cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Realism Discussion => Topic started by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 15, 2011, 11:09:43 am
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Title says it.
It is retarded and totally unrealistic that a person can jump forward with a pike that is about 3 meters long or more and then thrust it while being in the air, without stumbling or falling to the ground :rolleyes:
Jumpshooting was taken out because of all these people crying how unrealistic it is etc etc etc, but jumppoking with such a longweapon is of course totally realistic and must stay in the game :rolleyes:
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REMOVE POLEARM 360 TURN!
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You know what is even more unrealistic? People taking 12-17 foot poles, sprinting forward, stabbing them into the ground, and propelling themselves 20 feet in the air. Oh wait, that's called pole vaulting and trained athletes do it every day. I have no doubt, that if a trained pikeman had the inclination or need to jump while thrusting a merely 9-12 foot pole, he could do so. As to the real world efficacy of this possible action as a tactic, we will not speak, for any game lacking a one-to-one mapping of the human body only entails an abstraction of combat, not a true representation. After all, I don't seem to recall infinite feinting, infinite sprinting, instant turning, turning on one's own axis without a pivot, strictly perpendicular blocks, or strictly four attack directions in any medieval or renaissance fechtbücher.
On a more serious note, the more things a player can do and defend against, the more opportunities there are for skill to shine through. Ceteris paribus, a game with 100 moves has a higher skill ceiling than a game with 10. I like these little idiosyncrasies because it allows a player who can master and defeat them to be more successful than one who cannot, that is, it raises the skill ceiling and makes the game more variable.
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How many times does it have to be repeated that jumpshooting wasn't removed because of realism...? :rolleyes:
EDIT: Owait wrong board
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How many times does it have to be repeated that jumpshooting wasn't removed because of realism...? :rolleyes:
EDIT: Owait wrong board
Yes wrong board. Leave your smarmy anti-realist comments out of the realism board, thanks. :wink:
Jumping and swinging/thrusting a weapon, especially a pole weapon is very hard to do. Grab a broom stick and go try it in your backyard. You'll feel an odd sensation in your lower body and arms when you try swinging. That's because much of a swing's initiative force comes from hip movement that relies on the legs and feet pushing from the solid ground.
*edited
Jump attacking should be examined because it is abused by spear users. It looks ridiculous/lame/glitchy, distorts the role that a spear-man should be playing, and is counter-intuitive because it significantly ignores a player's expectations of what handling such a weapon would be like; M&B relies to a greater extent than other combat games on a sense of "weight" and physicality experienced by the player in relation to the aesthetic content of the game by way of directional combat and "realistic" weapon statistics.
With a small, light spear and finesse stabbing quickly at many angles would be effective, but the actual leaping, especially with longer, cumbersome spears is silly.
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Kaoklai, since when do you use the forums? (u my old friend) I think pike users should be able to vault by pointing down and jump onto roofs :twisted:
Solution to jump stab with pike. Hold down block. Run away if you can't fight him. They are one of my favorite people to fight because it's so hard to anticipate them. :mrgreen:
Pike users can't pull out a bec or something anymore. Seems good nuff to me! Skilled pikeman are much more interesting/deserving now. Just glad I don't see dime a dozen long spear spam now!
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You know what is even more unrealistic? People taking 12-17 foot poles, sprinting forward, stabbing them into the ground, and propelling themselves 20 feet in the air. Oh wait, that's called pole vaulting and trained athletes do it every day. I have no doubt, that if a trained pikeman had the inclination or need to jump while thrusting a merely 9-12 foot pole, he could do so. As to the real world efficacy of this possible action as a tactic, we will not speak, for any game lacking a one-to-one mapping of the human body only entails an abstraction of combat, not a true representation. After all, I don't seem to recall infinite feinting, infinite sprinting, instant turning, turning on one's own axis without a pivot, strictly perpendicular blocks, or strictly four attack directions in any medieval or renaissance fechtbücher.
