cRPG
cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Formless on March 02, 2011, 07:45:24 pm
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Is there is a reduction in speed and damage when you use the Bastard Sword or the Heavy Bastard Sword in 1 hand with a shield? While I am pretty sure there is, I was wondering if anyone knows excatly how much?
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IIRC speed reduction is close to 30% and I am not sure if there is damage reduction.
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35% reduction to speed and damage when you use a two-hander in one hand. This includes horseback weaponry. Additionally, whenever you use a shield with a 1H/2H weapon, it uses 1H WPF instead of 2H WPF. 1H/2H weapons used without a shield on horseback use 2H WPF (unless you can switch the mode, like some one-handed bastard weapons; then it simply uses whatever mode you select).
Edit: However, if you use Vargas' web tool, it gives different numbers of reduction depending on the type of weapon, shield used, mounted, etc; the percentage I provided might not be 100% correct.
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35% reduction to speed and damage when you use a two-hander in one hand. This includes horseback weaponry. Additionally, whenever you use a shield with a 1H/2H weapon, it uses 1H WPF instead of 2H WPF. 1H/2H weapons used without a shield on horseback use 2H WPF (unless you can switch the mode, like some one-handed bastard weapons; then it simply uses whatever mode you select).
So the bastard sword would be reduced by 35% in damage and speed even when it uses 1 hand wpf, is that right?
That would mean:
35 cut *.35= 12.25
35-12.25= 22.75 cut damage
101 speed *.35= 35.35
101-35.5= 65.5 speed
So if the above is correct that makes this weapon totally useless for me to use as a 1 hand + shield.
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So the bastard sword would be reduced by 35% in damage and speed even when it uses 1 hand wpf, is that right?
Yes, but see my edit above. As for the speed reduction, it's likely applied as a multiplier to the formula and not to the weapon speed itself.
Usually you use a shield with a 1H/2H weapon to get close to ranged troops or to defend against multiple opponents before shouldering it and fighting with the 2H alone.
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Yes, but see my edit above. As for the speed reduction, it's likely applied as a multiplier to the formula and not to the weapon speed itself.
Usually you use a shield with a 1H/2H weapon to get close to ranged troops or to defend against multiple opponents before shouldering it and fighting with the 2H alone.
Thanks for the reply Gafferjack, that was very helpful.
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Haven't used it in cRPG, but in Native, the heavy bastard in particular was suprisingly effective in one-handed mode. It has a reach advantage over most one-handers, and people seemed to find the different timing hard to adjust to. Not sure how that would translate over to cRPG, but it might be worth a try.
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Is there is a reduction in speed and damage when you use the Bastard Sword or the Heavy Bastard Sword in 1 hand with a shield? While I am pretty sure there is, I was wondering if anyone knows excatly how much?
My first heirloom mw katana(so 11 gens of use)= is *nearly* ineffective in my experience in onehand mode vs using comparable onehand "class" weapons, but advancing into enemy fire with the weapon/shield you want to hit them=worth it
In "halfsword"(x)mode you can sword and shield using your pole wpf with "bastard" swords .
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I've always found it rather silly that there was such a steep penalty vs bastard weapons when used 1h'd with a shield. After all, that was the entire reason they existed. Otherwise you'd just have a 2her and/or a seperate 1her.
I think the bastard weapons should be replaced with new weapons (using the same models) that are done like the langes messer for mechanics: IE - using the swap weapon mode button to switch it between 1h and 2h, with different stats for each mode.
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Actually...that's a really good idea...
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The 1H/2H bastard weapons appear to have the same speed reduction with a shield as the 1H/2H polearms. As I posted in the penalty with shield thread (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2624.msg46112.html#msg46112), the difference in time per attack depends on the weapon speed. The percent increase in time per attack for a bastard weapon used with a shield compared to used two handed is:
Speed 102 katana: 18%
Speed 98 longsword: 20%
Speed 95 goedendag: 21%
Speed 92 morning star: 22%
This makes the katana used with a shield as fast as a 85 speed one handed weapon. The slowest standard one handed weapon is 94 speed.
