cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Tristan on November 29, 2011, 06:41:43 pm

Title: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Tristan on November 29, 2011, 06:41:43 pm
Dammit I hate whine threads. I really do, yet I find myself writing one right here, right now.

I don't care about nerfs & Buffs, they are meant to be. Sometimes they are overdone, sometimes not enough.

What I care about is being a carebear and having spent time looming items that fitted my theme. Of course min/maxing my theme.

With the new armor weight reevaluations that compromises between carebearing and min/maxing have now been made utterly obsolete.

Wtf are you talkiing about, you might still think?!

Tunic over mail. Rather that Heraldic mails that are in every way better looking for any clan member now have the same weight values as a tunic over mail.
It honestly make me feel quite a bit but-hurt, that hours of deliberation between carebearing and effectiveness with one stroke have been made invalid and redundant.

This is a huge fucking tweak. Does it make the game more balanced? Quite possibly, maybe for the better, but thank you for de-evaluating hours of work with one masterstroke.
Tunic over mail? price down by 50%
Heraldics mails? Price up by 100%

Fuck it I'm pissed. (Yeah major balancing fucks over peoples time/value ratio.)

Edit: Yes I am talking about my looms.

- Tunic over mails make clan switching color switching impossible. Hence heraldic mails always better to fit your current theme.
- You just made tunic over mail's completely redundant but for the most crazy ass people. Brilliant work right there.

Edit 2:
- In short, all of us with loomed armors that wanted to fit our clans theme have just go polestunned.
- But but but we are going to make a new armor with heraldics that are lighter?
- why do I care? I just wated three loom points on a former light armor now heavy!!! GIVE ME BACK MY LOOM points...
- Its like making a sword a polearm. Fuck it!

- more rage....
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on November 29, 2011, 06:47:52 pm
Whining and bitching is relevant when there's legitimate bugs or glitches or when things just don't work.  The only time I don't like when people bitch are when they are complaining about how certain classes are too hard to kill or are overpowered. 

You're right to complain about this.  They shouldn't be making massive balance tweaks to the game, it's why long time players stop playing.  Nothing is so unbalanced that it warrants massive gameplay changes to certain classes/equipment with every patch.  I do like some things they have patched with some of their massive tweaks, but I still think it's unjustified, and time that could be well spent elsewhere (promoting and fixing strategus maybe?)
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Vexus on November 29, 2011, 06:48:44 pm
They became same weight because they pretty much are the same armour look closer and you'll notice it too.

Now I won't say they did right as they should have implemented something else cheaper for the gap between lamellar and tunic over mail sets but with this shit of increased weight (Which was not needed) now we can't say anything apart of being fucked.
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Camaris on November 29, 2011, 06:54:10 pm
I dont mind about the changes.
I got a heradlic mail and lost armor on it.
Ok its now cheaper but the amount of change is just irrelevant to me.

I chose it cause i liked it. If you chose things cause you wanted to min/max you
should live with it cause it is sure it could happen. Perhaps you should have loomed
the armor you liked most in the first time not looking 100% at its stats.

And tbh i dont understand how this change in any way is hurting you so much?
How? Where does it hurt you? I dont understand it.

Actually they did some really cool changes.
Surcoat and Tabard got the same price. Surcoat got less body but more foot armor.
Thats exactly how those armors look like. One has more protection to feets the other has
a better body armor.
Heraldic and tunic over mail are the same models... why shouldnt they protect in the same way????
It´s just a logic change.
Sorry that your minmaxing stood in the way of good changes...

PS: the only thing i dont understand is why heraldic mail with tunic has better armor then surcoat or tabard.
It actually would have been the perfect heraldic for archers and could have been balanced into that price and weight category.

Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on November 29, 2011, 07:02:52 pm
I dont mind about the changes.
I got a heradlic mail and lost armor on it.
Ok its now cheaper but the amount of change is just irrelevant to me.

I chose it cause i liked it. If you chose things cause you wanted to min/max you
should live with it cause it is sure it could happen. Perhaps you should have loomed
the armor you liked most in the first time not looking 100% at its stats.

And tbh i dont understand how this change in any way is hurting you so much?
How? Where does it hurt you? I dont understand it.

Actually they did some really cool changes.
Surcoat and Tabard got the same price. Surcoat got less body but more foot armor.
Thats exactly how those armors look like. One has more protection to feets the other has
a better body armor.
Heraldic and tunic over mail are the same models... why shouldnt they protect in the same way????
It´s just a logic change.
Sorry that your minmaxing stood in the way of good changes...

