cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Seawied on January 04, 2011, 06:11:13 pm

Title: Redefining horses
Post by: Seawied on January 04, 2011, 06:11:13 pm

Right now you have two kinds of horses

#1 Glass Cannons- High movement and maneuverability, piss poor life.
#2 Panzer-ponies- Also high movement speed, heavy armor, and stupidly high charge damage.

Right now, if you have a heavy horse, there is no reason why your KDR should be lower than 4 to 1 unless you have  a terminal case of suckage. A horrible player can easily achieve god-like KDR with a panzer-pony.

I suggest a change in how we examine the roles of horses.

First off, the overall deciding factor of what horse to use should not just be "do I want ot grind up to 60k gold?" Each horse should be unique, have advantages and disadvantages, and should be desirable to different sets of players. What I suggest is not a buff for horses

My suggested changes
#1 freeby horse. No reqs. Slow, weak, no maneuverability. We shall call this "Taxi-horse." No character req commitment, but a horribly poor choice for combat. Designed to be utilized for getting from point A to Point B... much like my first car.

#2 Agile Horse. This would be the desert and sarranid horse. They would have around 110-120 life and 18-20 armor. A slight speed reduction and a noticeable charge damage reduction would be induced. Charge damage would be along the lines of 6-8 damage. Riding requirements would be 2-4

#3 Speed horses. Low Agility (38ish) High speed, 110-120 life, 15-20 armor. Very low charge damage (4-7.) Good for horse archers on an open plains, bad in a tight corner. Horse reqs 2-4.

#4 Medium horses. 140-160 life 25-35 armor, 15-20 charge damage. Medium-Low speed, Medium maneuverability. Can take a hit or two, but won't be able to dish out the charge damage that they currently do. Req 4-6

#5 Heavy cruisers. 110-120 life, 40-55 armor, High speed (46-49 ish) low maneuverability (37ish.) Riding reqs 4-6. Charge damage 15-18. The speedy horse for the dedicated horse rider. Can take arrows, but dies quickly to pikes. req 6

#6 Heavy Turners. 130 Life, 40-55 armor, 40-55 armor, High Maneuverability  (46-49ish), low speed (38-40) Riding reqs 5-6. Charge damage 15-18. Designed for melee users on horseback. High armor, medium life, good turner. Great for weaving in and out of a cluster-F%#^. Riding requirement 6

#7 The Heavy. 160 life, 50-60 armor. 37 Speed, 40 maneuverability. Charge damage 20-25 Riding Req 10

#8 The "Durrrr" Tank. 150 life. 50 armor. 32 speed, 32 maneuverability, 35-40 charge damage. Riding Req 5-6. Best used with a glob of slobber creeping out of your half-opened mouth. Designed to appeal to the current cavalry "gods." Riding requirement 12


Additionally, if possible, I suggest a 10% exp penalty for players who have a horse equiped
(removed due to complaints)
The end result of the change would be this

#1 Horse charge damage would not be a player's primary way of damaging an opponent
-All the charge damage across the board has been reduced. This forces a player to rely on their skill rather than their "W" key.

#2 Arrows would take out most horses in 4-5 hits instead of the 1-3 for light horses and ??? for heavy.
-Pikes, throwing spears/lances, and crossbows would become the main threat to cavalry instead of arrows.

#3 Variety in horse choices on the field.
-Less monotoned than the battlefield currently is

#4 A steeper learning curve for cavalry.
-Less "Easy mode" applied for heavy horse users.

Title: Re: Redefining horses
Post by: Poetrydog on January 04, 2011, 06:37:39 pm

Hmm i actually agree on this. Though I've never been on a horse in crpg so i won't know it from that point of view. TO me it sounds interesting though that there's more diversity in the horses and that they're more specialised.

EDIT: Don't know about the exp penalty. I eouldn't mind but i bet the cav would as they're often away form the battle and don't get that much exp?

Title: Re: Redefining horses
Post by: Seawied on January 04, 2011, 08:29:55 pm

I don't have a problem getting xp on horse. If anything, I tend to gain more.

Bare in mind, they have the advantage of being near multiple battles in an instant. The movement bonus they have translates to an exp bonus under the current system. Next patch this wont be an issue

Title: Re: Redefining horses
Post by: ViiKOLD on January 04, 2011, 09:05:54 pm

3-rd tier horses already have pretty serious differences, but mostly people choose Destrier as it survives much longer. Maybe they should be like first is agile, second is fast and third is in between, for each tier, but all three have almost the same armor and hp. Right now armor and hp is drastically different in terms of gameplay.

Title: Re: Redefining horses
Post by: Gorath on January 04, 2011, 09:37:40 pm

After reading and musing on it, I like the overall ideas you've laid out (except the xp penalty... I like it, but I would never seriously suggest it ;)). 

