cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Olwen on March 02, 2011, 01:43:14 pm
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Xbow, xbow, fashion xbow
everyone is using you
Xbow, xbow, fashion xbow
everyone can snipe with you
Xbow, xbow, fashion xbow
everyone 1shot with you
buff dedicated xbowers, nerf random xbowers
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you don't say
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Yes please. Made the accuracy curve of wpf steeper, increase the price, something ^^
EDIT: I don't there is any need to buff dedicated crossbowmen. Feels ok to me, I can complain only about the accuracy really, but that's just me nit-picking.
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increase the price
No, just no! Dedicated xbowers have it tough enough already. Increasing the price would be the last nail in the coffin.
Made the accuracy curve of wpf steeper
Sounds a lot better.
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power draw is only solution, it would help dedicate ppl, and would separate those who have it just in case
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What exactly is wrong with this? Crossbows are very expensive and someone who isn't dedicated crossbowman will shoot how often per round, 1-2 times?
You can kill plenty people with melee weapon even with zero proficiency, so what does that mean, that melee weapons should be useless unless you have 150 proficiency?
I very rarely see non dedicated crossbowmen, and don't see why this is a problem.
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You can kill plenty people with melee weapon even with zero proficiency, so what does that mean, that melee weapons should be useless unless you have 150 proficiency?
Except melee weapons need an investment in Power Strike.
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I once killed 2 light armored guys with 0 wpf and 0 power strike falchion.
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Except melee weapons need an investment in Power Strike.
Melee weapons without PS and proficiency are about as useful as xbow without proficiency. You can still kill with them.
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A melee weapon that had the same damage as a Sniper Crossbow, but also the same speed, would be pretty entertaining.
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1 WPF xbow hasn't been nerfed at all, the only reason everybody doesn't use a xbow sidearm like pre-patch is the upkeep.
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Wait upkeep did its job? So is it safe to unnerf this poor weapon. I feel like the siege xbow should be the only 1 shotting ranged weapon as it reloads so balls ass slow atleast compared to jarids and lances once your opponent fires you know you getting your shot at him where as the thrower is just gunna chuck any number between 1-12 lances at you -.-
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No, just no! Dedicated xbowers have it tough enough already. Increasing the price would be the last nail in the coffin.
I am dedicated xbower, I could live with 2-4k increase in cost. If it would make me lose money, I'd just switch to cheaper melee weapon.
Melee weapons without PS and proficiency are about as useful as xbow without proficiency. You can still kill with them.
That's a bullshit and you know it.
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your opponent fires you know you getting your shot at him where as the thrower is just gunna chuck any number between 1-12 lances at you -.-
Yea sure, most of the time you won't even see him before you are dead or he will be reloading safely behind a wall while his team mate fight, that's why i much prefer thrower spam at least he's standing a few meter away from you and he's out there fighting with his team.
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That's a bullshit and you know it.
I doubt that someone with Great Long Bardiche couldn't make more kills in such situation than someone with siege crossbow. Siege crossbow as a sidearm is technically one-shot weapon. If you shoot more times with it per round, you're not able to participate in infantry charge and coordinate with your fellow teammates.
The point is that with current upkeep and throwing as good as it is, there is little reason to have 20,000-worth xbow as a one-use weapon. 4 skill points is nothing, and with that you can have like 8 axes you can throw around, and they will aid your infantry build much more than one-shot xbow. These xbows made sense when there was no upkeep, when they deal more damage, and everyone was running in plate.
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Throwing was and is a better sidearm. Period. The high-end crossbows take a while to reload, aim and use, meaning you can't really follow infantry around as well as you could if you had a bow or throwing spammables, and cost a lot on top - for the price of a sniper you could be carrying two packs of jarids or something.
The reason to use a crossbow? Well, everyone else is shooting or throwing something, so you might as well join in the shooter yourself. Half the maps involve roof bundle of sticksry. What do you expect?
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I doubt that someone with Great Long Bardiche couldn't make more kills in such situation than someone with siege crossbow. Siege crossbow as a sidearm is technically one-shot weapon. If you shoot more times with it per round, you're not able to participate in infantry charge and coordinate with your fellow teammates.
