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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: [ptx] on January 13, 2012, 02:41:12 pm

Title: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: [ptx] on January 13, 2012, 02:41:12 pm
The following is the probably highly biased opinion of a guy with a gen6 pure longbowman alt (had it since before the patch that implemented weight wpf penalty).

(click to show/hide)

So where does this leave longbows? An item of (masochistic) fashion? No thanks :(

So, what could be the use of longbows?
(click to show/hide)

Currently, at a 18/24 pure archer build, i can hold an arrow for less than a split second, barely long enough to release it without the reticule starting to grow, due to the delay.
What if, with a longbow (a WSE thing?), it would be possible to hold the arrow for a slightly longer time? Would this not enable it to once again be a niche anti-ranged bow?  :rolleyes:

Melee needn't worry, such a change should only reduce the amount of arrows in the air, both because longbows wouldn't have to spam their arrows and because they *possibly* might be killing enemy archers.

Opinions welcome, flame/troll is not :mad:
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: BlameMeForTheNoise on January 13, 2012, 03:29:12 pm
I can see your arguments behind this. And even if I haven't played an archer for a year, i think you are pretty convincing. :)
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Stabby_Dave on January 13, 2012, 04:31:58 pm
   0000059   3   Warband - multiplayer - [ingame]   minor   new   2012-01-11   Longbow delay

From the changelog. Maybe theyre removing or shortening the delay. Good news since I just created a longbow alt myself!
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: BlindGuy on January 13, 2012, 08:47:26 pm
I had a +3 longbow long before it got the P dmg vs all other bows on C. Even back then it was a fashion statement tbh, the accuracy being made useless by the delay. Be smart, sell the longbow if you want playing satisfaction. Or keep it in the hope it will be made 1 slot. It should be, since if you go DTV mode you will see the Searaiders sometimes carry Longbow, arrows, shield, sword. THATS a gear setup! :D
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: [ptx] on January 13, 2012, 09:26:53 pm
Playing satisfaction for me as an archer is playing with a longbow. I just hate the other bows.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Zerran on January 13, 2012, 09:49:55 pm
It would be really nice to see different bows be specifically tailored to certain jobs.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Zekerage on January 14, 2012, 06:22:29 am
I feel the longbow started its way downhill as soon as Arrows decided the damage type. Prior to, I'd run with a +3 Long bow with +3 Bodkins, 21/18. I was a terror on the field, and I feel that what gave me the edge was that it was the Only Pierce bow. It was extremely effective against armored targets (no more than 3 shots maximum, and that was only on Goretooth with his entire Black armor loomed set), and anything less than that took no more than two.

The slowness of the draw speed was balanced by the damage it could dish out. As it stands, All bows can now do pierce, all of the other bows can do respectable damage at a higher rate, all bows do less damage than they used to,  due to armor soak value changes (I think.. I'm a little fuzzy on this area), and with this new change to less damage to body shots, the Longbow is definitely going to be nothing more than a Novelty bow again.

At this point, I honestly don't know what could be done to make the Longbow viable again. I feel as though anything it can do, other bows can definitely do better. The suggestion to make you have more time to line up before shooting is moot, I feel, just because most archers are already comfortable "Snap" shotting. It'd be nice, but unless there's more than that, Other bows just do it better.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Konrax on January 14, 2012, 06:21:47 pm
Longbow should have a much higher projectile speed than the other bows imho.

It would make it worth the slower draw time since it would be easier to hit the target your aiming for once you release the arrow.

And it could actually hit targets further away. (Kinda like how they were IRL)
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Gurnisson on January 14, 2012, 06:37:00 pm
I find longbow a very good bow myself. I have an archer alt and I switch between horn bow and longbow all the time. The damage on the long bow is sweet. 8-)
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on January 14, 2012, 08:40:54 pm
Quote from: Konrax on January 14, 2012, 06:21:47 pm
Longbow should have a much higher projectile speed than the other bows imho.

It would make it worth the slower draw time since it would be easier to hit the target your aiming for once you release the arrow.

And it could actually hit targets further away. (Kinda like how they were IRL)
I like this idea, it's a LONG bow.

Also, I think the long bow, being heavily used vs cavalry should be maybe more effective vs horses in some way rather than people. Random idea.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Stabby_Dave on January 15, 2012, 12:23:31 am
I like the idea of it being a horse killer, I almost exclusively use my longbow alt as a cav hunter.

