cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Ereb on December 08, 2011, 02:00:24 pm

Title: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Ereb on December 08, 2011, 02:00:24 pm
What do you think is better for fights against multiple oponents, a high athletics 2h (15/24?) for kiting people around or 1h shielder (18/18?) ?
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Vibe on December 08, 2011, 02:02:24 pm
Both are fine, but I believe I've done better as a 1h shielder versus multiple enemies.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Kafein on December 08, 2011, 03:37:03 pm
Shielder. Smart enemies will hold different attacks.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Gurnisson on December 08, 2011, 04:22:46 pm
Quote from: Kafein on December 08, 2011, 03:37:03 pm
Shielder. Smart enemies will hold different attacks.

This
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Senni__Ti on December 08, 2011, 04:41:53 pm
I actually found the extra damage and mobility of 2h/polearm highly effective in 1 vs many; find it easier to come out of those situations alive with my 2h than with my shielder. Equally likely to die as any class really, best just to avoid such situations :P
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Kafein on December 08, 2011, 04:46:41 pm
Quote from: Senni__Ti on December 08, 2011, 04:41:53 pm
I actually found the extra damage and mobility of 2h/polearm highly effective in 1 vs many; find it easier to come out of those situations alive with my 2h than with my shielder. Equally likely to die as any class really, best just to avoid such situations :P

- low ping helps a lot
- agility helps a lot (elusive fly effect, made worse because of server lag)
- while 2h and 1h are different but comparable in 1 vs many, 2h have a very clear advantage in many vs 1.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 08, 2011, 05:37:39 pm
15/24 Shielder.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Fluffy_Muffin on December 08, 2011, 05:45:22 pm
Quote from: B3RS3RK on December 08, 2011, 05:37:39 pm
15/24 Shielder.

This + a 99 or more speed weapon and with some timing ability you are set to kill masses of noobs
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Gravoth_iii on December 08, 2011, 06:01:07 pm
15/24 with a 2h will work fine, or a long polearm. You will be able to keep your distance and just attack whenever you see a opening.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Kalam on December 08, 2011, 06:05:20 pm
12/24 shielder. Max out all your skills except IF. Use a light shield. If you don't mind arrows, 16/24 polearm works well.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Kafein on December 08, 2011, 06:29:55 pm
I would strongly advice against low str with cut 1h weapon. You need to kill people in a minimum of hits, especially in 1 vs many.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Gurnisson on December 08, 2011, 06:31:36 pm
Quote from: Kafein on December 08, 2011, 06:29:55 pm
I would strongly advice against low str with cut 1h weapon. You need to kill people in a minimum of hits, especially in 1 vs many.

Grosse Messer with overheads and left swings is good even with low ps
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Kophka on December 08, 2011, 06:32:20 pm
I've noticed that everyone seems to reply "shielder" to this, but in actuality, I've seen 2 hander/polearm fare much much better in 1 vs many fights.

The reason for this is that a shield slows you down incredibly. Shields also offer protection only in the front, enemy swings will often "go through" the sides of your shield if they are not directly in front of you. When you are using a shield, it often feels that the mesh is larger than the protection actually offered, with the "forcefield" effect being removed from crpg many months ago.

In my opinion, the best way to fight multilple enemies is to get a fast 2 hander or polearm (heh), and side swing like crazy. They have no penalty or "stun" for being blocked, so you can just continue to backpedal/spin/swing, and rack up kills as they hit each other trying to catch you. It's cheap and an abuse of mechanics, but hey, it works.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Kato on December 08, 2011, 07:47:14 pm
Quote from: Kophka on December 08, 2011, 06:32:20 pm
In my opinion, the best way to fight multilple enemies is to get a fast 2 hander or polearm (heh), and side swing like crazy. They have no penalty or "stun" for being blocked, so you can just continue to backpedal/spin/swing, and rack up kills as they hit each other trying to catch you. It's cheap and an abuse of mechanics, but hey, it works.

