cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Torben on December 30, 2011, 02:53:28 pm

Title: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Torben on December 30, 2011, 02:53:28 pm
long story short:

make the cav charge possible by removing rearing and greatly increasing the speed bonus damage a horse takes,  whilst armored horses get a larger chance that the weapons bounce off and do no damage.


this would mean an unarmored horse never surviving a frontal stab at medium-high speeds,  an armored horse either taking no damage or a substantial amount of damage.

(maybe introduce horse rearing at extremely low speeds.)

 
edited two mistakes
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Kafein on December 30, 2011, 03:07:00 pm
I'd personally like the horses at low speed to be more realistic. Ever wondered why many police forces have a mounted section for crowd control ? Because when a horse goes in your direction, no matter it's speed, you move. The horse doesn't magically stop because you stand in front of him. Note that in the following video we see horses that aren't trained for war at all, and completely unarmored. Their cRPG's nearest equivalent is probably sumpter horses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcZoqQBpxU4&feature=related

However, current rearing of polearms if fine by me.
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on December 30, 2011, 03:14:38 pm
I like the idea but its a bit hard to balance :/ I reckon for this to work you should be able to 'couch' the longer polearms such as pikes, this would provide the damage needed to kill a charging plated horse as well as allowing multiple pikes to take out say double the amount of horses charging. This along with so many other balances...

on a side note, shortened spear should rear horses :P
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Thomek on December 30, 2011, 08:05:52 pm
yeah remove rearing and give pikes a damage bonus against horses.

As a pikeman, either you hit, or you dead. No rearing. On the other hand, if you hit, that horse GOES DOWN.
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Torben on December 30, 2011, 08:16:11 pm
(click to show/hide)


nice to see a dedicated inf support the idea
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Glyph on December 30, 2011, 08:33:59 pm
good idea, your horse should be dead or unharmed yes, way better then you horse stops and you get ganked by 5 or more inf. this would probably also increase the number of times that inf try to hit the rider instead of the horse itself, because you have less chance to kill an armored horse.
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Torben on December 30, 2011, 08:47:24 pm
your horse should be dead or unharmed

stop twisting facts
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Overdriven on December 30, 2011, 08:49:41 pm
Interesting idea. It might at least make heavy cavalry charges a bit more viable :)
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Glyph on December 30, 2011, 09:31:47 pm
because if you try to charge at enemies on horseback, even with loads of horses your gonna get clusterfucked when your horse is down, just like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8ABQ1PPCNo
while a cav charge should result in something more like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0l-iZrpLbI
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Torben on December 30, 2011, 09:36:51 pm
...
the first line of horses not rearing but dieing to the stab will let the following horses ride through instead of bumping into reared horses.  better gaming experience.
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Glyph on December 30, 2011, 09:39:56 pm
the first line of horses not rearing but dieing to the stab will let the following horses ride through instead of bumping into reared horses.  better gaming experience.
yeah, that's what i'm trying to say.
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Dezilagel on December 30, 2011, 09:40:11 pm
because if you try to charge at enemies on horseback, even with loads of horses your gonna get clusterfucked when your horse is down, just like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8ABQ1PPCNo
while a cav charge should result in something more like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0l-iZrpLbI

Why?
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Glyph on December 30, 2011, 09:45:05 pm
Why?
cav should be running trough a mass of cav(of get f*cked by it), not be stopped and then finished off. why? because that's how it is in real life.

PAUL IS HERE!
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Dezilagel on December 30, 2011, 09:47:55 pm
cav should be running trough a mass of cav(of get f*cked by it), not be stopped and then finished off. why? because that's how it is in real life.

PAUL IS HERE!

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/board,69.0.html

There you go mate.
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Glyph on December 30, 2011, 09:50:49 pm
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/board,69.0.html

There you go mate.
if a suggestion is balanced and realistic, it should be here, so no, it shouldn't be in the realism section. it's better for realism and for the gameplay, so why not?

Paul, you've been in here for way to long without saying anything :)
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Dezilagel on December 30, 2011, 09:55:22 pm
if a suggestion is balanced and realistic, it should be here, so no, it shouldn't be in the realism section. it's better for realism and for the gameplay, so why not?

Once again, why? How the hell is cav just riding through killing everything "better for gameplay"?

Maybe if you're a lamer who wants your class to be totally OP so you can get free kills without effort or skill investment?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Glyph on December 30, 2011, 09:57:39 pm
Once again, why? How the hell is cav just riding through killing everything "better for gameplay"?