The other thing you could do, if it were possible, is to allow the longbow to use an exclusive ammo type maybe (2 pierce) but be a bit slower to really make it stand out as a cannon.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Zekerage on January 15, 2012, 04:24:26 am
So.. Just kinda reverting it to what it Was prior to Arrow deciding damage type? Slow Tank Puncher? Except now it would do the same thing.. But even slower.. As for cav hunting, that's what All bowmen should be doing! Ughhhh, archers!
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Teeth on January 15, 2012, 12:08:26 pm
I always support a non linear progression of weapons. The old more cost/more/damage/less speed formula is getting old. More roles on the battlefield and more unique weapons, yay!
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: B3RS3RK on January 15, 2012, 01:54:33 pm
Im thinking a lot more missile speed would do the longbow good.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Rumblood on January 15, 2012, 08:06:51 pm
If you adjust the missile speed on the long bow, it will naturally increase the accuracy over a long distance which is exactly the effect we want. The target would have less time to react after the shot. This wouldn't create an imbalance up close due to already long draw time.

In short, increase missile speed and longbow is back to its niche.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Konrax on January 15, 2012, 08:30:14 pm
The increase in missile speed needs to be tested so the speed bonus on it doesn't make it a super canon.

Aside from a bit of balancing on the damage (which is good atm) I would like to see it hit targets much faster and at farther ranges.

This would give it some much needed love for its price and make it a viable alternative to all the other bows.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Okkam on January 15, 2012, 09:30:43 pm
Quote from: Konrax on January 15, 2012, 08:30:14 pm
The increase in missile speed needs to be tested so the speed bonus on it doesn't make it a super canon.

Aside from a bit of balancing on the damage (which is good atm) I would like to see it hit targets much faster and at farther ranges.

This would give it some much needed love for its price and make it a viable alternative to all the other bows.

Actually, this work opposite way. Slowest projectile receive more benefits from speed bonus. Don't you remember «big commotion in a melee kindergarten» when balance team nerfed arrows speed?

On the other hand, devs someway hacked this speed\damage engine dependance, so we have slow projectiles but bad speed bonus now.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Arrowblood on January 15, 2012, 09:37:04 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Paul on January 15, 2012, 09:37:50 pm
Quote from: Okkam on January 15, 2012, 09:30:43 pm
On the other hand, devs someway hacked this speed\damage engine dependance, so we have slow projectiles but bad speed bonus now.

wat? making shit up like a kesh?
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Rumblood on January 15, 2012, 09:45:42 pm
Quote from: Konrax on January 15, 2012, 08:30:14 pm
The increase in missile speed needs to be tested so the speed bonus on it doesn't make it a super canon.

Aside from a bit of balancing on the damage (which is good atm) I would like to see it hit targets much faster and at farther ranges.

This would give it some much needed love for its price and make it a viable alternative to all the other bows.

Speed bonus would be only slightly more damaging at non-adjusted speeds, but at adjusted speeds vs cavalry for example, the speed bonus would decrease for the long bow if you increase missile speed.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: [ptx] on January 15, 2012, 10:40:40 pm
I was actually hoping for more feedback on MY suggestion :(
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Gurnisson on January 15, 2012, 10:54:45 pm
ptx, it got +1 accuracy in this patch
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on January 16, 2012, 07:54:09 am
That one point does nothing really :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: [ptx] on January 16, 2012, 08:41:32 am
Quote from: Gurnisson on January 15, 2012, 10:54:45 pm
ptx, it got +1 accuracy in this patch
OH YAY +1 ACCURACY.

Well, /care. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on January 16, 2012, 11:32:17 am
it is still more or less a luckshot to hit someone's head on distance with the longbow :rolleyes:

+1 accuracy is useless
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Gurnisson on January 16, 2012, 12:02:39 pm
So much rage. still topping scoreboard with my archer alt with a long bow. it was good before, it still is. Fucking whiners don't appreciate anything
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on January 16, 2012, 12:04:21 pm
I don't say, that I can't kill anyone anymore or whatever, but +1 accuracy is like nothing. ;)
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: BlindGuy on January 16, 2012, 01:53:44 pm
Quote from: Gurnisson on January 16, 2012, 12:02:39 pm
So much rage. still topping scoreboard with my archer alt with a long bow. it was good before, it still is. Fucking whiners don't appreciate anything
We are talking when you fight OTHER PEOPLE: we all top the scoreboard when we play alone mate.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Zerobot1 on January 20, 2012, 05:04:11 pm
Just wanted to ask, on the website long/rus bows are listed with 103 or 102 accuracy, in game on mouse over it says 100 accuracy for both of them.

Is this just a superficial problem and has it always been like this? I can't remember for the life of me.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: [ptx] on January 20, 2012, 06:20:11 pm
Apparently that is just a display problem. My suggestion still stands, though.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Zerobot1 on January 20, 2012, 06:45:33 pm
You are right, longbow needs something extra to make it more viable.

