cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: San on January 17, 2012, 03:13:48 am
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Great maul has some interesting properties, giving it both heavy advantages and disadvantages.
One of its disadvantages is its difficulty of use when solo. Even then, it has many things going for it: crushthrough, knockdown, etc.
However, I feel that its ability to be sheathed mitigates many of its disadvantages. Being sheathable is fine and dandy for most weapons, but when it helps you get in close range for unblockable attacks with a 1h+shield or top tier 2h/polearm, that's where I feel that it's a problem.
In my opinion, it should just be unsheathable. This won't affect dedicated users of this weapon at all. I could see the argument for 3 slots too, since it's a heavy boulder-like weapon.
I think if you decide to use a maul like this, you're dedicated to it just like a pike. It's hard to deny that it's one of the top support weapons, and I feel it's unfair to have an uber support and 1v1 weapon that you can switch between at will.
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Do lolhammers have disadvantages their silliness and unsportsmanship aside?
Yes, they are pretty short and slow but any idiot can do a few blocks (not really necessary if wearing heavy armor, otherwise it takes one or two blocks before you're close enough to connect at max), facehug and spam overheads until blockcrush (one or two hits). The only times I see a lolhammer fail is when completely overwhelmed or when wielded by a really inept player doing sideswings. This is easy mode weapon number one.
If something is finally done about it I'd rather see its chance of blockcrush decreased by 50%+.
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This is easy mode weapon number one.
Since it's such an easy mode weapon I'd invite anyone to use it and see it for themselves. Especially against the Grey/DRZ spamitar+shield wielders, I'd eat my hat if you win more then 20% of your "duels" against them & all similar to them. :wink:
I do, however, agree that it's a perfect support weapon just like pike and maybe (due to its weight) it should be made unsheathable, all heavy weapons should be impossible to sheath because how could one fight with that thing on his back ?
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I'd go with 3 slots and unsheathable. Way too deadly in the hands of a good player.
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I´d say 3 slots alone is fine.
So they can carry at least alittle sideweapon.
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Oh, someone got lolhammered did they? :?
I don't see that any change is needed now. It's already been nerfed three times already. The days of SUPERBEAST pulverising 10 people in a round are long gone.
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3 slots for this shit :D
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otherwise it takes one or two blocks before you're close enough to connect at max), facehug and spam overheads until blockcrush (one or two hits)
Angantyr, it's harder than that. Apart from pikers, almost all weapons can spam you/use the hilt to deal full damage on you. Hammers are shit in 1 vs. 1 against comptent players, but a great weapon for support or vs. bad players.
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Well, the short reach is relative. I use short swords, that are a bit longer, but most of the time i am not able to leave their killing zone.
I am fine with maul only users, but i can not stand the weapon switchers (i know it is an efficiency measure, but it looks a but arrogant to me).
Haa, a few times during my peasant stages some sword/maulers have switched to the hammer although i had only a practice shield. (this was before the shield 13 thing).
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Great Maul is not easy mode. In siege, yes it is very effective. Still I am not more effective with a great maul than with a German Greatsword, it is more fun though. In battle its not all that effective. Less close quarters combat, more pikes, more ranged/life. Don't forget to take into account that the thing is heavy, you move dirt slow with it.
Do lolhammers have disadvantages their silliness and unsportsmanship aside?
Yes, they are pretty short and slow but any idiot can do a few blocks (not really necessary if wearing heavy armor, otherwise it takes one or two blocks before you're close enough to connect at max), facehug and spam overheads until blockcrush (one or two hits). The only times I see a lolhammer fail is when completely overwhelmed or when wielded by a really inept player doing sideswings. This is easy mode weapon number one.
If something is finally done about it I'd rather see its chance of blockcrush decreased by 50%+.
Ahaahaha, go try it yourself, there is more to it than that. Decent players can spam you and will.
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I've tried fighting some guys on the duel server who had a great maul.
It's usually like this:
Block - overhead.
Or block until you're close enough, then overhead.
I don't think it's overpowered though. It's a specialist weapon and every weapon is deadly when wielded by a specialized player with a specialized build.
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I think the crappy range an speed on it all ready balance out the fact that it can crushrough you gotta have expert timing when using it plus against good players its almost impossible to get in range an land a hit..