This work from time to time, but its viable only for tanks or in tight spaces and based on luck, i prefer high agi 2h 15/27 when you can select opponent and with right timing you can win no matter of luck (if there are not pikes, or ranged ofc :)).
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Sir_Ironlake on December 08, 2011, 07:59:04 pm
1h with no shield, 8 ath and good block skills
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Dezilagel on December 08, 2011, 08:50:36 pm
For slaying hordes of nubs trying to gank you: 2h/pole due to sheer range/damage (I'd pick 2h due to animations in that case, but both work well)

Killing several people who actually have a clue what they're doing: Shielder (pref high agi, and fast weapon as you will have few openings.)

Also: Those of you complaining about getting slowed down by shields - don't use the 8 weight ones. The ~5 weight ones work perfectly well and combined with short+light weapon (1h), you will outrun most 2h/pole of same agi.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on December 09, 2011, 02:51:33 pm
24 15 shielder, the extra power can make a real difference. The rest is just skill.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on December 09, 2011, 03:13:40 pm
+1, agi shielder need some pierce or blunt weapon to kill hard armored infantry, with 1h sword you will glance a lot, so with agi you will hunt some low-mid armored players, but with 24/15 you can fight vs all) just my opinion.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 09, 2011, 03:18:16 pm
Yo kophka, what you say is true, but a 15/24 Shielder for example has enough agi and athletics to even out the slowing down of his shields, thus making him the most effective against many enemies at once.

As a 2h or Polearm player, mostly all you can do against more than 2 Enemies is backpedal and block, sometimes strike but not often.Only really skilled Blockers manage to do that for longer than a few secs.So Just take the shield, backpedal and slash lightning fast with your Steel pick or something.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Teeth on December 09, 2011, 04:28:22 pm
7 athlethics or more, a decently speeded 2h or polearm. Requires a lot of practice before you can properly control a group vs you fight. If you learn it, its a great way to score some quick kills. Watch how good players handle such a situation.

Try to keep one enemy in between you and the rest, fight him, but once in a while target switch, I recommend a held overhead. See if you can hit the head. Sweetspot held hit and headhit is almost always a certain kill. Most of the time the guys in the back of the gank get caught off guard.Dont target switch too much, it will put you in danger and it becomes predictable.

If the approaching gank squad has a long spear, none of the above applies, run like hell

But yeah, anything that has 7 athlethics or more should be fine, even with heavy-ish armour.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Digglez on December 09, 2011, 11:05:14 pm
shielder easily.  steel pick for its speed & pierce or a faster blunt weapon like Flanged Mace
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: isatis on December 09, 2011, 11:23:28 pm
seem strange but the best I've done vs many is with this built: 30/6 thrower/2h (1oif 10 ps 5 pt 2wm 2ath) wep: mace 3 set of heavy axes

sending axes of love to ennemie seem to gather them together against you... and it seem like ally don,t want ot help you... (sigh)

so i was there gathering mob with axes and then swithcing to my tiny mace, getting in middle of this loving mob and they'll just glance on me (I was wearing ligth leather but 10 if...) while I'll keep punching them (10 ps 30 blunt is deadly even to tin can) so I often won 4 vs 1 situation with this shema: 1tk 1 guy stunned, stunned guy killed, whore cav coming bumping everyone except me and getting stuck, 1 easy kill on knocked foe, jump kill my old friendcav horse, killing the cav, another guy coming to ''help'' teamwound the guy I was dueling I got a free shot: knockdown and kill after, then last guy running, switching to axes, axe shot, last kill.

win

this is when people are bad the other scenario is:

running iin front of a clan, 4 hit, you die.

fail



so you can use this built it's alot of fun but beware of clan or good people in general.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Xant on December 10, 2011, 04:45:32 am
To sum up:

Best build vs many is a 1h shielder without a shield using a 2h polearm mainly focused in strength because you need to kill fast but with more agility than strength because you need to be fast.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: [Ant] on December 10, 2011, 06:04:08 am
You wanna kill hordes of noobs?

