cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Celduin_Nienna on November 13, 2011, 08:34:32 am

Title: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Celduin_Nienna on November 13, 2011, 08:34:32 am: Head Shots from ranged weapons need to be looked at and rebalanced.

I am not an expert on this but this is my experience.

My character with 30 Strength and 10 Iron Flesh and a Great Helmet (53 Head Armour) routinely gets 1 Shot Killed by ranged weapon shots to the head.

Yet, a 8-10 Power Strike melee combatant with a Great Long Axe who wacks me directly to the head will on average only take 50% of my health.

This is wrong, and unbalanced and needs to be changed.

I am not against Head Shots, and dont think they need to be removed. But they need to take serious account of the Head Armour Value of the person helmet, which at present I do not believe they are doing. Because at the moment it seems that Range Weapon shots to the head completely ignore head armour and this wrong.

My suggestions is that the Head Armour value of the Helmet should give a Percentage Chance to completely negate the head shot. For example a Great Helmet would give a 53% chance to negate incoming head shots from range weapons, and the attack would deal damage normally, as any other weapon attack to the head.

What are other peoples ideas / feelings about this matter?

I just see Head shots happening far far too frequently on people wearing the heaviest helmets. They should be a fairly rare "Lucky shot" and head armour should give a chance to survive them.

Also could any Dev give me a detailed description of how head shots damage is calculated, and whether or not Head Armour does actually make any difference to them at all?

Thanks for reading!
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Digglez on November 13, 2011, 08:44:06 am: the dmg is fine, its the dmg is determined by arrow instead of bow. these stupid bows besides longbow shouldnt be doing pierce dmg. otherwise change the values vs ranged to the same that melee use to stop these ridiculous dmg from ranged
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Celduin_Nienna on November 13, 2011, 08:56:51 am: So my question is - Why can an Arrow to the head frequently One Shot a 10 Iron Flesh Character with a Helmet, but a Great Axe slash to the head never does?

It doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 13, 2011, 10:06:20 am: For starters, it is substantially harder to do so thus it gives a greater reward. My shielder does two thirds of his blows to the head because it is child's play.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Thucydides on November 13, 2011, 10:21:07 am: from personal experience i can tell you that a 10 PS GLA headshot most likely will one hit you. Especially if held
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Gurnisson on November 13, 2011, 01:09:05 pm: When I flew around with 27/12 build with 48 head armour and 9 IF I often survived headshots. Remember, the bolts/arrows almost never hangs from your head, only when they take like 95 % of your health, so you'll have to notive a headshot some other way (neck movement, bloody head with high damage etc.)

A few days ago I saw Dado the horse archer surviving a headshot from MW Arbalest and MW Steel Bolts from DaveUKR, and that's by far the most high-damaging headshot you can get. Dado had 52 head armour and 4 IF, iirc, though the distance was significant

Also, me surviving a headshot from Ronald's MW Arbalest and MW Steel Bolts at low/medium range:

(click to show/hide)
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Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: OttomanSniper on November 13, 2011, 01:18:17 pm: NO !

I have 8 Power Draw, +3 Bodkin, +3 Horn (Its too high damage for archers) and cant kill tincans with 2 head shot, its need 3 shot. Its become zombie killer game... Do u want still fight after lose you head, like zombie ?

Use this helmet, i shot him eye but he's still life...
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Devs : Stop nerfing archery, already 10 time nerfed and HA removed. Please open a "no ranged server". Or nerf but give free respec, im lvl 33.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Leshma on November 13, 2011, 02:33:40 pm: Quote from: Gurnisson on November 13, 2011, 01:09:05 pm
When I flew around with 27/12 build with 48 head armour and 9 IF I often survived headshots. Remember, the bolts/arrows almost never hangs from your head, only when they take like 95 % of your health, so you'll have to notive a headshot some other way (neck movement, bloody head with high damage etc.)

A few days ago I saw Dado the horse archer surviving a headshot from MW Arbalest and MW Steel Bolts from DaveUKR, and that's by far the most high-damaging headshot you can get. Dado had 52 head armour and 4 IF, iirc, though the distance was significant

Also, me surviving a headshot from Ronald's MW Arbalest and MW Steel Bolts at low/medium range:

(click to show/hide)
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

From my experience, when you take the headshot, bolt/arrow never shows on your head. Instead your face gets exceptionally bloody. Are you sure that's a headshot in your screen and not a neck (body shot)?
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Camaris on November 13, 2011, 03:14:25 pm: Quote from: OttomanSniper on November 13, 2011, 01:18:17 pm
Devs : Stop nerfing archery, already 10 time nerfed and HA removed.

I dont know for sure but wasnt the last one a buff?
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Gurnisson on November 13, 2011, 03:21:52 pm: Quote from: Leshma on November 13, 2011, 02:33:40 pm
From my experience, when you take the headshot, bolt/arrow never shows on your head. Instead your face gets exceptionally bloody. Are you sure that's a headshot in your screen and not a neck (body shot)?