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The point isn't whether the Great Maul is OP or not. The point is that you can effectively run a hybrid character without sacrificng any skills or wpf.
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The point isn't whether the Great Maul is OP or not. The point is that you can effectively run a hybrid character without sacrificng any skills or wpf.
Wait so its ok for polearms to have lets see here...
Pole stagger
Anti shield ability's
Horse rear
Huge ass variety in different weapons under the same wpf flag...
Lancers an pike´s comes to mind here.
But if somehow a 2h user decides to carry a 10k slow huge ass weight great maul as backup all hell brakes lose?
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Ahaahaha, go try it yourself, there is more to it than that. Decent players can spam you and will.
I would never talk out of my ass about a weapon I've never used. I've trained with and against lolhammers regularly in my clan in the two years+ I've played WB. If you don't think it is an easy weapon to use fair enough, but my personal experience has left me with a different impression. Too many times I've seen bad players excel as soon as they got a lolhammer in their hands.
A weapon where you only have to do overheads and get autokills after one or two hits just seem very silly to me.
Edit:
I'm not saying it is the overall most effective weapon or highly versatile or anything like that, mind you - that spot probably goes to the poleaxe or something similar - but ignoring blocks completely is a waste of a good melee system.
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Ahaahaha, go try it yourself, there is more to it than that. Decent players can spam you and will.
lol no, there isnt really more to it. you just WISH there was more to it. its not hard to move mouse up and down while running into a crowd.
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The days of SUPERBEAST pulverising 10 people in a round are long gone.
fail.
ive seen 15-1 score first round, lolhammer. you should play some more crpg dude.
i bet you are lolhammer user.
word
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Tried this thingy with stf char - 20\21, 6PS, 7ATHL, 154 wpf. To be honest it is more effective than I expected. Even in monks robe only.
Wanna try it with transitional armor..
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Make it 3 slot then.
Making it unsheatable is a big nerf for this weapon as the speed of the weapon affects how much time it takes you to make the block animation.
I know people hate crushthrough but try using one against everything not switching for a faster weapon when a 2her or some guy with a spamitar shows you will find out it's not so easy as you make it. If even swinging did crushthrough I would agree with you but only the overhead does.
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word
Don't spam post four times in a row, edit your posts.
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Angantyr, it's harder than that. Apart from pikers, almost all weapons can spam you/use the hilt to deal full damage on you. Hammers are shit in 1 vs. 1 against comptent players, but a great weapon for support or vs. bad players.
There is already at least one build that prevent me from outspamming it. RuConquista_Chronos used it in such fashion. Most likely it's related to some swing technique.
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Just wear a heavy plate and absorb one hit from the high-speed low/medium-damage weapon and insta-kill with that one overhead.
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It's not THAT easy-mode UNLESS you have your uber 1v1 fighting weapon with you that you can use at will. It was kind of ridiculous when I went in with my 1h+shield, switched to my maul to kill a shielder battling someone, then just switched back.
This won't affect dedicated users that enjoy the weapon. You can still find good weapons on the ground from defeated foes, too. I believe that you should just drop the maul.
I will be (ab)using this tactic on my 1 wpf 2h character so people will understand, not just whine and do nothing.
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Only thing I disagree with you on making it unsheatable is having to drop the weapon if you want to block from the ranged people with a shield else I wouldn't care.
Making it 3 slot tough would make it a primary weapon not a side arm while still being able to use a 0-1 slot shield to cover yourself if in danger.
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Make it unsheathable, but then many other weapons should be unsheathable too. At very least it should be 3 slots.
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It should stay sheathable, but should be 3 slots just like the long maul. It would balance the two weapons quite nicely.
Great maul is faster, does more damage and weighs more (higher chance of crushthrough)
Long maul is longer.
As someone who uses a long maul a lot, it's frustrating for me that a 2 hander can use an incredibly effective support weapon along with an incredibly effective dueling weapon. There's really no drawback.
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Ok ok so people saying great maul users who can switch to katana are op..
Ill play ball with you guise. even tho Great Maul had STR requirements raised from 18 to 20 and Speed reduced from 80 to 68.
Make it 3 slots but revert the rest??