Ask Dimos. Then join an NA server.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: To Kill A Dead Horse on December 10, 2011, 06:51:19 am
I find that a 6-30 1h no shield build prevents you from getting in these situations.
2 PS 10 ATH 10 WM 10 Riding
Also works with a polearm build
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Rhaelys on December 10, 2011, 07:33:14 am
The standard melee build that I recommend to any 2H or Polearm users is quite effective in a one v. many situation. Of course, it relies on the player having some competency in knowing what he or she is doing, and a good command of blocking and footwork. But nevertheless:

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

Strength: 24
Agility: 15
Hit points: 75
Skills to attributes: 8

Ironflesh: 8
Power Strike: 8
Shield: 2
Athletics: 5
Weapon Master: 0

<Either>
Two Handed: 111
Polearm: 111

0 WM because WM is completely unnecessary for melee combat, especially 2H/Polearms. 2 Shield helps protect your incredibly alluring body from archers, throwing, and weaker crossbows. And besides, your focus is not swinging your 2H or Polearm at the speed of light; it is to cause maximal damage with each swing. This point needs to be re-emphasized: the more damage you do with each swing, the higher likelihood you have of killing your enemies and suddenly turning a 3 on 1 into a more manageable 2 on 1, or a 2 on 1 into a definitely manageable 1 on 1.

This is not to say that 1H shielders are not designed for one vs many situations; in fact, they're at their strongest when they can attract multiple enemies at once, because that means that the enemy team is committing more to taking out just a single person (you). I would still recommend a Strength build, however, perhaps along the order of something like this:

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

Strength: 24
Agility: 15
Hit points: 69
Skills to attributes: 8

Ironflesh: 5
Power Strike: 8
Shield: 5
Athletics: 5
Weapon Master: 0

One Handed: 111

Your shield will help absorb multiple attacks that would otherwise be unblockable, and it is up to you to seize each breathing moment to slice at an enemy's face and hopefully take them out. Your shield will not last forever, especially against axes, so in my opinion it is better to maximize the damage you can do with each strike.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Cyber on December 10, 2011, 12:14:24 pm
Depends on what your going for. If you just want to kill punch of newbies on some public server you might aswell go for 2h with 24/15 for extra dmg and IF and hack through them, ofc if you fight 2 competent players they will immediately kill you since they can just attack from 2 different directions and you can't outrun them.

 If you want to fight players who know what they are doing with 2h, go for for 15/24 so if you get lucky you might be able to use you speed to seperate them but really good players still won't let you do that. However i think that the best build for fighting good players 1vsX is 18/18 shielder because it's the only way you can block 2 directions at once and you might get a good chance to strike back. Though if you really are fighting competent players it dosen't matter who you are, okocha, phyrex, Kpu etc all die the same way in 1v2 if both opponents know what to do and don't fail hard, you just have to hope they suck and make mistakes.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Lennu on December 10, 2011, 02:20:08 pm
2handed/poles get good range, and that helps a lot. With 7 ath and medium/light armor + some manual blocking you can avoid getting overwhelmed and still attack back. ofc 1 pikeman will still fuck you over  :lol:
 1h+shielders are slow so there is alwas the risk that the enemies will simply surround you, so you won't be able to block all directions.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: bagge on December 10, 2011, 03:28:33 pm
Or get a bow and kite, kite, kite, kite, kite, kite, kite them melees
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 10, 2011, 04:12:16 pm
How funny.NA players reccomend 24/15

Eu players reccomend 15/24
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Fartface on December 10, 2011, 04:37:03 pm
12/24
4 ps 8 shield 8 wm 8 ath .
steel buckler and any good 1h
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Corwin on December 10, 2011, 04:49:32 pm
The point in this kind of situation is to dance between them and let them slash each other. So basically, having 8 ath is the best, weather it is twohander or shielder.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Fartface on December 10, 2011, 05:25:13 pm
for an shielder just dance between them, for an 2hander i usualy just run a bit away turn around with thrust and keep fighting them 1v1 by placing them behind each other if they get close u run again.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Teeth on December 10, 2011, 05:37:05 pm
Quote from: B3RS3RK on December 10, 2011, 04:12:16 pm
How funny.NA players reccomend 24/15

Eu players reccomend 15/24
NA players are morons. What good is strength when people are hitting you from multiple directions. Although 5 athlethics is probably above average in NA.

Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 10, 2011, 05:48:10 pm
Quote from: SgtTeeh on December 10, 2011, 05:37:05 pm
NA players are morons. What good is strength when people are hitting you from multiple directions. Although 5 athlethics is probably above average in NA.

I know, right?

I just though it funny that its so extremely obvious that the majority of NA players prefer strength builds while its the other way round in EU.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Digglez on December 10, 2011, 06:39:47 pm
Quote from: SgtTeeh on December 10, 2011, 05:37:05 pm
NA players are morons. What good is strength when people are hitting you from multiple directions. Although 5 athlethics is probably above average in NA.

lol what a horrible argument.  STR = ability to take hits and dish them out.  Dancing around 5 players you are BOUND to get hit at some point.  Str is the difference between life and death when those hits come.  LOL at you magical EU fairies that dance around in cloth armor in 8 athletics.  Sure you might hit a str build 4-5 times doing less than half their health before they ONE SHOT YOU with a sword.

8 athletics is about completely useless unless you plan on backpedaling your entire life, in which case any decent thrower will rape your face.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: SixThumbs on December 10, 2011, 06:44:02 pm
That's why I endorse 18/24.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Xant on December 10, 2011, 06:44:07 pm
You can't dish out hits when you are getting hit from all directions and insta-die. With enough athletics you can only fight 1 person at a time. STR builds = good for killing a lot of bad players. Agi builds = necessary for killing decent/good players.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Digglez on December 10, 2011, 07:06:25 pm
Quote from: Xant on December 10, 2011, 06:44:07 pm
You can't dish out hits when you are getting hit from all directions and insta-die. With enough athletics you can only fight 1 person at a time. STR builds = good for killing a lot of bad players. Agi builds = necessary for killing decent/good players.

Clearly you have no knowledge or experience with 1h+shield KATA; bouncing, weaving and jumping thru groups of enemies...exploiting openings and inciting confusion and frustration, resulting in massive tw'ing. Its infinitely more deadly and FASTER than back pedal spam.


While this is gun kata, may it serve some inspiration for ya
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PQghjPb8pM&feature=related
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Xant on December 10, 2011, 07:07:12 pm
No, it's not. Without high enough athletics, your back will be turned against at least one opponent. Then you get hit.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Kafein on December 10, 2011, 08:16:58 pm
Quote from: Digglez on December 10, 2011, 06:39:47 pm
lol what a horrible argument.  STR = ability to take hits and dish them out.  Dancing around 5 players you are BOUND to get hit at some point.  Str is the difference between life and death when those hits come.  LOL at you magical EU fairies that dance around in cloth armor in 8 athletics.  Sure you might hit a str build 4-5 times doing less than half their health before they ONE SHOT YOU with a sword.

8 athletics is about completely useless unless you plan on backpedaling your entire life, in which case any decent thrower will rape your face.

Then you get raped by the horde of skilled 21/24 agility 2h EU elitists. Sure str helps doing kills when you hit people randomly, but when you control things and don't bounce, you don't need it. And 2h never bounce except when you fuck up (very) badly.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Teeth on December 10, 2011, 08:26:28 pm
Surviving hits has no use if multiple opponents can continue dishing them out. When 5 opponents approach you when I have 5 athlethics, atleast in EU, youre fucked. Cause they will get around you and hit you to death. Who cares if that takes ten hits if you can't do anything after the first hit.

With 7 athlethics and heavy armour I can control the fight. I can keep one opponent between me and the others all the time, slowly killing them on by one. A 0.6 second held head hit pretty much oneshots everyone even with 6 PS.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Lennu on December 10, 2011, 08:33:31 pm
Str doens't really help against many enemies. Even if they were using a hammer, your str wont save you from getting stunned by those hits you'll take, when agi at least helps you to stay away out of their reach. Getting stunlocked will kill you anyways, no matter what stats.

Str is important when attacking back, while agi helps to avoid swings. In STR focused NA servers, you'll need less agi since your opponents will be slower.
On AGI preferring EU your opponents will be fast aswell, so you need to able to match them in speed or get ganged.

And, if your opponents are noobs, like Digglez suggest. Go for str so you can kill them faster.
However, if your opponents are just as good as you are, and you have too str based build. You will get hit and stunlocked by their simultaneous swings. This is where STR and IF will only help you by letting you get hit one more time before you're dead.

