cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Takoul on February 09, 2011, 03:01:30 pm

Title: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: Takoul on February 09, 2011, 03:01:30 pm
First of all nice castle! Looks fantastic
Second, get rid of it or change it:

  There's only one point of entry to the inner keep. This makes it impossible to take. Take a look at the wooden pallisade castle where even with the fighting generally ending up at the flag INSIDE the castle its no guarantee of winning as an attacker.
But with this 'Helms Deep' type castle there is no way you are going to take the inner courtyard if scaling the walls is  impossible. There aren't any ladders to put up to the inner wall and no spot to do this from.

The inner gatehouse, hmmm. I saw that the winch mechanism is in between two gates, stuck on the floor level. Very very odd and surely not intentional? Take a look if you get time. Because even if you get a ladder from the outer wall across to the inner gatehouse spanning that wide chasm like courtyard, once across, you cannot even raise the gate from the gatehouse!
So all the fighting is concentrated in one doorway. And as a defender if you know no one is coming over the walls its just too easy to defend.

I'v got to x5 from defending this keep. Great. Not really, because the other 50% of the time attacking there's just no point really apart from a pew pew fest outside that inner door.

PLEASE PLEASE change this castle :)
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: Spurdospera on February 09, 2011, 03:10:02 pm
It´s not impossible to take, attackers just have to use teamwork.
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: Takoul on February 09, 2011, 03:42:31 pm
This map channels all attackers into one spot. Thats auto map teamwork enabled and still it don't work, because most of the time are randoms. Never seen a whole side from one clan yet.

Thinking about it again, one change could make this map workable and fun.
Remove the unbreakable portcullis from the inner gate. There looks to be a breakable door behind it. Its another defendable chokepoint so it wouldn't unbalance it. Plus, with attacking through doors it would still be hard to take down. That inner gate just looks 'wrong' somehow if you take a close look between respawns.
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: MrExxc on February 09, 2011, 03:51:24 pm
I agree with both of you, if the defenders are organised, they win easily, but if attackers face a non organised one, they can regroup and push once and then crush them on a second attack.
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: Vexus on February 09, 2011, 03:56:13 pm
That map is not finished when I was defense you can go on the wall and there's a passage which is blocked.

Either make the passage of the mountains accessible or remove it till it does.
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: Memento_Mori on February 09, 2011, 03:58:57 pm
Quote from: Takoul on February 09, 2011, 03:01:30 pm
First of all nice castle! Looks fantastic
Second, get rid of it or change it:

  There's only one point of entry to the inner keep. This makes it impossible to take. Take a look at the wooden pallisade castle where even with the fighting generally ending up at the flag INSIDE the castle its no guarantee of winning as an attacker.
But with this 'Helms Deep' type castle there is no way you are going to take the inner courtyard if scaling the walls is  impossible. There aren't any ladders to put up to the inner wall and no spot to do this from.

The inner gatehouse, hmmm. I saw that the winch mechanism is in between two gates, stuck on the floor level. Very very odd and surely not intentional? Take a look if you get time. Because even if you get a ladder from the outer wall across to the inner gatehouse spanning that wide chasm like courtyard, once across, you cannot even raise the gate from the gatehouse!
So all the fighting is concentrated in one doorway. And as a defender if you know no one is coming over the walls its just too easy to defend.

I'v got to x5 from defending this keep. Great. Not really, because the other 50% of the time attacking there's just no point really apart from a pew pew fest outside that inner door.

PLEASE PLEASE change this castle :)


One point of entry to the inner keep eh?
Me thinks you don't know the map that well.
Attackers need to learn to use team work.
Just coz you spawn instantly doesn't mean you have to blindly charge the flag every time totally alone.
but w/e complain, complain, imo Helm's Deep isn't even close to the worst map on rotation for siege, at least there is more than ONE way into the castle & more than ONE way to the flag.
anyways, my opinion is, people don't know the map yet and thusly do not realize the easiest way to take it. Give it some time people will understand.
If not, I over estimate the intelligence of the C-rpg community and will go back to hiding.
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: FICO on February 09, 2011, 04:31:08 pm
i don't visit siege server so often, but once i visited it it was helm's deep map. we went all the way to the flag, but we couldn't reach it because of defenders' last stand. so it is possible. we didn't make it, but i still think it is possible.

fortifications are built that way to channel attackers and not to be conquered. and, yes... gameplay comes first, than reality, but i don't need to take the castle to feel "wow - that was great game and great map". you have to perceive it like "wow! we came this far on this impenetrable castle! good work, team. let's try again maybe we make it deeper in the castle!"

for me: no challenge - no fun
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: Diomedes on February 09, 2011, 07:05:50 pm
The map needs progressive spawn locations for attackers.  Going from square one to the flag takes a fairly long time, and moving a spawn point forward would make the bottlenecks much more fair.  I'm not sure how any of these mechanics work, but I have heard map-makers chatting about them.  Additionally, and as already mentioned, a operational gates would be great.  This way the attackers could decrease the distance between the inner keep and their spawn, while introducing a path for horsemen into the mix which could be closed otherwise.