Title: Re: Redefining horses
Post by: CtrlAltDe1337 on January 04, 2011, 09:42:50 pm

the xp bonus is a bad idea.  The rest, I don't see how it would really change things.

Title: Re: Redefining horses
Post by: Vexus on January 06, 2011, 12:26:39 am

Or just remove or lower a lot the bonus you get from riding.

Speed increases bump damage being able to increase riding per 3 agi = more riding.

Title: Re: Redefining horses
Post by: Seawied on January 06, 2011, 12:44:42 am

Take a look at the charge values of the current horses. They're incredibly high.


Sumpter Horse   3530   
hit points 90
body armor 10
requirement 2
horse speed 37
horse maneuver 39
horse charge 9
      
Rouncey   6550   
hit points 95
body armor 16
requirement 3
horse speed 45
horse maneuver 44
horse charge 20
      
Palfrey   7550   
hit points 85
body armor 12
requirement 3
horse speed 46
horse maneuver 45
horse charge 18
   
Steppe Horse   8145   
hit points 85
body armor 14
requirement 3
horse speed 40
horse maneuver 51
horse charge 14
   
Desert Horse   13440   
hit points 85
body armor 10
requirement 3
horse speed 42
horse maneuver 50
horse charge 16
   
Courser   17380   
hit points 100
body armor 18
requirement 4
horse speed 50
horse maneuver 44
horse charge 24
   
Sarranid Horse   20480   
hit points 90
body armor 10
requirement 4
horse speed 43
horse maneuver 54
horse charge 20
   
Destrier   23920   
hit points 120
body armor 27
requirement 4
horse speed 43
horse maneuver 44
horse charge 32
   
War Horse   37160   
hit points 120
body armor 40
requirement 5
horse speed 40
horse maneuver 41
horse charge 36
   
Large Warhorse   39160   
hit points 120
body armor 43
requirement 5
horse speed 39
horse maneuver 41
horse charge 36
   
Cataphract Horse   44666   
hit points 120
body armor 50
requirement 5
horse speed 40
horse maneuver 42
horse charge 38
   
Charger   56460   
hit points 130
body armor 58
requirement 5
horse speed 39
horse maneuver 40
horse charge 40
   
Mamluk Horse   60000   
hit points 140
body armor 62
requirement 6
horse speed 39
horse maneuver 40
horse charge 42
   
Plated Charger   65536   
hit points 150
body armor 70
requirement 6
horse speed 37
horse maneuver 38
horse charge 46

Title: Re: Redefining horses
Post by: CtrlAltDe1337 on January 06, 2011, 01:12:09 am

(click to show/hide)

Quote from: Seawied on January 06, 2011, 12:44:42 am

Take a look at the charge values of the current horses. They're incredibly high.


Sumpter Horse   3530   
hit points 90
body armor 10
requirement 2
horse speed 37
horse maneuver 39
horse charge 9
      
Rouncey   6550   
hit points 95
body armor 16
requirement 3
horse speed 45
horse maneuver 44
horse charge 20
      
Palfrey   7550   
hit points 85
body armor 12
requirement 3
horse speed 46
horse maneuver 45
horse charge 18
   
Steppe Horse   8145   
hit points 85
body armor 14
requirement 3
horse speed 40
horse maneuver 51
horse charge 14
   
Desert Horse   13440   
hit points 85
body armor 10
requirement 3
horse speed 42
horse maneuver 50
horse charge 16
   
Courser   17380   
hit points 100
body armor 18
requirement 4
horse speed 50
horse maneuver 44
horse charge 24
   
Sarranid Horse   20480   
hit points 90
body armor 10
requirement 4
horse speed 43
horse maneuver 54
horse charge 20
   
Destrier   23920   
hit points 120
body armor 27
requirement 4
horse speed 43
horse maneuver 44
horse charge 32
   
War Horse   37160   
hit points 120
body armor 40
requirement 5
horse speed 40
horse maneuver 41
horse charge 36
   
Large Warhorse   39160   
hit points 120
body armor 43
requirement 5
horse speed 39
horse maneuver 41
horse charge 36
   
Cataphract Horse   44666   
hit points 120
body armor 50
requirement 5
horse speed 40
horse maneuver 42
horse charge 38
   
Charger   56460   
hit points 130
body armor 58
requirement 5
horse speed 39
horse maneuver 40
horse charge 40
   
Mamluk Horse   60000   
hit points 140
body armor 62
requirement 6
horse speed 39
horse maneuver 40
horse charge 42
   
Plated Charger   65536   
hit points 150
body armor 70
requirement 6
horse speed 37
horse maneuver 38
horse charge 46

...so you just want to nerf charge damage?  chadz already has it set to something like 2.5 times normal IIRC.  This is hardly "redefining" horses D:

Title: Re: Redefining horses
Post by: Seawied on January 06, 2011, 02:53:33 am

Read the original post again. It goes much beyond that.

