cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Cup1d on February 02, 2012, 05:30:18 pm

Title: 2 question for Paul
Post by: Cup1d on February 02, 2012, 05:30:18 pm
1. Is this info correct?

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 (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/826/archerywpf.jpg/)



2. More interesting question for you

If longbow maximum range = 300m, then with this formula

S = V0² sin2α/g

We must have
300 = 54² sin(2*45)/9.8

But we have
163,2 = 40² sin(2*45)/9.8
Title: Re: 2 question for Paul
Post by: Arkonor on February 02, 2012, 06:20:29 pm
People didn't use meters in the middle ages :P

But yeah are you sure the "40^2" part is actually meters?

Btw you cut out the most important part of that screenshot. They gear you are using. Plate with an archer maybe ? :D
Title: Re: 2 question for Paul
Post by: Cup1d on February 02, 2012, 06:53:45 pm
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 (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/14/archerywpf2.jpg/)

Better now, Arkonor?




Quote from: Arkonor on February 02, 2012, 06:20:29 pm
People didn't use meters in the middle ages :P

But yeah are you sure the "40^2" part is actually meters?

Btw you cut out the most important part of that screenshot. They gear you are using. Plate with an archer maybe ? :D


AFAIK, we have metric system in this game.
Title: Re: 2 question for Paul
Post by: Zerran on February 02, 2012, 07:24:34 pm
Powerdraw reduces your effective wpf by 14 per point, so yes that is correct.
Title: Re: 2 question for Paul
Post by: Xant on February 02, 2012, 07:27:07 pm
PAUL
Title: Re: 2 question for Paul
Post by: _Sebastian_ on February 02, 2012, 08:28:46 pm
I found this in an old thread.
Quote from: Paul on December 21, 2011, 12:05:54 am
Without the cRPG wpf reduction from PD, each level of PD would give as much accuracy precision as +20 archery wpf if I remember correctly.

I dont know the correct numbers of WPF increading/decreasing per PD in crpg, but PD up to 5 increases wpf and PD over 5 decreases it.
As far as I know the wpf increading/decreasing on PD doesn't effect the damage or upkeep calculation.
Title: Re: 2 question for Paul
Post by: Paul on February 02, 2012, 08:56:06 pm
real_shot_speed = shoot_speed * sqrt((PD * 0.12) + 1.0) * 1.2 (PD capped at bow diff+4)

longbow, 6 PD:
v0 = real_shot_speed = 40 * sqrt((6 * 0.12) + 1.0) * 1.2 = 63 m/s

without friction and with assuming that starting height h0 = 0:
-> max range angle alpha = 45°

s_max = v0^2 * sin(2*45°) * 1/g
s_max = (63^2 /9.81) m  = 405m

Ingame friction lowers max range down to about 230m if I remember correctly.


Title: Re: 2 question for Paul
Post by: _Sebastian_ on February 02, 2012, 09:08:00 pm
Quote from: Paul on February 02, 2012, 08:56:06 pm
Ingame friction lowers max range down to about 220m if I remember correctly.
Do you know the formula for the air friction?
Title: Re: 2 question for Paul
Post by: Paul on February 02, 2012, 09:21:32 pm
No, but they prolly used Newton friction ( m*a = -m*g - c*v^2 ) instead of Stokes ( m*a = -m*g - k*v ) and thus an analytic solution of the differential equation isn't possible anyway afaik.

Edit:
Use this applet (http://www.pk-applets.de/phy/wurf/wurf.html) and put the LUFTWIDERSTAND(air friction) slider to the middle. 
Title: Re: 2 question for Paul
Post by: Cup1d on February 03, 2012, 06:54:03 pm
Quote from: Paul on February 02, 2012, 08:56:06 pm
real_shot_speed = shoot_speed * sqrt((PD * 0.12) + 1.0) * 1.2 (PD capped at bow diff+4)

longbow, 6 PD:
v0 = real_shot_speed = 40 * sqrt((6 * 0.12) + 1.0) * 1.2 = 63 m/s

without friction and with assuming that starting height h0 = 0:
-> max range angle alpha = 45°

s_max = v0^2 * sin(2*45°) * 1/g
s_max = (63^2 /9.81) m  = 405m

Ingame friction lowers max range down to about 230m if I remember correctly.