The point is that with current upkeep and throwing as good as it is, there is little reason to have 20,000-worth xbow as a one-use weapon. 4 skill points is nothing, and with that you can have like 8 axes you can throw around, and they will aid your infantry build much more than one-shot xbow. These xbows made sense when there was no upkeep, when they deal more damage, and everyone was running in plate.
I would post something... but Tai Feng just steamrolled the proponents of the nerf.
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Melee weapons without PS and proficiency are about as useful as xbow without proficiency. You can still kill with them.
That's a bullshit and you know it.
I have already done what Tai Feng is claiming. It does work like that.
I leveled up a test character just to study the reticule size and the rate of fire for the different crossbows. Since I wanted to get as much proficiency as quickly as possible, I converted every skill point that could not be put into weapon master into attribute points. I also did not spend the WPF until I reached level 21 so that the tests would be controlled for character agility. So, I fought siege battles for 21 levels with absolutely no useful skills and was getting as many kills with 0 PS and 0 proficiency polearms as I did with 0 proficiency crossbows.
It was miserable. They are both awful, but arguing about them is pretty meaningless because it is trivial to get 50 proficiency in a weapon type.
buff dedicated xbowers, nerf random xbowers
This does not seem possible until they nerf hybrid builds in general. Maybe, at some point in the future, you will not be able to pick up a secondary weapon type by giving up a couple proficiency from your main weapon type. For example, my high agility pikeman build could get 50 crossbow proficiency by dropping from 180 polearm proficiency to 177 polearm proficiency. 0 to 50 crossbow proficiency reduces the area of a crossbow reticule by about 50%. 180 to 177 polearm proficiency increases your the time per attack by less than 3 milliseconds. Balanced builds only drop 5 to 10 proficiency from their main weapon type for 50 crossbow proficiency. High strength builds would probably be better off throwing stuff with 0 throwing proficiency.
Well, everyone else is shooting or throwing something, so you might as well join in the shooter yourself. Half the maps involve roof bundle of sticksry. What do you expect?
Exactly. The players will do what works. You can not fault them for it.
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I am dedicated xbower, I could live with 2-4k increase in cost. If it would make me lose money, I'd just switch to cheaper melee weapon.
I'm a dedicated xbower and I would hate it. I have the short hafted blade as melee weapon and leather as armor. Not too much, but I still make next to nothing because that monster breaks for 873 denars every other round.
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everyone can snipe with you
Bullshit. Unless they're investing a significant amount into x-bow WPF then they're not sniping anyone. I have 130 x-bow wpf and I know the reticule and accuracy differences well, and they are drastic. Getting shot when you're standing still at medium range is not getting sniped.
everyone 1shot with you
Again, bullshit. Unless you're running around naked as an agi build. I run with heavy x-bow the majority of the time, but I bust out the sniper x-bow for siege defenses. Again, with hefty investment into x-bow wpf @ 130. Unless you get shot in the head, or you're doing the aforementioned nude agi shit, you're not getting 1-shot by any of the x-bows. It will not happen.
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With 18 str, 0 IF and 40 body armor I get 1shoted by sniper xbow.
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I have exceptional sniper xbow, 160 wpf and steel bolts and I'm by no means one-shooting everyone. People are even surviving headshots!
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I have exceptional sniper xbow, 160 wpf and steel bolts and I'm by no means one-shooting everyone. People are even surviving headshots!
Now this is BS. I have MW sniper xbow, so I know all the hierloom levels of sniper xbows, and every single one of them is headshot=kill, no matter what helmet they are using. I've killed tincans with it no problem. Also, you can one shot people, but usually only point blank and only light armored guys.
As for the 0 ps 1 wpf, I guess, I never really tested it with enough str, but I know with 0-3 PS I was whiffing a LOT. Didn't know str has that big of an influence.
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Now this is BS. I have MW sniper xbow, so I know all the hierloom levels of sniper xbows, and every single one of them is headshot=kill, no matter what helmet they are using.
Sorry, but you're wrong. I've seen it enough times already :)
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Sorry, but you're wrong. I've seen it enough times already :)
No, you're wrong. This has been tested on the duel server thoroughly. With a headshot the regular xbow, heavy xbow and sniper xbow will all 1-shot a 27 str, 9 IF player wearing a 50 armor helmet. Masterworks are guaranteed.
1-shot body hits don't happen unless you're low str and nekkid.
