cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Toffey on December 12, 2011, 02:39:56 am

Title: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Toffey on December 12, 2011, 02:39:56 am
After playing as a fairly normal shielder (24/15) for my first gen, I'm thinking of doing something a bit different:

Level 31 (8 892 403 xp)

    Strength: 33
    Agility: 9

    Skills to attributes: 12

    Power Strike: 11
    Shield: 3
    Athletics: 3
    Weapon Master: 3

    One Handed: 132

So, is this at all practical? What would be the best way to make use of the 11 power strike, and compensate for the low athletics and shield, and non-existent iron flesh?
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: HarunYahya on December 12, 2011, 02:58:52 am
Are you a masochist ?
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Zanze on December 12, 2011, 04:59:01 am
Too slow. Get 4 Athletics.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: rustyspoon on December 12, 2011, 05:15:13 am
Well first off, everyone will run circles around you and you'll have trouble getting in range of competent players. Not too mention that str scales TERRIBLY on 1-handers. For example:

With this build you'll need a relatively long weapon with decent damage. Let's say you go with an Elite Scimitar. It has good length, good speed and decent damage. It's base damage is 31. Now, apply your 88% damage bonus and you're looking at an increase of 27.28 points of damage which will bring you to 58.28 points of damage.

Now, compare it to a current popular 2 hander the Danish. Danish is slower, but MUCH longer which can help you with your low athletics. It's base damage is 40. Now, its 88% damage increase is 35.2 which will bring you to 75.2 damage per swing.

1-handers just don't benefit as much from str builds due to their lower initial damage combined with their slower movement speed due to shield.

So yeah, I think you'll have a shitty time with a build like that.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: MrShine on December 12, 2011, 05:23:34 am
I agree that build seems a bit too slow.  Also your shield will break frequently.

However I will say I've had great success with a 24/12 shielder:
8IF
8PS
4Shield
4Ath
4WM
1 into...throwing or whatever.

If you are building for level 31 (not recommended) then I suggest converting skill points and putting 4 into riding at the end.

Biggest issues:
-you need to know when not to swing at a backpeddler
-you need to be ready to manual block if your shield breaks
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: San on December 12, 2011, 05:26:36 am
I believe STR shielder is decent as long as you pump up the ironflesh. Without ironflesh, there really isn't too much of a point. I suggest lowering STR to 30 or 27 so you can build your ironflesh up. The extra PS isn't worth the sacrifice.

I think as long as you utilize your shield, you shouldn't have too much trouble approaching someone. You have to be aware of your build and what role you play in battle, though.


While leveling up, I recommend keeping your AGI at 9 and build up your strength. If you're still comfortable with that speed, keep building up strength, otherwise build your agi up.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: The_danish_lost_viking on December 12, 2011, 05:33:01 am
I have 6 Athletics. I dont need to hit hard as a shielder. I have 5 ironflesh and 5 powerstrike, when my weapon is masterwork it hit harder.
I have 5 shield i Think its fine, now i work on my weaponmaster i like to have min. 5 in that too
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Rhygar666 on December 12, 2011, 06:10:27 am
the rest is mentioned so i skip that part but with 3 shield skill:
your shield will break every round, bolts will just fly trough it.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: PieParadox on December 12, 2011, 06:50:48 am
What rustyspoons is right.

I think that if you're gonna go a strength build, go with 2h or polearm. The point of a shielder if to have a good shield and use it well without breaking after 5 hits. Might as well go 2h/pole and invest 1-2 points in shield. 1h is gimped already.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: The_danish_lost_viking on December 12, 2011, 07:02:27 am
Here is my build:

Available points: 0
Strength   15   
Agility   18   
Weapon proficiency

One Handed   143   
Two Handed   1
Polearm   1   
Archery   1   
Crossbow   1   
Throwing   1   
Skills

Iron Flesh   5   
Power Strike   5   
Shield   5   
Athletics   6   
Riding   0   
Horse Archery   0   
Power Draw   0   
Power Throw   0   
Weapon Master   5   

Now i want more weapon master
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Xant on December 12, 2011, 07:29:25 am
15-18 is a horribly gimped level 30 build, so I hope it's not that. Besides, it has more agi than str, OP is asking about str shielders.

24-15 is really as far as you want to go with strength builds. Unless >level 31, then 27-15 might be an option.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Lansamur on December 12, 2011, 08:04:03 am
24-15 is really as far as you want to go with strength builds. Unless >level 31, then 27-15 might be an option.

