cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Teeth on December 02, 2011, 04:27:14 pm

Title: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Teeth on December 02, 2011, 04:27:14 pm
With the great hybridization nerf archers lost a lot of their ability to fight effectively in melee. To use a proper bow and have sufficient ammunition they would have to use either a 0 slot or a 1 slot weapon. Both aren't too fantastic. Combined with low wpf and nearly no armour for maximum archery accuracy, they basically can't do shit in melee.

First I thought this change was a good thing. It would be unfair if you could be an effective archer, and then when the enemy closes in, be decent at melee too. But this resulted in archers running away whenever the enemy got near. Which I think is one of the most annoying things in this game, almost as annoying as roofcamping. Something which might partly be caused by the same thing.

I think archers should be able to be more decent in melee. Alternatively, the hardcore archers could be made very slow, so they can't run away. Two ways to fix the same problem, make them better at melee, or make them unable to run.

Ofcourse being better at archery should cost them in melee power, but I doubt this running behaviour was intended. I'd rather have a good fight then a chase. If you give up the chase they start shooting you, incredibly frustrating.

I have a few ideas to fix the running, if you agree with me feel free to suggest your own ideas.

- Make bows when held very heavy, so archers won't be able to run fast while holding their bow, forcing them to switch to a melee weapon and fight or run with the melee weapon. Might need to buff archery if this gets implemented.

- Make two sets of arrows cost 1 slot, so they can have a proper melee weapon.

- Make drawing when running impossible, atleast for the two slot big bows.

- Make the wpf decrease with armour less significant, so they can wear some armour, if they can pay it.

- Decrease acceleration when holding a bow specifically, leave their topspeed intact though.

Ofcourse ladders should be removed regardless of anything, for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 02, 2011, 04:28:37 pm
Quote from: SgtTeeh on December 02, 2011, 04:27:14 pm
- Make two sets of arrows cost 1 slot, so they can have a proper melee weapon.


Im fine with everything except for this.

They shall take 1 Stack if they want a decent melee weapon.
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Dalhi on December 02, 2011, 04:36:37 pm
Make them use only one quiver, it will insist on archers to take part in malee fights as they will have less arrows. On the other hand they will camp more  :lol: ... not good idea  :|
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Kophka on December 02, 2011, 06:11:33 pm
That's actually a great idea! Also, make my sword throw bolts of force while you're at it. That way, EVERYONE can fight at both short and long range.
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: RandomDude on December 02, 2011, 08:49:00 pm
Archers correct me if im wrong but the archers who would normally stand and fight if engaged in melee do now anyway.
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Gravoth_iii on December 02, 2011, 09:06:37 pm
No thanks, the age of robocop archer + 2h is over already it was crazy and i do not want it back. Not even a shield would help against a roboarcher since they can simply fight you in melee being pretty much just as good.

No, no, no and no, get a shield. :)
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Bobthehero on December 02, 2011, 09:10:01 pm
Go to hell Gravoth the shield slows you down too much to keep up with the archers.

I had a plated archer with 70 wpf a longsword a hornbow and some arrows, never ran out of arrows and I could melee good. But now its out of cash and I rspec'd it as a 1h archer with 2 stacks of arrows to play in siege.


Edit: A shield is good to block arrows, sure, but the weight means you'll never reach the fucker pew pewing you. The archer should be mostly screwed if engaged in melee and cav should rape them to hell and back.
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Gravoth_iii on December 02, 2011, 09:28:45 pm
Quote from: Bobthehero on December 02, 2011, 09:10:01 pm
Go to hell Gravoth the shield slows you down too much to keep up with the archers.

I had a plated archer with 70 wpf a longsword a hornbow and some arrows, never ran out of arrows and I could melee good. But now its out of cash and I rspec'd it as a 1h archer with 2 stacks of arrows to play in siege.


Edit: A shield is good to block arrows, sure, but the weight means you'll never reach the fucker pew pewing you. The archer should be mostly screwed if engaged in melee and cav should rape them to hell and back.

Just use the shield to block arrows, dont engage archers in 1on1 instead try pushing them out in the open, atleast thats what i try to do.
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: bagge on December 02, 2011, 09:44:41 pm
Quote from: SgtTeeh on December 02, 2011, 04:27:14 pm
- Make two sets of arrows cost 1 slot, so they can have a proper melee weapon.

This would be jummy in strategus
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Patricia on December 03, 2011, 12:28:36 am
Quote from: Bobthehero on December 02, 2011, 09:10:01 pm
Go to hell Gravoth the shield slows you down too much to keep up with the archers.

I had a plated archer with 70 wpf a longsword a hornbow and some arrows, never ran out of arrows and I could melee good. But now its out of cash and I rspec'd it as a 1h archer with 2 stacks of arrows to play in siege.


Edit: A shield is good to block arrows, sure, but the weight means you'll never reach the fucker pew pewing you. The archer should be mostly screwed if engaged in melee and cav should rape them to hell and back.

