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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: darmaster on February 04, 2012, 09:16:54 pm

Title: Pikes and similar
Post by: darmaster on February 04, 2012, 09:16:54 pm
once upon a time you couldn't block with a too long weapon, like pike or long spear or whatever.. couldn't you put this back :/ ?
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: Canny on February 04, 2012, 09:26:59 pm
nope
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAvQ6PdE4OI
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: Zerran on February 04, 2012, 09:39:23 pm
Um... the fuck? This would make these weapons totally useless.
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: Bazinga on February 04, 2012, 09:40:55 pm
once upon a time you couldn't block with a too long weapon, like pike or long spear or whatever.. couldn't you put this back :/ ?

Wait... what? They already reduced speed, reduced damage, 3 slots, not sheathable, unbalanced, price high and you guys are still not satisfied.. seriously.. Why don't you suggest taking it out of the game so cav gets even more powerful..
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: Huey Newton on February 04, 2012, 10:24:48 pm
Agreed.
Taking blocking from longspears/ pikes was an excellent change.

However this would only nerf longspears/pikes vs infantry. Vs cavalry the change wouldn't affect much.
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: darmaster on February 04, 2012, 10:26:37 pm
Wait... what? They already reduced speed, reduced damage, 3 slots, not sheathable, unbalanced, price high and you guys are still not satisfied.. seriously.. Why don't you suggest taking it out of the game so cav gets even more powerful..

well it's quite annoying being ganked from 3 bamboo spears, with overheads or thrusts, every time.. this stuff should be useful only for cav, not for duels :S and bamboo doesn't occupy 3 slots (and imo 3 slots are stupid, it's a support weapon against cav, not a stand alone weapon :S).. it's strange when you block a knife with a 3mt weapon :|
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 04, 2012, 10:37:08 pm
well it's quite annoying being ganked from 3 bamboo spears

I find it annoying getting ganked by three of anything.
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: dodnet on February 04, 2012, 10:40:13 pm
Nevermind, OP is a retard.
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: Kafein on February 04, 2012, 10:51:40 pm
It would actually make sense to make pikes unable to block, deal much more damage, and crushthrough blocks (couched lance-like). But then a pikeman would have a "death zone" around him, which isn't cool for the gameplay. Pikes are ok atm. Bamboo, awlpike and ash pike might need a slight rethinking, but overall they are in good place.

I find it annoying getting ganked by three of anything.

I find it enjoyable to be "ganked" by 3 shielders, or even 2h in some cases. Fighting 3 cav when you are cav yourself isn't much more difficult than fighting one. However, pikes and ranged always are much more difficult to deal with when they are outnumbering. And cav if you aren't cav yourself and if the terrain is open enough. Although a pointy stick is usually enough to repel them.
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: wayyyyyne on February 04, 2012, 10:53:17 pm
OMG I got the most crazy idea!

Why not just restore their old strenght but remove their blocking ability..?
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: Leshma on February 04, 2012, 11:11:27 pm
Because they did that in the past for one day, until cmpx figured out that he can't use such weapon and reverted the change.
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: Leshma on February 04, 2012, 11:15:03 pm
I find it annoying getting ganked by three of anything.

Well, not all weapons are the same. Twohanders are easiest because many of them won't swing like fools (they are afraid they'll hit their teammates). Shielders are pain the ass to fight against (1 vs 2 or more) but group of pikemen are almost impossible to fight against.

And there's that broken weapon called Awlpike. Fighting one guy using that shit is hard, fighting more than one is impossible.
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: Konrax on February 05, 2012, 12:20:00 am
I think the problem is with jump spin stabs with such long weapons.

Maybe limit how much you can actually turn, or how fast you can turn based on your weapons length.
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: Zerran on February 05, 2012, 12:48:14 am
I think the problem is with jump spin stabs with such long weapons.

Maybe limit how much you can actually turn, or how fast you can turn based on your weapons length.

If they weren't 3 slot this wouldn't be the only way to fight with these weapons.

