cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Arn_Magnusson on February 16, 2012, 08:45:17 pm

Title: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: Arn_Magnusson on February 16, 2012, 08:45:17 pm
Atm I'm 15/9 just after retire :S.

So at the and I'll have popular build 15/24 with 172 wpf.
My uniform weight is 21kg. when I put it into calculator it shown up that it'll be 139, penatly 19%.
Then my question is:
Is 139 wpf in 2h enough to be really fast? Or should I change my cloth to lighter :S
Title: Re: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: engurrand on February 16, 2012, 08:47:43 pm
just wear green tunic and some shoes
Title: Re: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: Arn_Magnusson on February 16, 2012, 08:48:31 pm
Well, I used to :D But now I wan't to look stylish  8-) If you know what I mean...
Title: Re: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: Penitent on February 16, 2012, 08:51:16 pm
Yes, 139wpf is enough to be fast and lop off heads.

I don' t know if it will be really fast, but at least medium fast. :)  For really fast you have to lighten the load.  Also, it depends on what weapon you use.  Katana?  Really fast.  Great Long Bardiche?  Not so much.  Actually weapon speed is more important than wpf in determining swing speed.

Lots of people play with 111 wpf, so you'll be faster than them for sure.
Title: Re: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: Penitent on February 16, 2012, 08:52:50 pm
dbl post oops
Title: Re: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: Rhaelys on February 16, 2012, 08:52:58 pm
Quote from: Rhaelys on February 03, 2012, 08:19:40 am
Per WaltF4's Weapon attack speed and proficiency and not agility (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2531.msg62636.html#msg62636):

Let's use a Spear (98 speed) for approximation purposes.

y=-0.0008x+1.1071

For 115 WPF (0 WM), swing speed would be 1.0151 seconds.

For 141 WPF (4 WM), swing speed would be 0.9943 seconds.

This translates to a 2.05% increase in swing speed. However, the absolute difference in swing speed is only 0.0208 seconds, or 20.8 milliseconds.
Title: Re: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: _Tak_ on February 16, 2012, 08:56:19 pm
Quote from: Rhaelys on February 16, 2012, 08:52:58 pm


I tested it with 111 wps and 156 wps and it does make a difference, obviously 156 wps is faster (using polearm)

"The more point you put in throwing, archery or crossbow you will reload those weapons faster , i have tested this on native with over 300 wps".

If you had 250 wps in 1 handed you swing super fast, you can always try some test on native. WPS does affect your weapon speed, while AGI improve running speed.


EDIT: I am a modder
Title: Re: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: engurrand on February 16, 2012, 09:01:47 pm
the most important thing about that equation is that it is different for each weapon.
Title: Re: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: Rhaelys on February 16, 2012, 09:07:48 pm
The point I was trying to get across was that the relative speed increase is barely noticeable, and really only matters if all you do is hang around the duel server.

But then again why should I try to continue to convince people that Weapon Master is currently a poor investment? That would just make everyone go Strength, and I would lose my crutch.
Title: Re: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: Arn_Magnusson on February 16, 2012, 09:16:33 pm
Thanks for advices and especially for Rhaelys, that shown when you get higher with wpf the differences gets much bigger. I'm using +1 German GS.
Title: Re: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: Teeth on February 16, 2012, 09:18:49 pm
28 wpf points make you swing 0,0208 seconds faster. This just shows that all the guys who said the 0.1 second speed decrease of polearm/2h rightswing we had a while ago was no big deal are a bunch of retards. 0.1 seconds in swing difference equals 134 wpf points. I knew it.

Quote from: Arn_Magnusson on February 16, 2012, 09:16:33 pm
Thanks for advices and especially for Rhaelys, that shown when you get higher with wpf the differences gets much bigger. I'm using +1 German GS.
Not really his point. The investment of 28 more wpf points only increases the swing speed with 28 milliseconds. Which is really not a alot. His point is that you shouldnt worry about the wpf reduction of armour, because the difference between 150 and 100 effective wpf is really small.

The only thing you should worry about is the decrease of your movement speed.

Rhaelys, how positive are you on the correctness of that calculation by the way? Think its about time I drop WM altogether if that is really the case.
Title: Re: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: engurrand on February 16, 2012, 09:25:39 pm
yea i am really interested in the validity of the calculation.
Don't want to sound like a dick or nothing but i have worked in scientific settings and i reviewed his data. he is very good at getting measurements out of the game from the engine but there are a lot of variables that need to be accounted for.|

One that stands out most importantly is the difference between the "time" between attacks and the "speed" of an attack. The rate at which you swing may increase slightly, but is there any effect upon the "speed" of the swing it self?

I hope this concept is clear. I'm still very new to M&B but i am interested.

So the time it takes for you to swing again vrs the time it takes for the animation to complete.

