cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Ad1no on March 01, 2012, 07:06:38 am
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asap
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they should deff reload a lot slower due to the fact that it would take a lot of strength to reload an xbow on a horse. Correct me if im wrong but im pretty sure why that's y they would put it on the ground to reload it...
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Do not nerf HC!
It's proper counter to HA's and enemy cavalry...
Thing is, HCs have their downsides as opposed to HAs ALREADY, do not nerf them further!
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they should deff reload a lot slower due to the fact that it would take a lot of strength to reload an xbow on a horse. Correct me if im wrong but im pretty sure why that's y they would put it on the ground to reload it...
To me, this is a valid opinion, and would definatly be the case in real life. Sadly this is a game so... in my personal opinion, I think horse-xbowers are fine.
First of all, they are very slow to begin with. They ofcourse already suffer the same penalties that archers do while on horseback. Also know that the "strongest" crossbow available for people on horseback(in order for them to reload on them) is the light crossbow. It's definatly not a "very" powerfull crossbow to begin with. If you compare them to archers wich can use a horn bow or Yumi on horseback, and wich have a fire-rate of rougly 5 times of a Horse Xbower.
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I am thinking about taking a long break from CRPG till this shit gets nerfed or taken out.
Also half my team is running around with no weapons and trying to get kills by punching people.
6 Horse Crossbowmen on one team running the clock down to 10 seconds every round.
It is getting ridiculous. Let me know when you make crpg more fun.
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Thats what siege is for, no horse xbow there.
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Do not nerf HC!
It's proper counter to HA's and enemy cavalry...
Thing is, HCs have their downsides as opposed to HAs ALREADY, do not nerf them further!
The downsides being....?
Highly accurate weapon? Check
Pierce Damage? Check
Ability to get 5 HA and 10 Riding? Check
Low upkeep? Check
Relatively fast firing speed? Check
Bows are far less accurate than the crossbow on horseback, especially so when you can get another HA if you go 7-30 pure horse xbow. Most rounds on NA1 are delayed far longer than they need to be by horse crossbows riding around like mouth breathers. If their horse gets killed out from under them, they drop their xbow and start punching people. If they can't afford a horse (STF), they stand around spamming whistle until they get one called over to them.
It really is silly and not fun to play against or wait in spectator for 2-3 minutes for the last couple retards to just die when your team is losing 24-2.
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defend your ranged
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I was playing on the NA server this morning and was suprised about the amount of HC compared to the EU server (wich has 1 maybe 2 at most).
I was suprised becouse i played as a HC aswell a few gens ago and stopped becouse it sucked so much compared to other options you have, but thats my opinion.
I dont think HC are OP, and they are not a good counter to HA really.
I mean i can shoot 5 to 6 arrows while the is HC reloading, and their dmg is not very good.
I think what you got here is 1, there are to many HC on one server, and 2 the attitude or sportmenship of some of the HC's is questionable (delaying and such).
So i think do not hate on the class, but more some of the players behind the class.
And to the OP, if you have to complain about something, or adress a problem, dont open a post with: nerf horse xbow my old friends!1!!1 lulz bullshit.
Makes you look like whining crying 10 year old.
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I don't think this will work because if they nerf the light-x bow then the light xbow will become much useless than other x-bow. Which means other x-bow will have to nerf as well. Then because after the nerf, the HA are much stronger than x-bow horseman. So the dev will have to nerf the bows. Then because arbalest no longer can shoot through some shields so the dev buff the xbow again. Then because horses are OP so they nerf the horses. Then now all horse can get 1 hitted if you hit right in the head. Then the dev buff the horse again with 5hp or 10 hp. Now because the bump is ridiculous so horse bump will do no damage when shield is raise, then because the pole stagger from polearm is ridiculous too so they remove it. Then 2 handed users has become the most powerful class in CRPG because most of the dev play as infantry (2 handed, cheap for upkeep and it has the best lol stab. Solution: Nerf all class, happy?
Well if you don't play as x-bow please just shut it because if you really think they are OP why don't you play as that class before complaining it? All the time itÂ’s like infantry complaining about ranged and infantry complaining CAV and CAV complaining about archers. How would you feel if your class keep getting nerf? I rarely see people want to complain about their class because everyone wants advantage to their class, is that so?