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1-shot body hits don't happen unless you're low str and nekkid.
With 18 str, 0 IF and 40 body armor I get 1shoted by sniper xbow at close-medium range.
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With 18 str, 0 IF and 40 body armor I get 1shoted by sniper xbow at close-medium range.
Were you running towards the xbower?
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Yes, I was trying to kill them :) . Didn't think at this, I have 7 Ath so speed bonus might increase the damage just enough for a 1shot kill to the body.
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Love how everyone is unaware of the fact that damage and armor values are randomised to a certain degree when a hit is calculated. A single test is pretty worthless. Repeat it at least 10 times from the same distance.
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Love how everyone is unaware of the fact that damage and armor values are randomised to a certain degree when a hit is calculated. A single test is pretty worthless. Repeat it at least 10 times from the same distance.
Wasn't it psaudo-random number between 50% and 100% of armor value ?
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i like the idea of buffing dedicated xbowers and nerfing xbow as a sidearm, but it should only be done if throwing as a sidearm is nerfed too, otherwise everyone would just throw.
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did some testing, about 15-20 kills
95p crossbow vs 30 str 10 IF 60 armor helmet
the closer bodies on the pic are the only ones that died from 1 shot to the head, further targets had cca. 1-15% hp left after the hit
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That sucks if you still were able to 1 shot him with all that HP and armor.
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That sucks if you still were able to 1 shot him with all that HP and armor.
95p crossbow vs 30 str 10 IF 60 armor helmet
died from 1 shot to the head
Sniper Crossbow
thrust damage 75 pierce
So... a triple heirloomed sniper x-bow was the basis for testing? Also pointing out that he specifically said to the head.
Conclusion: The people whining about getting 1-shot by x-bows are either:
naked and low strength
getting shot in the face (headshots SHOULD 1-shot you)
lying
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Sniper Crossbow
thrust damage 75 pierce
So... a triple heirloomed sniper x-bow was the basis for testing? Also pointing out that he specifically said to the head.
Conclusion: The people whining about getting 1-shot by x-bows are either:
naked and low strength
getting shot in the face (headshots SHOULD 1-shot you)
lying
95p is MW + bolts. Thus regular is 83p. Just a minor thing though.
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No, you're wrong. This has been tested on the duel server thoroughly. With a headshot the regular xbow, heavy xbow and sniper xbow will all 1-shot a 27 str, 9 IF player wearing a 50 armor helmet. Masterworks are guaranteed.
1-shot body hits don't happen unless you're low str and nekkid.
How come a few of my headshots at people wearing heavy helmets doesn't kill them, and the 'whiplash-animation comes? I've seen enough of that animation in native to know that it's a survived headshot.
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95p is MW + bolts. Thus regular is 83p. Just a minor thing though.
Ah, you're right I didn't factor in bolts. Thanks.
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That sucks if you still were able to 1 shot him with all that HP and armor.
If it makes you feel better an 83p xbow 1 shot him at 1cm range once out of 20 times :x
anyways, tested a bit with 40 body armor body hits 18 str 0 if with 95p xbow
wouldn't 1 hit most of the time at this range so yeah whoever whined about that probably had some speed bonus heirloomed xbow shoot him:
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What's with that reticule? I have 160 in xbows and never have it that tight O.o
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No my "whining" is that the damage bonus from the heirlooms is pretty high.
If what you said is true that the guy with 30 str 10 IF and 60 armor got left with 15% life when hit in the body isn't that a bit too much damage considering it doesn't have any requirement apart of wpf?
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Yeah whaat that reticule.
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Fasaderp hax0r!
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it's a test mod, how else do you think a faceplate gives 60 head and 40 body armor? :X
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Olwen your rhimes suck ;D
..DON'T BUFF CROSSBOWS!
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it's a test mod, how else do you think a faceplate gives 60 head and 40 body armor? :X
I thought you were trying to fool these fools but I didn't want to call it because I'm so nice.
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make armour effect xbow wpf.
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make armour effect xbow wpf.