The problem is that people have skills and equipment chosen based on current statistics for the equipment and classes.  They dedicate lots of time into these classes and getting loomed equipment.  Then one day their equipment stats change, and they can no longer do the same things with their class they could the day before.

You can't see anything wrong with that and why some people might have a problem with it?  Seriously, it's not hard to see the viewpoint.
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: HarunYahya on November 29, 2011, 07:03:08 pm
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Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Camaris on November 29, 2011, 07:07:04 pm
The problem is that people have skills and equipment chosen based on current statistics for the equipment and classes.  They dedicate lots of time into these classes and getting loomed equipment.  Then one day their equipment stats change, and they can no longer do the same things with their class they could the day before.

You can't see anything wrong with that and why some people might have a problem with it?  Seriously, it's not hard to see the viewpoint.

I just cant see which armor got such a huge change that you cant play like you did before the patch.
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Tristan on November 29, 2011, 07:11:54 pm
Camaris, you missed my point.

My point is, if I had known that Tunic over mail would weigh as much as heraldic I would have chosen Heraldic simply because IT LOOKS BETTER and it makes it possible to CHANGE THEME and COLORS without wasting or trading your loom. In effect it's a more flexible armor to a carebear. If you don't care how you look it doesn't matter.

IM A CAREBEAR.

And my armor just lost it's only asset... being yellow. Well it's still yellow but now in a different armor class. If I had known that heraldic and yellow tunic over mail would weigh the same I would have chosen that armor.

Make any difference between the armors, but do NOT make them the same. Then lower the armor value or anything. This is just a direct competition of my loom points against the heraldic, which basically devalued my looms.
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Blondin on November 29, 2011, 07:22:37 pm
Don't want to troll you, but it's strange that you are talking of "work" to obtain heirlooms, i don't feel like working when i play a game, otherwise i just don't play.
I know that there is reward for grinding, but i don't play only for rewards, the meaning is to have fun in game not to have the uber gear on my char page.

Tbh, i didn't play since patch, but even if my looms were nerfed, it will not stop me to play again, may be i'll change my style or i will just accept patch changes as i know that everybody will have the same changes (so balance still the same).
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Camaris on November 29, 2011, 07:23:27 pm
Camaris, you missed my point.

My point is, if I had known that Tunic over mail would weigh as much as heraldic I would have chosen Heraldic simply because IT LOOKS BETTER and it makes it possible to CHANGE THEME and COLORS without wasting or trading your loom. In effect it's a more flexible armor to a carebear. If you don't care how you look it doesn't matter.

IM A CAREBEAR.

And my armor just lost it's only asset... being yellow. Well it's still yellow but now in a different armor class. If I had known that heraldic and yellow tunic over mail would weigh the same I would have chosen that armor.

Make any difference between the armors, but do NOT make them the same. Then lower the armor value or anything. This is just a direct competition of my loom points against the heraldic, which basically devalued my looms.

But you do see that both armors look the same and there have been already a lot of people asking why they dont have the same values?
If a change makes sense then it should be done. This one makes sense. Sorry that you now have a yellow tunic over mail and not a heraldic one.
Sell it. Buy a new one.
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Joker86 on November 29, 2011, 07:25:26 pm
Perhaps the devs will be kind enough to change your loomed yellow tunic for a loomed heraldic one? I mean: having tweaked the items would justify this.
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Dalhi on November 29, 2011, 07:28:05 pm
In this kind of cases they always say the same ---> use marketplace, and you should do it  :lol:


PS I have lordly red tunic over mail and I feel fine with the latest changes, 1,6 more on weight is not much if you ask me, I do feel slight difference in my movement, but nothing that matters to much.
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Tristan on November 29, 2011, 07:28:51 pm
But you do see that both armors look the same and there have been already a lot of people asking why they dont have the same values?
If a change makes sense then it should be done. This one makes sense. Sorry that you now have a yellow tunic over mail and not a heraldic one.
Sell it. Buy a new one.

But who in their right mind would prefer yellow tunic over heraldic?
Same stats, just less options. If I threw in another 100k maybe... Else I think not...
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Patricia on November 29, 2011, 07:29:40 pm
Perhaps the devs will be kind enough to change your loomed yellow tunic for a loomed heraldic one? I mean: having tweaked the items would justify this.

Givin' them too much credits.
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Dalhi on November 29, 2011, 07:32:05 pm
But who in their right mind would prefer yellow tunic over heraldic?