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The 1H/2H bastard weapons appear to have the same speed reduction with a shield as the 1H/2H polearms. As I posted in the penalty with shield thread (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2624.msg46112.html#msg46112), the difference in time per attack depends on the weapon speed. The percent increase in time per attack for a bastard weapon used with a shield compared to used two handed is:
Speed 102 katana: 18%
Speed 98 longsword: 20%
Speed 95 goedendag: 21%
Speed 92 morning star: 22%
This makes the katana used with a shield as fast as a 85 speed one handed weapon. The slowest standard one handed weapon is 94 speed.
Exactly. This, imo, is a stupid mechanic for swords which were designed to be used 1h or 2h (maybe not the katana). Much better to treat them like the Langes Messer, make it a toggled setting, and give them different stats per style used in order to maintain balance.
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I've always found it rather silly that there was such a steep penalty vs bastard weapons when used 1h'd with a shield. After all, that was the entire reason they existed. Otherwise you'd just have a 2her and/or a seperate 1her.
I think the bastard weapons should be replaced with new weapons (using the same models) that are done like the langes messer for mechanics: IE - using the swap weapon mode button to switch it between 1h and 2h, with different stats for each mode.
+1
Its sort of silly having a penalty on a sword that is supposed to be usable either 1 hand or 2 hand. The weapon swap button is a great idea.
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+1
Its sort of silly having a penalty on a sword that is supposed to be usable either 1 hand or 2 hand. The weapon swap button is a great idea.
I wholeheartedly agree.
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I've always found it rather silly that there was such a steep penalty vs bastard weapons when used 1h'd with a shield. After all, that was the entire reason they existed. Otherwise you'd just have a 2her and/or a seperate 1her.
I think the bastard weapons should be replaced with new weapons (using the same models) that are done like the langes messer for mechanics: IE - using the swap weapon mode button to switch it between 1h and 2h, with different stats for each mode.
Probably. Of course a penalty should exist (although the reasons why they existed are not so simplistic), to prevent them from being "the" weapon, but I see no problem if it had, say, 88-90 speed in 1h mode and the damage of a normal high-cutting onehander (eg. 32c or something) with a inferior stab. So they would still be a "hybrid's choice", but not something a dedicated 1h would choose.
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Probably. Of course a penalty should exist (although the reasons why they existed are not so simplistic), to prevent them from being "the" weapon, but I see no problem if it had, say, 88-90 speed in 1h mode and the damage of a normal high-cutting onehander (eg. 32c or something) with a inferior stab. So they would still be a "hybrid's choice", but not something a dedicated 1h would choose.
88-90 is about what they're at now, ish. The slowest 1her currently is 94 which would be a fine place to leave the bastard weapons. It's a pretty significant drop from 98 2her speed which is more like 103 1her speed equivalent.
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88-90 is about what they're at now, ish.
You sure? A 30% penalty would leave them somewhere at the 70 speed rating mark... and they feel like they're around there when I handle one. 15% would leave it at 84-ish. So it'd still be a boost.
Edit: It's probably 15% to damage and speed as it is, after playing with it for a bit on duel. So that'd put it at 83 speed rating and 30.6 cut. Which is a bit slow with my 21/15 1h/polearm build with 124 1h wpf... but could be used. 88 speed rating and 32 cut in 1h mode would however make it a reasonable weapon, and if they did it that way rather then just the penalty like now, the heirloom bonuses with it used in 1h mode wouldn't be wasted so much.
However, I'm not sure if it can have two alternate modes, it already has one (which is not very impressive, halfswording with it is slower then using it as a twohander, and I have 96 polearm wpf and 1 2h wpf, and weaker. If anything it seems stronger when used as a onehander then when halfsworded, no overhead, the swings are so weak and it's so damn slow to boot.
If I didn't have a masterwork SCS already I'd be tempted to heirloom it and make a hybrid geared for the longsword, but heirlooming yet another weapon... blah.
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You sure? A 30% penalty would leave them somewhere at the 70 speed rating mark... and they feel like they're around there when I handle one.
WaltF4 did the math, so I might be misquoting. It might be that the katana acts around 88 ish and the other ones are slower. I'll go look for the thread.
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See above for massive ninja edits