cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Ganner on November 27, 2011, 08:55:12 pm

Title: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: Ganner on November 27, 2011, 08:55:12 pm
Pikes were the direct counter to horses and the survivability has been nerfed by limiting the backup weapon choices.  In my honest opinion cav should have the same limitations.  Make the Heavy lance three slot.

This would accomplish multiple things.

1.) Make cav chose between the protection of a shield or having a backup 1 hander.
2.) Balance the survivability with the new slots of pikes.
3.) prevent turtle cav from taking 2+ shields
4.) prevents tin can cav from becoming glaive or bec spammers when they get up after becoming dehorsed.
5.) makes other lances viable choices

When a cav gets dehorsed it should be at a disadvantage, it shouldn't just become a normal infantry.
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 27, 2011, 10:35:16 pm
Hmm, I'm not sure I like this as traditionally cavalry had backup swords and a shield, where as pikemen only had 1 backup weapon.

And stuff...

Now from a game balance perspective, I still don't think this is a terribly good idea, but that is just me.
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on November 27, 2011, 10:41:03 pm
ya and the horse should take a slot too!
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: Ganner on November 27, 2011, 10:41:47 pm
Hmm, I'm not sure I like this as traditionally cavalry had backup swords and a shield, where as pikemen only had 1 backup weapon.

And stuff...

Now from a game balance perspective, I still don't think this is a terribly good idea, but that is just me.

Traditionally a lance was also a onetime use weapon
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 27, 2011, 10:44:56 pm
Traditionally a lance was also a onetime use weapon

Hmm, the Great Lance like ones yes certainly, reusable lances like the Napoleonic lancers or the Late Polish Lancers or things like western European mounted sergeants never couched and did not do high speed pass thrusts...

You do have a good point there.

Ah sure why not, Nerf Cav! I mean, erm... Lancers!
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: B3RS3RK on November 27, 2011, 11:31:53 pm
+1, heavy lance 3 slots, normal too and light lance stays 2 slot.
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on November 27, 2011, 11:37:34 pm
pikes got overhead back, making them more again a dueling weapon. you'll see pike lovers back (like crafty)
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: Overdriven on November 27, 2011, 11:42:02 pm
Lol no.
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: polkafranzi on November 27, 2011, 11:44:13 pm
When a cav gets dehorsed it should be at a disadvantage, it shouldn't just become a normal infantry.

Why not?

If the rider spends a lot of time practicing off the horse he should be equal to any infantry, his brain shouldn't turn to mush and he forgets how to fight just because he is de-horsed.  Also he suffers because he has 5 or 6 points in riding instead of somewhere else anyway.

Fail topic.

EDIT:

If anything, a rider should get a fucking bonus slot or something, to carry more shit, because the saddle can have a sheath like they sometimes used to, which the rider could store a weapon...derp.
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: Jarlek on November 28, 2011, 01:21:56 am
+1, heavy lance 3 slots, normal too and light lance stays 2 slot.
And Great Lance 1 slot? It's couch only...

So heavy lance 3 slots, normal/light/Practice 2 slots and Great/Jousting lance 1 slot? Count me in :D Would also be correct since the lance+sword+big shield would mainly be for the couch only horsemen, while the others would have to take a lesser shield.
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: Leshma on November 28, 2011, 01:47:40 pm
I would rather like to see cav using heavy lance just for stab and great lance for couching. But that's just me I suppose.

I don't really see the need for this other than internal lance balance. Heavy lance is overused and that should change. Find a way.
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: dodnet on November 28, 2011, 01:52:15 pm
+1, heavy lance 3 slots, normal too and light lance stays 2 slot.

As long as light lance stays 2 slots, I'm fine with it  :mrgreen:

I would like to see more diversity in cav, as almost everyone (except me) uses Heavy Lances only.
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: Kophka on November 28, 2011, 02:02:10 pm
Pikes were the direct counter to horses and the survivability has been nerfed by limiting the backup weapon choices.  In my honest opinion cav should have the same limitations.  Make the Heavy lance three slot.

This would accomplish multiple things.

1.) Make cav chose between the protection of a shield or having a backup 1 hander.
2.) Balance the survivability with the new slots of pikes.
3.) prevent turtle cav from taking 2+ shields
4.) prevents tin can cav from becoming glaive or bec spammers when they get up after becoming dehorsed.
5.) makes other lances viable choices

When a cav gets dehorsed it should be at a disadvantage, it shouldn't just become a normal infantry.