Maybe if you're a lamer who wants your class to be totally OP so you can get free kills without effort or skill investment?

(click to show/hide)
no, what i'm saying is i'd rather die then be stopped in a gay way and get clusterfucked, that's what i'm saying, not that cav wants to be OP, BTW i'm not cav, i was. so don't go talking about things you don't know of rager.
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Dezilagel on December 30, 2011, 10:00:32 pm
no, what i'm saying is i'd rather die then be stopped in a gay way and get clusterfucked, that's what i'm saying, not that cav wants to be OP, BTW i'm not cav, i was. so don't go talking about things you don't know of rager.

Random insults are always win.

And no I don't agree with you here since the rearing is one of the few ways you can combat cav *rapetrains* as infantry.
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Glyph on December 30, 2011, 10:03:39 pm
Random insults are always win.

And no I don't agree with you here since the rearing is one of the few ways you can combat cav *rapetrains* as infantry.
no they don't, as i just showed you. but i don't want to go in an endless disscussion with you so i'll stop.

if you kill them instantly, you don't need to fight them, and if your hit wasn't good enough, he will ride along without a fight, so you don't hev to figth them anymore. problem solved
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Dezilagel on December 30, 2011, 10:07:22 pm
no they don't, as i just showed you. but i don't want to go in an endless disscussion with you so i'll stop.

if you kill them instantly, you don't need to fight them, and if your hit wasn't good enough, he will ride along without a fight, so you don't hev to figth them anymore. problem solved

1. You didn't show me anything.

2. I really have no idea of what you're trying to say here.
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Torben on December 30, 2011, 10:07:56 pm
(click to show/hide)

so horses dieing to your stab immediately is not within your willing?
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Dezilagel on December 30, 2011, 10:10:12 pm
so horses dieing to your stab immediately is not within your willing?

No, because as I said, then there would be little that can stop cav rapetrains. And besides, I think that if you ride a heavy horse, you should have at least a shot at getting away even if you're hit.

And also, how'd you balance this concerning heavy/light horses? If everything one-shots your horse then why would you want a heavy, slow horse at all? If you'd make it a gamble no dmg/heavy damage then people would just ride around slowly on armored horses and bumpslash everyone to death - a style of play that is already too effective imo since you can't be reared really if going slow enough with an armored enough horse.
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Torben on December 30, 2011, 10:31:27 pm
(click to show/hide)

hm,  my suggestion has its shortcomings,  true dat...

probably goes along the line of altering the game balance too much.   hopefully you understand that i am not trying to buff cav but to give it a different role in the game.  if the rearing was kept for slow riding,  it would work out tho right? 

Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Dezilagel on December 30, 2011, 10:36:58 pm
hm,  my suggestion has its shortcomings,  true dat...

probably goes along the line of altering the game balance too much.   hopefully you understand that i am not trying to buff cav but to give it a different role in the game.  if the rearing was kept for slow riding,  it would work out tho right?

Yes, ofc I understand that (you're sensible), I was pointing out the stuff I didn't see a solution to.

Personally, I think cav rearing is fine and should not be mesed with too much. The only things I think is bullshit is when you hit the invisible hitboxes of trees and stuff, but that's really a minor issue.
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Tor! on December 30, 2011, 11:30:20 pm
So a chance of a horse taking no dmg at all, and not rearing. Boom, infantryman dead, no skill involved. More random factors to the game doesnt help.
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on December 30, 2011, 11:42:21 pm
LEAVE HORSE REARING ALONE YOU DEVIL WORSHIPERS!

Its fucking boss, I love jamming on the air brakes as some one tries to ride me down or dodging a perfectly shot arrow by slamming into an invisible wall.

STOP KILLING FUN YOU FUN KILLERS!
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Thomek on December 31, 2011, 01:21:42 am
Tor no randomness involved.

If you hit with the pike, it goes down.

Thing is that cav should more easily go down TO THE RIGHT WEAPONS, But since there are usually limited amount of pikes, usually 1 in a group, several cav charging in concentrated shape should make sure most of them survive. Making a train with time for the piker to make several hits won't do it. They would have to hit group at almost the same moment.