This.
If in doubt, always carry a Crushthtorugh with you and have some fun. 24/15 gives you enogh power to 1hit archers (backhand swing needed!) and get a tincan down in 3-4 hits (again, backhand swing). Even in heavy armor, you're still fast enough to beat agi-builds with scimitar/knightly heatershield spammers with the right timing and good footwork.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Furax on December 12, 2011, 09:21:07 am
You will rage with this build.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Dezilagel on December 12, 2011, 09:45:17 am
Convert that shield skill to IF, use some light armor and voĆ­la! A decent build.

Now personally, that build looks waay too slow for me but I did have a 24-15 stf noshield 1h guy and I can tell you that was a really good build.

Iberian mace ftw.

Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 12, 2011, 09:52:00 am
the rest is mentioned so i skip that part but with 3 shield skill:
your shield will break every round, bolts will just fly trough it.

Not really.

I played alot with 3 Shield skill.Round cavalry shield.

Bolts only fly through it on close range and only if they are shot from an Arbalest(And sometimes from an heavy crossbow if you are unlucky).

It  will, however, break relatively fast.

BUT I think its still pretty good for a STR shielder.

Why?Simple, you just need to block few hits because once you hit, you will kill due to high PS.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Corwin on December 12, 2011, 10:16:59 am
I also think high strength is impractical for a shielder, because your shield makes you slower than polearmers or twohanders already. You will be easy prey, anyone with 7 ath will be able to dance around you and hit you however he wants, and your shield will break very easy - 3 points just isn't enough.

If you want unorthodox and effective build for a shielder, try 12/24 with 8 ath and 8 shield. You will be fast enough, and you can even use lighter shield, since it will be indestructible. The only thing is you will have to take either blunt or piercing weapon.
Btw, I think this is kinngrimm's build, and he is effective enough.

If you want to play strength build, just go tin can and take Mallet or spamberge.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Phazey on December 12, 2011, 11:14:04 am
It's been said many times but here's my 2 cents:

One of the main advantages of a shielder, in my opinion, is your ability to deal with multiple opponents (melee and ranged) because you have a shield.

Even the best two handers and polearm guys can't block two swings at the same time if they are different directions. A shielder can.  So you want to be able to use that fact to your advantage.

To do that, you need:
1) high shield skill (5+ recommended for extra shield durability and the awesome coverage of the round shield / huscarl shield)
2) high athletics (so you can kite multiple enemies, step in between them quickly to make them teamhit each other and chase archers)

So most of us 1h shielder guys go for 21 / 15 or 18 / 18. Myself, i prefer the latter.

On the merits of power strike: i feel that, to be able to use a sword properly without too many glances, you really do need at least 6 power strike. Else it's better to go for blunt or pierce damage. At 5 power strike, most 1h swords will fail against high armor, forcing you to bring a blunt or pierce side arm like the picks and maces (which is perfectly viable by the way, try it).

I would probably have a very hard time with 24 / 9 in battle mode. That said, in siege mode and certain situations in battle mode, a high str shielder can be pretty good, especially when you team up with a good polearm / 2h guy. But you will be limited and somewhat dependant.

With high power strike, the 1h swords do glance a lot less and if you manage to hit mostly headshots, you are quite deadly. Just easily overwhelmed, because people tend to side-step your shield a lot.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Toffey on December 12, 2011, 05:31:06 pm
I did quite well with my first gen character, but I don't really want to be a standard shielder again. Right now I'm 15/9 and not doing too badly, so I figure I'll just keep boosting strength and see what happens.

Anyways, I'll probably follow San's advice since he's one of the better shielders in North America. Plus, I can always respec.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Xant on December 12, 2011, 09:56:47 pm
So most of us 1h shielder guys go for 21 / 15 or 18 / 18.

I'd personally recommend 24 / 15 and 21/18 or 18/21 instead of those.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Maximus101 on December 12, 2011, 11:32:26 pm
I'm gonna have such a fun time prancing around you, spamming and dancin till you drop dead on multiple occasions xD. Unless you get 12 agility. You will be needin the athletics and shield- trust me. The build you have atm is not gonna work. Always consider going for an agility shielder with a buckler. It will work a lot better.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Tears of Destiny on December 12, 2011, 11:50:06 pm
Personal experience, outside of Siege, anything with less then 4 athletics will be extremely difficult for a shielder. Using the Arabian Cavalry sword for the long reach, I managed to make a good 9PS 4SHLD 4WM 4ATHL shielder, but I am not sure how well 3 would work to be honest.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: hippy_with_a_scimi on December 13, 2011, 12:19:44 am
if i remember correctly Spa_Ghe_Thea    was 33/9  he was a wrecking machine...  its a good build too

but if i wanted to go high str , id say 24/15 ,
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Konrax on December 13, 2011, 04:25:52 pm
Balanced build is really the best since your proficient in everything, and you can take a hit.