Completely illogical. Bows require manual dexterity in order to use properly. Melee weapons require manual dexterity in order to use properly. Xbows are point and pull trigger. Like a gun. Any pleb with a working finger and shoulder can point and shoot. Aim is simply a matter of training where to put the sights in order to hit the target you're looking at (wpf). Armor would not, and does not hinder this process in the slightest EXCEPT for possibly the close faced helmets impairing your vision. Other than that, I refer you to:
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If your guantlets/gloves allow you to make a fist that can grip a sword, you can pull a crossbow lever to fire it without issue.
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Completely illogical. Bows require manual dexterity in order to use properly. Melee weapons require manual dexterity in order to use properly. Xbows are point and pull trigger. Like a gun. Any pleb with a working finger and shoulder can point and shoot. Aim is simply a matter of training where to put the sights in order to hit the target you're looking at (wpf). Armor would not, and does not hinder this process in the slightest EXCEPT for possibly the close faced helmets impairing your vision. Other than that, I refer you to:
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If your guantlets/gloves allow you to make a fist that can grip a sword, you can pull a crossbow lever to fire it without issue.
How easy is reloading in cased gauntlets ?
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How easy is reloading in cased gauntlets ?
Not hard at all. Again, if you can make a fist you're golden. Put foot in stirrup, make a fist around the string, pull back until it locks behind the trigger, then put the bolt on and you're good.
x-bows weren't hard to use at all, hell you could have hooks for hands and still use and reload them find (except the winched ones, but still make a fist and use the crank handles).
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Not hard at all. Again, if you can make a fist you're golden. Put foot in stirrup, make a fist around the string, pull back until it locks behind the trigger, then put the bolt on and you're good.
x-bows weren't hard to use at all, hell you could have hooks for hands and still use and reload them find (except the winched ones, but still make a fist and use the crank handles).
Putting bolt where it should be is harder than without them. Operating with cased gauntlets is also harder than without, so speed of it decrease. I don't think it should affect accuracy, but reloading time surely.
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make armour effect xbow wpf.
This will only screw over dedicated xbowmen. They need better armor than, say, archers, cause they are forced to melee much more often.
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Balance wise gauntlets and helmet should affect xbow and throwing, not torso armor and leg armor (i don't think those two should affect melee proficiency as much as they do either).
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Putting bolt where it should be is harder than without them. Operating with cased gauntlets is also harder than without, so speed of it decrease. I don't think it should affect accuracy, but reloading time surely.
Not really. It really is as simple as "Can you make a closed hand with the gloves you're wearing?" If so you can operate an x-bow with just as much ease as someone with bare hands. In my RP days we'd play around with a hand drawn x-bow along with our bows and shoot at targets. X-bows really are retard simple to use and reload.
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and aiming through a helmet is totally logical.
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and aiming through a helmet is totally logical.
This I agree with. But the problem therein is that the game makes no distinction between close faced helmets and open faced helmets.
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Balance wise gauntlets and helmet should affect xbow and throwing, not torso armor and leg armor (i don't think those two should affect melee proficiency as much as they do either).
That has nothing to do with balance, but with trying to project real life into game.
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I laugh so fucken hard when I get shot in the face with sniper and heavy crossbows and live now adays I rock lordly gothic bevor 14 head armor with a great helm for 53 more head armor 30 str 7 if and I tend to live with about a quarter to a tenth of my hp depending on how heirloomed their xbow is and how far away they were.
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You all know armour weight has rffect on WPF already. Right? Unless xbow wpf is a random exception to the rule?
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You all know armour weight has rffect on WPF already. Right? Unless xbow wpf is a random exception to the rule?
It is an exception.
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Well thats just fucking stupid.
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Why?
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Well thats just fucking stupid.
I agree. if armour slows mele and makes throwing less accurate why the hell shouldn't it slow xbow reload and accuracy.
This I agree with. But the problem therein is that the game makes no distinction between close faced helmets and open faced helmets.
about the open vs non open helms, does it really matter? if it was done that way all the helms stats would need rebalancing based on that feature. stop being pedantic.
balance > realism
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You haver to be as flexible while reloading a crossbow as you do with any other weapon, more so in some respects. Bending and reaching down to your toes is no easy feat while wearing heavy armour i'd imagine.
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You haver to be as flexible while reloading a crossbow as you do with any other weapon, more so in some respects. Bending and reaching down to your toes is no easy feat while wearing heavy armour i'd imagine.