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Great mauls are awful in 1v1 but very frightening in groups. I don't think they are OP, but they certainly are tricky to deal with.
I do agree that something should be done with them to stop the potential for "pocket mauls", primarily because they force such a different defense tactic. Generally when I fight someone I focus on feints/positioning and the usual back and forth, but once someone comes at me with a maul I immediately have to adjust to a spamming/footwork intensive situation. Being able to switch back and forth between "roles" is very powerful.
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Ok ok so people saying great maul users who can switch to katana are op..
Ill play ball with you guise. even tho Great Maul had STR requirements raised from 18 to 20 and Speed reduced from 80 to 68.
Make it 3 slots but revert the rest??
Great Maul
weight: 8
difficulty: 20
speed rating: 80
weapon length: 68
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 43 blunt
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Crushthrough
Unbalanced
Knockdown
What did you talk about?
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It's not THAT easy-mode UNLESS you have your uber 1v1 fighting weapon with you that you can use at will. It was kind of ridiculous when I went in with my 1h+shield, switched to my maul to kill a shielder battling someone, then just switched back.
This won't affect dedicated users that enjoy the weapon. You can still find good weapons on the ground from defeated foes, too. I believe that you should just drop the maul.
I will be (ab)using this tactic on my 1 wpf 2h character so people will understand, not just whine and do nothing.
So you made this thread because of what you experienced once, rather than what you've tested for several hours/days? You found an "advantage" (Using a great maul against baddies that don't realize they could just spam you) but didn't take a look at any disadvantages. You're a good 1her but using a great maul with 1 wpf is just asking to get spammed down. 80 speed 1 wpf is brutal, it's hard enough to not get spammed even at 100 effective wpf.
I use a 2h/1h hybrid build except 131 2h wpf and 89 1h wpf in heavy armor(26 weight in total). Nearly every 1her, regardless of their build, is going to be fast enough to spam through any of your swings, even if you turn into your swings. Which is interesting because most people seem to think the great maul is an anti-shielder weapon. I'd rather fight a great maul guy with a short fast weapon, than a long slow weapon; of course, that's the offensive method to doing it. Alternatively, you could go the defensive, high athletics, long range weapon route and just back-pedal spam.
When I spawn with my great maul + niuweidao, I don't use the maul against "skilled" 1hers or fast 2h/pole guys (Unless I'm being stubborn, in which case I get penalized for it quite a bit). My point is, the only thing a great maul, by itself(not paired with say, a long spearman) is good for, is sieges(only at certain key points) and quickly getting rid of unskilled players. Maybe with a level 34 21/21 build you'd be fast enough to neutralize your disadvantages by taking a second (and significantly longer range) weapon, but is this really a situation that should be considered?
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As me and other occitans used this weapon on battle (good times xD) for quite a while, i say it should simply be 3 slots but keep mallet and maul 2 slots. Great maul should be a dedicated weapon not a thing you magically pull out of ur pants in needed times. So keep it sheatable but make it 3 slots imo.
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Lancers an pike´s comes to mind here.
Pikes are 3 slot just fyi, as are long spears...
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The only thing OP with the Great Maul is its fear-factor.
When I wield my Mjölnir, 4 out of 5 players will panic and screw up.
The key is to keep calm, don't thrust or overhead the maul user, spam while watching out for side swings and if you're about to fail; kick-slash.
Or just perma-hold your S-key while spamming, Great Maul is really short and is easy to counter.
It's fine as it is.
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As me and other occitans used this weapon on battle (good times xD) for quite a while, i say it should simply be 3 slots but keep mallet and maul 2 slots. Great maul should be a dedicated weapon not a thing you magically pull out of ur pants in needed times. So keep it sheatable but make it 3 slots imo.
You guys are fine because I see most of you use great maul and only great maul when you do have one.
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Just give it STR req 25 or even higher. It's twice as heavy as a Flamberge.
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You guys are fine because I see most of you use great maul and only great maul when you do have one.
Thx lol but ya, most ppl use great maul as a side arm so 3 slots would fix it and allow dedicated great maulers to continue unaffected...
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summary: "nerf it like everything else. Until theres nothing left to nerf, no variety6 in game and I dont have to think about whether a weapon is longer or shorter, faster or slower, etc than what I have. Lets just all grab a stick and run naked and fight. Fun right?"