You can still catch archers with a shield, HURR DURR I'M BOB I RUN A FUCKING 30/9 BUILD IN FULL PLATE, SHIELDS ARE TOO HEAVY CAN'T CATCH ARCHERS.
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Bobthehero on December 03, 2011, 01:35:36 am
I used to play a shielder and I have a shielder alt.

And I got upkeep raped recently, so its back to the shitty paper gambeson.
And I have 31 strenght and throwing daggers to kill archers.
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Leshma on December 03, 2011, 02:15:24 am
Quote from: Gravoth_iii on December 02, 2011, 09:06:37 pm
No thanks, the age of robocop archer + 2h is over already it was crazy and i do not want it back. Not even a shield would help against a roboarcher since they can simply fight you in melee being pretty much just as good.

You're one of the better polearmers on EU server and you have that special thing called polestun. You'll do just fine.

And not many archers are good in melee. Many can block decently but they aren't good at attacking.

On topic: For this to happen, slot system should be removed.

And if that ever happens and WM get buffed a bit I'm 100% sure that Chase would instantly respec into such hybrid archer.

Even I would install the game again and respec my nearly lvl 34 pure 2H to lvl 33 archer-melee hybrid.

I can imagine the faces of those who get close to Chase and then he pulls out his Danish GS and annihilate them just as efficient as he does now :D

Yeah give melee power to archer, we'll all be archers in that case.

Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 03, 2011, 02:18:13 am
Why dont we just give lazer blasters to everyone.100 pierce, 100 missile speed, 100 speed rating, 1000gold and 0 slot.
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Leshma on December 03, 2011, 02:32:46 am
I actually want this to happen.

I do want to play sub 7 armor weight (I already decoded what I'll wear), 160 archery wpf, 100 2h wpf lvl 34 archer with 18 str 24 agi, 6 PS/PD 8 WM/AGI. I would be using loomed longsword, loomed horn bow and one (two if they make it possible) stack(s) of loomed bodkin arrows (34 total).

My armor would be fully loomed as well and I would have 13 head, 40 body and 35 leg armor. And I would be good looking archer on top of that.

100 active wpf and longsword would make me pretty strong and annoying in melee and I would still be able to kill most people in 3 or 4 shots.

Paul, make it happen!
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on December 03, 2011, 02:36:30 am
Keep in mind that any buff to archers (who pay more skills then usual due to being able to hurt anyone anywhere) will also buff horse archers (who pay the highest of any "class" skill wise and equipment wise for obvious reasons).

Be careful what you ask for.
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Torost on December 03, 2011, 02:54:16 am
just make a 0slot weapon that is not totally useless and archers will risk the meleefight.
Most archers suck at meleefighting, poor blockingskills, low armour, and no points in PS or 1 hand wpf.  The current weapons do practically no damage to opponent unless they are facing peasants. Low range is fine, low speed is fine, but the shitty damage makes them only good for blocking while fleeing.
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Bobthehero on December 03, 2011, 03:18:10 am
A new 0 slot weapon would not change shit, most archer using a hammer will just block a hit or two and then run away.
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Gurnisson on December 03, 2011, 03:49:12 am
No thanks. Having been an archer/xbow for most of my warband career (native and crpg), I know that I prefer low risk/high reward over high risk/high reward, and most of the good ranged my old friends feel the same. The ones who run to shoot now, would still do it, at least the majority. If you couldn't run with rus bow or long bow you would see even more mw horn bow + mw bodkin guys. They would machine gun as much as they could with the run-and-shoot tactic, even though they would be a tad slower, before you could reach them. When you reach them they would pull out one of the better melee weapons in the game, which would be a tad more annoying than the hammer/langes etc.

I don't think this would fix it, because it's more of a mentality problem. :|
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Bobthehero on December 03, 2011, 04:56:51 am
Low risk high reward is wrong IMO.
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: owens on December 03, 2011, 09:00:34 am
ask an australian player about the melle skills of geoff_the_clever


1 IF 3 PS  and he reps fine
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Bobthehero on December 03, 2011, 09:26:50 am
Autralia is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: LordRichrich on December 03, 2011, 12:21:55 pm
Templar_Parre...
Me when I was an archer
... All the Templars with archer alts
I mean really, the whole point of 0 slot weaps is to block not fight. Archers have low PS but can move pretty fast, take a military sickle with 70 2h wpf. If you're good and have atleast 4 PS you can take the langes messer. alteratively, pick up a weapon from the battle field. Drop your bow, kill the guy in melee then go pick your shit back up
Archers are ranged, they shouldn't have higher melee capability than they already do
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Black Wind on December 03, 2011, 01:39:47 pm
I agree with increasing the running deceleration whilst drawing an arrow, or making bows hinder movement speed. This is the only way to go about this issue.