I would, if I were HRE member  :lol:
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Tristan on November 29, 2011, 07:33:38 pm
In this kind of cases they always say the same ---> use marketplace, and you should do it  :lol:

Only accept it if I had another 100k - 200k on top. In effect my heirlooms lost 200k gold.
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Lech on November 29, 2011, 07:56:31 pm
PS: the only thing i dont understand is why heraldic mail with tunic has better armor then surcoat or tabard.
It actually would have been the perfect heraldic for archers and could have been balanced into that price and weight category.

Look at the arms.  It's perfectly reasonable that they have higher body value.

And op, you lost some cRPG money for not figuring out that those are one and the same model, deal with it. Why don't you piked up the one which looks better ?
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Tristan on November 29, 2011, 08:21:08 pm
Because it is a lighter armor. Now it changed to a med. armor?!
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Lech on November 29, 2011, 08:44:16 pm
Because it is a lighter armor. Now it changed to a med. armor?!

They use the same model, why you assumed that the one you chosen will stay lighter ? :shock:
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Tristan on November 29, 2011, 08:58:44 pm
No one told me Tunic over mail would get bumped to medium armor?
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Kafein on November 29, 2011, 09:10:29 pm
They use the same model, why you assumed that the one you chosen will stay lighter ? :shock:

That's like saying to the Haitians, "why you assumed that there wouldn't be a earthquake today ? :shock:"


My guess is, the dev team prefers hiding the imbalances behind several curtains of fucking up people's equipment by changing it for no reason (no suggestions related to this, no justification, no announcement). Instead of really experimenting with it, carefully changing one factor at a time. There wasn't a single balance patch that got it's job done without massive collateral damage. And as always, players have to suck it up when their heirlooms become shit due to collateral damage, even when there is zero balance argument backing the nerf.

Dev team doing it wrong. Not letting people choosing what they want to stop using and begin using after balance changes means inaccurate statistics. The time it takes to react to that kind of change is enormous for an average player, thus the balance mechanism goes extremely slowly (change -> adaptation -> revelation of imbalance -> more accurate change -> adaptation etc.) . The statistics are completely unreliable, as people won't use what they think is what they should use (they got heirloomed X while they think Y is better, but can't change to Y because they got no heirloom refund and the marketplace price difference is not in their favor). Adaptation to change is either very slow or nonexistent, even though there still are imbalances, and so the balancing cycle is broken.

This "no refund" strategy only has negative effects : pissing players off and obfuscating the game balance. Through allowing people to get back heirloom points for all the modified items, the dev team would go a long way towards balancing the game. More freedom means imbalances revealed a lot faster and with less uncertainty.
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Keshian on November 29, 2011, 09:25:10 pm
No one told me Tunic over mail would get bumped to medium armor?

tell me about it.  They bumped my lordly turban helemt ot light armor (1 less weight), but then made it 22 armor from 40 head armor, HUGE FUCKING NERF!!
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Joker86 on November 29, 2011, 09:47:28 pm
(click to show/hide)

Not a single patch convinced me of the balancing team actually knowing what it's doing there...

I whish they would publish at least a few of their calculations to show how they are working and what they want to achieve... if there are any calculations at all...
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Gristle on November 29, 2011, 10:05:00 pm
I remember they said they wouldn't do any major stat changes again, because they were happy with how things were.

My personal biggest issue is that the Board Shield was switched from 1 slot to 2 slots, even though it doesn't weigh more than 8 pounds. Glad I was cautious enough to not believe them, and never heirloomed my now useless shield. This oppression against Rhodok Crossbowmen must end!

On a more general scale, myself and others noticed and complained that the surcoat armors had their body armor reduced to the point that it was equal with armors half the price. I wanted this fix. Well, they didn't buff the body armor back to 40. Instead, they increased the weight and price of the armors below the surcoats. So, my stats remain worse, but now so are many others. Ah, balance.

The balance team has a weird philosophy that has nothing to do with promoting fun: Nerf everything equally so that everyone feels cheated. Someday we'll all be using stones and wooden swords, and they'll nerf those too.

Maybe it's the fault of the community, too. Everyone is selfish and only asks for nerfs. Well, we got them.
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Joker86 on November 29, 2011, 10:41:46 pm
What makes me wonder so much is the weird behaviour of the devs.

They behave (and probably feel) like some kind of demigods, who bestow their magnificient patches from above the clouds on us. We never see them, they never talk to us, but their blessings are suddenly there, and we have to deal with them. Because we common mortals could never understand such ingenious decisions like making pikes unable to block, horsebumps wounding the rides or making the only difference between bodkin arrows and masterwork bodkin arrows having 2 more shots in the quiver.