Of course, nerf maneuverability to balance out the buff. 
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Torben on December 31, 2011, 01:36:02 am
So a chance of a horse taking no dmg at all, and not rearing. Boom, infantryman dead, no skill involved. More random factors to the game doesnt help.

i just called it "chance"  cause i dont know anything about armor soak and whatnot,  i mean its either a glance or good damage on an armored horse,  and either death or life for unarmored horses.
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Thomek on December 31, 2011, 01:37:49 am
This could of course also be achieved without removing rearing, just make a special damage bonus against horses for pikes/ashwood pikes only.
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Kafein on December 31, 2011, 02:36:42 am
No, because as I said, then there would be little that can stop cav rapetrains.

IMO cav "rapetrains" shouldn't be easy to stop. Just like a group of archers camping together and watching each other's ass is hard to attack. Besides, they are called "charges" and not "rapetrains".


Currently, all the horses, from light to heavy, are sort of the same. Everything is about catching people unaware, even with a tank horse. I'd like to keep it that way with light horses, but change the role of heavy horses.

Heavy horses should be made for charges. But because in the game we deal with extremely small scale skirmishes, there is little point in charging the back or flanks of a "formation" because there usually are no formations. So every charge translates into a front charge, with the enemy aware and probably ready. Here's where the horse rearing destroys the gameplay. A charge should mean chaos in the enemy blob. But if the horses make a dead stop in front of it, no chaos is going to happen.

So I'd like horses not to stop, even if they are catched by a pike. If we could mod it, the best would be making the rider drop from the horse because of the inertia, suffering heavy damage and let the horse continue without rider at a slower pace, through the enemy group.

Of course, most light horses should die instantly when crashing into a pike. To balance it out, their maneuver (and maybe speed) should be upped. Buffing light horses maneuver will also help increasing their anti-cav strengths and make up for the general lack of any inertia or realistic "maneuver" applied to humans, especially with the current agi trend. Heavy horses, on the other hand, shouldn't die to a single pike hit. However, they are not made for killing the unaware or the lonely pixie, so their maneuver should be lower than now.

So basically, increase the differences between horses.
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Aljo on December 31, 2011, 04:58:45 am
Tor no randomness involved.

If you hit with the pike, it goes down.

Thing is that cav should more easily go down TO THE RIGHT WEAPONS, But since there are usually limited amount of pikes, usually 1 in a group, several cav charging in concentrated shape should make sure most of them survive. Making a train with time for the piker to make several hits won't do it. They would have to hit group at almost the same moment.

Of course, nerf maneuverability to balance out the buff.


One big blablabla. So you get the pikes OP in that way, gj.

You want pikes to make some super extra damage to horses, make em a breakable item. Like ingame breakable.
Want it bit more realistic, here you go. That's as real as it gets if you hit a horse. Pike breaks.
(click to show/hide)

+1
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Glyph on December 31, 2011, 09:37:33 am

One big blablabla. So you get the pikes OP in that way, gj.

You want pikes to make some super extra damage to horses, make em a breakable item. Like ingame breakable.
Want it bit more realistic, here you go. That's as real as it gets if you hit a horse. Pike breaks.
(click to show/hide)

+1
pikes would be buffed like that yes, but with their 3 slots they are still not viable for most people. not breakable, then you'd lose 3 of your 4 slots if your pike breaks
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: dodnet on December 31, 2011, 10:27:53 am
I'm cav and I wouldn't mind some change on how cav is handled. Which bugs me most at the moment is that a lot of 2h outreaches me easily and a polearm from the side which I almost passed rears my horse which is totally annoying and unrealistic. It has to be balanced out ofc to prevent cav be more powered than now.

So I'd like horses not to stop, even if they are catched by a pike. If we could mod it, the best would be making the rider drop from the horse because of the inertia, suffering heavy damage and let the horse continue without rider at a slower pace, through the enemy group.

But keep in mind that with that change you are definitely dead as cav is your horse gets down because at the moment almost every time a rider gets dehorsed he catches 1-x hits until even getting up.
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Ujin on December 31, 2011, 11:09:13 am
I don't like this idea but i'm too lazy to explain why, so i'm just gonna go through this topic later and +1 people whom i agree with. Thank god for +1s.
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: BADPLAYERold on December 31, 2011, 11:36:44 am
I kinda like the idea of horses not being reared and instead just taking more more damage from melee. However you seem to only want this to buff heavy cav, which currently is the most easy no skill class in the game and out of every class it is the one that least needs a buff.
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Torben on December 31, 2011, 11:44:09 am
I kinda like the idea of horses not being reared and instead just taking more more damage from melee. However you seem to only want this to buff heavy cav, which currently is the most easy no skill class in the game and out of every class it is the one that least needs a buff.

i never ride heavy horses so that is not my intention.  i want to change the gameplay a bit.  make frontal cavcharges possible without the second row being stopped by the first rows reared horses.  make light cav more of an anti-cav weapon.  give the possibility of being a true formation breaker whilst increasing the chance of being dehorsed and dieing
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on December 31, 2011, 12:53:12 pm
I think torben is arguing is that there is no random chance with horses, its just with the heavier you need to just make a hit that shouldnt normally glance to bring it down. There is no 'random' chance, its more of a case of whether you can have the skill to hit the horse dead centre and killing it rather than getting a vague, weak hit that rears the horse.