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Another NA only problem, just like the bec was
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I could go on about this topic for a while but I think the short answer is this:
Slap a "cannot reload on horseback" tag onto the Light Crossbow.
Want to be a horse xbowman? Fine. Enjoy your Hunting Crossbow. That's a sizable step down in damage from the Light Crossbow and I suspect a lot of existing horse xbowmen would reconsider their decisions if they had to use it. This would have no impact on foot xbowmen, which I don't think are a problem.
Horse archers I don't think are quite as bad of a problem for various reasons, probably the greatest of which is it requires a lot more points be invested in order to be remotely viable.
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Another NA only problem, just like the bec was
Out of the 10 rounds I played on the CHN server when the NA ones went down, I think 8 of them ended with 1 horse crossbow rolling around, shooting pikemen haha
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Another NA only problem, just like the bec was
Kind of like the Arabian being an EU problem? Nobody rode it on NA and now it's 7 riding. That drastic of a change seems to me to be a result of a few players doing really well with it on EU.
The prevelence of HC on NA is mostly due to ROHYPNOL riding around with x3 everything and doing well with it. Before he went xbow, there was amatsuka and release arrows and neither are particularily good at it. Everyone is trying to emulate ROH but lack the heirlooms and the understanding of how projectiles are released while moving to do it as well. However in contrast to that, now that there are 6+ of them on a team, their lack of skill is overcome by sheer numbers.
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Want to be a horse xbowman? Fine. Enjoy your Hunting Crossbow.
People who has +3 Light xbow will rage
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Last I remember was an amazing amount of whine about too much ranged stuff being around, the two gens I played an archer I mostly focused on taking down horse archers/xbows.
So...Tell your Archers/XBow/Throwing people to take down the HX?
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My build allows me to be a horse crossbowman. I loomed my light crossbow purely for its ability to be used from horseback. I've not played HA recently, but from my experiences on EU1, HAs do better as individual players.
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HC are fine. They are slow at reloading, don't do a huge amount of damage (light crossbow :rolleyes: ). They can be annoying sometimes but an HA has all the advantages.
This is an EU perspective though. There's rarely more than 1 HC on at a time on EU.
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People who has +3 Light xbow will rage
Just like the people who had Coursers or Arabians with 4 riding builds raged when they got changed, or when my beautiful 16-24 great maul build got nerfed etc. etc.
Changing requirements on things isn't uncommon but making light xbow unusable on horseback isn't the way to go. Upping it's strength requirement while mounted to reload or increasing reload time type of thing because light xbow on foot isn't a problem.
Also, lol @ saying they'd nerf HA because HC got nerfed. Horse Archers are fairly uncommon on NA, not sure about EU and I shrug off everything but headshots from HA's anyways in my heavier armour.
As for taking down the HC, they're all high 8-10 riding dedicated HC. They're harder to hit than normal cav because their mounts maneuver and accelerate better than your standard cavalry player. Takes a little more luck with the RNG on accuracy. I made one just for fun, 10 riding and stole a champ courser. Bloody ridiculous on that thing.
With speed bonus, they do pretty significant damage (considering it's only a light xbow) and then they just run off and reload and then come back. None of the danger of using a crossbow on foot because their reload is done while moving.
I'd say it's on the strong side of the spectrum and could use a little tweak, nothing drastic though.
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Last I remember was an amazing amount of whine about too much ranged stuff being around, the two gens I played an archer I mostly focused on taking down horse archers/xbows.
So...Tell your Archers/XBow/Throwing people to take down the HX?
That is the idea, but the HX players simply avoid the main crowds and pick at the edges. If they see any ranged they run to another part of the field. By the time the battle is down to 4v4, it'll be 4 infantry on one side (all the ranged footsoldiers are dead by the end) and 4 mounted bowmen on the other side. The result is a virtual stalemate as neither side can kill the other.
It's more like the old "archers with ladders" problem -- it's not that it's OP, it's just it just pisses everyone off because these people are A) ineffective and B) virtually impossible to kill if they don't want to be killed. It's 3 minutes of 100 dead people watching Rohypnol and Release Arrows miss 80% of their shots.