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Really?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kKLgSTkCEo&feature=related
Reloading and using a crossbow is retard simple. It really is. Go take a drive to someones house that has one. Try it. Retard simple, which is why they were useful in the first place. Just like guns.
I agree. if armour slows mele and makes throwing less accurate why the hell shouldn't it slow xbow reload and accuracy.
Because it makes no logical sense at all. Again: Can you make a fist? You'd need to in order to hold a sword/axe/whatever. If you can make a fist you can reload a x-bow. Next, can you hold your arm out? You'd need to in order to thrust/swing. Great, you can handle the x-bow. Can you make a fist? Cool, you can pull the lever on the x-bow in order to release the bolt. If the plastic didn't break from the weight you could reload and fire an x-bow using those little plastic grabby claws they sell at carnivals for kids.
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This is a game so balance comes before realism sorry gorath.
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I though this thread was about nerfing xbow as side arm while not screwing over dedicated xbowmen. This suggestion would screw over dedicated xbowmen. So come up with another one.
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i love how "hey that guy one shot me, he has 0 WPF and hes super accurate!!"
reality:
at least in my case 53 WPF, sure its not alot but its not zero, i know people with 0 pole arm that kill people.
I fired a dozen times to hit you...well at least three.
triple heirloomed crossbow...i dont one shot people as often as i want to, so if people are lucky and getting one hit kills with normal sniper xbows they are lucky bastards or shooting peasants.
which brings me to my main point, we need a game mode where it puts anyone level -15 gen 1 on one team and then any one 16+ on the other, they get sniper xbows and have to hunt the peasants, it would be for the royalty, lords and ladies would love it :mrgreen:
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I though this thread was about nerfing xbow as side arm while not screwing over dedicated xbowmen. This suggestion would screw over dedicated xbowmen. So come up with another one.
lets screw over them both
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This is a game so balance comes before realism sorry gorath.
And balance wise there's no reason to nerf x-bows, sorry Vexus.
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And balance wise there's no reason to nerf x-bows, sorry Vexus.
If it's true that it doesn't get penalty in wpf from weight then yes it should work for everything else xbow becomes the perfect ranged for hybrids (Which it is) and that's like um 80% of the players on map.
It's not good that almost anyone is using a ranged weapon and it's less good that you can 1 shot with a sniper so easily but this I could slip it off since in crpg they have such a slow reload unlike native.
Imo mostly weapons but also some armor should get their requirements upped.
To use a longbow/warbow you need 18 strength while using a sniper you need 15 strength?
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If it's true that it doesn't get penalty in wpf from weight then yes it should work for everything else xbow becomes the perfect ranged for hybrids (Which it is) and that's like um 80% of the players on map.
It's not good that almost anyone is using a ranged weapon and it's less good that you can 1 shot with a sniper so easily but this I could slip it off since in crpg they have such a slow reload unlike native.
Imo mostly weapons but also some armor should get their requirements upped.
To use a longbow/warbow you need 18 strength while using a sniper you need 15 strength?
1) You can't 1 shot with a sniper unless the person is naked, running towards you and has low strength. We've tested and talked about this many times in the forums here. Do a search.
2) If it was really the perfect hybrid option 90% of the players wouldn't be throw-hards. X-bows are slow sniper weapons, forever to reload and actually require wpf to have long range accuracy. Unlike throwing which simply requires PT with no wpf.
3) Everyone is using a ranged weapon because gamers min-max and want the most kills for the least amount of work. Cav suck, so we range them. Ranged sucks, so we range them back. 2h badasses are annoying so we shoot them in the face. Etc.
I'd rather have everyone using x-bows for their sidearm rather than the throwspam and arrowspam we have currently. At least with x-bowmen once they miss you have a good 10 seconds of free advance time to get to them before the next shot.
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Triple hierloomed sniper crossbow wont one shot (100% hp to 0% hp) anyone most of the times (tested, playing with one, till level 30). I don't unerstand where do you get the idea that sniper xbow is one shot one kill.
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It's a myth originating from ye olde 100p times (triple digit number OH NOEZ) where people whined because it killed their 0 IF agi chars in medium armour with one hit at point blank.
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It's a myth originating from ye olde 100p times (triple digit number OH NOEZ) where people whined because it killed their 0 IF agi chars in medium armour with one hit at point blank.