On a more serious note, the more things a player can do and defend against, the more opportunities there are for skill to shine through. Ceteris paribus, a game with 100 moves has a higher skill ceiling than a game with 10. I like these little idiosyncrasies because it allows a player who can master and defeat them to be more successful than one who cannot, that is, it raises the skill ceiling and makes the game more variable.
marry me
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I have no doubt, that if a trained pikeman had the inclination or need to jump while thrusting a merely 9-12 foot pole, he could do so.
Could he spin around and jump with said pole whilst thrusting, as if it was made of air and passed through solid objects?
As to the real world efficacy of this possible action as a tactic, we will not speak, for any game lacking a one-to-one mapping of the human body only entails an abstraction of combat, not a true representation. After all, I don't seem to recall infinite feinting, infinite sprinting, instant turning, turning on one's own axis without a pivot, strictly perpendicular blocks, or strictly four attack directions in any medieval or renaissance fechtbücher.
An argument that you could use to call into question any decision to make the game more realistic. "The game is not realistic in x,y,z ways, so the game can never be made more realistic."
On a more serious note, the more things a player can do and defend against, the more opportunities there are for skill to shine through. Ceteris paribus, a game with 100 moves has a higher skill ceiling than a game with 10. I like these little idiosyncrasies because it allows a player who can master and defeat them to be more successful than one who cannot, that is, it raises the skill ceiling and makes the game more variable.
I agree with you that variation keeps the game interesting, but on this matter its really about agi/wpf stacked awlpikers/pikers/halberders leaping around in a ridiculous way, doing the same move over and over and over and over: The opposite of variety.
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Could he spin around and jump with said pole whilst thrusting, as if it was made of air and passed through solid objects?
Yes if hes Paxton Fettels Ghost.
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just remove any jump+ action for all classes..
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just remove any jump+ action for all classes..
Ok as much as I have campaigned for this in the past, I must say this is a bad idea. Jump attacking is useful for taking on cavalry as melee. What's more, there's nothing more satisfying that getting a finishing blow with a jump attacking in a duel with my 2h. My favorite way to kill someone in melee. So let the jump attacks stay I say! (even for pike).
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Its fine - block down
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Unless they jump all the way around you and stab you behind your block, which is the problem. Yes it is possible, especially with awlpikes.
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Nah, it's fine as it is.
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just remove any jump+ action for all classes..
This. Cavalry can be killed anyway by cutting down the horse, and it removes one retard-method of fighting in general.
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just remove any jump+ action for all classes..
This one! +1 +1 +1 +1
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This. Cavalry can be killed anyway by cutting down the horse, and it removes one retard-method of fighting in general.
And when its removed next whines come marching in: "archers arent reachable anymore", "cav cant be killed on horse", "I cant jump just for the lolz" ... Just so leave it as it is, its fine.
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THE REASON that people jump stab is because spinning around the down block is all that a Pike/LS can do. Spears have the ability to poke high/overhand, and this needs to be reflected in the game for realistic pike play. Because yeah, otherwise people will do whatever unrealistic shit the game allows in order to get the hits. But three pikemen should not be completely stymied by one man blocking down.
Give the Pike/LS an alternate weapon mode where the animation becomes an overhand poke, blocked by an Up Block, so that two pikemen in a team can use their weapons like a pike team would. Not like a mythical Shaolin Pike Master would. Hell, give them this mode and take away any Pike/LS attacks while jumping and I'd be completely happy.
This one! +1 +1 +1 +1
Many maps have features that would require jumping. What are we going to do, make wooden fences impassible barriers to infantry?
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Give the Pike/LS an alternate weapon mode where the animation becomes an overhand poke, blocked by an Up Block, so that two pikemen in a team can use their weapons like a pike team would. Not like a mythical Shaolin Pike Master would. Hell, give them this mode and take away any Pike/LS attacks while jumping and I'd be completely happy.
I'd love this for a lot of polearms when used in two hands, but especially for pikes. Could for example give the bec and halberds and stuff a secondary mode that is underhand and overhand thrusts, and the primary mode being as it is now. Sometimes you just want to keep people away with the pointy end, and it's very useful for narrow places.
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It is a bit unrealistic to enter what you think will be a medieval battle, only to see pikemen doing 360 ballet spins with pikes... (wtf? am I playing Mount & Ballerina?) That said, removing the "feature" would prevent pikers from fighting anyone who isn't just holding down block the entire time (also unrealistic).