As a hybrid thrower, I can typically deal with cavalry. Whenever HX players see me with throwing axes, they typically just stand off by about 50 meters and ineffectively lob shots at me. I can't hit them, they can't hit me, the clock keeps ticking.
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"With speed bonus, they do pretty significant damage (considering it's only a light xbow) and then they just run off and reload and then come back"
If I am not mistaken, speed bonus works only if your target moves towards you, your speed does not effect dmg output with ranged.
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What we need are better admins, like Thomek used to be.
If you are 2 vs 20 get back into fight ASAP or get kicked. There are HAs who don't waste people's time (Remy and Elmer) but there are way more jerks who ride and shoot till time runs out.
Also if one team has less than 10% players alive flags should appear.
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Elmer usually goes with a sword in the end. I don't know about Remy though.
Also, according to cmp, it's not breaking the rules. If you shoot as a HA as the last one vs. 20 it's allowed, but it's still dumb.
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"With speed bonus, they do pretty significant damage (considering it's only a light xbow) and then they just run off and reload and then come back"
If I am not mistaken, speed bonus works only if your target moves towards you, your speed does not effect dmg output with ranged.
You are correct as far as I know on foot, maybe it's different on horseback?
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HC are just a nuisance most of the time.
Sure there are times where a bunch of them stacked onto one team while the other has none/very few can be a big problem, but that's the same if a team is full of HA, or Cav, or ranged, or even pikemen tbh.
I think it's more of an issue with the balance system not taking player builds into account, not Horse crossbowmen specifically.
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As a cav lancer I'll be the first to say I can't stand horse xbows. They are very effective at killing my horse. They certainly serve a purpose and can really reek havoc on the enemy cavalry. That being said, they are more of a support class, when it comes time to cleaning up the last few infantry they are basically useless.
In my mind how do you balance the fact that horse xbow are serving a purpose and helping their team win (so long as they have other people on their team still alive), with the fact that they are useless once their own infantry dies? Once they are the last ones alive it's basically like stalling the inevitable.
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Maybe add a rule that if they are last they have to dismount? Like the way archers had to jump off roof pre-ladder removal.
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Maybe add a rule that if they are last they have to dismount? Like the way archers had to jump off roof pre-ladder removal.
That's different, you can kill a horse, you can't kill a house. Making them dismount isn't at all fair since the guys on foot are probably classed to be on foot while horsemen are... well, classed to be on a horse.
They just have to have some courtesy and think "1 vs 10", no point in running, and really put all their effort into killing the ones that they can before more than likely, inevitably dying slightly less heroically than they would have liked, to the first guy they attack.
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The only thing that bothers me about it is I've seen one infantry left alive before getting yelled at for delaying when he runs away, basically thinning out the followers or going to a choke point, but for some odd reason it's acceptable for range.
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People are only doing Horse Crossbow as a gimmick because ROHYPNOL has been wrecking people as one for a couple weeks (but he is amazing at all cavalry so you can't say it's OP just because he does well with it). The only problem is that there are 5-10 Horse Crossbow on each team which isn't that fun as melee but the gimmick will pass soon.
So either take a break and play on siege for a week or do what I did and respec to HC and have fun delaying every round and making people rage.
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Maybe add a rule that if they are last they have to dismount? Like the way archers had to jump off roof pre-ladder removal.
No.
Add some kind of new way for the flag to appear. If the flag appears when there are (like Leshma said) 10% of one of teams left - it will be completely fair and "get-off forcing".
That fixes CHANCES for DELAYING by HC or HAs, but, compared to whatever else you can think of, won't nerf any of those.
And it shouldn't nerf them.
Because apart of ability to delay if in such a mood, HC are completely OK and balanced.
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People are only doing Horse Crossbow as a gimmick because ROHYPNOL has been wrecking people as one for a couple weeks (but he is amazing at all cavalry so you can't say it's OP just because he does well with it). The only problem is that there are 5-10 Horse Crossbow on each team which isn't that fun as melee but the gimmick will pass soon.
