cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Banzai!!! on December 14, 2011, 06:52:02 pm

Title: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: Banzai!!! on December 14, 2011, 06:52:02 pm: I am fairly new to this mod and I have been wondering that what with Arbalest crossbows able to deal 81 pierce damage why no clan has choose to decimate the battle server by all getting together and doing fire by rank against all these heavily armed people?

I realise that alot of the tactical gameplay takes place on strategus and perhaps this 'fire by rank' is done on strategus but I think it would be just epic to see all these people who may be skilled when it comes to using a sword or have lots of money to get the best equipment just get mowed down by a continuous barrage of crossbow bolts :D
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: BaldRider on December 14, 2011, 06:54:16 pm: Simply because fire by rank in the most retarded tactic that ever existed.
It's only function is keeping your worthless troops from not retreating.
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: Lizard_man on December 14, 2011, 06:55:18 pm: A bunch of people lined up, easy targets for archers... :P
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: Ujin on December 14, 2011, 06:57:40 pm: We did it a long time ago (still was the Shogunate) for a while, just for shits and giggles =). Not too efficient though.
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: Lange on December 14, 2011, 07:10:06 pm: http://www.myvideo.de/watch/8152847/Funny_Things_with_HRE_by_dLR

Note it took two rounds to kill that guy.

Would probably be more effective with all crossbow-chars, but still...
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on December 14, 2011, 07:27:02 pm: visitors can't see pics , please register or login
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Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: Turkhammer on December 14, 2011, 07:29:25 pm: Real crossbow users had an assistant who placed a portable shield in front of both of them when they were in the field. That would be a nice addition to C RPG.
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: Osiris on December 14, 2011, 08:55:47 pm: you cant really fire by rank unless you can kneel :P
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: Christo on December 14, 2011, 09:13:22 pm: Quote from: BaldRider on December 14, 2011, 06:54:16 pm
Simply because fire by rank in the most retarded tactic that ever existed.
It's only function is keeping your worthless troops from not retreating.

^

I really don't like this kinda tactic, it's up there with WW1 in stupidity and dying for nothing.
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: Greziz on December 14, 2011, 09:40:13 pm: Probably because massing in a location and trying to organize draws attention this attention is generally archers with fast fire rates and good aim from relentless practice that almost no human in life could ever achieve with real battles. So in essence your just lining up to be slaughtered also doesn't help that the crossbow is by in far the most inferior of the ranged weapons as once it fires its shot your sol in the open and thus you must take cover and anything that flanks or forces you from cover reduces you to a hybrid melee character without the range being used even remotely to its fullest use in most cases. There is a reason there are dedicated throwers and archers but dedicated xbow men tend to be much rarer it is because the dedicated ranged classes are able to move and fire and thus always stand a chance of real return fire vs another ranged class that can move and fire/reload xbows only good quality it has is single 1 shot raw hitting power and ammo speed and both of those qualities have been nerfed to being only narrowly almost non existently slightly better than a long bow arrow and dmg.
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: dodnet on December 14, 2011, 10:20:12 pm: Fire in ranks really was one of the stupiest tactics on the battlefield. I dunno why it was even used for such a long time.
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: Azrael on December 16, 2011, 10:43:22 pm: My clan has done it, it is quite fun however we do not do a line formation cuz that is too vulnerable to arrows. it is quite fun and can be efficient if your team has good aim
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: isatis on December 16, 2011, 10:47:03 pm: one thing: big mob is a good target for catapult

that's all.
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: Jarlek on December 17, 2011, 01:08:29 am: Quote from: dodnet on December 14, 2011, 10:20:12 pm
Fire in ranks really was one of the stupiest tactics on the battlefield. I dunno why it was even used for such a long time.
I believe it was mainly used to make cavalry unable to attack you. If infantry stood very close together it was almost impossible to make a horse charge into them. Horses aren't stupid animals and wont charge something it believes it can't run through, especially if that mass of humans are pointing sharp objects (spears/pikes) or loud sticks that shoots fire (guns). The fire by rank was then the most efficient way to make as many people able to fire while staying in a concentrated mass. Ofc, it made them more vulnerable to enemy fire and artillery, but it was usually better to have a random chance to be shot by the enemy, than definitely be ridden down by the enemy cavalry. This is why the skirmishers and other light infantry (those who DIDN'T stand in a centred mass) greatest threat was cavalry. Skirmishers could easily defeat a larger force of normal infantry, and artillery was even less effective, but cavalry would cut them to pieces if they could get to them.
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: Renten on December 17, 2011, 01:26:04 am: You can only get by hit one attack a time. So if 40 bolts hit you at the same time you'd only get hit by one and likely survive.
Fire by squad* or down the line would work better.

*1/5 of the total fires at a time down the line.
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: Canary on December 17, 2011, 02:25:40 am: Ye olde medieval operators camp a barn.

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Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: MountedRhader on December 17, 2011, 04:33:03 am: Probably because most maps don't have chokepoints where one could organize a crossbow firing station.

This tactic isn't efficient unless you know where you are aiming ...
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: Braeden on December 17, 2011, 04:38:23 am: Back on the ATS community server with its city maps full of narrow hallways and streets we occasionally got a firing squad together with 4-6 crossbows. It worked wonders until someone showed up with a good shield.
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: Taser on December 17, 2011, 09:54:46 pm: Quote from: Canary on December 17, 2011, 02:25:40 am
Ye olde medieval operators camp a barn.

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visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Operators gonna operate.