It is useful though, I take longbow and tatars mainly to bring down horses.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: _Sebastian_ on January 20, 2012, 07:46:59 pm
What the longbow needs is just a little speed buff like 2 or 3 points.
It is pretty slow compared to the other bows... no balance.

The speedbuff also would remove the shot delay of the longbow.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Rumblood on January 21, 2012, 03:11:11 am
Quote from: _Sebastian_ on January 20, 2012, 07:46:59 pm
What the longbow needs is just a little speed buff like 2 or 3 points.
It is pretty slow compared to the other bows... no balance.

The speedbuff also would remove the shot delay of the longbow.

No. The draw speed should remain the same. What I am talking about is increasing the missile speed to 45. That will make the arrow fly in a straighter flight path and take less time to arrive at its target, thus giving it an accuracy increase at distance without buffing accuracy at shorter ranges.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on January 21, 2012, 11:04:12 am
As said in the othe thread, in my opinion the longbow's accuracy is fine, as long as you shoot immediately.
Aiming for a second and your reticule is bigger than your target.
With a speedbuff that might chance because you would have drawn faster, thus the time until the reticule grows would be bigger.

I didn't recognise any difference with my longbow now and it was always accurate enough.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: [ptx] on January 21, 2012, 01:11:00 pm
Hence my suggestion of lengthening the time you can hold your arrow with a longbow. No speed increase, in fact it lets you spam your arrows less with it, which, imho, is the way longbow should be. If you want to spam arrows - go hornbow.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on January 21, 2012, 01:19:36 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on January 21, 2012, 01:11:00 pm
Hence my suggestion of lengthening the time you can hold your arrow with a longbow. No speed increase, in fact it lets you spam your arrows less with it, which, imho, is the way longbow should be. If you want to spam arrows - go hornbow.

If you can raise the time you have for aiming I'm pleased. But I don't how this could be done. Not with +1 accuracy, that's clear^^
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: [ptx] on January 21, 2012, 01:24:18 pm
A thing called WSE, i imagine. cmp told us that EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE :shock:
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on January 21, 2012, 04:41:58 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on January 21, 2012, 01:24:18 pm
A thing called WSE, i imagine. cmp told us that EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE :shock:

You believe it?^^
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Trikipum on January 24, 2012, 04:20:22 pm
Quote from: Konrax on January 14, 2012, 06:21:47 pm
Longbow should have a much higher projectile speed than the other bows imho.

It would make it worth the slower draw time since it would be easier to hit the target your aiming for once you release the arrow.

And it could actually hit targets further away. (Kinda like how they were IRL)
Stop showing your ignorance please. First, longbows shoot arrows at the same speed than other comparable bows like asian composites. Also, the draw requirements for composites are higher, and last, longbows havent any advantage when you talk about range. Actually the bows with the most range werent english but turkish... and composite!. Amazing huh?. To bad you brain is taken but that anglo saxon shitty propaganda. I bet you also say "P51s won the WW2" dont you?. Salute.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Konrax on January 24, 2012, 05:00:48 pm
Quote from: Trikipum on January 24, 2012, 04:20:22 pm
Stop showing your ignorance please. First, longbows shoot arrows at the same speed than other comparable bows like asian composites. Also, the draw requirements for composites are higher, and last, longbows havent any advantage when you talk about range. Actually the bows with the most range werent english but turkish... and composite!. Amazing huh?. To bad you brain is taken but that anglo saxon shitty propaganda. I bet you also say "P51s won the WW2" dont you?. Salute.

The longbow had between 110 and 120 pounds of draw force. You don't really get that in any other bow, even modern ones.

Hence why it took many years of training for a person to be able to use such a bow, and how they can tell ancient skeletons were longbowmen.

History aside, the more power the shot has the faster it will go, its physics. It will also hit with more power but a portion of the force will be translated into an increase of speed. Even most modern compound bows can't fire with that much power, in fact its special order to get a bow made with a poundage that is comparable to a long bow.

There were other bows in history that were comparable, but they were generally smaller profile like re-curve bows which are significantly more powerful if taking into a size/power ratio.

What was the draw weight of these other bows you speak of?
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: [ptx] on January 24, 2012, 06:59:45 pm
Realism board is that way. (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/board,69.0.html)
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Trikipum on January 24, 2012, 08:46:05 pm
Quote from: Konrax on January 24, 2012, 05:00:48 pm
The longbow had between 110 and 120 pounds of draw force. You don't really get that in any other bow, even modern ones.

Hence why it took many years of training for a person to be able to use such a bow, and how they can tell ancient skeletons were longbowmen.