Quoted for turth!
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I get 1 shot several times from sniper xbow with an armor around 45 and no not headshot so it happens.
This is with a character with 21 strength, body armor 45 but no IF still a xbow shouldn't be able to 1 shot apart of headshot easily but probably nothing will be done anyway.
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I get 1 shot several times from sniper xbow with an armor around 45 and no not headshot so it happens.
This is with a character with 21 strength, body armor 45 but no IF still a xbow shouldn't be able to 1 shot apart of headshot easily but probably nothing will be done anyway.
I have hard time believing you, as I can't one shot light armored archers with my crossbow, unless point blank. 45 armor is banded armor, I can tell you I have never managed to one hit guy in that kind of armor.
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Probably was heirloomed the xbow but it does happen and is annoying honestly.
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As I said, I have mw sniper xbow, still I never one shotted anything above tunic over mail unless the guy was low level or nijna (read agi whore).
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Quoted for turth!
quoted for bias (fasader has master sniper if i;m not mistaken ;)
at the armour effected reload/accuracy arguement I'm not even going to bother its so fucking obvious already.
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I had a mw sniper prepatch. mighty 109(105+4)p! and tincans still survived 2 shots
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People are arguing this from the wrong point of view: it's not the worth of a crossbow to an individual that's the problem, it's the ease of use making the number of them constantly increase until, when you have a full server, the sky is black with arrows and bolts which in turn encourages more infantry to go ranged hybrid and so on, in a vicious circle. For the dedicated infantry and cavalry, who are essentially the ones Mount and Blade is supposed to focus on after all, this means you spend half the battle cowering behind your shield or a wall or riding round the edge of the map to avoid all the shooting, only taking part in the mopping up operation at the end.
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For the dedicated infantry and cavalry, who are essentially the ones Mount and Blade is supposed to focus on after all
^
Post a link to the game developers stating this. It's a false argument and you know it. Native wouldn't have archer and x-bowmen classes otherwise. Ranged is an equal third of the game, both SP and MP.
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Post a link to the game developers stating this. It's a false argument and you know it. Native wouldn't have archer and x-bowmen classes otherwise. Ranged is an equal third of the game, both SP and MP.
Not a third. Half.
One Handed:
Two Handed:
Polearm:
Archery:
Crossbow:
Throwing:
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Not a third. Half.
One Handed:
Two Handed:
Polearm:
Archery:
Crossbow:
Throwing:
sorry bro
1h sword
1h axe
1h mace
1h pick
2h sword
2h axe
2h maul
2h mace
staff
poleaxe
spear
hafted blade
hafted mace
bow
crossbow
throwing axe
throwing knife
javelin
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It's not good that almost anyone is using a ranged weapon and it's less good that you can 1 shot with a sniper so easily but this I could slip it off since in crpg they have such a slow reload unlike native.
Can you be one-shotted with an xbow? Yes. Is it "easy"? Definitely not.
I have a masterwork sniper xbow and triple heirloomed steel bolts. Would I one-shot your 21 str, ZERO ironflesh character while wearing medium-light armor(45 body armor is mail hauberk + mail gauntlets)? Sometimes, sure. But not at medium to long range. You are rocking a pretty low HP build, at only 48 HP. I suspect that there are LOTS of things that one-shot you. But that has more to do with your choice to have a relatively fragile build than any of those weapons being OP.
The moral of this story is, most people don't die to one shot, even from my triple loomed xbow plus triple loomed bolts.
Oh yeah, and for the record, my xbow character has about 150 wpf in xbows.
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This is an old thread but for your info with 21 strength and 0 IF you would have 56 hp not 48 :)
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sorry bro
1h sword
1h axe
1h mace
1h pick
2h sword
2h axe
2h maul
2h mace
staff
poleaxe
spear
hafted blade
hafted mace
bow
crossbow
throwing axe
throwing knife
javelin
Dedicated bundle of stickss cant do the maths, Fasa..... :wink:
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This is an old thread but for your info with 21 strength and 0 IF you would have 56 hp not 48 :)
I don't believe that this has been confirmed publically. You're assuming HP starts at 38 by default. I was basing it off of starting at 30. I was probably wrong. But any way you flip it, you have ZERO ironflesh, and CHOSE to have a lower HP build. With 21 STR, I'm guessing that you probably converted 8 points. If that is the case, you could have altered your build by having 1 less Power X, and instead had 6 levels of ironflesh, which would give you 12 hp; 9 hp more than the conversions to strength gave you.