The advantage of using a heavy horse would be its increased hp to arrows etc. You'd have to find a way to make polearms better vs horses than any other weapon, my suggestion is the ability to couch a polearm on the ground. This would be quite good for spear walls, could mean just a few lined pikes could down a large amount of horses. I dont find heavy horses particularly op atm anyway, I fear an intelligent cav player on a courser or arabian far more than on a cataphract. Heavy horses are just not cost effective if you can play a strong light horseman game...
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Joelturuz on December 31, 2011, 02:18:20 pm
I think this would be quite nice addition to Strategus, as horses are something that's quite expensive. But for normal matches, well, I'm not so sure. Perhaps it could be tested out.
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Aljo on December 31, 2011, 05:48:20 pm
I kinda like the idea of horses not being reared and instead just taking more more damage from melee. However you seem to only want this to buff heavy cav, which currently is the most easy no skill class in the game and out of every class it is the one that least needs a buff.

Heavy cav= LOTS OF REPAIRS
You dont get the money by being useless  :rolleyes:

On a side note, light and heavy cav need to be more different. Their roles should be completely different, so some balancing should be done.

Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Tomas on December 31, 2011, 09:59:37 pm
I think the aims of the idea are good although on its own the idea is unbalanced.

To balance it out i think it needs a few extras
1) People holding their pikes ready should suffer reduced movement & turning speeds.   This is so that individual pikeman don't get buffed too much, only pike formations.  This is fair since the aim of the idea is to buff cav formations/charges and not individual cav.
2) Armoured horses need a slight manueverability nerf.  I'm only talking 1 - 3 points here but again this is to make sure individual cav are not overly buffed and it also makes sure the movement impared pikeman still have a chance.  It also gives light cav a greater advantage over heavy cav allowing them to better perform their new role as anti cav.
3) Finally a 50% chance that if you deal over 50 damage with a piercing weapon you will be disarmed and get stunned for a second.  Think of it as your weapon getting stuck in whatever you hit but in game it means your weapon ends up on the floor at your feet.  It can be picked up again but you get delayed a second.  This will just buy dismounted cav an extra second to get up if their horse gets killed and it will mean pike formations will need to have other infantry in them to kill off the disounted Cav.  Cav need to think they have a chance if they get downed otherwise the charges will turn into a competition as to who doesn't end up at the front.  It will also stop all cav endlessly lancing unaware enemies so it works both ways and is realistic.
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Dehitay on December 31, 2011, 10:59:03 pm
So what some people want is an end to rearing for heavy cav, and in exchange they would be willing to accept slower speed for their horses. If that one post was correct about heavy cav at slow speeds not getting reared, wouldn't this all be solved if we just changed the speed on heavy cav to 15? Or better yet, just don't go at full speed so no extra work is involved. Can anybody actually verify that heavy armored horses don't rear at low speeds when hit with pointy sticks?
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: Kafein on January 01, 2012, 02:41:43 am
So what some people want is an end to rearing for heavy cav, and in exchange they would be willing to accept slower speed for their horses. If that one post was correct about heavy cav at slow speeds not getting reared, wouldn't this all be solved if we just changed the speed on heavy cav to 15? Or better yet, just don't go at full speed so no extra work is involved. Can anybody actually verify that heavy armored horses don't rear at low speeds when hit with pointy sticks?

If the pointy stick glances, I don't think the horse rears. So for most uber armored horses, going very slowly helpls preventing that. But anyway there is no point in going slowly if the problem is being gangbanged by inf when you are immobilised. If you go slowly enough to avoid horse rearing, then you go slowly enough for all the inf guys to land a hit on you.
Title: Re: Twist to cav gameplay, any dev want to comment?
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on January 01, 2012, 04:33:49 am
Sounds like a good idea.

What better way to NERF CAV than by making their horses unstoppable? I also agree with other suggestions regarding boosting maneuverability, HP, and/or speed for lighter horses.