cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Lordras on October 18, 2011, 01:44:13 pm
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For a long time archers have been the fastest, most powerfull and one of the cheapest class around. These things are bugging melee and cav alot. I understand that melee need to have a counter. and melee cant be the most powerfull class in the game. but if an archer pays almost nothing compared to melee and makes the same amount of kills. then something must wrong. i have been an archer for a long long time. and i see alot of flaws in them.
so here are some problems i have with the class and some suggestions how to balance them out:
1. Archers should be long range and longe range only. (we cant all be legolas) they are not supposed to focus on only 1 person but on large groups. i see that this is hard to do on crpg, so i propose something that will make them a bit less close range: Make archers do less damage at a certain close range distance. lets say 10-20 meters. or even just make the arrows bounce of. (note that im talking about balance and not realisme)
2. Pierce is a a abit insane atm. especially when you are using bodkins on a hornbow. but instead of removing the bodkins i propose of having them them ignore a certain percentage of the armor. lets say 50% instead of a full 100%
3. as i was talking about archers that should not be able to aim at 1 person. (this may not be able in crpg) decrease the accuracy abit, Im not a hundred percent sure about this because it wil decrease archer range by far. But to counter it you can make arrowstacks carry twice the amount of arrows so they have more arrows to shoot.
4. u cant possible draw a bow so fast as it is now and still be as accurate as it can be. so i propose of making bows alot longer to draw ,BUT the longer you would draw a bow the more buffs it gives. lets say. more arrow speed, more accurasy and more damage. but when you draw it fast it will do less speed in arrows. less damage. and be accurate.
also maybe a fast draw hotkey? shift perhaps?
i do not wish to remove archers from the game. i just want to make em so they cant be op as they are now
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Just ask developers about new class - Stone wall. And play this class. Pretty invincible, as you want.
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i just need to read first lines to notice its bullshit: archers are cheap
thats not true, as longbow archer you have a high upkeep.
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its says its cheap compared to the upkeep infantry and cavalry must pay
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I hate archers, but this is not a way to 'balance' them. Only thing that needs fixing is pierce damage on low-tier bows.
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For a long time archers have been the fastest, most powerfull and one of the cheapest class around. These things are bugging melee and cav alot. I understand that melee need to have a counter. and melee cant be the most powerfull class in the game. but if an archer pays almost nothing compared to melee and makes the same amount of kills. then something must wrong. i have been an archer for a long long time. and i see alot of flaws in them.
Not cheap. Bodkins have an increased cost and increased break chance. I've actually held pretty steady with gold this whole gen with my hornbow/x2 bodkin archer. I gain gold steadily as a 2H or as a 1h/shielder unless I decide to go full out tin-can for awhile.
1. Archers should be long range and longe range only. (we cant all be legolas) they are not supposed to focus on only 1 person but on large groups. i see that this is hard to do on crpg, so i propose something that will make them a bit less close range: Make archers do less damage at a certain close range distance. lets say 10-20 meters. or even just make the arrows bounce of. (note that im talking about balance and not realisme)
This will just make archers run from melee more. Also it goes against the game engine for projectiles. Why should an arrow at long range do good damage but a point blank shot bounce off? Archers already have a great disadvantage against melee-inclined players when up close, this suggestion makes me think you should practice your archer wiggle.
2. Pierce is a a abit insane atm. especially when you are using bodkins on a hornbow. but instead of removing the bodkins i propose of having them them ignore a certain percentage of the armor. lets say 50% instead of a full 100%
Check this out: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,18247.msg260709.html#msg260709. It might put things in perspective.
3. as i was talking about archers that should not be able to aim at 1 person. (this may not be able in crpg) decrease the accuracy abit, Im not a hundred percent sure about this because it wil decrease archer range by far. But to counter it you can make arrowstacks carry twice the amount of arrows so they have more arrows to shoot.
People won't think about the arrows archers missed, they'll think of all the extra projectiles that will be flying around. This won't solve anything from a 'nerf archery' perspective (ie you) and will just lead to more nerf cries.
4. u cant possible draw a bow so fast as it is now and still be as accurate as it can be. so i propose of making bows alot longer to draw ,BUT the longer you would draw a bow the more buffs it gives. lets say. more arrow speed, more accurasy and more damage. but when you draw it fast it will do less speed in arrows. less damage. and be accurate.
also maybe a fast draw hotkey? shift perhaps?
We already have the slow and fast ranged class; it's called the crossbowman. Archers already do substantially less damage than xbowmen, with the benefits of faster draw movement while reloading etc.
i do not wish to remove archers from the game.
Really? You could've fooled me.
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If archery is goign to change then it needs to be a mechanical change and not just stat changes. Stat changes alone will never alter how archery is used and this is the actual problem rather than them being generally over or under powered.
Here's one way that I think the mechanics could be changed to make things better.
- Holding the left mouse button readys your bow/arrow in a comfortable position (half drawn) and lets you aim for as long as you want.
- Releasing the left mouse button pulls the bow back that final amount and then releases the arrow which means there is a delay before you fire. Not sure on the exact delay yet but somewhere around a second i'd guess.