Thus, +1 remove pike spinning
+1 to the add high thrust and make the weapon harder to feign-attack (unbalanced, right?)
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its very hard to feint with thrust if you are close to your opponent, it just register as a block.. but the jump hit is just retarded, and i almost never used it, even i play with pike for very long time..
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Well you can do the 360 spinthrust and its weird.
But seriously players came up to a point of chambers and chamber blocking etc, then why the fuck cant you down block you know they can do the spin by now and you know they wil do it then just dont spam its fighting an one direction weapon how hard can it be?
And most of the times i outspeed my enemy before then can do the fuckin pike wiggle sooo....
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Why is polearm thrust so much faster then 1h thrust?
Pikes were usually anchored into the ground with the foot and used for infantry and cavalry to jam into it.
Not jump 360 spin stabs which are physically impossible with human abilities.
Pole vaulting argument is stupid, its a flexible pole that weighs like 1/10th of a polearm weapon and doesn't defy the laws of physics. (Ie spinning in the air, stopping magically, and thrusting)
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No jumping while the spear is 'cocked'?
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just remove any jump+ action for all classes..
+1
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Because, in idle, it is already half-ready for thrust.
Btw, lets not look at the realism only from one point of view. This game is not about 100% realism, and I accept that, even though that I wish it was other way around.
Problem with pikes and long spears is that it encourages teamplay, and average player can hardly go rambo against a combo of a piker and a 2h guy.
If you want realism, please explain to me how shielders can withstand so many hits to their shield by a Great Long Axe and not break their arm? How can archers shoot so many arrows without getting tired? Same goes for melee guys.
Well... as long as were happy with something that is against the laws of physics (jumping straight up, then spinning/changing direction at any speed you like while in the air) then that's fine by me.
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Why is polearm thrust so much faster then 1h thrust?
Pikes were usually anchored into the ground with the foot and used for infantry and cavalry to jam into it.
Not jump 360 spin stabs which are physically impossible with human abilities.
Pole vaulting argument is stupid, its a flexible pole that weighs like 1/10th of a polearm weapon and doesn't defy the laws of physics. (Ie spinning in the air, stopping magically, and thrusting)
When you allow pikes and spears and shields to be braced off the ground then we discuss basing anything in the mod off of realism. Just allow weapons to have static damage built into them without having to swing them would be nice (i.e. if a horseman runs into a lance that's not being thrusted, but still hits the lance tip it should do damage).
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Many maps have features that would require jumping. What are we going to do, make wooden fences impassible barriers to infantry?
He said take out jump+ action not just jump, there. Kind of how it is in Mount and Musket I'd imagine.
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Realistically you would divert the stab with the point facing down and it moving across your body, following by a very fast overhand swing. (Done in a single motion)
Its a very easy and effective technique that works on any weapon that is trying to stab you. Visually the animation looks wrong to block a stab but in reality the technique I mentioned would make short work of any spear type weapon thrusting.
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And after that you put a tooth under your pillow and drink a warm glass of chocolate milk?
What you said works for 1 handed thrust. NOT when someone is holding 3m sharpened pole with their both hands and locked under armpit.
I don't know if you ever heard of Kali, its a Philippine art used for stick/sword/knife fighting. Kali uses this technique I described to block stabs as one of the many block techniques. If you want a bit more of an explanation there is also a bit of a side step, and the block is meant to keep it on course while the person moves out of the way, while the weapon stops the opponents weapon from following the direction change. It would work quite easily for a pike or any long thrusting weapon really.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQltqe2FFcE&feature=related
Little video there of a master at work with Kali, which also translates into dual weapon fighting when your skilled enough in the art.
It's a little something I do on weekends when I get bored of internet sword fighting ;)
EDIT: At 2:44 he actually uses the technique I described.
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I can see how you would block a pike with those tiny sticks.
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I like jumpstab, it looks retarded but it adds some flair into the game.
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I think the poking mechanisms are pretty cool honestly. You gotta use your imagination a bit, but all the moves arent as completely wacky as a 360 or the even worse, 720 spin with a longspear / pike. Arcing it to the side or up first make a degree of sense.