(Sorry for trolling, just tired of every good weapon, yes with advantages AND disadvantages, being nerfed. Latest patch is a good example...)
I LOVED the days when ppl could level 40+ and it took a mob to kill them. I dont want everyone to be EASY to kill, all using same weapons etc. We NEED variety and challenge in the game. So please, stop asking to water the game down... its about half as fun or less than it was before already. (And I never was the 40+ guy, I was always in the mob trying to kill that guy, which was a real thrill)
What one guy said above is absolutely correct:
The only thing OP with the Great Maul is its fear-factor.
When I wield my Mjölnir, 4 out of 5 players will panic and screw up.
The key is to keep calm, don't thrust or overhead the maul user, spam while watching out for side swings and if you're about to fail; kick-slash.
Or just perma-hold your S-key while spamming, Great Maul is really short and is easy to counter.
It's fine as it is.
If u don't know how to deal with it, ANYTHING can seem op. Pole, cav, shield, etc. But thats the FUN of the game... learn to counter it instead of complaining until it gets nerfed.
And dont fuss about Occtian. If they can get their junk together enough to roll in squads and kick tail, thats their intelligence showing. Don't punish them for playing well.
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If u wanna nerf such a slow , short 2 hander weapon?
Keep it 2 slots or if 3 make it better. All im saying.
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I use a great maul (sidearm) all the time for the purposes of quickly dispatching pikers and helping to take out shielders in crowds. I think it's fine where it is. It's short, very short; most every weapon you run up against will out-range it. It's also extremely slow; only two infantry weapons out there are slower. It is very easy to simply out-swing an overhead from a great maul. Hell, even the side swings are frequently out-swung. The only times that overhead can be hard to deal with are at choke-points in siege and in tightly-packed battle "blobs". But those are the perks for it being so damn short and slow, right?
If it were generally overpowered I could see your point, but it's not. It shouldn't be nerfed over situational utility. If we were to do that then why stop at great mauls? Lances are absurdly damaging on horseback...shields are amazing versus ranged and multiple opponents...etc etc.
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The only thing OP with the Great Maul is its fear-factor.
When I wield my Mjölnir, 4 out of 5 players will panic and screw up.
The key is to keep calm, don't thrust or overhead the maul user, spam while watching out for side swings and if you're about to fail; kick-slash.
Or just perma-hold your S-key while spamming, Great Maul is really short and is easy to counter.
It's fine as it is.
This as im an shielder with 1h i cant realy outrange without an risk.
I just spam left strike and when he does an right swing i wil block.
But the more expierenced maulers will delay the right swing and then feint into an overhead again.
If this happens depending on how fast you notice either spam suddenly make an weird movement either left right back or suddenly forward with your shield on or if you can just keep your block and after the hit spam again.
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Just give it STR req 25 or even higher. It's twice as heavy as a Flamberge.
However this seems logical to me.
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So you made this thread because of what you experienced once, rather than what you've tested for several hours/days? You found an "advantage" (Using a great maul against baddies that don't realize they could just spam you) but didn't take a look at any disadvantages. You're a good 1her but using a great maul with 1 wpf is just asking to get spammed down. 80 speed 1 wpf is brutal, it's hard enough to not get spammed even at 100 effective wpf.
I was using great maul + 1h and shield for around 2 days prior to making this topic, and came to this conclusion. It wasn't what I experienced once, it's something that helped me get ~20-3 on multiple maps where there weren't much of a cav threat. My use of the great maul only made me appreciate the dedicated maulers more, tbqh. Blocking is very slow, and even side swings can get spammed with only 1 wpf. But it was still pretty usable. Whenever I saw an archer or an opponent I couldn't defeat with the great maul, I could freely switch to my 1h+shield. That is where I think the problem is. I'm just happy not to experience what this weapon is capable of with a viable effective wpf.
I use a 2h/1h hybrid build except 131 2h wpf and 89 1h wpf in heavy armor(26 weight in total). Nearly every 1her, regardless of their build, is going to be fast enough to spam through any of your swings, even if you turn into your swings. Which is interesting because most people seem to think the great maul is an anti-shielder weapon. I'd rather fight a great maul guy with a short fast weapon, than a long slow weapon; of course, that's the offensive method to doing it. Alternatively, you could go the defensive, high athletics, long range weapon route and just back-pedal spam.