Right now we have exaggerated mobility numbers and all the horses lack life (with exception to the super-horses.) My change would not only drop the charge damage, it would reduce the overall speed (or maneuverability!) of a horse but make the horse survivable in most battles.

This allows low level horses to be able to be used in more situations. The trade off is that they won't have super charge damage and either super speed or maneuverability. Armored horses in this change are generally rebalanced to a more reasonable level, offering high health and armor at the cost of speed and some maneuverability.

This system changes a clear hierarchy of horses, to a new setup with many choices, each which would appeal to a different style of play or different style of map.

Title: Re: Redefining horses
Post by: Elusin on January 06, 2011, 03:58:48 am

I like it. One recommended addition:

Proposed Addition: Buff horse life, add horse headshots. Considering given that I'm an archer, I would happily accept 4-5 hits on the lower tiered horses if headshots to the horse actually increased damage significantly more. It wouldn't be spam because they would have to hit a small moving target.

This will make the riders have to be more strategic about their assaults, rather than simply 'w' across the map. In horse rider's favor, it would remove the fear of losing their horses randomly to archer spam.

Title: Re: Redefining horses
Post by: CtrlAltDe1337 on January 06, 2011, 04:34:45 am

Quote from: Elusin on January 06, 2011, 03:58:48 am

I like it. One recommended addition:

Proposed Addition: Buff horse life, add horse headshots. Considering given that I'm an archer, I would happily accept 4-5 hits on the lower tiered horses if headshots to the horse actually increased damage significantly more. It wouldn't be spam because they would have to hit a small moving target.

This will make the riders have to be more strategic about their assaults, rather than simply 'w' across the map. In horse rider's favor, it would remove the fear of losing their horses randomly to archer spam.

Headshots already do double(?) damage.

And @ Seawied, I'll just have to agree to disagree, since I don't think we are getting anywhere.    But let me just say that charge damage is the best thing that happened to M&B cavalry.

Title: Re: Redefining horses
Post by: huscarl_johnson on January 06, 2011, 01:03:35 pm

redefine all M&B horses into glue imo

Title: Re: Redefining horses
Post by: AgentQ on January 06, 2011, 03:47:55 pm

BS...  CAV has been balanced with cost of maintenance. The 24k Destrier is so weak. and 50+K chargers are dies real fast after patch.

Lean to use teamplay and pike.

Title: Re: Redefining horses
Post by: EponiCo on January 06, 2011, 04:05:41 pm

Quote

#1 Horse charge damage would not be a player's primary way of damaging an opponent

Actually I don't mind a charger trampling that much. It's a charger after all. I mind when a charger can hunt me around a tree for 3 minutes at the start of the round when he sees I'm alone and without spear instead of walzing down a group of infantry for maximum effect (and actually risking to be piked and ganged in the process), but hopefully upkeep fixes this.

(click to show/hide)

#2 Arrows would take out most horses in 4-5 hits instead of the 1-3 for light horses and ??? for heavy.

-Pikes, throwing spears/lances, and crossbows would become the main threat to cavalry instead of arrows.

Well, for heavy horses this is actually the case. Arrows didn't hurt them much before the patch, throwing lances did.
So heavy horse, countered by throwing and crossbow, light horse countered by archers (light horses only countered by crossbow and thrower is pretty fail imo, because slow reload or projectile speed vs high speed horse makes hits very hard to impossible).

Title: Re: Redefining horses
Post by: Seawied on January 06, 2011, 11:45:17 pm

Eponico, you bring up a valid point that throwing lances are the primary threat to heavy cavalry. The issue is, this is not the case for all of the lighter horses.

My main two goals with these suggestions are as follows

#1 forcing players to rely on their own skills over their horses trample damage.
-Its important to note that trample damage is amplified with the current patch due to the lack of heavy armor. Last patch, when my infantry character had a tin can suit, trample didn't bother me so much. Now that medium-light armor is becoming the norm, a heavy horse will be able to take out 75% of a player's life easily.

#2 Make the light horses a more appealing choice over heavy horses. With exception of a few well skilled players, light horses could not be used to the same effect as heavy horses, and the learning curve was much steeper.

By slightly improving the armor, and improving the life of the light horses, random arrow spam won't be as much of an issue. By removing the trample damage on light horses, they still are not an ideal choice for being in the thick of battle. This system more closely reflects native warband.