What I have changed my mind about over the past couple months is its ability to block perfectly. I appreciate the devs experimenting with taking its block ability away, but I wish there was somewhere in between that was possible. Because right now, the only way to get past it, is to break through the line of offense with shields or taking out targets one by one, or insanely risky footwork. Finally you make it, and the key target is taking out that pikeman, but he can turn the 3 meter long stick horizontally and vertically in an instant. He has the perfect defense, and there is nothing you can do without a great maul to penetrate that.
If anything it helps you block by drawing a giant brown BLOCK THIS WAY line across your screen. In reality, you could block, absolutely, but 10 consecutive times, absolutely not. Screw realism in game balance, yeah I agree, but could it be possible to code in a small stun when it blocks, allowing for a follow up thrust or side swing? Taking out a pikeman right now means bringing a crossbow and telling all of your friends to as well, because you can't punish a pikeman for leaving himself open right now. Pikes sometimes feel like fighting Dhalsim but with invincibility frames on yoga fire and teleport.
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Any piker attacking a block will be vulnerable for god knows how long. That thrust-stun on the pikes are ludicrous. That's really what you should take advantage of when going for a pikeman. However if the piker is backpedaling and blocking flawlessly there's nothing you can do really. :P
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Taking out jump attacks? I imagine none of you have played, for example, Vikingr, that did this.
The result? A guy rushes and jumps to a spot, that is only reachable by jumping, then camps it, enemy melee can't possibly do anything to him. And that was in the rather small Vikingr playerbase...
What could cRPG players come up with? :|
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jsut remove poleston,, fixed
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No I did not actually hear about it, but it I still stand my ground with the fact that pushing away a man, who is wielding pike locked with 2 hands and running towards you, with one handed sword is close to impossible.
Sure thing, I will take your word as soon as you can jump in the air and spin at different speeds in any direction you chose and then thrust said pike during this miracle of a feat.
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Pike users can't pull out a bec or something anymore. Seems good nuff to me! Skilled pikeman are much more interesting/deserving now. Just glad I don't see dime a dozen long spear spam now!
hmm, yea.
tonight on NA1, spam of pike men was as obvious as that tent I was getting in my pants when playing.
*yes, I got a boner because my dick felt threatened by all the sticks out there*
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hmm, yea.
tonight on NA1, spam of pike men was as obvious as that tent I was getting in my pants when playing.
*yes, I got a boner because my dick felt threatened by all the sticks out there*
Wouldn't happen to have been that KUTT was on in force, would it? Pike clan on: lots of pikes. Archer clan on: lots of archers. Cav clan on: lots of cav.
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EDIT, ill stop bawwing
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Learn to read.
Then why use such an argument to counter a completely valid point that I made about you saying its unrealistic when we aren't even talking about realism.
Learn to think.
Game breaking mechanic, don't allow weapons of a certain length or longer to be swung while in the air.
Sound really tough to program to me:
If weapon length >= 150 AND player = jump
Then
Player = no attack
I'm sure it's not that easy, but stfu about something being too difficult to do when you aren't the one doing it.
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Wouldn't happen to have been that KUTT was on in force, would it? Pike clan on: lots of pikes. Archer clan on: lots of archers. Cav clan on: lots of cav.
User: Wouldn't happen to have been that KUTT was on in force, would it? Pike clan on: lots of pikes. Archer clan on: lots of archers. Cav clan on: lots of cav.
Cleverbot: Perdona? No te he entendido.
cleverbot no approve
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F*** you Konrax. Get some brains. Pikeman (with 3 m pike NOT the long spear that is till viable for dueling) is extremely vulnerable when being pitted 1 v 1 against some crazy 2hander. He can only block and backpedal which won't last long - either he will get gangbanged or he will get saved. The only advantage we have is the weapon length - but without jumping and jump spin attacking we can't HIT for shit cause of game physics (blocking a huge 3m pike with a single down block with ANY kind of weapon - be it a huge flamberge or a tiny wooden stick). And we CAN'T raise our pike and try to hit enemies from behind an ally through gaps - cause we will undoubtedly hit an ally or the pike will just do "whiff" sound and it takes a whole fucking second to recharge an attack, then backpedal a bit cause the game doesn't have static weapon damage and we're deprived of the ability to use our weapon's length and weight to sink the pike's point into one's body without using momentum.