Those 9 hp would likely save you from being one-shotted by a loomed sniper xbow.
My biggest issue with people who whine about being one-shotted(not calling you in particular a whiner), is that the majority of the time, they don't design their build with surviveability/HP in mind, and just think that NO ONE should be one-shotted, even if they have a build with relatively few hitpoints.
My opinion? If you give up IF to get another 3 strength/agi, so that you can get more PS/PD/ATH/WM, then you're giving up all those extra HP, and should be conceding to the fact that by doing so, you are more likely to be killed more quickly by high damage weapons. It's a tradeoff. We should all learn to love tradeoffs, since that is the trademark of a good, balanced RPG character development system.
EDIT: And yeah, this thread is relatively old, but the arguments within it are still current, since there hasn't been a patch since it was started. And for the record, I'm not the one who resurrected it. :D
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post edited and removed in the midst of all the futility.
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Actually my "whining" like I said is not in general about the xbow damage but that it's easy to use even with 1 wpf hence why almost everyone has one nowadays.
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With 1 wpf its way inaccurate to be used for great effect, from my experience i more often see builds wich have more xbow wpf and sacrafice the mele weapon wpf, not the other way around.
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With 1 wpf its way inaccurate to be used for great effect,
respectfully disagree. I have tested it several times. Recently, I was playing with my alt char (2H + a few points in throwing), grabbed a "sniper crossbow" and some steel bolts from the floor, and took up the same position that I often take with my main char (>130 WPF archer with triple-heirloomed warbow...). That castle with the flag in the middle on top of the building with the long winding stairs around the building.
Mid-range shooting on moving targets on the outer wall - there were just a few bolts left, but I had 60% hits and 2 kills. Definitely better than most reasonably skilled archers will achieve in that position.
The only thing that is a real pain with 1 WPF is not the accuracy, but the reloading time, that takes half the round... ;-)
So xbows are exactly the same that they were in reality: a very efficient and accurate weapon for peasants and other skill-less bastards.
In the middle ages there were actually discussions to ban that weapon, like we today talk about cluster bombs and landmines.
So: xbows ARE a pain in the ass, and we have to cope with that. Only thing that I would suggest is a great idea from another thread: make upkeep costs depend on WPF, so if you use a weapon that you have no skill for, it will more likely break and be more expensive.
Tthat would limit the xbow-sidearm plague a bit.
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Only thing that I would suggest is a great idea from another thread: make upkeep costs depend on WPF, so if you use a weapon that you have no skill for, it will more likely break and be more expensive.
Tthat would limit the xbow-sidearm plague a bit.
I doubt this would accomplish anything, since the vast majority of xbow users HAVE xbow wpf. The core of the problem, right now, is that there is no reason NOT to be a hybrid. On one of my recent builds, I gave up only ~10 wpf in my main weapon to get ~100 wpf in a secondary weapon.
I believe that if they make wpf scale the same way it did pre-patch, without the wpf bonuses from retirement, we will see more specialists, less hybrids, and in effect, less ranged spam in general. It also won't allow people to get to wpf levels that "break the game", contrary to what several people on the forums would have you believe.
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if by ~10 you mean 20 then yes.
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if by ~10 you mean 20 then yes.
If you're talking about lower levels of WM(4ish), yes. At higher levels of WM, you give up only a few points to get wpf in another weapon. For instance, at 9 WM, if you give up 10 wpf from your main weapon, you get exactly 90 wpf in a secondary weapon. Even at lower WM levels(4); giving up 10 points in your primary weapon gives a pretty decent amount(67 wpf) in a secondary weapon.
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No, I'm talking about a reasonable build, 10 for 100 works only at 211 to 221 which can be done at lvl 31 if you convert everything and only level weapon master.
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Then he will convert 17 wpf from main weapon. Big difference, 163 wpf instead of 180.
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Difference in 10 and 17 is 7 which is 70% of what he suggested. If he said ~15 then yes, I could live with that. Playing some 12str build that can work.