I agree with you on this, especially that dehorsed-cav shouldn't be as strong as normal infantry. However, if you plan on gimping them on foot, you need to address the issue of horses getting 1 or 2-shot with ease. If the horse dies as fast as it currently does, and they are gimped on foot, then there is no point in cav at all.
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: Rusty_Shacklefjord on November 28, 2011, 05:41:43 pm
Dismounted cavalry players ARE at a disadvantage when compared to normal infantry. They have to have fairly high agility, and use several skill points for riding. In that respect, their ability in a melee is similar to that of an archer. They can hold their own if they're skilled, but they'll never be as capable on foot as a pure melee character.

Honestly, I think that the heavy lance is fine as it is. Its damage, length, and speed are all very well balanced, and the ability to use a sword+shield or 2-handed weapon as backup is perfectly fine.

Rather than lances, I think that the heavy horses are what need a nerf. Their use is supposed to be restricted by their high upkeep, but cRPG has many long time players with deep pockets, to whom upkeep is a non-issue. This is bad news for the rest of us, who are forced to endure their extreme resilience and endless bumping. They were kept somewhat in check by the proliferation of long spears and pikes, which could needle them and keep them at bay with rearing - but with the latest patch, they've got free reign. It's almost a futile effort trying to fight them at this point; you can swing at them and take a fraction of their health at the risk of being speared, or you can block and be trampled to death by bump after bump after bump - and that's only in a 1v1. A player on a heavy horse with heavy armor and a heavy shield is able to charge through groups of embattled enemies with impunity, knocking them down like a bunch of helpless medieval bowling pins. I understand that bumping is a large part of what makes heavy cavalry useful, but IMO it's gotten completely out of hand.
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: B3RS3RK on November 28, 2011, 05:43:53 pm
18/18 build is perfect for Cavalry.

So what makes you think they have a big disadvantage?Actually, their Disadvantage is extremely small, even with shield.

Either they have 1 athletics or 1 PS less than most opponents.Wow.Such a big disadvantage.

They should be a little more gimped.

I liked it when you needed 6 agi for each riding and the Plated charger was 6 riding, meaning you could only ride it with 30 agi.Now THAT was an Disadvantage worth speaking of.I´d like to have that again.
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: polkafranzi on November 28, 2011, 05:54:42 pm
18/18 build is perfect for Cavalry.

So what makes you think they have a big disadvantage?Actually, their Disadvantage is extremely small, even with shield.

Either they have 1 athletics or 1 PS less than most opponents.Wow.Such a big disadvantage.

They should be a little more gimped.

I liked it when you needed 6 agi for each riding and the Plated charger was 6 riding, meaning you could only ride it with 30 agi.Now THAT was an Disadvantage worth speaking of.I´d like to have that again.

6 x 6 = 36

Your whole post must be a troll, or you're just a retard.  Why would someone on a plated charger wear rags? Cos he doesn't have the strength to wear plate...lol good joke.

Cav got nerfed in nearly every patch, yet we still have this silly anti-cav brigade trollling us all the time...
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: B3RS3RK on November 28, 2011, 06:01:25 pm
Ah, sry then.Meant 5 Riding xD

Quote
Your whole post must be a troll, or you're just a retard.  Why would someone on a plated charger wear rags

No u.We actually HAD this back then before upkeep and stuff, and it was really nice, because to ride a fucking Tank you needed to be very specialized.As it is now, its nor hard at all to be awesome on foot and on horse...

Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: Son Of Odin on November 28, 2011, 06:10:47 pm
Hmm... Why on earth should it be 3 slots? Cavalry guy has a huge disadvantage when dehorsed. 1) He is laying on the ground so long that you can hit atleast twice if you are near him. 2) He does not have the same melee abilities as your infantry build. He had to compromise at something (power strike, athletics or weapon master for example.) 3) The upkeep does not allow cav to carry the best possible back up weapon all the time. Sometimes not side arm at all.

Not to speak that light mounts get killed so easilly. So why shouldn't they be able to have good sidearms with heavy lance? In my opinion heavy lance is pretty balanced and not op. I see other cav using many other lances as well. Light lance and even two sided lance. What is an bröblems?

Then what happens to 1h/lance hybrids? Atleast they wont be having a shield... So that for the diversity...