Now the only way to actually hit someone is to jump, spin and use the length of your weapon. You gonna blame us for that? And all you need to do is pay some attention, block down in time and MIRACLE you're not hit. If you're hit then you're noob and can't block for shit. Or you shouldn't have chosen this spot on battlefield (like going in some whacky formation against group of 3-4 pikemen and some 2handers + shielders). The pike has ONE goddamn attack and you still whine. Not TWO even. BUT ONE. Even a kid can do that for god's sake :lol: I am a pikeman and i can easily fight off other pikemen even if they're jump spinning.
F*** you man. You're stupid. This is game. In reality we would have pike formation and nice polished breastplate. STFU. Your blabbering is really disturbing. It's not even a discussion. It's just an one-sided whining.
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It's completetly dumb when it comes with shorter weapons then long spear/pike (wich I really don't mind, but it's a support weapon and it should considered only this way) like War Spear/Awlpikes/Ashwood pike etc. Polearms thrust connects faster then any other attack, combined with fast weapon and this silly tactic you can outspam and outreach almost every other weapon, add this to polestagger and you are boss, of course it takes some time to learn this techniques, but it's pretty much gamebreaking. I really don't care about realism, for me it's just retarded.
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It's completetly dumb when it comes with shorter weapons then long spear/pike (wich I really don't mind, but it's a support weapon and it should considered only this way) like War Spear/Awlpikes/Ashwood pike etc. Polearms thrust connects faster then any other attack, combined with fast weapon and this silly tactic you can outspam and outreach almost every other weapon, add this to polestagger and you are boss, of course it takes some time to learn this techniques, but it's pretty much gamebreaking. I really don't care about realism, for me it's just retarded.
This i support. Awlpike lighting-speed thrust is soo annoying.
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Exactly! You're the one who pulled out the realism card first, and I only tried to tell you how realism does not play much in cRPG. Making only one thing realistic would require a whole lot of changes to game mechanics.
CRPG Forum >> CRPG >> Suggestions Corner >> REALISM DISCUSSION
Not sure if you noticed this.
F*** you Konrax. Get some brains. Pikeman (with 3 m pike NOT the long spear that is till viable for dueling) is extremely vulnerable when being pitted 1 v 1 against some crazy 2hander. He can only block and backpedal which won't last long - either he will get gangbanged or he will get saved. The only advantage we have is the weapon length - but without jumping and jump spin attacking we can't HIT for shit cause of game physics (blocking a huge 3m pike with a single down block with ANY kind of weapon - be it a huge flamberge or a tiny wooden stick). And we CAN'T raise our pike and try to hit enemies from behind an ally through gaps - cause we will undoubtedly hit an ally or the pike will just do "whiff" sound and it takes a whole fucking second to recharge an attack, then backpedal a bit cause the game doesn't have static weapon damage and we're deprived of the ability to use our weapon's length and weight to sink the pike's point into one's body without using momentum.
Now the only way to actually hit someone is to jump, spin and use the length of your weapon. You gonna blame us for that? And all you need to do is pay some attention, block down in time and MIRACLE you're not hit. If you're hit then you're noob and can't block for shit. Or you shouldn't have chosen this spot on battlefield (like going in some whacky formation against group of 3-4 pikemen and some 2handers + shielders). The pike has ONE goddamn attack and you still whine. Not TWO even. BUT ONE. Even a kid can do that for god's sake :lol: I am a pikeman and i can easily fight off other pikemen even if they're jump spinning.
F*** you man. You're stupid. This is game. In reality we would have pike formation and nice polished breastplate. STFU. Your blabbering is really disturbing. It's not even a discussion. It's just an one-sided whining.
I'm sorry I just don't pay attention to anyone under the age of 15.
Actually... I'm not sorry.