If you make archers better in melee, they will often still run away and kite you, in a sense. This is because archery is their strong point. They hit harder with arrows than they do with a sword, so why not maximize that advamtage? It's common sense to avoid melee if you're specialized for archery.

However, archers should not be able to run away, and pick off slower pursuers because their build allows it. Therefore, I believe it's a sensible idea that bows slow down movement speed.


It would throw the balance out the window if you made them decent at melee. Even still, if you're good, even the 0 slot hammer will be enough to bring the beat down on a lesser player, I do it on my archer very often.

I use:
1x Rus Bow
2x Bodkin Arrows
1x Hammer


And I do fine at shooting, and better in melee.
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Bulzur on December 03, 2011, 01:55:21 pm
I'll still continue to fight in melee, if the guy managed to catch up with me, he deserves a melee fight.

And sometimes, this black dildo is just overpowered with 4 PS and 60 wpf...

Why you ask ? Nothing rewarding in shooting down a cav, archers and 2h, cause... it's your prupose you know. But when you manage to win in melee as an archer, it just feels so good. Of course, pew-pew spammer wouldn't know what i mean...

Equipment :
Mw horn bow
Mw Tatar arrows
Black didlo (or... mace)
Construction Material.

(click to show/hide)

Low ammo, low range : choose your targets more wisely
Tatar arrows : You're not here to shoot down Tanks, but cav and archers, mainly.
Melee weapon + common blocking skills : Surprise the melee users, and spam with your footwork.
CM : Keep it, and with it's 12 weight, it also hinders a bit your movement.


With this equipment, every day is a challenge, and it's very rewarding when you do good.

Of course, some people can't have this mentality, since the only thing making them move forward is... the k/d ratio. I look at all thoses hungry bastards, using every possible mean to get easy kills, sometimes even taking pleasure in Tking at the end of the round, since it actually adds to your kill number. Thoses are the ones ruining newcomer's experience. But they're also adding to the joy, when you actually defeat them.

Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Kafein on December 03, 2011, 02:54:03 pm
Quote from: Black Wind on December 03, 2011, 01:39:47 pm
If you make archers better in melee, they will often still run away and kite you, in a sense. This is because archery is their strong point. They hit harder with arrows than they do with a sword, so why not maximize that advamtage?

Well that's exactly what needs to be changed. For example, if PD becomes a 4 str requirement skill (possible with WSE), then the average PS of archers will hopefully increase due to the skill points spared. Archery wpf should also be similar to melee wpf in the sense of being highly degressive. Currently, most archers try to maximise their archery wpf at all costs, which means they are not that good in melee (although you don't need wpf at all to use the OP mace).

Definetly nerf the archery part (accuracy and damage mostly, especially the pierce vs armor thing) and buff the melee part.
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on December 04, 2011, 07:32:37 pm
No it would not increase the PS, I would first murder you for ruining my level 33 character, and secondly I would just convert more skill points into str for a high PD, then dump any spare skills in Athletics first,then Iron Flesh second.
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Kafein on December 04, 2011, 07:58:13 pm
Quote from: Tears of Destiny on December 04, 2011, 07:32:37 pm
No it would not increase the PS, I would first murder you for ruining my level 33 character, and secondly I would just convert more skill points into str for a high PD, then dump any spare skills in Athletics first,then Iron Flesh second.

Well ofc. everyone would get a free respec. It would either decrease the amount of PD you got, or decrease your athletics. No matter how you look at it, with the same amount of attribute points you'll have more free skill points. Sure, You can convert them, but at that point investing in PS is probably a better idea (8 skill points needed for 4 STR -> 1 more PD level unlocked).
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on December 04, 2011, 11:27:38 pm
Actually to my total amusement it allows me to still pew pew but even better kiting abilities. 2 less powerdraw meant increasing athletics from 5 to 7.

(click to show/hide)
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I understand what you are trying to do though.
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Rumblood on December 04, 2011, 11:42:01 pm
Quote from: Kafein on December 04, 2011, 07:58:13 pm
Well ofc. everyone would get a free respec. It would either decrease the amount of PD you got, or decrease your athletics. No matter how you look at it, with the same amount of attribute points you'll have more free skill points. Sure, You can convert them, but at that point investing in PS is probably a better idea (8 skill points needed for 4 STR -> 1 more PD level unlocked).

You do realize that there has been ENTIRE PATCHES designed specifically to REDUCE hybridization?? Why would they then put in crappy mechanics to then encourage it??
Title: Re: Give archers some of their melee power back!
Post by: Adalwulf on December 05, 2011, 07:48:24 am
This is my favorite archer build for a close support role. Good for getting in close and getting back fast enough.

Strength: 15
Agility: 21
Hit points: 60
Skills to attributes: 2
Ironflesh: 5
Power Strike: 5
Athletics: 7
Power Draw: 5
Weapon Master: 7
Archery: 163

There you go hybrid build that I use and many others do. stop useless buff archers :P we are fine.