So, it's just another way to reduce range, projectile speed and overall arrow effectivity? Air Friction?
What about RL Air Friction? Longbow IRL witn RL Air Friction have range 300 meters. Why you choose «real life» projectile speed but replace «real life» air friction?
It's like manipulation with figures. IRL 2+3=5 but we appeal against 3 and substitute 3 with 1.2, just because you don't like this figure.

(You = balance team, nothing personal. You at last have temper to answer sometimes. Thank you for your time anyway).

And please, I wanna see your answer on first question. How PD interact with WPF and how this substandard wpfs works with weapon speed\projectile speed\precision\damage output etc...
Title: Re: 2 question for Paul
Post by: MeevarTheMighty on February 04, 2012, 01:39:37 am
While we're at it, does PS have the same requisite wpf as PD?

I've noticed super high PS builds (over 10) doing much less damage than balanced builds.
Title: Re: 2 question for Paul
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 04, 2012, 03:14:33 am
Quote from: MeevarTheMighty on February 04, 2012, 01:39:37 am
I've noticed super high PS builds (over 10) doing much less damage than balanced builds.

That is due to them having lower athletics and being unable to properly optimize their strike on the apex of the swing because the opponent has so much more.
Title: Re: 2 question for Paul
Post by: Zerran on February 04, 2012, 03:21:17 am
Quote from: MeevarTheMighty on February 04, 2012, 01:39:37 am
While we're at it, does PS have the same requisite wpf as PD?

I've noticed super high PS builds (over 10) doing much less damage than balanced builds.

Very easy to outmaneuver high strength builds. Especially using 1 and 2 directional weapons, you don't need to worry about moving to aid your own swings, so its possible to simply focus on screwing up the opponent's swings as much as possible. High ath is wonderful for this.
Title: Re: 2 question for Paul
Post by: MeevarTheMighty on February 04, 2012, 03:57:16 am
Yes, but two people standing still, one has maybe 200 wpf, 6 PS, the other has 100 wpf and 12 PS, the scrawny one seems to do more damage - does the wpf damage increase really have that much of an impact? It seems like there must be more to it than that.

In average gear on my highest PS character, it fairly consistently takes me 3 hits to kill an agi build in gambeson, though the damage calc gives an average value of 61 damage - more than his total hp.

This isn't very scientific, but I'll do some better tests if nobody knows about a low wpf penalty for melee.
Title: Re: 2 question for Paul
Post by: cmp on February 04, 2012, 03:53:56 pm
This is why formulas should be hardcoded, obfuscated and guarded with one's life.
Title: Re: 2 question for Paul
Post by: Leshma on February 04, 2012, 04:25:13 pm
I agree.
Title: Re: 2 question for Paul
Post by: _Sebastian_ on February 04, 2012, 07:43:38 pm
I made some test's about the max range with the cRPG- and Native air friction.

So I changed the arena map for the test, now it looks like this;
(click to show/hide)

I tested the mw longbow with 6PD and 10PD with the different friction values.
I shot about 60 arrows in different angles, to find the max range of each bow-setup(with air friction the angle is below 45°);
(click to show/hide)

Here are my results for the MW Longbow;
cRPG air friction = 0.003
43m/s +  6pd = 67.67m/s  max range = 243.4m
43m/s + 10pd = 76.54m/s  max range = 278.5m

Native air friction = 0.002
43m/s +  6pd = 67.67m/s  max range = 285.3m
43m/s + 10pd = 76.54m/s  max range = 332.4m

As you can see,
in cRPG you are not able to shot an arrow over ~278 meters with 10PD and a starting speed of 76.54m/s !
This is because of the air friction(0.003) which is not realistic for medieval arrows or bolts.

The air firction in native(0.002) seems to be more realistic, but it is still a little bit to high.
Also the missile speed of 76.54m/s is to high for a selfbow(one wood).

The range world record of a selfbow was shot by Chief AJmit with a 200pound yew-warbow, the range was 557m(with flight arrows).
And you know that the weight of a flight arrow is ca. 20 to 30 gramms.