove otherwise; I've only made observations based from the weight I was carrying while fighting. There's also the fact that your movespeed appears to be penalized even when you drop heavy equipment (like 3 siege shields); it's likely that Warband doesn't do speed & weight all that well.
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: corto on March 15, 2011, 05:55:31 pm
thx gafferjack :)
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Gafferjack on May 03, 2011, 10:06:30 pm
A few things.

The new patch has made Crossbow WPF become reduced while wearing armor. There was a noticeable difference in the accuracy of my crossbow when naked, compared to when I was wearing armor. I also fired off less bolts in a 60 second time trial when I was wearing armor, compared to when I was naked. Once I retire again, I can do a test build and start getting some data points.

As for Archery, I found it difficult to ascertain whether or not my accuracy decrease while wearing armor was from a WPF penalty, or from a lesser WPF penalty + a reduction in Power Draw. If anyone has some insight into this, I'd appreciate the help. Otherwise, I don't think I'll be testing Archery; archers will have to either conduct their own testing or try to eyeball it as best they can.
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: WaltF4 on May 29, 2011, 09:09:05 pm
I have calculated the weapon proficiency reduction due to armor weight for crossbows using the data provided by Gafferjack.


armor weight modified proficiency = base proficiency * (1 - 0.01 * effective armor weight)

and

effective armor weight = 3*head armor weight + body armor weight + leg armor weight + 2*hand armor weight - 7


As with the previous version, I would assume that effective armor weight values less than 0 would count as 0. The blue dots on the plot below are Gafferjack's data points and the black line shows the calculated values using the equations above.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Tears of Destiny on May 29, 2011, 09:10:50 pm
Hmm, is that just for range or is it for everything?

I thought it was 0.008 not 0.01 but that was from a second hand source to be fair.

Interesting, thank you for sharing. +1 for your great work!
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: WaltF4 on May 29, 2011, 10:10:41 pm
That source was referencing a calculation I had previously made and posted (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2722.msg47471.html#msg47471) in this very thread. I do not have the data to make the same calculations for other weapon types at this time, and another experiment I am currently running prevents me from collecting such data for the time being.
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Meloncat on June 02, 2011, 01:37:27 pm
Do you assume the 7.5 limit of armor weight is true of bows along with thrown and crossbow? I was hearing an estimate of a 5 weight limit (which seems kinda low to me, since a helmet can rapidly gain weight due to the multiplying factor), but 7.5 would give me more latitude.
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: ManOfWar on June 02, 2011, 06:35:03 pm
SO, In laymans terms, less armor points = more accuracy/speed for weapons
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Mr_Moe on June 03, 2011, 12:47:40 am
Quote from: Meloncat on June 02, 2011, 01:37:27 pm
Do you assume the 7.5 limit of armor weight is true of bows along with thrown and crossbow? I was hearing an estimate of a 5 weight limit (which seems kinda low to me, since a helmet can rapidly gain weight due to the multiplying factor), but 7.5 would give me more latitude.

As far as i heard the limit for archery was ~6. I'm pretty shure it WAS. I dunno if it's still the same limit. 
I would advise max. a Studded Leather Coat for archery. Most of the times a helmet is never needed, if anyone gets a headshot, oder hits you in the face with his weapon you will be dead anyways, a headarmor of ~15-20 wont save you.
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Gafferjack on June 03, 2011, 02:03:49 am
Quote from: Meloncat on June 02, 2011, 01:37:27 pm
Do you assume the 7.5 limit of armor weight is true of bows along with thrown and crossbow?

I'd assume that the weight limit (which after my crossbow test is now speculated at 7) is universal across the board, but I don't have any hard evidence. I might test it when I get the time; it's easy enough to test yourself, though.

Quote from: Mr_Moe on June 03, 2011, 12:47:40 am
Most of the times a helmet is never needed, if anyone gets a headshot, oder hits you in the face with his weapon you will be dead anyways, a headarmor of ~15-20 wont save you.

If you're at an odd angle of attack or they're at the end of their attack animation, 20 armor can save your life. Another thing is that you're less susceptible to low-powered hits that might contribute to your demise; peasant weapons, rocks, throwing knives, etc. I agree that most of the time it won't help you if the enemy has a powerful enough weapon, though.
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Dom.Miguel on June 08, 2011, 11:40:39 pm
well i aim for 7 effective weight (38 armour lamellar gauntlets ans studded leather coat) with archer and dont notice much difference from naked.
Title: Re: Armor & Weapon Proficiency Reduction
Post by: Warni on April 14, 2012, 06:10:20 pm
Hi all,

I was re-reading this thread and wondering if the calculation for the wpf reduction by armor is still valid in the current version. It seems that Gafferjack put a lot of work in this at the time, does anybody know for sure if this calculation is still valid:
armor weight modified proficiency = base proficiency * (1 - 0.0082 * effective armor weight)

Also, is the armor weight limit (under which there is no wpf penalty) still 7?

Thanks.