History aside, the more power the shot has the faster it will go, its physics. It will also hit with more power but a portion of the force will be translated into an increase of speed. Even most modern compound bows can't fire with that much power, in fact its special order to get a bow made with a poundage that is comparable to a long bow.

There were other bows in history that were comparable, but they were generally smaller profile like re-curve bows which are significantly more powerful if taking into a size/power ratio.

What was the draw weight of these other bows you speak of?
In the moment you relate "pull force" and "proyectile speed" you show how little you know about the subject. You should research a bit and come. Needing 120lbs of force to pull a string in a bow doesnt mean it will shoot any further than a bow that may need 95lb for the same result. Its called enginering, and its why romans had those nice engines that lead them to build those nice buildings with little effort compared to what it could be if they did manually.

A person who can pull 120lbs in a longbow (still have to see some, also take in acount that the poundage you heard about the longbow is kinda an asumption, no one really knows. Also take in acount that europeans were much smaller 600 years ago and that bows where made for individuals for the most) may pull 95lbs from a mongol bow, yet the tests show that a mongol bow will pierce 3cm more with the same "neddle" arrow with the same "longbow expert" pulling both strings. I talk about flat shooting from 5 metters. That leads me to think that the mongol bow actually has faster proyectile speed if any. And no, the bows you are talking about arent the "re-curved" ones but "reflex" ones which happens also to be "re-curved" bows.. Also the bow i was talking about was the turkish composite reflex bow. Those are the bows with world's record range and were made in all flavours, from 70lbs to even 150lbs (again, same that with the english longbow, only monsters can pull that). So lets say the average pull force for a longbow is about 90lbs, same for the others. And, the distance record for that turkish bow is over 800 metters and the battle range was between 400-600 yards.....
Too fun you say you dont get that pull force with any other bow when turkish were doing more powerfull bows with x10 the enginering at the exact same period of time lol... you see what i mean with propaganda?....
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Trikipum on January 24, 2012, 09:03:55 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on January 24, 2012, 06:59:45 pm
Realism board is that way. (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/board,69.0.html)
Ok man, dont get mad. Ill try to give some ideas about bows to make them a new "metagame".
-Bows arent more or less acurate. What dictates the acuracy in old bows is the arrow and the shooter. There isnt a "more acurate" bow. So, the acuracy should be moved to the arrows.
-Using the WSE, they should make tables for each kind of arrow and distance. Yes, that is each arrow should have its own table with values for penetration of diferent materials at diferent distances.
-Another step would be taging all the armor items in game. We need to make sure each arrow type isnt just more powerfull but more suitable for each target. A bodkin arrow has to make less damage than a tatar for a naked target, that is how it works in real life and i put it as example. The arrow that makes a mess in a naked human body wont make that same effect in chain mail. Also the bodkin arrow that hits and pierces a plate armor wont be as bad with a naked target.
-Total damage shouldnt be dependant on power draw but with caps for each kind of bow. I mean, you can be the hulk, but you wont draw more than X amount of force for a certain bow coz its physically imposible. Yes a guy pulling 120lbs wont pull more than 90-95 with a hornbow.
In few words, damage shouldnt be dictated by power draw, but by the bow, kind of arrow used and kind of target. I think its doable and would make archery amazing. Choosing your target, then choosing the kind of arrow for that target and then shooting is how it should work, not just blind pew pew. I think this all is doable using the WSE and would end with all the rage about archery nerfs and shit.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on January 25, 2012, 09:22:30 am
I was thinking given the latest patch (I know they are working to remedy the poopants that has occured) perhaps the thing to do with the Long bow is knock 2 more points of speed off and buff its dmg to 38. Make it more of a pure archers weapon.

Give those 21/21 fundies something worth playing with.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: MeevarTheMighty on January 30, 2012, 08:50:55 am
The Rus Bow is recurved much more strongly, it seems odd that it does less damage with the same draw weight. One solution is to increase Longbow difficulty and raise the projectile speed and damage stats to suit a bow with 7 or 8 difficulty.

I think the damage distribution has to be repaired before longbow can contest 1 slot bows though. A headshot from a longbow at the moment will kill with ease and all the extra damage is wasted. Obviously there is much less wastage with 1 slot bows and they will have an easier time getting headshots to begin with.
Title: Re: Finding a niche for longbow
Post by: Stabby_Dave on January 30, 2012, 09:34:00 am
Quote from: Trikipum on January 24, 2012, 09:03:55 pm
Ok man, dont get mad.

Quote from: Trikipum on January 24, 2012, 04:20:22 pm
Stop showing your ignorance please. To bad you brain is taken but that anglo saxon shitty propaganda. I bet you also say "P51s won the WW2" dont you?. Salute.

 :?