6 shield with knighly heater is nearly insta block, I also carry a mighty iberian as my tin can and multi enemy weapon.

If you want to go st 21\15 works great, the 7iron flesh is nice and you arent slow either. 7 ps is plenty for 1h.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: BaleOhay on December 13, 2011, 04:58:22 pm
I have tried all kinds of shielder builds over 15 gens and I always seem to fall back on

21str
15agl

7 IF
7PS
5shd
5ath
5Wm
146 1 handed
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Blondin on December 13, 2011, 06:11:30 pm
Actually on a 24/15 build, with a MW Cleaver 38c damage, it's a good combo that do higher damages (1 hit in head, 2 or 3 hit max on most armor and max 4/5 hits for tin can sometime less).

I didn't want to go 27/12 because you need speed with that heavy shield that slow you down, and against breakshield axes you need to put distance with your opponent or your shield is over quick.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Formless on December 13, 2011, 06:23:39 pm
I have tried all kinds of shielder builds over 15 gens and I always seem to fall back on

21str
15agl

7 IF
7PS
5shd
5ath
5Wm
146 1 handed

Agreed, this is my fav build for shielder as well.  I tried all sorts of builds for a 1 hander and this build seems to hit the sweet spot, enough agility to get you moving in and out well, good hitting power and decent survivability.

Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Konrax on December 13, 2011, 06:45:16 pm
The extra speed from a balanced build is more for being quick in plate
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: clown1231 on December 14, 2011, 12:13:26 am
From your build, I would think that you would be trying to get a lot of kills. That, sadly, is not what being a shielder is about. A shielder is a support unit, and is best used in formations that protect non-shielders from arrows. However, you can still maintain a positive kill/death with a shielder, I usually do that quite a bit. With this in mind, if you still want to be a shielder, I would recommend this:

(click to show/hide)

The 7 powerstrike and ironflesh make this build take quite a few hits and deal considerable amounts of damage. Proficiency is enough to swing fast enough to avoid spammers, and if you want to put it all in 1h, go ahead.

Now for equipment. I would recommend something tough, but not heavy. Plate is too heavy for this, I find that the tunic over mail provides decent protection and freedom of movement. For kills, I recommend the military cleaver. If a tin can comes your way, it has a pierce damage secondary which can deal with them. If you want a versitile weapon, the knightly arming sword is what you want. For a shield, if you want to remain light, pick something smaller than a board shield. The Knightly Heater shield works fine. However, a board shield will last longer. If you plan on not carrying a polearm (which I recommend, it comes in handy against cav), you might as well carry the heaviest shield you can get! A war spear is pretty good to take for a polearm.

As for playstyle, people enjoy readying their strikes and waiting for you to put down your guard. Don't fall for it. Most will get impatient and hit your shield.

If you find yourself in a duel where you're not in danger of getting hit from behind, try to get around to the side of your opponent.

Keep a look out! When in an open area (bad idea) and approaching the enemy, take out your spear and look around with the ` key. Simply having a spear out can scare away some cav, but when I wasn't looking, I've been killed, even with a spear.

There, I'm done writing on this, feel free to use the build above, I was thinking of trying something new anyway.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Xant on December 14, 2011, 06:19:41 am
Who says you can't get a lot of kills as a shielder? A shielder isn't a support unit - you CAN be a support unit, but you don't have to be.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Tears of Destiny on December 14, 2011, 08:04:08 am
Ramses and Cyber certainly are hell on wheels for getting kills as shielders.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Cyber on December 14, 2011, 04:58:44 pm
I kind of agree with phaze here. One of the main advantages to being a shielder is that you can deal with multiple opponents more easily and for that you need high athletics. I have been going for 18/18 most of the time which imo is the best build for a shielder. This generation i tryed going 21/15 but i feel like im way too slow, almost useless.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Toffey on December 15, 2011, 04:11:44 pm
This idea seemed all well and good until I hit level 20 and remembered how long it takes to get to level 30. Then I remembered how long it takes to get from 30 to 31. I'm not too keen on playing 50 hours of cRPG with 3 athletics and shield.

Back to some sensible build, then.  :(
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Michael on December 15, 2011, 04:33:15 pm
Ramses and Cyber certainly are hell on wheels for getting kills as shielders.


They usually have at least two or three 'support' guys with them what gives them the opportunity to fight the opponents 1 vs 1.

A strength shielder with 8 power strike, relatively long weapon and big shield is in 1 vs 1 good against everyone except high agi kick slashers.