But a crossbow line could work with shielders to protect their front when they need to reload. Its always fun to see teamwork, regardless of how well it works in game.
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: Huey Newton on December 17, 2011, 10:04:20 pm: in an open field most line-up formations (either by ranged or infantry) get smoked by heavy cav and archers

Sad reality
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: okiN on December 17, 2011, 10:09:29 pm: Quote from: Banzai!!! on December 14, 2011, 06:52:02 pm
I am fairly new to this mod and I have been wondering that what with Arbalest crossbows able to deal 81 pierce damage why no clan has choose to decimate the battle server by all getting together and doing fire by rank against all these heavily armed people?

I realise that alot of the tactical gameplay takes place on strategus and perhaps this 'fire by rank' is done on strategus but I think it would be just epic to see all these people who may be skilled when it comes to using a sword or have lots of money to get the best equipment just get mowed down by a continuous barrage of crossbow bolts :D

I take it you mean volley fire, since fire by rank really isn't actually possible in Warband.

Anyway, our Nordmen squad actually ran into a large group of players (mostly members of the Mercenaries clan) doing crossbow lines on EU1 about a week ago. This was quite fun for us, because we had a permanent x5 winning streak until they got tired of losing and stopped doing it. I understand it was very frustrating for the people stuck on their team.

So to answer your question: like the others already said, it isn't done because it doesn't work. Standing still in open ground in a big line gets you shot by enemy archers skirmishing from cover and renders you extremely vulnerable to flanking, or even head-on charges due to the reload time.
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: Inkompetent on December 17, 2011, 10:49:29 pm: I was in there with okiN, and when the Merc-guys were on the enemy team it was x5-farming, when they were on your own team it was complete misery because they were easy targets, and they skewed the weapon distribution within the team. If you had 50 guys on the team, and 12 of them are identical guys in cheap outfits with crossbows, then you lack surely at least one cavalryman, several 2h-guys, and several shielders that could be useful for the team.

The Merc-dudes usually got repeatedly violated by cavalry in all forms, since the team lacked so many useful weapons (2h swords, polearms, cav) to take them down.
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: Paul on December 18, 2011, 01:10:45 am: Mercs are the new Templars?
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: Blueberry Muffin on December 18, 2011, 01:30:23 am: :D

It was about having fun, not winning. We got owned by skirmishing archers most of the time but it was so worth it for when all 15 of you suddenly lock down onto one poor sod. Strafing about did them no good, too many hunting xbow bolts raining down. You can tell that all they were thinking was oh shi- before a volley of bolts slammed into them.
Anyways, haters gonna hate.
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: Kafein on December 18, 2011, 02:38:03 am: Firing lines, formations etc. only work at very big scales (thousands of men). cRPG only involves a few dozen players, hundreds at best. Video games being what they are now, organizing things to avoid chaos etc. isn't optimal at all. Small scales favor skirmish type and individualistic (or rather "independant") warfare. Each warrior takes his own decisions for the better, rather than blindy following orders.
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: okiN on December 18, 2011, 02:57:07 am: Quote from: Blueberry Muffin on December 18, 2011, 01:30:23 am
It was about having fun, not winning. We got owned by skirmishing archers most of the time but it was so worth it for when all 15 of you suddenly lock down onto one poor sod. Strafing about did them no good, too many hunting xbow bolts raining down. You can tell that all they were thinking was oh shi- before a volley of bolts slammed into them.
Anyways, haters gonna hate.

Yeah, that's obvious enough. It was quite fun to see and like I said we enjoyed the free x5, which we kept until most of your guys left and autobalance started splitting us up again. Unfortunately that also left me stranded on the same team with the remaining Mercs, who by that point had gone from xbow lines to some kind of caveman impersonation -- I didn't bother sticking around long after that.

That's the main problem with doing this kind of thing, really. It may be fun for you if you don't mind constantly losing, but you're really fucking over everyone who has the misfortune of being stuck with you.
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 18, 2011, 02:58:29 am: Quote from: Kafein on December 18, 2011, 02:38:03 am
Firing lines, formations etc. only work at very big scales (thousands of men).

...Which was also the Reason why it was used for a long time in battles.

Its simply there because its almost impossible to organize an army of for example 50000 men(Napoleons Grande Armee was 500000)if they are loosely formated.

In Medieval times, this worked, simply because the Thing that decided the fight in many cases was the big melee.In melee, most formations broke loose anyway, so It didnt make much sense to even try(Although it was used rather effectively by some nations, Romans for example, but they weren´t medieval).

Also, at the times were Firing lines and such were used, the thing dominating the Battlefield was the Musket.Muskets weren´t too accurate, and loosely organized Armys relying on musket didnt work well because they would simply take too long.

Another reason is that the chance of People fleeing and deserting from battle is much smaller with tight line formations.You might want to read Tolstois "War and peace" for some contemporary tales.In Line battles, the presence of the other Soldiers right behind and besides you strengthens the morale, and single soldiers almost never fled.Either the whole unit flees or pretty much nobody did.
Title: Re: Why has no clan choose to do fire by rank with crossbows on the battle server?
Post by: Thucydides on December 18, 2011, 03:11:06 am: The "fire by rank" was a counter to the mass Pike/musket formations of the 17th century. Gustavus Adolphus pioneered its use in the 30 year war by shallowing out his line to 6 men instead of the contemporary square tercio and other formations. It allows rapid fire preventing the pikemen from committing into a devastating charge and combined with artillary and cavalry it decimated conventional formations at the time.

Doesn't work in warband for the same reason that a shield wall doesn't, pinpoint archer consistancy and the lack of a morale system means that skirmishers can fight fearlessly and the point of line battles becomes moot.