I love how people complained and complained until they made longspear and pike 3 slot so you have to use it as your main weapon and can't carry a decent alternative weapon to swap to, and then get pissed that people start using the pike and longspear as their main weapon. Just fucking down block and don't spam for crying out loud.  :rolleyes:

well it's quite annoying being ganked from 3 bamboo spears, with overheads or thrusts, every time.. this stuff should be useful only for cav, not for duels :S and bamboo doesn't occupy 3 slots (and imo 3 slots are stupid, it's a support weapon against cav, not a stand alone weapon :S).. it's strange when you block a knife with a 3mt weapon :|

And I find it strange that ONE PERSON can block an infinite number of pikemen as long as they face them and down block. Have you ever tried dueling with these weapons? I'd rather have a danish or LHB any day if I'm dueling someone who isn't a complete noob.

Apologies for the rant, it just amazes me that of all weapons, people complain about these two and completely ignore the fact that cav are still OP enough that the team with the most cav wins 90% of the time.
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: Rumblood on February 05, 2012, 12:49:26 am
I got to watch a pike demonstration earlier illustrating the problem with these guys.

Player with Pike, positioned right behind his teammate. He thrusts down and left, swings the pole through his teammates body, then releases through the teammate and kills the enemy.

Glitching in order to be viable as a weapon choice really isn't a good gaming choice.
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: zagibu on February 05, 2012, 02:17:12 am
I got to watch a pike demonstration earlier illustrating the problem with these guys.

Player with Pike, positioned right behind his teammate. He thrusts down and left, swings the pole through his teammates body, then releases through the teammate and kills the enemy.

Glitching in order to be viable as a weapon choice really isn't a good gaming choice.

In a way, it simulates real shieldwalls and pikemen behind them.
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: Oggrinsky on February 05, 2012, 03:32:10 am
I got to watch a pike demonstration earlier illustrating the problem with these guys.

Player with Pike, positioned right behind his teammate. He thrusts down and left, swings the pole through his teammates body, then releases through the teammate and kills the enemy.

Glitching in order to be viable as a weapon choice really isn't a good gaming choice.

This "glitching" is only creating a convenient substitute for the lack of good pike/hit box mechanics in the game. This is an absurdly long weapon. If you were standing behind someone with a shield, holding a pike, you wouldn't hold the end of pike at your buddies back would you? No, you wouldn't. You would hold the pike so it moved in between the ranks of other infantry... like how a Sarissa phalanx worked for the Macedonians. This "glitching" is necessary unless further changes can me made to the engine with WSE.
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: dodnet on February 05, 2012, 09:03:53 am
I got to watch a pike demonstration earlier illustrating the problem with these guys.

Player with Pike, positioned right behind his teammate. He thrusts down and left, swings the pole through his teammates body, then releases through the teammate and kills the enemy.

Glitching in order to be viable as a weapon choice really isn't a good gaming choice.

Similar bugs are with EVERY weapon in the game as it doesn't count hits on anything with the shaft. Its stupid that you can start a 2h thrust into nothing and and turn it during the animation from the back into someone making heavy thrust damage. Or archers shooting out of hey and half through doors.

I don't think that it can be fixed as you wouldn't be able to move anymore with a long spear/pike if you get stopped every time it hits an obstacle. You would get stuck in a door, near walls, in groups as you can't hold the pike in another way then the game suggests.
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: darmaster on February 05, 2012, 12:00:35 pm


And I find it strange that ONE PERSON can block an infinite number of pikemen as long as they face them and down block. Have you ever tried dueling with these weapons? I'd rather have a danish or LHB any day if I'm dueling someone who isn't a complete noob.