Can show when the shot brings you down to like 1-2 hp. It's happened in native, and happened here. Also, that shot wasn't taken from an angle either, so it hit where it's placed, right in the eye. Also, an arbalest shot in the body would not take all hp bar on a 27/12 build with 9 IF and 60 body armour. :wink:
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Rumblood on November 13, 2011, 04:36:49 pm: Quote from: Celduin_Nienna on November 13, 2011, 08:56:51 am
So my question is - Why can an Arrow to the head frequently One Shot a 10 Iron Flesh Character with a Helmet, but a Great Axe slash to the head never does?

It doesn't make sense.

You're full of it. My 5 PS 15 str archer routinely One shots to the head with my Iberian Mace. Here's what is likely, you THINK you hit them in the head. You didn't.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Gorath on November 13, 2011, 05:45:02 pm: Quote from: OttomanSniper on November 13, 2011, 01:18:17 pm
and cant kill tincans with 2 head shot, its need 3 shot.

Lies and bullshit.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Blondin on November 13, 2011, 06:31:45 pm: Pierce head damage > cut head damage

That's why it seems that ranged do more damage on headshot.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: cmp on November 13, 2011, 06:39:18 pm: Quote from: Blondin on November 13, 2011, 06:31:45 pm
Pierce head damage > cut head damage

Urban legend.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: _Sebastian_ on November 13, 2011, 06:45:36 pm: The damage to heads is just fine.
I have 10PD + 150wpf + mw-longbow + mw-bodkins and I deal 102 pierce.
For a while ago a tincan with a good helmet surived a headshot from a distance of 3 meters :!:
(And it wasn't rainig)

So I think there is no need to rebalance headshots.

The only bodypart which needs a rebalance is the hand.
I made a test with a player with 18str and light-medium armor
and I shot him in the chest and hand from a distance of 3-4 meters.
He allways survied a shot to the chest, but he died from 1 arrow to the hand :!:

The hand needs to be rebalanced and not the head.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 13, 2011, 06:59:36 pm: Range seems to do more because it does.
210% for range and 120% for melee when striking the head bone.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Torp on November 13, 2011, 07:09:15 pm: Paul gave us the nubmers in one of my old topics and tears is right - ranged dmg to head does far more dmg to head whereas melee dmg to head only gives a small (20%) bonus
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Blondin on November 13, 2011, 08:55:59 pm: Quote from: cmpxchg8b on November 13, 2011, 06:39:18 pm
Urban legend.

Like all cRPG stats and formulas, nobody knows the truth.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Zisa on November 13, 2011, 09:22:53 pm: Quote from: Blondin on November 13, 2011, 08:55:59 pm
Like all cRPG stats and formulas, nobody knows the truth.
And even fewer give a rat's arse.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Leshma on November 13, 2011, 09:30:37 pm: Quote from: Blondin on November 13, 2011, 06:31:45 pm
Pierce head damage > cut head damage

That's why it seems that ranged do more damage on headshot.

It has nothing to do with damage type...

Headshot - 3xdamage
Headhit - 1.2xdamage
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: cmp on November 13, 2011, 09:37:51 pm: Quote from: Blondin on November 13, 2011, 08:55:59 pm
Like all cRPG stats and formulas, nobody knows the truth.

1) it's a hardcoded formula and has nothing to do with cRPG.
2) I do (and Leshma, and many others).
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: ThePoopy on November 13, 2011, 09:52:43 pm: is head bonus added before or after armor?
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Blondin on November 14, 2011, 01:15:21 am: Quote from: cmpxchg8b on November 13, 2011, 09:37:51 pm
1) it's a hardcoded formula and has nothing to do with cRPG.
2) I do (and Leshma, and many others).

1) ok i'm dumb (but pierce is still better against armor?)
2) I hope so :shock:, but it was just to make a trait of humor, because cRPG remains very obscure for the bigger part of players (though, it's not a requirement to play).
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Gurnisson on November 14, 2011, 01:32:28 am: Quote from: Blondin on November 14, 2011, 01:15:21 am
1) ok i'm dumb (but pierce is still better against armor?)

Yes, so it would deal more damage overall, because it negates a lot of the armour. Then again, the base pierce damage is generally lower than the base cut damage, so it becomes like regular cut vs. pierce discussion.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Jarlek on November 14, 2011, 02:15:07 am: Quote from: Tears of Destiny on November 13, 2011, 06:59:36 pm
Range seems to do more because it does.
210% for range and 120% for melee when striking the head bone.

I'm too tired to go on a thread hunt right now. You mind digging that thread up up, posting a link and I'll create a "Hitboxes" page for the wiki with the different damage multipliers and etc.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Celduin_Nienna on November 14, 2011, 07:25:28 pm: Quote from: Leshma on November 13, 2011, 09:30:37 pm
It has nothing to do with damage type...