- The delay should be proportional to the amount of PD you have over your bows difficulty level. 0 extra PD = 100% delay, 1 extra PD = 75% delay, 2 extra PD = 50% delay, 3 extra PD = 25% delay, 4 extra PD = no delay at all. This makes sense as your strength determines how far you can pull a bow string back so that you can comfortably hold it. If you have enough Strength on a light enough bow then you can pull it all the way back and hold it.
- An archer would be able to cancel their shot by right clicking if they are quick enough and have enough wpf. Like melee feinting. Obviously this would not be possible with zero delay, but then the archer wouldn't need it as they will just stop aiming.
- The above changes would mean that PD no longer effects damage. Effectively the dificulty of a bow would be the poundage of that bow. A 150lb bow is a 150lb bow no matter who is using it. Having more strength than you need doesn't make it do more damage it just makes it easier to use. As a result bow damages would need rebalancing to cater for this and I would also duplicate the bows at different difficulties so that people have plenty of choice.
- See below for a table of suggested bows and their stats
Difficulty Bow Damage Missile Speed Speed Rating
1 20lb Short Bow 30 36 75
2 40lb Bow 35 38 72
40lb Nomad Bow 35 38 72
3 60lb Bow 40 40 69
60lb Nomad Bow 45 40 69
4 80lb Bow 50 42 66
80lb Tatar Bow 50 42 66
80lb Yumi 50 42 66
5 100lb Tatar Bow 55 44 63
100lb Yumi 55 44 63
100lb Horn Bow 55 44 63
100lb Long Bow 55 44 63
100lb Rus Bow 55 44 63
6 120lb Horn Bow 60 46 60
120lb Rus Bow 60 46 60
120lb Long Bow 60 46 60
7 140lb Rus Bow 65 48 57
140lb Long Bow 65 48 57
8 160lb Long Bow 70 50 54
You can use words like heavy and light if people don't like the poundages. Looming gives +1, +1, +2 to damage and missile speed. These figues are based on those of the crossbows with the difficulty 8 Longbow being similar to the Heavy Crossbow in terms of damage and missile speed. They should however still be balanced against each other since the Heavy Crossbow is slower but only requires 12 strength to use instead of the 24 strength that the 8 difficulty long bow will need (36 strength if you want to use it without the firing delay). I expect 160lb Long Bows will prove to be very rare but they should be there for those people who are good enough to handle them with the delay (they won't be able to run very fast though :D)
The above changes would result in a much greater risk of team hitting when firing into a melee as the delay would mean you have a much lower chance of hitting someone that is moving erratically whilst fighting. However, a person closing in on an archer wouldn't have any extra advantage as if the animation is done right it should be very hard to see exactly when an archer is going to fire when you are charging them head on. It would limit shot-gunning at the last second though as the archer would have to time it better or use a lighter bow.
As for archers hitting longer range targets that aren't aware of the archer, all it would do is increase the lead you need on them. Good archers will adapt very quickly to this. Crap archers will choose lower difficulty bows so that they can play without the delay, but as a result they will do far less damage.
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Think the biggest problems with archers arent that they are individually powerful, but that there's so friggin many of them. Add a limit on how many bows a team can spawn in with.
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My only complains are the pierce arrows and that it's very easy for them to kite you maybe make bows much more heavier?
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Heyheyheyhey!!!!! Do we have another nice and wonderful thread about nerfing archery, because a poor little guy gets shot sometimes and noone can protect him against incoming arrows? :cry:
Did we ever have more than 3 days in which noone suggested to nerf archery? :rolleyes:
Actually that's all I'm going to say here, as I bet I will start raging again, if I read his post...
poor little melee guy *patpat* :cry:
Ok, I read it....WHAT THE FUCK GUY?? Who the hell are you? Have you ever played archery?? I don't even know your name and usually I have a very good memory when it comes to names.
1-4 is in general just bullshit :evil:
I think I could rage for hours about this crap written here from the OP....go play archer for a few gens again and then start talking about it :rolleyes:
Maybe some admin should mute me for a few days, then I won't read the forum and won't rage everytime another retard is suggesting an archernerf
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My only complains are the pierce arrows and that it's very easy for them to kite you maybe make bows much more heavier?
Your problem is with the pierce arrows, so you want to make the bows heavier ?
I mean... wuut ?
Just make bodkin arrows 0.5 weight heavier.
Personnaly, i'd like to have a slower animation for range user xbow/archers, sheating their ranged weapon (xbow/bow) to take out their spare melee weapon. It's way too fast imo at the moment, considering he sheath his weapon, he can't just put it on his back and grab his side weapon as fast as one sheathes a sword to grab another one.
This will also deal with a better backstab of archers, and less pewpew/melee/pewpew/melee efficiency. And it won't harm at all the "ranged" archers or xbow.
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If you could read properly I stated 2 things not 1, notice the AND after arrows.
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Stupid archer camp maps irritate me more then archers.
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Nerf killing it is far too op, we should be focusing on diplomacy and pacifism. :P
Most of the original suggestions are insane if not outright silly.
If archers are not able to focus on single targets with some accuracy, then we also need to increase the number of archers, essentially having 100s of archers per map creating realistic volley fire. This in turn would necessitate even more insane realism changes and end up being rather droll.