So either take a break and play on siege for a week or do what I did and respec to HC and have fun delaying every round and making people rage.
I have mad respect for ROH, but he never really wins the round, it ends up being him vs 5-10 poor sweaty infantry until he runs out of bolts. I really wish there was some kind of last player gimmick in crpg, like if you dont get a kill in 30 seconds you start beeping and explode. It works great in other games.
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It works great in other games.
Pics or it didn't happen.
Also, consider this:
Warband is different game.
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Its been a thing for a long time. Rohypnol's success definitely revived its popularity as a "troll build", and I wouldn't say its OP at all. The one problem it faces is that you only need 7 str, and can amass 10 riding skill, paired with an arabian warhorse or a courser is frustrating to deal with for most people.
I don't think it needs to be changed. They can start shooting from a rouncey at level 9 for full piercing damage, while a regular horse archer can't really accomplish much of any damage until his 20's. We have to understand though, that they're crippled by the slow reload, and pretty much any... ability... to do anything else. Horse archers are forced into balanced builds - If xbow were forced into a more balanced build, people might complain less, but please god don't ever make the light crossbow require 12-15 STR.
Like Meow said earlier, pick em off, they have 42 hp at level 30, and usually light armor. Not only do they get the velocity dmg bonus, but you do too when they're coming in your direction.
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The only slight problem is the bump damage you get from courser with 10 riding.
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Sure, good idea. Nerf riding now.
I also suggest some more balance-wise changes, like removing agility, athletics, blocking, moving... That kind of things.
Let us finally right swing 1 hit people without having that boring need to move... or block... Really. Stupid things need to be removed or nerfed.
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Also half my team is running around with no weapons and trying to get kills by punching people.
As an Admin, you can fix this exact problem rather easily.
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As an Admin, you can fix this exact problem rather easily.
When every fucking facepalm on the internet is not enough...
... use standard one, because every facepalm is always same facepalm.
<facepalm>
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No need to nerf. It's a pretty shitty class to play in terms of effectiveness. The only problem is It's Annoying.
How do we solve this? Just wait a couple mins for the round to end for flags to pop. That's it. Just wait a couple mins.
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When every fucking facepalm on the internet is not enough...
... use standard one, because every facepalm is always same facepalm.
<facepalm>
Kicking and warning fisters usually works, always does for me. I quoted a specific part of his post, not the whole thing. What exactly is your problem?
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No need to nerf. It's a pretty shitty class to play in terms of effectiveness. The only problem is It's Annoying.
How do we solve this? Just wait a couple mins for the round to end for flags to pop. That's it. Just wait a couple mins.
Unless they keep killing 1 person every 30 seconds then MotF won't spawn...the bigger issue is that flags need to spawn every single round when it gets to a certain time.
Also tears, they made pugilists/boxers into a "valid" melee class...I think it's retarded...but that's a pretty typical response when there's a decision made in crpg.
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Also tears, they made pugilists/boxers into a "valid" melee class...I think it's retarded...but that's a pretty typical response when there's a decision made in crpg.
My thread petition to pass that worked? :lol:
Ah, beautiful.
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Sure, good idea. Nerf riding now.
Riding speed and maneuver are fine, horse bump was never fine. It used to be only way for certain individuals to gain kills and feel good about themselves, then chadz fixed that. It was really balanced during that period (almost non existent bump damage even from champion elephant) then chadz decided to buff bump damage. Big mistake!
It's pain in the ass to play in light gear with current bump damage values. Even if you have a lot of body armor, heavy horse in full speed can chop of nearly 30% of your HP in one go. Makes perfect sense from realism standpoint, but its retarded balance wise.
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It's pain in the ass to play in light gear with current bump damage values. Even if you have a lot of body armor, heavy horse in full speed can chop of nearly 30% of your HP in one go. Makes perfect sense from realism standpoint, but its retarded balance wise.
Wear modern clothes, go find a horse, see if a horse charge at you at "Full" speed see if you will be disabled afterward IRL
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My thread petition to pass that worked? :lol:
Ah, beautiful.
I'm assuming it must have since they made some heavier gloves do more damage, and I've seen people running around with said gloves and no other weapons and not get kicked from servers.