---

A nice start to balance things would be to make some temporal changes to character creation:

- Always being allowed to respecc without any penalties (or let's say for the price of 100k gold or something like that, so that you can't test all builds within an afternoon, with a 48h cooldown)
- Always being allowed to switch loom points between items (again perhaps with price and cooldown)

Yes, this would probably kill the marketplace until those changes are made undone, but it would allow the developers to exactly see how the community will behave on long term.

It would be some kind of "time lapse", showing within a week where some changes would lead to, where you needed months before. So if you have 80% archer population a week after the patch, you can immediately tweak a few values and see how the community reacts.



To be honest, all I want to hear is that someone is taking care of the game balance seriously, with some kind of "plan" or "goal", using calculations and server statistics and whatnot, instead of just "tweaking by the seat of the pants"  :?
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: godhanger on November 30, 2011, 01:16:37 am
Just so my opinion is heard, i am unhappy about the 2-slot board shield. Maybe it makes sense, but it has really shit on the only shield i will use (aesthetics, sue me).
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on November 30, 2011, 02:37:42 am
.
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Blueberry Muffin on November 30, 2011, 02:49:55 am
I got Lordly Blue Tunic Over Mail. Did I choose it because I liked its stats? No. I chose it was because it was the most blue armour that I could find.

And guess what? Its still blue. Hip hip hooray!

Ontopic: Can see your viewpoint though...
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 30, 2011, 02:51:31 am
It's all about style points baby!
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on November 30, 2011, 05:07:12 am
I remember they said they wouldn't do any major stat changes again, because they were happy with how things were.

My personal biggest issue is that the Board Shield was switched from 1 slot to 2 slots, even though it doesn't weigh more than 8 pounds. Glad I was cautious enough to not believe them, and never heirloomed my now useless shield. This oppression against Rhodok Crossbowmen must end!
+1

I am sad that I cannot use the board shield with my arbalest anymore.
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Rumblood on November 30, 2011, 05:47:11 am
They use the same model, why you assumed that the one you chosen will stay lighter ? :shock:

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Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Qilidj_Arslan on November 30, 2011, 05:50:53 am
Looms, while being a fun game-play element, are a pain in the ass of game balancing, they shouldn't be a priority. People are lobbying too much for their heirlooms and makes their point of view biased and worthless.
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Lordark on November 30, 2011, 10:01:38 am
This game is awesome way of seeing how people adapt with change and over come. Yeah gear is all good and this mod brings a plenty with a huge diverse field to play in it. But when every 1 is using the same gear it takes out the flava in the game and thats when a good admin will step in and use thier god hands to keep tweaking the game to keep it funky fresh!
In the end its the players skill that counts for victory not the size of his loom. Its like capatilism, its not perfect but atleast we can tweak it so it keeps on chugging like that old beater you've been driving since 89!
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: B3RS3RK on November 30, 2011, 10:04:47 am
Its so gay.


Tunic over mail was always a nice cheap light-medium armor, with 3 different colors to match most of the different tastes, but now it went more expensive, making it not so good for beginners and a standard-money making equipment...
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Arcona on November 30, 2011, 10:07:05 am
The simple solution would be that when there is a change so significant for the equipment that loom points are refunded.

I mean I am a new player and Gen 1 but if in 4 months time I have ended up with loomed horses and they change the riding skill needed for a Destrier from X to XXX I would be pretty annoyed that my chosen build cant use the item I chose to loom.

Just refund looms when significant changes are made and it should be okay!
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Lordark on November 30, 2011, 10:09:55 am
Refunds are only needed when HUGE changes of policy come into place.

chadzemandius made a marketplace for a reason.

You pissants now gotta deal with it. 

*Too lazy to insert Deal with it .gif*
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Templar_Ratigan on November 30, 2011, 11:29:51 am
Aha so people are unhappy that their builds are being nerfed?

Welcome to my world......4 patches too late of course.
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Tristan on November 30, 2011, 05:56:46 pm
No I am unhappy my STYLE got nerfed and made redundant.
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Templar_Ratigan on November 30, 2011, 08:14:20 pm
So did mine....just a long time ago lol.
Title: Re: For the first time I actually feel a bit... stomped upon...
Post by: Casimir on December 01, 2011, 02:46:47 am
Go throw your stones else where pebbles. This is tristans crying thread!



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