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Difference in 10 and 17 is 7 which is 70% of what he suggested. If he said ~15 then yes, I could live with that. Playing some 12str build that can work.
~100 means "about 100". I was referring to a recent 9 WM build I made, in which I gave up 10 wpf in my main weapon to get 90 in a secondary weapon. Check the math. It works.
btw, the build was exactly as follows:
Level 30
8 points converted
IF: 1
PS: 4
ATH: 9
WM: 9
Two Handed: 170 WPF
Xbow: 90 WPF
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would be 170 and 85, you got wrong numbers :x I'm just pointing out that you like to round up making it look far worse than it is.
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would be 170 and 85, you got wrong numbers :x I'm just pointing out that you like to round up making it look far worse than it is.
The WPF calculator says 170 and 90 with 2 points left over. It might be slightly off, but since I don't currently have the build, I can't double check it. I'm not rounding up. I'm just using the only tools I have available to me, which just happen to be unofficial, since pretty much anything useful is unofficial when it comes to crpg.
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I posted a while ago in Vargas' thread about his WPF inaccuracies here (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,37.msg17489.html#msg17489). For some reason, he never updated his calculator.
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well the WPF calc is wrong, I told you the correct value, it's 85 :-| if 85 to 100 isn't rounding up I don't know what is.
edit: another thing, with 180 wpf at those stats you have 8 points left to spend so it would actually be 82 if you don't use those.
Or increase from 9 to 85 if you do use them (that's 76).
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sorry bro
1h sword
1h axe
1h mace
1h pick
2h sword
2h axe
2h maul
2h mace
staff
poleaxe
spear
hafted blade
hafted mace
bow
crossbow
throwing axe
throwing knife
javelin
And what did you want to say with this list of weapons?
All characters have 6 way to improve his weapon mastery. 3 of them melee, other 3 ranged.
One Handed
Two Handed
Polearm
Archery
Crossbow
Throwing
I think it simple enough to understand.
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So ranged is half of the game. That only supports Goraths argument. Do you think developers' main focus was on the melee and then they just filled the other half of the game with ranged? Doesn't make much sense, does it? You have equal melee/ranged wpf possibility, only brain-dead people can conclude that main focus is melee from that.
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sorry bro
1h sword
1h axe <--- All of them are simply 1hers
1h mace
1h pick
2h sword
2h axe <--- All of them are simply 2hers
2h maul
2h mace
staff
poleaxe
spear <--All of them are simply "Polearms"
hafted blade
hafted mace
bow
crossbow
throwing axe
throwing knife
javelin
Anyways, your bundle of sticksry notwithstanding, I was referring to:
Melee
Cavalry
Ranged
Those are the 3 main playstyles, and then you can break them down into their sub-catagories such as 1h, 2h, PA, Archery, x-bow, throwing, light cav, heavy cav, HA, etc.
Either way, the point stands. While the focus of the game SHOULD be the melee combat 100% because that is what is truly revolutionary and awesome, the truth is that ranged is just as much a main factor of the game.
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What is this I don't even...
I suggest you follow the quote train maybe you'll see what I was referring to and whom I had quoted.
Also, you forgot to add:
bow
crossbow
throwing axe
throwing knife <------ all of them are simply ranged.
javelin
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What is this I don't even...
I suggest you follow the quote train maybe you'll see what I was referring to and whom I had quoted.
Also, you forgot to add:
bow
crossbow
throwing axe
throwing knife <------ all of them are simply ranged.
javelin
...gay is ok Fasa.....you of all should know it, youre austro-hungarian......."european"....... :twisted:
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What is this I don't even...
I suggest you follow the quote train maybe you'll see what I was referring to and whom I had quoted.
Also, you forgot to add:
bow
crossbow
throwing axe
throwing knife <------ all of them are simply ranged.
javelin
Actually my quote train derailed as I was trying to multi-quote Gnjus's "bundle of sticks" post where he quoted yours, only I skipped a step in my rush to get the post done so I could bail on the puter. Mah bad. :oops:If you can, try to imagine my post being more clearly directed at Gnjus's trololo'ing. :mrgreen:
And yes, you're right, those are all "simply ranged", though I kind of assumed that was implied. But assumptions and things about asses and such. :P I still maintain that the "third" I was referring to was in regards to the: Melee>Ranged>Mounted trifecta.