But once you get seperated from your pack, or those guys get killed, a str build shows its weaknesses. Many 2handers/ polearm guys have 8 and more ath, you are too slow to chase rangers efficiently, and melee in a 1 vs x is difficult.

When you want to go on your own, flank, kill rangers and stuff, I think a relatively fast build is the better choice. You better have two weapons with you though.
Elite Scimitar against light armored opponents, and steel pick or flanged mace against tincans.
You probably wont get so many kills, but keeping a whole group of enemies busy for a while, killing some and injuring some more might be more fun than sticking with the mob all the time.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: yedrellow on December 15, 2011, 05:38:28 pm

They usually have at least two or three 'support' guys with them what gives them the opportunity to fight the opponents 1 vs 1.

A strength shielder with 8 power strike, relatively long weapon and big shield is in 1 vs 1 good against everyone except high agi kick slashers.

Kick slashing is something you can deal with pretty easily with proper practice. I recommend that if you have a problem with kickslashing that you practice with moving to the side of opponent rather than directly at them and hitting them from the side. Kicking on the lead is far more difficult than kicking when someone runs directly towards you. With time you should learn how to dodge kicks without moving directly to the side of them (something best practiced on native against kickslashers). This is because most kick-slashing techniques depend upon the following:

Attack, move back momentarily using s, kick, slash.

This technique opens up a vulnerability if the non-kicker does not follow their backwards movement directly. If someone is an agility fighter you may even be able to 1 hit them by getting around their block and end the fight straight away.

I don't believe that people should forget the idea of using this build with some of the higher speed weapons as opposed to the high range weapons proposed by others in this thread. Using a liuyedao with 102 speed should counteract some of the negatives experienced by having lower weapon proficiency. Its high base damage and speed should both prevent speed based suppression and allow you to deal with armour. A liuyedao at 3 powerstrike in the right hands can kill plate users, it will do fine at 11 powerstrike. However you should only use this if you have experience in fighting when outranged, which is not true of a lot of players.

My opinion of the build as a whole is that you will probably be too slow. A shielder needs to be able to close range on balanced build backpeddlers, so it would probably be preferable to downgrade the strength to around 24 and bring athletics up to 4 or 5.  You may be able to alleviate some of the issues with speed by using quite light armour, but very few people can pull off a low armor strength character, so it is probably inadvisable. The only time where I'd see this character being more useful than others would be in massed fighting situations, where you are quite able to deal a lot of damage and survive.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Cyber on December 15, 2011, 06:19:11 pm

They usually have at least two or three 'support' guys with them what gives them the opportunity to fight the opponents 1 vs 1.

A strength shielder with 8 power strike, relatively long weapon and big shield is in 1 vs 1 good against everyone except high agi kick slashers.

But once you get seperated from your pack, or those guys get killed, a str build shows its weaknesses. Many 2handers/ polearm guys have 8 and more ath, you are too slow to chase rangers efficiently, and melee in a 1 vs x is difficult.

When you want to go on your own, flank, kill rangers and stuff, I think a relatively fast build is the better choice. You better have two weapons with you though.
Elite Scimitar against light armored opponents, and steel pick or flanged mace against tincans.
You probably wont get so many kills, but keeping a whole group of enemies busy for a while, killing some and injuring some more might be more fun than sticking with the mob all the time.

In the occasions that i still play in eu1 or any larger server i almost always go solo and never have any support guys with me, unless we are playing together with a big Fallen team, can't speak for ramses.

I don't see why you think that a high strength shielder is good in 1v1 though. What high STR gives you is more dmg and hp, this should help out a lot more when in a middle of a battle where you might need your dmg to kill off opponents faster or IF to survive some unexpected hits. High agy shielder seems to have all the advantages in 1v1.

I do agree with you that melee 1vsx is easier with fighting multiple opponents aswell. High STR build imo just has the advantage of managing to kill opponents off with fewer hits turning the battle and tank more dmg. ( which can both be really important )

yedrellow: Kick slashing is a problem for a 1h, no matter how much you practice agains't it, specially with a STR build and heavier armor. You might be able to avoid kicks of many people and actually get to their side and hit them, but better players won't let you do that. With good 2h or polearm players i usually either try to keep a balance of trying to stay out kick range, and inside 1h weapon range which can be a real pain, specially if i have a str build so they are faster then me, or just completely facehugging them in which case i need to hope that they miss their kicks.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: yedrellow on December 16, 2011, 09:27:25 am
In the occasions that i still play in eu1 or any larger server i almost always go solo and never have any support guys with me, unless we are playing together with a big Fallen team, can't speak for ramses.