Then again:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: Torben on November 28, 2011, 06:14:29 pm
Ah, sry then.Meant 5 Riding xD

No u.We actually HAD this back then before upkeep and stuff, and it was really nice, because to ride a fucking Tank you needed to be very specialized.As it is now, its nor hard at all to be awesome on foot and on horse...

back than u we had level 40 "heros" that still had the str to use heavy armor.  c-rpg is a different catch these days,  dont see how u can compare despite all the changes during the last 12 months.

rags on slow horses is suicide.

 
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: Son Of Odin on November 28, 2011, 06:16:54 pm
Oh and when I say "them" meaning cavmen, I mean "us!"... Now I sound biased as hell don't I? But atleast I know what I'm talking about since I play the class myself (pure lancer).
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: polkafranzi on November 28, 2011, 06:32:38 pm
Oh and when I say "them" meaning cavmen, I mean "us!"... Now I sound biased as hell don't I? But atleast I know what I'm talking about since I play the class myself (pure lancer).

Good point.  It's always those that have played 20 gens as archer or pure inf that hate cav.

Pre all the big patches i use to rock shield/heavy lance/1h sword/hidden flamberge.  It "was" OP.

Now play lance/2h wep with no shield and medium horse.  Often find myself charging enemy and, if head on, horse gets "bodkin'd or bolted" (80-100% health gone with 1 arrow/bolt). 

Also, I haven't played since this latest patch cos am away, but 2h thrust has been able to outrange heavy lance for some time now, and I hear the animation has been changed...so, should be interesting.
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: Torben on November 28, 2011, 06:58:02 pm
ninja hijack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrcBMLC2fFQ

maybe this will actually give this thread some substance.
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: Rusty_Shacklefjord on November 28, 2011, 07:36:37 pm
18/18 build is perfect for Cavalry.

So what makes you think they have a big disadvantage?Actually, their Disadvantage is extremely small, even with shield.

Either they have 1 athletics or 1 PS less than most opponents.Wow.Such a big disadvantage.

You're right, 18/18 is good for cavalry. However, a good infantry build would be more like 24/12. This means 6 more points of strength, and 2 more points of iron flesh and power strike - on top of the better armor and weapons that you can afford to use when you don't also have to pay for a horse and lance.

So yes, cavalry ARE are at a disadvantage when dismounted. They have less health, less armor, do less damage, and have less effective weapons.
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: Dezilagel on November 28, 2011, 08:25:24 pm
You're right, 18/18 is good for cavalry. However, a good infantry build would be more like 24/12. This means 6 more points of strength, and 2 more points of iron flesh and power strike - on top of the better armor and weapons that you can afford to use when you don't also have to pay for a horse and lance.

So yes, cavalry ARE are at a disadvantage when dismounted. They have less health, less armor, do less damage, and have less effective weapons.

24/12? O.o

BOOOOOORING!
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: Kafein on November 28, 2011, 08:43:59 pm
I would rather like to see cav using heavy lance just for stab and great lance for couching. But that's just me I suppose.

I don't really see the need for this other than internal lance balance. Heavy lance is overused and that should change. Find a way.

Heavy lance is overused because it's the only one with decent range. The good way of balancing it isn't making it as useless as the other ones...

Currently the only way of playing cav like cav is meant to be played is going for a wallet-oriented build. 18/18/500k at least, to upkeep the only horses that don't drop dead in a few arrows. Hurting the whole class because others are butthurt about heavy horses isn't needed. Don't forget that even though a heavy lance is "only" 2 slots, it is not sheathable. Furthermore, downed cav already are at a great disadvantage. A roughly level 25 melee char, that starts the infantry fight with a 3 seconds nap that usually lets the enemy strike 2 hits, sometimes only one. Which means many of these "fights" don't even happen as the cav is killed on the ground without any mean of defense, no matter how good he is. Now, is that fair ? As cav I never complained about that.
Title: Re: Balance the Heavy Lance by making it 3 slot as well.
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on November 29, 2011, 03:22:16 pm
what about horse giving you 2 more slots ? you can attach stuff to the saddle or something

ah crazy talk

and pike was probably changed to the 3 slots, because it was/is the ultimate melee support weapon rather than anti cav weapon, with this change it might bring it back to its proper role in the battlefield but to hell with that blame cav ;p