Agreed. But what I'm getting from this is that the great maul has legit disadvantages when used by itself. This is similar to many other heavy support weapons. Some people can jump away + swing to avoid you, too.
If great maul is unsheathable:
-You can still carry two sets of items.
-If you switch out of your great maul, you're not able to switch back until you pick it up. This gives you less flexibility when deciding to throw out your dueling 2h.
-Watch out for the enemy picking up that weapon, too if they're in a group against you.
3 slots, sheathable:
-You can carry a 1h or mace sidearm or just a shield
-You cannot use 1h+shield with this weapon
-Obviously, it stays with you the entire time.
Carrying another weapon guarantees you have a disadvantage against range. On my 1h+shield, I would just switch back from the maul when an archer even just looks at me.
I feel as though unsheathable is better, since 3 slots make you less useful in those 1v1 situations. Although if you're clever you can easily work with either these changes and a sidearm. I don't really want both since that will overnerf.
When I spawn with my great maul + niuweidao, I don't use the maul against "skilled" 1hers or fast 2h/pole guys (Unless I'm being stubborn, in which case I get penalized for it quite a bit). My point is, the only thing a great maul, by itself(not paired with say, a long spearman) is good for, is sieges(only at certain key points) and quickly getting rid of unskilled players. Maybe with a level 34 21/21 build you'd be fast enough to neutralize your disadvantages by taking a second (and significantly longer range) weapon, but is this really a situation that should be considered?
Great maul is good when paired with others with decent communication, preferably with a weapon that can produce something akin to polestagger. It forces the opponent to avoid rather than block, and can be unsettling even towards better players when you're with someone else.
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although I hate San (and every 1 who kills me) Im inclined to agree with him that 2hand crush weapon of that magnitude should be nerfed by 2 slots or even more speed. I also must suggest shielders be slowed down more when they hold down block button to compensate as well. Also to give ranged time to reposition.
Nerf that!
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No.
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Do not change this. Thank you.
I don't think it's overpowered though. It's a specialist weapon and every weapon is deadly when wielded by a specialized player with a specialized build.
3 slots weapon is acceptable.
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3 slots or the unsheathable sound good to me.
Both would be a bit over kill though.
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There are a couple reasons it should be 3 slots.
1. It allows the user to have the best of both worlds. You can carry a great support weapon along with a great dueling weapon.
2. It puts it way out of balance with the long maul, which is a similar weapon.
Let's compare:
Long Maul
weapon length: 125
weight: 7
difficulty: 18
speed rating: 70
weapon length: 125
thrust damage: 10 blunt
swing damage: 37 blunt
slots: 3
Can't use on horseback
Crushthrough
Unbalanced
Knockdown
Great Maul
weapon length: 68
weight: 8
difficulty: 20
speed rating: 80
weapon length: 68
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 43 blunt
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Crushthrough
Unbalanced
Knockdown
Great Maul has higher difficulty, but the Long Maul barely crushes through anything with only 18 str.
Great Maul is heavier which gives it a higher chance to crush through.
Great Maul is 10 speed faster which makes a big difference at such slow speeds.
Great Maul does 6 more damage.
Long Maul is 125 length and great maul is 68.
Now if we look at the lengths along with the animations, it comes out to this:
Long Maul
Overhead 125 - 15 = 110
Left Swing 125 - 7 = 118
Right Swing 125 - 2 = 123
Great Maul
Overhead 68 + 15 = 83
Left Swing 68 + 17 = 85
Right Swing 68 + 13 = 81
They're a bit closer than, but Long Maul still has the advantage length-wise. However, the longer length of the long maul gives it a shorter sweet spot. You need to be a certain distance away to reliably crush through. Since you can be closer with the Great Maul, that isn't much of an issue.
I'm not saying that each one should be nerfed or buffed, I just think that making them both 3 slots would bring them into balance. The each have their roles. I just find it odd that the Long Maul is 3 slots and the great Maul isn't.
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Secret special tactic, for skilled eyes only:
Swing, swing, swing swing, block if he's about to hit you with a side swing, otherwise keep swinging.