Anyone know bout this?
Title: Re: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: Rhaelys on February 16, 2012, 09:27:50 pm
Quote from: SgtTeeh on February 16, 2012, 09:18:49 pm
28 wpf points make you swing 0,0208 seconds faster. This just shows that all the guys who said the 0.1 second speed decrease of polearm/2h rightswing we had a while ago was no big deal are a bunch of retards. 0.1 seconds in swing difference equals 134 wpf points. I knew it.
Not really his point. The investment of 28 more wpf points only increases the swing speed with 28 milliseconds. Which is really not a alot. His point is that you shouldnt worry about the wpf reduction of armour, because the difference between 150 and 100 effective wpf is really small.

The only thing you should worry about is the decrease of your movement speed.

Rhaelys, how positive are you on the correctness of that calculation by the way? Think its about time I drop WM altogether if that is really the case.

About 4.3 KDR positive.
Title: Re: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: engurrand on February 16, 2012, 10:52:49 pm
if this rate of attack speed increase is all that you get, and it's really so small... then that WM skill is totally useless.

Which means, free points for everyone...
Title: Re: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: Cyclopsided on February 16, 2012, 11:05:43 pm
Quote from: engurrand on February 16, 2012, 10:52:49 pm
if this rate of attack speed increase is all that you get, and it's really so small... then that WM skill is totally useless.

Which means, free points for everyone...
shhhhhhhhhhh
WM is needed for ranged users and melee hybrids.
Just not necessary for a pure 2h, pure 1h, or pure pole arm melee.

Quote from: Rhaelys on February 16, 2012, 09:27:50 pm
About 4.3 KDR positive.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: Penitent on February 16, 2012, 11:06:16 pm
WPF also increases damage.

I can feel the difference between 100 and 140wpf.  It might be 20 milliseconds, but that counts in my book.

Difference between 60 and 80 ping.  Doesn't seem like much but it helps!
Title: Re: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: Cyclopsided on February 16, 2012, 11:12:15 pm
consider the average reaction time of players is 200 ms. the little differences add up.
200 ms to react, 80 from latency, additional 20 from slightly slower weapon speed. That is 300 ms, plenty enough time to block and attack (surprisingly)
Now consider a player with a 150 ms reaction, 20 ping, and 180 wm + a fast weapon? 170 ms. Nearly half the time, allowing a bunch more timings regarding attack windows.

Ideally you should just react fast AND go low WM with a fast weapon while <40 ping. best of all worlds. (I hate my 80 ping. I can chamber held attacks, but barely.)



Anyways, on topic. Use light/medium armor. If you use heavy armor, you are slowing yourself down, NEGATING THE WHOLE REASON YOU WENT AGILITY!
Title: Re: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: _Tak_ on February 17, 2012, 12:44:03 pm
I have made a STF char with 189 wps and it swing alot faster?
Title: Re: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: Arn_Magnusson on February 17, 2012, 01:21:21 pm
Quote from: Marathon on February 16, 2012, 11:12:15 pm
Anyways, on topic. Use light/medium armor. If you use heavy armor, you are slowing yourself down, NEGATING THE WHOLE REASON YOU WENT AGILITY!

You mean? Now I have Light Kuyak, PLate Mittens Niskolskoe Helmet and Rus Splinted Greaves. How much should I reduce the weight of it? About 5kg or 10?
Title: Re: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: Zerran on February 17, 2012, 01:33:39 pm
Just a couple things I'd like to throw in here.

First off, that 20 ms difference is only for the COMPLETE swing (i.e if you hit them at the very very end of your swing) most people hit very early in the swing (turning into the swing + moving into it) so the actual difference will be in the lower single digit ms.

Second, the biggest penalty to your attack speed from armor comes from the acceleration penalty (movement), NOT from the wpf penalty. The wpf penalty isn't even noticeable, however your acceleration is hampered greatly from increased weight, and so you can't move into your swings AS EASILY. With good footwork though, this can still be overcome, largely by using your opponent's movements against them.

Anyway, point is: don't choose armor based on what it will do to your attack speed. Choose it based on what it does to your MOVEMENT speed (and particularly what it does to your acceleration). Footwork is crucial to every build, every weapon, and every play style. However, some need it more than others, and some people just don't use good footwork enough.

My personal recommendation: try out different armor weights and see what feels the best to you. Some people can do fine in plate, others do better in lamellar. The armor weight that's best for you is very personal to your style, and, imo, can't be chosen by number crunching, you just have to try stuff out.
Title: Re: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: Arn_Magnusson on February 17, 2012, 03:03:20 pm
Okay, thanks for advices :) I'll test light armours, but I think that one will be good, cause I already wear similar with my 18/21 pole build and it was okay even for dueling, also my footwork isn't bad so I think current will be enogh with 8 ath. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Proper weight for 15/24 build.
Post by: Rhaelys on February 17, 2012, 08:04:56 pm
Quote from: AlexTheDragon on February 17, 2012, 12:44:03 pm
I have made a STF char with 189 wps and it swing alot faster?

Apparently you cannot grasp the message I and several others here are trying to convey, so I think I will stop bothering to explain to anyone from now.