It could also do with a aesthetic tweaks but that's just me being a person who's seen LotR:TT far too many times  :wink:
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: justme on February 09, 2011, 07:07:44 pm
yeah fico, but the odds for attackers to win the round are less then 10 %
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: Camaris on February 09, 2011, 07:13:40 pm
This map will give you multiplier as defender 95% of the time or even higher chance.
Like the other map with the breakable door direct at attackerspawn will give attackers multiplier at chance of 95%+++

Both maps should be changed to make them more balanced. Until that happend just remove them.
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: justme on February 09, 2011, 07:17:00 pm
Quote from: Camaris on February 09, 2011, 07:13:40 pm
This map will give you multiplier as defender 95% of the time or even higher chance.
Like the other map with the breakable door direct at attackerspawn will give attackers multiplier at chance of 95%+++

Both maps should be changed to make them more balanced. Until that happend just remove them.

exactly that, and that is opinion of most siege players
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: FICO on February 09, 2011, 10:56:30 pm
but helm is such a nice map. (eye candy)

oh... now i HAVE TO play sieges
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: Camaris on February 11, 2011, 12:59:01 pm
bah switched spectator again cause of this map.

tbh every defender with x1 should just boycott it.
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: Dexxtaa on February 11, 2011, 04:31:57 pm
I like it.

Siege is less for the grind and more for the fun of  it, really.
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: Mustang_Sweets on February 11, 2011, 05:10:54 pm
Helms, deep has more ways into then you think you're just not looking hard enough.
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: Camaris on February 11, 2011, 06:03:45 pm
I dont have problems to get in i have problems because i have to run and run and run if i died.
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: Furax on February 11, 2011, 06:38:02 pm
This map is the only map whos not bad, because you have to use teamplay to win. However there is no teamplay in cRPG.

If just 50% of attackers attacked the chokepoint at once, defenders wouldent stand a chance, assuming they had as little teamplay as the faulty attackers would have had not doing this. Time after time ive rushed inn there alone versus 20 defenders, whilst 30 attackers stand and watch on the outside, im here sacrificing myself for attackers to gain a momentum, will they take it? No..maybe one or two brave souls, but versus 20 all focused on them its not gonna do much.
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: WaltF4 on February 11, 2011, 07:38:47 pm
The Helm's Deep map is too large. The standard balancing mechanism for siege, a defended position but with fewer active combatants, no longer functions when the average respawning attacker takes longer than the average respawning defender to resume fighting.
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: Dexxtaa on February 11, 2011, 07:41:11 pm
Quote from: WaltF4 on February 11, 2011, 07:38:47 pm
The Helm's Deep map is too large. The standard balancing mechanism for siege, a defended position but with fewer active combatants, no longer functions when the average respawning attacker takes longer than the average respawning defender to resume fighting.

Stop making sense.

But an idea is to include more ladders to the walls for faster access for the attackers.

I really like the map and would like to keep it, if possible
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: IG_Saint on February 11, 2011, 08:18:36 pm
So where exactly are these ways in? I know of 2 ways to get to the flag:
1:
(click to show/hide)
2:
(click to show/hide)

And to go through 2 you first need to go through 1 and open the gate, which is pointless since once you're through 1 you'll just head straight to the flag.

So unless there's some hidden passage that I don't know about, there's only 1 way of getting in....Either change this map or remove it from rotation imo.
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: Seprest on February 13, 2011, 11:12:47 am
If the attackers are skilled enough to get EVERYONE to attack correctly, then you should assume that the defenders could be just as good.  When it takes the attackers so much more teamplay to get a chance at winning in this map, it is inbalanced.
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: CtrlAltDe1337 on February 14, 2011, 04:07:53 pm
First off, please use this subforum when discussing map balance, since its where all the mappers visit: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/board,24.0.html

I didn't see this thread till today.  And I know I speak for everyone when I say we could use some feedback.


Secondly, I already sent a revised version to Airith, let me know what you think of it once you've gotten a chance to play.  The problem with the old version was the outer walls were too easy to take, and the inner keep was almost impossible to get in.  I've made some pretty extensive revisions regarding places


Also, if you know of alternate ways into the keep area, let me know, because there are supposed to only be 2 :P  I suppose you could use ladders to get around, but that will take so long that it isn't really viable in most cases.  But let me know about these "secret passages" please :P
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: Ache on February 14, 2011, 04:16:01 pm
1. Put atk spawnpoint closer to the flag so you dont have to run for about 2 minutes until you "could" reach the flag.
2. It is possible to put a siege ladder from the main gatehouse at the right side to the innerkeep.
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: Bear on February 14, 2011, 04:26:29 pm
This map is perfectly fine ^^ also ppl seem to forget the thousand of ladders stuff ;)
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: CtrlAltDe1337 on February 14, 2011, 06:58:14 pm
Quote from: Ache on February 14, 2011, 04:16:01 pm
1. Put atk spawnpoint closer to the flag so you dont have to run for about 2 minutes until you "could" reach the flag.
2. It is possible to put a siege ladder from the main gatehouse at the right side to the innerkeep.
Quote from: me
First off, please use this subforum when discussing map balance, since its where all the mappers visit: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/board,24.0.html
Please, people...it will make life much easier for us mappers and you can give feedback on all the maps.
Title: Re: 'Helms Deep' Castle on siege. No can do
Post by: Ache on February 14, 2011, 07:40:48 pm
Just transfer it to the other forum please. ^^