STR allows your attacks to do more damage.
Agi makes you faster. You'll be able to avoid getting ganged, and ganging enemies is easier for you. However you'll deal less damage.

Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Xant on December 10, 2011, 08:58:44 pm
The ultimate answer, obviously, is an eight athletics shielder with relatively light equipment.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Tot. on December 10, 2011, 09:03:01 pm
High STR build might be viable in such situation only if you have loomed heavy armor and you hope for bullshit glance mechanics to kick in. And pray that noone has piercing weapon.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Xant on December 10, 2011, 09:04:34 pm
Nah, no heavy armor is good enough to make 6+ PS attacks glance, especially when held.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Tot. on December 10, 2011, 09:52:59 pm
Well, from my experience with 6 ps and MW one-handed cut glances occured quite often vs. lordly gothic set. So it does actually make a difference.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Fartface on December 11, 2011, 03:50:53 pm
With the gothic plate ur just gonna get swarmed , u wil get strikes from evrywhere and ul be to slow to use footwork to move out of there reach.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: Maximus101 on December 11, 2011, 11:34:54 pm
2 hander high ath. Use your footwork and make it so they can't swarm you. This way the shield is useless and the length and lolstab animation and the way you are able to weave in and out of ppl is so much better with 2 handed agi builds.
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: MrShine on December 12, 2011, 05:36:54 am
Best build:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Best build for one vs. many?
Post by: yedrellow on December 14, 2011, 06:33:05 am
Group fighting is possible and effective with a large range of builds, but it is important for you to realise that the techniques of group fighting must vary based on the build you have.

Agility based characters must make use of their high athletics to string groups of opponents in to more easily managable 'chunks' of 3 or less. This way they can isolate individual players and prevent players from simultaneously holding. This means that yes, they need to kite. Characters using 101+ speed weapons with approximately 180 weapon proficiency will notice that they should be able to beat outranging swings with a sudden target change and left swing. Make sure you hit the head as your lower powerstrike means that you need to hit the head to be dangerous. Remember that extreme athletics builds will die in 1-2 hits depending on speed bonus and hit location, so you have to be careful.

Balanced Characters are generally on the order of 5-7 athletics and will not have a speed advantage on the group of opponents. This means that it is impossible to 'string them' in to smaller more easily managable chunks as the group will inevitably catch up on them. This is where group fighting becomes more complicated, but shouldn't be foreign to anyone experienced with group fighting in native. If you are versing groups which are synchronised through the use of voip, it will become difficult without a shield, as they will attempt almost simultaneous strikes and stun hitting.

The general idea of group based fighting with equivalent speed is you must actively suppress as many people as you can at once. This means that if you get 'focused' on an individual opponent you have lost. If you are versing an group of 3, you will find that you will be able to actively suppress atleast 2 of those players at once, you must move around to keep the third from in turn suppressing you.

The simple algorithm for this is: Block player 1 (or chamber if the opportunity presents itself), drag chamber to or attack player 2. To improve your group fighting further you must learn how to keep the number of players in striking range of you equal to or less than 2 and make sure you integrate attack cancelling to target changing. This is because if you judge that a player has beaten you to a swing, or you have a number of players greater than 2 in strike range without teamhits, you must be able to attack cancel, block and switch target again. The use of tilde tapping may be required.

Note that I have not gone in to the use of group fighting techniques when you're vastly outspeeded. I have not experimented with this, but I presume you must rely on forcing thuds/teamhits to get anywhere. Target changing will still be important.

Now an interesting group fighter I have is my 9ath shielder, (10-27), which can prevent simultaneous hits using a shield while maintaining deadly on the target change headshots. Due to the low shield skill (4), he changes to 1h no shield in 1v1 and is perfectly specced to hunt down groups of unmounted ranged.

If you intend to group fighting with a 24-15 polearmer I recommend limiting your reach to 120ish, or your opponents will abuse backswing stun/blocking/interupting. The longaxe is useful for this as it is long enough to keep opponents at a distance, damaging enough to kill in 1 hit and short enough to prevent backswing block.