Apologies for the rant, it just amazes me that of all weapons, people complain about these two and completely ignore the fact that cav are still OP enough that the team with the most cav wins 90% of the time.
[/quote]

yep maybe for pikes, but bamboos and long awplikes are quite OP maybe :/ as i said imo they're SUPPORTING weapons
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: dodnet on February 05, 2012, 12:32:52 pm
yep maybe for pikes, but bamboos and long awplikes are quite OP maybe :/ as i said imo they're SUPPORTING weapons

Yeah, bamboo spears are so OP that almost no one ever uses them *facepalm* learn2block
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: [ptx] on February 05, 2012, 12:38:36 pm
My Greatsword+Khuyak-using alt approves of this. Also, narf shields and ranged and polearms, please.
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: darmaster on February 05, 2012, 02:05:20 pm
Yeah, bamboo spears are so OP that almost no one ever uses them *facepalm* learn2block


well don't know where you play, but even people without wpf uses bamboo spears (:
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 05, 2012, 07:36:02 pm

And I find it strange that ONE PERSON can block an infinite number of pikemen as long as they face them and down block. Have you ever tried dueling with these weapons? I'd rather have a danish or LHB any day if I'm dueling someone who isn't a complete noob.

Wait, so you want to nerf the crap out of this weapon, yet dislike that one person can block... countless... wait...

I'm confuzzled  :(
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: Zerran on February 05, 2012, 08:03:23 pm
Wait, so you want to nerf the crap out of this weapon, yet dislike that one person can block... countless... wait...

I'm confuzzled  :(

He messed up a quote. That was something I said but he accidentally deleted the top line.  :lol:

And back on topic, You DO realize that every weapon in the game aside from longspear and pike are impossible to block if you just have 2 people swinging different directions at you, right? It's not like bamboo spears and awlpikes have this magical capability to ignore blocks. The reason you get gangbanged by them is because generally people using these weapons ARE using them for support, and so run in groups and WORK TOGETHER, while 2H heroes are much more likely to run around solo, and when they get in groups they just rush forward without thinking about what the others are doing.
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 05, 2012, 08:05:52 pm
He messed up a quote. That was something I said but he accidentally deleted the top line.  :lol:

Oh... That makes more sense.  :oops:
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: dodnet on February 06, 2012, 12:25:18 pm
well don't know where you play, but even people without wpf uses bamboo spears (:

Mostly on EU1 and I rarely see any bamboo spear. Even long spear and pikes aren't used much despite the many cav around. I'm one of the few to hold a long spear from time to time.
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: dodnet on February 06, 2012, 01:15:10 pm
First: This is Game Balance board, not Realism board.
Second: Have you ever wondered how the hell do you block with a 40cm hammer or a 48cm handaxe or a...? You would get you hands cut of or smashed into pieces if you try to block with these toys.

Edit: nevermind, misunderstood the post before me  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: darmaster on February 06, 2012, 08:15:30 pm
First: This is Game Balance board, not Realism board.
Second: Have you ever wondered how the hell do you block with a 40cm hammer or a 48cm handaxe or a...? You would get you hands cut of or smashed into pieces if you try to block with these toys.

Edit: nevermind, misunderstood the post before me  :rolleyes:


well listen: ask yourself why pikes and bamboos are not allowed in melee server
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: RibaldRon on February 06, 2012, 08:26:40 pm
This actually seems perfectly fine to me.

Yes there are some weird "glitches" which are a part of gameplay, nothing you haven't seen before in a movie.  :rolleyes: Not on the realism board, remember?  And these moves are TOUGH to get off.  If you've got a team around you, even the pro-est of the pros will be hesitant.


I have seen multiple pikes used to great advantage, and I've seen them destroyed on subsequent rounds.

Pike users are in big trouble if somebody just downblocks, or approaches with a shield.  There's your counter.  :P  Long spears and such weapons with side-swings and overheads are still fairly slow enough that it should be easier to block than many other weapons.  It's not as though they have crushthrough and knockdown like a maul - as in they can be LITERALLY impossible to block.
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: Diomedes on February 06, 2012, 08:36:13 pm
The only thing about pikes I take issue with right now is the spin+stab.  Players who use this are able to hit an opponent a foot away from them with the full thrusting force of a meters long pike.  If the pike is so deadly at range (kills cav, hits through allies, and it exceptionally useful with groups) it shouldn't be so deadly in extreme close range.  I'd prefer that pikemen block normally but not spin+stab players immediately adjacent to them.  It would make it into even more of a support-class while not being entirely gimped in immediate close range.
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: Patoson on February 06, 2012, 08:52:12 pm
I have played as a pikeman for some time, and it was very easy to block your way out of a spammer, until you managed to kill him or run away. Tenne and Bifi can confirm that :)

I think pikemen shouldn't be able to block so easily/fast, since long spears and pikes are very long weapons. It doesn't make sense that a pikeman can switch from a block direction to another as fast as a 1h or 2h.
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: dodnet on February 06, 2012, 10:39:46 pm
I think pikemen shouldn't be able to block so easily/fast, since long spears and pikes are very long weapons. It doesn't make sense that a pikeman can switch from a block direction to another as fast as a 1h or 2h.