Headshot - 3xdamage
Headhit - 1.2xdamage

This seems a bit ridiculous - and is exactly what I am complaining about. An Arrow to the Head does 3x more damage than an Axe to the head. Thats silly.

At the end of the day, I just think it should be very difficult or lucky to Head Shot a person wearing a heavy helmet such as a Salet with Visor or Milanese Salet. The only vulnerable part of these helmets is the eyes, and shooting someone in the eyes is very lucky. Anywhere else on the helmet the arrow would simply be deflected, right?

And I dont think head shots take this into consideration. So to re-iterate i think Head-Shots versus high head armour helmets need to be rebalanced.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Rogue_Eagle on November 14, 2011, 08:42:45 pm: It's hard enough to hit heads.

How hard is it to do a downward strike?

Exactly.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Digglez on November 15, 2011, 01:07:05 am: Quote from: Leshma on November 13, 2011, 09:30:37 pm
It has nothing to do with damage type...

Headshot - 3xdamage
Headhit - 1.2xdamage

Yes it pretty much has EVERYTHING to do with damage type. A pierce arrow (using old soak/resist values) which has several times the penetration of melee weapon means helmets are all but useless against them. An Armet Helm (60 armor) stops all of like 20 dmg from a headshot.

Horn Bow w/ bodkin = 26 dmg + PD5 (5*14% dmg increase per power draw) = 44.2 dmg

44.2 dmg - 20 dmg reduction(60 armor x .36 pierce penetration) = 24.2 x 3 (headshot dmg multi) = 72.6 dmg, enough to kill most people in 1 hit without them even being injured to begin with.

So even wearing best helm in the game, you can still easily be 1shot by some random gimp using non-heirloomed gear and average dmg bow.

Any devs feel free to correct my math.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Siboire on November 21, 2011, 07:03:17 pm: And after that they say archery is not op... Ez to go 15-24 archer and shoot like an ak47, deal pierce damage, have crazy accuracy (ez headshots) and run like a p*ssy ...
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Keshian on November 21, 2011, 07:19:33 pm: 200% and 120% bonuses, so either 2.2 x v. 3x or 1.2x v. 2x NOT 1.2x v. 3x. Not that big of a difference, especially with long distances reducing damage and speed of person swinging moving toward target or held swings adding damage.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Celduin_Nienna on November 24, 2011, 08:28:07 pm: Suggestion: Helmets with over 35 Head Armour should give a Percentage Chance to completely Negate Headshots.

Agree or Disagree?
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Gurnisson on November 24, 2011, 08:39:38 pm: Disagree.

Head shots are a lot harder to do, and should be a lot more rewarding than body shots. Having helmets possibly negating all damage from a headshot would be insane. I would rather see all bows except for the long bow go back to cut damage, with the rus bow being the top tier cut bow.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 25, 2011, 02:43:07 am: Quote from: Gurnisson on November 24, 2011, 08:39:38 pm
Disagree.

Head shots are a lot harder to do, and should be a lot more rewarding than body shots. Having helmets possibly negating all damage from a headshot would be insane. I would rather see all bows except for the long bow go back to cut damage, with the rus bow being the top tier cut bow.

I agree with absolutely all of this.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Celduin_Nienna on November 25, 2011, 02:54:42 am: Quote from: Gurnisson on November 24, 2011, 08:39:38 pm
Having helmets possibly negating all damage from a headshot would be insane.

Im not suggesting that shots to Head with Helmet should do 0 damage. Im saying they should do normal damage with say 1.2x multiplier.

For example:

Arrow hits head. Head has 50 Head Armour. 50% chance for the 3x "HeadShot" multiplier to be negated and for the arrow to deal regular damage to the target.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Rogue_Eagle on November 25, 2011, 02:57:01 am: in my opinion rus bow should be pierce too, 2 slots for pierce, 1 slot for cut?
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 26, 2011, 12:06:32 am: Bleh, make the longbow pierce and keep the rus bow cut, that way there is a difference between the higher bows.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Lech on November 26, 2011, 09:09:10 pm: Leave damage type to arrows, but reduce damage for bodkins to make it real choice, unlike currently where bodkins are a must.

And increase weight of bows 3 times. or 4. And increase their length (if it reduce their run speed).
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Uumdi on November 26, 2011, 09:29:00 pm: Longbow needs some love.
Title: Re: Head Shots Need to Be Re-Balanced.
Post by: Lech on November 26, 2011, 09:52:55 pm: Quote from: Celduin_Nienna on November 25, 2011, 02:54:42 am
Im not suggesting that shots to Head with Helmet should do 0 damage. Im saying they should do normal damage with say 1.2x multiplier.

For example:

Arrow hits head. Head has 50 Head Armour. 50% chance for the 3x "HeadShot" multiplier to be negated and for the arrow to deal regular damage to the target.

Maybe something like: if not hit from the front, it deals 1.3 normal damage. No randomness and way more fair.