Murder in ganks though. I voted unsheathable.
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Mauls are totally over the top right now on Siege. Yesterday all of Occitan showed up on the NA Siege server and put two maulers at the top of every ladder, off to the side where they can't be engaged beyond the Maul's reach. I don't think anyone on attackers even SAW the flag.
I'm sure Battle is different (I never play it), but 1-2 maulers at the top of each ladder in Siege render the castle totally impenetrable. In the rare event you slip past the maulers, they just whip out 2H swords (the ideal 1v1 weapon).
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Mauls are totally over the top right now on Siege. Yesterday all of Occitan showed up on the NA Siege server and put two maulers at the top of every ladder, off to the side where they can't be engaged beyond the Maul's reach. I don't think anyone on attackers even SAW the flag.
Most of the time in siege, people don't understand the concept of line breaking either and like to diddle dally on top of the ladders.
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Mauls are totally over the top right now on Siege. Yesterday all of Occitan showed up on the NA Siege server and put two maulers at the top of every ladder, off to the side where they can't be engaged beyond the Maul's reach. I don't think anyone on attackers even SAW the flag.
I'm sure Battle is different (I never play it), but 1-2 maulers at the top of each ladder in Siege render the castle totally impenetrable. In the rare event you slip past the maulers, they just whip out 2H swords (the ideal 1v1 weapon).
This is exactly what the maul is for, and it should keep this kind of power, however it really needs to be more of a dedicated weapon. Should be 3 slots imo.
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It could be 3 slots, unsheathable and 30 difficulty and it wouldn't affect how I use it at all. :lol:
But as a habitual mauler, I'd say 3 slots sounds good.
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I feel the great maul is actually an acceptable weapon as long as you wear some heavier armor. The ability to also take an effective 2h into combat and not even have to pick the great maul back up after you get done with it is deadly.
On a side note, yesterday in battle we had 3 long mauls and 4 great mauls running around on the same team. Not many people could stand up anywhere near the 3 long mauls, I don't know how the great mauls did but 3 survived the round so I'd assume decent. Pretty funny when you see a guy in plate get knocked down by a horse and suddenly hammer time.
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only 1 answer to this predicament.
And god bless all you active members of the community for brining up mis-use of our beloved Crpg weapons...
Nerf the stats but keep it 2 slot... or Make it 3 slot but buff it up.... Would be fair justice overall.
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Too good in the hands of anyone who can block decently.
3 slots definitively.
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only 1 answer to this predicament.
And god bless all you active members of the community for brining up mis-use of our beloved Crpg weapons...
Nerf the stats but keep it 2 slot... or Make it 3 slot but buff it up.... Would be fair justice overall.
It certainly doesn't need a buff. I think changing it to three slots (and the mallet, too, for that matter) would be adequate.
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It certainly doesn't need a buff. I think changing it to three slots (and the mallet, too, for that matter) would be adequate.
Please read the whole comment before you make your replay Sir.
Making the weapon 3 slots which is pretty rough treatment for a 2hander with reach of less then half the 1handers,
would require a bit of compensation to the players who wield it. A buff I would agree to be in order if that would be the moderators decision.
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Please read the whole comment before you make your replay Sir.
Making the weapon 3 slots which is pretty rough treatment for a 2hander with reach of less then half the 1handers,
would require a bit of compensation to the players who wield it. A buff I would agree to be in order if that would be the moderators decision.
I did read the whole comment. My point is that it doesn't need a buff at all, even if it does get changed to three slots. I'm a two hander that uses the great maul and the mallet frequently. It's already a well balanced weapon that rewards teamwork, except that right now you can use it with any other two-slot two-hander. It's not meant to be a single man wrecking ball. It's analogous to the long spear for polearms. You're getting an excellent support weapon, but in return you have to rely on your teammates to help protect you. You can block just fine with it, and with proper footwork you stand a good chance at winning one-on-ones anyway.
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Making great maul 3 slot I can live with it but don't make 3 slot maul and mallet just because they can crush through... the other 2 need more strength (And looming it helps too) to be viable.
The problem of the great maul is that it is very heavy and thus no need to hold the swings to crush unlike mallet and maul.