It's pretty clear your a pike or long spear user, and its funny that a post later you talk about how bs awlpike is because its so fast... well its the same problem just awlpike is more viable 1v1, while pikes and long spears are significantly more dangerous in groups, and thus more difficult to approach because of jump spin stab moves that defy the laws of physics which is exactly why its being discussed on the REALISM BOARD.
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Pikes are terrible 1v1 and if anyone ever falls for a jump spin stab move they are just terrible no matter how ridiculous it is.
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Thanks for pointing that out. I guess that means we can talk in here without taking into account the BALANCING part of the game.
Well at least you get it now.
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Lol, this board is a BS. Why bother discussing REALISM? It's soo clear and blatant, what's the point? Sure, if you want realism, you will get it, but don't whine about game mechanics in realism discussion board then. It's so retarded. It gives the impression that this board is for people who cant deal with the way game runs, but instead of properly discussing and suggesting changes, (like any adequate man would do) prefer to just whine and whine and whine and whine some more. You look like bunch of retards.
I'm sorry I just don't pay attention to anyone under the age of 15.
Lol, find some strength to accept that fact that you came here just to whine like a little b*tch with no intention to discuss whatsoever. And when you're given some solid facts, you close your eyes and make excuses. Age doesn't mean a shit, facts are facts.
And BTW i am 20. So ****you man :lol:
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Hey, you got the point of this board! Congrats! :lol:
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Yeah, shouldn't have even bothered myself posting here. Cya :lol:
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solution, doing any thrust attack (polearm/1h/2h) will massively slow down your turning speed. Also same for Archers, throwers, if they draw back their turning speed is decreased alot.
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Remove rain.
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just remove any jump+ action for all classes..
like in MM Russia?
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Lol, this board is a BS. Why bother discussing REALISM? It's soo clear and blatant, what's the point? Sure, if you want realism, you will get it, but don't whine about game mechanics in realism discussion board then. It's so retarded. It gives the impression that this board is for people who cant deal with the way game runs, but instead of properly discussing and suggesting changes, (like any adequate man would do) prefer to just whine and whine and whine and whine some more. You look like bunch of retards.
Lol, find some strength to accept that fact that you came here just to whine like a little b*tch with no intention to discuss whatsoever. And when you're given some solid facts, you close your eyes and make excuses. Age doesn't mean a shit, facts are facts.
And BTW i am 20. So ****you man :lol:
The first thing you said on this thread was a direct attack at me.
Take your own advice and have a real discussion, and if you want to look at logic by all means go back the last 5 pages and look at what I wrote.
Yes I come to this board to whine like a little bitch about borked game mechanics because this game was made by 3 guys and they did all the work including building the engine for it. Congrats its a broken game, and they used poor balancing techniques to amend the broken game engine they HAD to use to get the game out.
For the record jump stabs with pikes can actually hit above and bellow the block threshold thanks to magical pike hit boxes and borked game physics. Anyone who disagrees just wants to sustain a BS element of this game that should have been done away with years ago.
Been lobbying for slowdown + removal of overhead for a long time, but item balancers disagree.
It's way overused now (I use it too)...
Gee looks like pikes are starting to become a very real problem....
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I'm a hoplite and the jump + attack is really dumb. If you're in a 1v1 situation, take your 1h/1slot polearm out. Even some of the KUTT guys like Tanken does fairly well doing that.
To clarify, I think jumping offers too much instantaneous speed, and it helps negate many of the negatives from slow and clunky weapons. I don't jump as much anymore, but I experimented enough with jumping a lot in the past and experienced quite a few gimmicky kills.
The only time I really whine about the jump stuff is when I finally breach through to the piker, and end up having to fight Mr. jumping bean whom I can't always get close to since he jumps away. Pressuring up close isn't really all that effective anymore. This is from my point of view.
In all fairness though, many jump + actions are pretty bogus that I have to abuse. Jump+weapon switch being my most prominent use nowadays.
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Yeah jump+ actions are pretty gimmicky. I also use the jump+switch weapons in a tight jam if I still have my lance out (or if I'm long spearing), and otherwise would easily get stabbed by trying to switch weapons.
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Imagine it not as a jump, but more of a backwards/forewards lunge.
Problem solved
inb4 it's OP, downblock