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6 Horse Crossbowmen on one team running the clock down to 10 seconds every round.
Yet the other team still can't adapt after that happening every round. Smart players would've changed tactics by then to prevent that. What are the lancers, archers,crossbowmen and throwers doing? Going after infantry for easy kills is my bet. And that's why they lose.
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Yet the other team still can't adapt after that happening every round. Smart players would've changed tactics by then to prevent that.
This.
Archers and xbowmen can probably focus them down easily if they would choose to adapt.
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Strength crutchers and 2H spammers get countered, meanwhile shielders, agi characters, pikemen, and good archers have no problem dealing with horse crossbowmen. The only people really complaining about horse xbow are the ones who try and chase them down on foot and end up dying. One good archer or xbowman can counter 2-3 HC's by just being there. I know I've been in plenty of situations where I've forced a couple HC's to circle around the entire group and stay at a good distance while my team fights.
Anyways here are some tips to dealing with HC's without having to sacrifice strategy:
-Shoot the horse; HC's are always going to be incredibly fast riders (Release_Arrows the exception...) and they are difficult targets at full speed. Once you down their horses, HC's are pretty much already dead.
-Don't chase; There is no reason to chase a HC unless you are horseback and certain that your horse is faster, you will not catch them
-Direct your archers to focus down HC's; often times in battle I see archers completely ignoring them, you always want HC's to be under some kind of fire, there is nothing they love more than inattentive archers
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Archers and xbows on foot rarely focus on horse crossbow or horse archers. And generally when the horse xbow is the last one alive your team's archers and xbow are dead. So you can try to get your team to hide until flags spawn, or if you have an idiot or two in the bunch dying, just hope that they are dying far enough apart where motf spawns.
Really this whole thing would be a non-issue if MotF just spawned every time the round was down to 1:30 left (or some other number).
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Strength crutchers and 2H spammers get countered, meanwhile shielders, agi characters, pikemen, and good archers have no problem dealing with horse crossbowmen.
Sure about that bolded part?
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Wear modern clothes, go find a horse, see if a horse charge at you at "Full" speed see if you will be disabled afterward IRL
Congratz on winning the "retarded post of the year" AND "I no read what i quote" awards. "Makes perfect sense from realism standpoint, but its retarded balance wise."
Also, I've seen a guy with a destrier and a shield (no armor, no weapon (no kick poll :(. ) with a balanced K/D, due to magic eternal shield hitbox I was bumbed down about 90% of my health each round by this guy, those 90% were also from three fucking bumps. I wore a heavy kuyak,no IF, 21STR, is that fucking balance to you?
Please note I'm a cav, a jarrid throwing cav, whenever I'm not cav I'm going with my throwing-melee fighting style on EU_3...
...holy fuck, I can't believe I'm agreeing with Leshma and even defending her/him...
...my brain must be fucked up...
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Sure about that bolded part?
Should have clarified.
Most good pikemen/shielders/agis will have no problem. Peasant tactics will not always prevail. :mrgreen:
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Also, I've seen a guy with a destrier and a shield (no armor, no weapon (no kick poll :(. ) with a balanced K/D, due to magic eternal shield hitbox I was bumbed down about 90% of my health each round by this guy, those 90% were also from three fucking bumps. I wore a heavy kuyak,no IF, 21STR, is that fucking balance to you?
I do not believe on what you are saying, make a video on that before saying any more crap on this matters bullshitter
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Should have clarified.
Most good pikemen/shielders/agis will have no problem. Peasant tactics will not always prevail. :mrgreen:
HC will stay out of reach when facing pikemen and agility builds, shooting them with no chance for them to retaliate. Only cover may help them. Shielder, well, since bumping deals tons of damage it favours HC there too. Ride with crossbow ready at full speed, shoot + bump if he take his shield down to attack, only bump if he doesn't. Rinse and repeat.
Only other ranged can take out a good HC, but I don't mind that.
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Kicking and warning fisters usually works, always does for me. I quoted a specific part of his post, not the whole thing. What exactly is your problem?
Yeah supposedly this is a valid class now and I got a lot of grief from everyone on the server when I kicked the people that were spawning naked with only gloves on.