Well if you look at the weight, a few other weapons shouldn't be able to block fast too: mauls, axes, some of them weight more then twice the amount of a pike. Or how can you raise a shield with twice the weight that fast if you hold it with only one hand? No one complains about that. There are so many things that are unrealistic, but after all its just a game...
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: Zerran on February 07, 2012, 01:06:59 am
it was very easy to block your way out of a spammer, until you managed to kill him or run away.

But that's just the problem. For some reason when people run up to a pikeman all they can think to do is spam mindlessly. When I've got my pike people never try feints or holds, or anything fancy. They just click, release, click, release, click, release. VERY easy to block that, even against fast weapons.

Try these things against a pikeman sometime and see how it works out.
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: Tanken on February 07, 2012, 01:48:26 am
From a Pike User in a Pike Loving clan I can tell you this, Pikes are not OP.

They are great as Support Weapons because they can make your enemy fear you holding them much the same they fear an archer aiming at them or a Mauler approaching them. The damage is nice -if- you hit the sweet spot AND connect otherwise you end up getting weird hit placement and striking teammates or glancing off of your enemy when it should be a clean blow.

Also, in regards to it's "speed" the delay between your thrust and the time to put up a block is excruciating. It feels easily like a .8 second to 1 second delay which is crucial in combat. During that time of unbalance, we are susceptible to many easy-to-land attacks from any weapon.

Leave Pikes alone, don't worry about awlpikes and spears. It's not a big deal. If you want to not get killed by a pike, either A) Run away, B) Get a Team to Combat Against it, C) Down-block and close the gap and wait for them to attack because you'll have a second-long window to start killing them, or D) Get an archer to take care of them or a thrower.

I mean c'mon people, the weapon is long, yes, but it's slow and it attacks 1 ONE UNO direction. It also has a delay from the time of thrust to the hitbox impact so even when our swing starts you have a few brief moments to downblock. Spin-Stabbing is fun, but it is difficult to pull off, and if you miss you still have to suffer that 1 second window of defenselessness not to mention pray you put up a block the correct direction to counter your opponent.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: Zerran on February 07, 2012, 04:03:04 am
I'm starting to think that a lot of the complaints about pikes and longspears are getting muddled together and confused, so allow me to clarify what exactly each of these weapons can do. Despite the common belief that these are similar weapons, while they fill a similar role they play COMPLETELY differently. Comparing them is like comparing the GLB with the longsword, yet I often see people complaining about them while combining their strong points, as if there was some combined uber weapon that had the strengths of both.

LONGSPEAR:

can stab almost at facehugging distance
relatively MUCH faster
-55 length compared to the pike
CAN stab around teammates, but has a MUCH harder time doing so, and is much more likely to get teamhits trying this

PIKE:

cannot stab unless the target is ~3-4 feet away, which means a helicopter spin is NECESSARY to hit targets after they get in facehugging range unless they back off.
VERY VERY slow. As Tanken said, the delay after a thrust is around a full second. For comparison, this weapon is a whopping 12 speed SLOWER than the Great Maul
                                  -The speed difference between the pike and longspear is the same as the difference between the Great Maul and the SoW
55 length longer than the longspear (This makes a MASSIVE difference)
Can very easily stab around teammates and small structures.
Title: Re: Pikes and similar
Post by: Tanken on February 07, 2012, 08:46:31 am
Leave pikes and long spears of all sorts, alone. They enforce natural teamplay so counter it with same elements. Never go alone against 2 players out of which one is piker, and you will be fine.

Thank you. They -are- Teamplay weapons, they don't do well by themselves.