I don't see why you think that a high strength shielder is good in 1v1 though. What high STR gives you is more dmg and hp, this should help out a lot more when in a middle of a battle where you might need your dmg to kill off opponents faster or IF to survive some unexpected hits. High agy shielder seems to have all the advantages in 1v1.

I do agree with you that melee 1vsx is easier with fighting multiple opponents aswell. High STR build imo just has the advantage of managing to kill opponents off with fewer hits turning the battle and tank more dmg. ( which can both be really important )

yedrellow: Kick slashing is a problem for a 1h, no matter how much you practice agains't it, specially with a STR build and heavier armor. You might be able to avoid kicks of many people and actually get to their side and hit them, but better players won't let you do that. With good 2h or polearm players i usually either try to keep a balance of trying to stay out kick range, and inside 1h weapon range which can be a real pain, specially if i have a str build so they are faster then me, or just completely facehugging them in which case i need to hope that they miss their kicks.

Look I understand why you may think kick-slashes are impossible to avoid, but it really is a footwork issue that can be worked on, regardless of low athletics. If you personally have a problem with kickslashes then it is something you can work on. Jump in a native duel server with a fighting pick and you should eventually learn how to deal with kick-slashing. If you're unwilling to practice on native, duel with a 40 reach hammer on your local crpg duel server until you learn how to avoid kicks. If you are facehugging them, then of course you're going to get kickslashed, but that doesn't mean that it is impossible to close distance. I am personally quite capable of dodging and punishing kickslashers of all qualities that I have encountered. With lower athletics it becomes harder, but really, the same principles can be applied to dodging and otherwise avoid kicks.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Xant on December 16, 2011, 11:25:51 am
Yeh, agree with Yedrellow. Kickslashes are just a nasty surprise when you come across a good player after killing lots of less good players. After the first kick, I'll just adapt accordingly and it really isn't a problem avoiding them. You have to be a bit less aggressive, though.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: Cyber on December 16, 2011, 06:27:09 pm
Look I understand why you may think kick-slashes are impossible to avoid, but it really is a footwork issue that can be worked on, regardless of low athletics. If you personally have a problem with kickslashes then it is something you can work on. Jump in a native duel server with a fighting pick and you should eventually learn how to deal with kick-slashing. If you're unwilling to practice on native, duel with a 40 reach hammer on your local crpg duel server until you learn how to avoid kicks. If you are facehugging them, then of course you're going to get kickslashed, but that doesn't mean that it is impossible to close distance. I am personally quite capable of dodging and punishing kickslashers of all qualities that I have encountered. With lower athletics it becomes harder, but really, the same principles can be applied to dodging and otherwise avoid kicks.

I don't think kickslashes are impossibole to avoid. I don't end up getting kickslashed very often, i have gotten used to avoiding them pretty well, but it is not something that you can avoid very easily like you claim agains't very good players. Specially if you have higher str character.

For example we recently spent some time with phyrex duelling. I had 21/15 build and i believe he had 15/24 and i had a lot heavier armor. Since he had much higher agy and lighter armor he was much faster then me, and if i was not moving foward constantly he could easily get out of my reach. So what i had to do was trying to keep a balance between being in a 1h weapon reach for your hit and staying out of kick reach, which is not very easy if you are a lot slower. It can be done ofc, but it's not something that is easy agains't very good players. Other option is trying to get close and just try to be as unpredictable with your movement  as possible and hope that he misses the kick, also if he misses it while you are close to him it is a lot easier for you to get at hes side and slash him before he can recover. Once again, i don't think kickslashing is impossibole to avoid but if you really are playing someone who knows what hes doing, it is not something that you can deal very easily, atleast with a high str build imo.

Also, more then half of the time i have been playing warband in the past 2 years i have been playing native aswell so i have decent amount of experience there. Native and cRPG are really different imo, and you can't really compare them on this matter. In there you all have equal stats, in this thread i think we are mainly talking about STR build with what imo it is a lot harder to avoid kicks, specially agains't high agy characters.
Title: Re: High Strength Shielder
Post by: San on December 17, 2011, 11:23:35 pm
Kicks are definitely a problem when you use one of the short 70-80 length weapons, too. It's difficult to both avoid the kick and be in a prime position where the opponent can't dodge or block anyways. But higher strength shielders are meant to be tanks anyways.

Hammers also give me a lot of trouble if I'm using a weapon below 75 length if the player has decent skill.


After asking about the builds of current shielders topping the charts in NA, all of them were strength-oriented (21/15 or 24/15). The mixture of good IF, PS, shield, and decent athletics allows the shielder to tank a few hits without being too slow or too weak.

I'm sure there are still many agi-based shielders who do very well, but I think they are in the minority at the moment.