Wear modern clothes, go find a horse, see if a horse charge at you at "Full" speed see if you will be disabled afterward IRL
In this respect... If the said horse was going full speed and the horse died from range and tumbled down AT FULL SPEED. Wouldn't the rider take a lot of damage as well?
For some reason this is not coded in the game. It should though.
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I do not believe on what you are saying, make a video on that before saying any more crap on this matters bullshitter
Fuck you, make a video of a horse charging you down IRL at full speed before saying any more crap on this matter, you bullshitter.
Fact is, either I was wearing my kuyak on my main OR I was on my alt NCB with tincan armor all the way but only with 16STR and 5IF...
What'd you rather have as the truth? (BTW: I think I was on NCB due to eventually breaking his shield which would never happen without a morningstar...)
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Fuck you, make a video of a horse charging you down IRL at full speed before saying any more crap on this matter, you bullshitter.
You were copying what i said copy cat
Fact is, either I was wearing my kuyak on my main OR I was on my alt NCB with tincan armor all the way but only with 16STR and 5IF...
What'd you rather have as the truth? (BTW: I think I was on NCB due to eventually breaking his shield which would never happen without a morningstar...)
there is no way if you wear a heavy kuyak a horse bump will make you lose 90% of hp. thats just bullshit. Want to see real people getting bump IRL? Search it in google you will see, in documen...reality...... you might as well getting bump by a 13 riding player.
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You were copying what i said copy cat
there is no way if you wear a heavy kuyak a horse bump will make you lose 90% of hp. thats just bullshit. Want to see real people getting bump IRL? Search it in google you will see, in documen...reality...... you might as well getting bump by a 13 riding player.
I said it took THREE bumps from a destrier, sure the guy went far away in order to charge back at full speed, but still, this shit is too retarded with the invinci-shields.
Also, I didn't want to see PEOPLE getting bumped IRL, I wanted to see YOU and your retarded "video or it didn't happen" argument getting bumped IRL.
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Nerfing the item will still only remove half the horse crossbows. The rest are simply trolling. No point for a single horse crossbow to run around shooting for 2 minutes when he is alone versus 21 people.
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Kicking and warning fisters usually works, always does for me. I quoted a specific part of his post, not the whole thing. What exactly is your problem?
Umm, sorry. Forgot it's still only internet.
I meant, that guy complaining about rule-breakers while being admin was a fail - fail big enough to require facepalm.
I've got nothing to you, Tears.
Did I already say I love your avatar?
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unrequired nerf. ignore this post.
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Nerfing the item will still only remove half the horse crossbows. The rest are simply trolling. No point for a single horse crossbow to run around shooting for 2 minutes when he is alone versus 21 people.
This.
Xbow cav aren't OP, the problem is they're the ultimate troll class. Xbow cav that actually want kills have to do it like Rohypnol does, and get right up in people's faces. Most of them, however, like to try and mail bolts from halfway across the map, which of course never hit or damage anything, but it's unfortunately not against the rules. Frankly I think playing like that should be viewed the same was as a melee trying to hit someone from twenty meters away, and be at the very least worthy of a kick or short ban if done repeatedly.
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horse xbowers aren't op. HXbow is just a crappy version of HAs. However, I do agree that ranged cavalry is fucking gay and should be removed, and then I mean all types, no reason to single out the HXbows.
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horse xbowers aren't op. HXbow is just a crappy version of HAs. However, I do agree that ranged cavalry is fucking gay and should be removed, and then I mean all types, no reason to single out the HXbows.
You're crap. Remove yourself.
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You're crap. Remove yourself.
+1
horse xbowers aren't op. HXbow is just a crappy version of HAs. However, I do agree that ranged cavalry is fucking gay and should be removed, and then I mean all types, no reason to single out the HXbows.
you are gay, go play single player (No ranged in there after some small modified)
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i'm playing and horse xbow now aswell
im having a blast, melee is unplayable will all the range now... the only counter to range is to go range yourself ;)
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GrannPappy kills HX. Save GrannPappy and save the world!
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Nerf HX so I can go back to being a unique beautiful snowflake.