cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Realism Discussion => Topic started by: Blackzilla on October 13, 2011, 03:50:42 am

Title: Katanas
Post by: Blackzilla on October 13, 2011, 03:50:42 am
I'm pretty sure they couldnt block maces, great swords, morning stars,etc.... I always though they were to weak to block.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Tot. on October 13, 2011, 04:21:01 am
Ib4 arrival of the mongolian horde shocked with your thread and crying about their poor weapon having only instant swings and the damage of a greatsword.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Bobthehero on October 13, 2011, 04:56:02 am
Strange, I though it would handle as well as longsword to receive blow, although I did read somewhere it was stiffer and thus more brittle.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Digglez on October 13, 2011, 05:31:25 am
I'm pretty sure they couldnt block maces, great swords, morning stars,etc.... I always though they were to weak to block.

Katanas were made of some of the best and dense steel in history.  I think the average Katana was steel refolded a thousand times (increasing the density & Strength), compared to European swords that were less than 50. 

There is no physical reason, if you had the physical strength, why a katana could not block larger & heavier weapons.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Tot. on October 13, 2011, 05:50:21 am
Katanas were made of some of the best and dense steel in history.  I think the average Katana was steel refolded a thousand times (increasing the density & Strength), compared to European swords that were less than 50. 

Lol, fail. One of the reasons why katanas were such shit weapons compared to european counterparts is because of poor quality of the steel used by japanese weaponsmiths. For example, you could easily damage the blade by just blocking an incoming swing, that's why if the user received proper training he was going to block with the backside of the sword.

Hah, best steel.... Made my night.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: MrShine on October 13, 2011, 06:07:09 am
Katanas should be able to block projectiles and slice through tanks.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Joxer on October 13, 2011, 06:32:26 am
None of the blades we have in game would be able to do the kind of blocking we have in the animation. They would realistically use low angle deflection with any of those. That isn't animated thought so we have to get used to this.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Oberyn on October 13, 2011, 08:53:35 am
Katanas were made of some of the best and dense steel in history.  I think the average Katana was steel refolded a thousand times (increasing the density & Strength), compared to European swords that were less than 50. 

There is no physical reason, if you had the physical strength, why a katana could not block larger & heavier weapons.

Yeah, the reason it had to be folded so much was precisely because of the crappy quality of the steel. It was a meticulous and carefull process, a form of art in certain respects, but that didn't make it the "best steel" in history. Not sure where you got "densest" from either.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Paul on October 13, 2011, 11:21:51 am
As said before the main reason why those folding techniques had to be applied was that Japan has crappy iron ore. I think they had to use some kind of iron sand. The folding was done to make sure that carbon part of the steel was  homogeneous in the blade or else it would have weak points.

I think some European smiths in the early Middle Ages used similar techniques but later on with an increase of ore refining technology and with access to good iron ore it became unneccessary for creating steel with homogeneous carbon content. I think most of the Japanese smiths would have happily switched if they had the option to and European steel was even imported at some point.

Top quality Japanese swords were on par with the best European swords I think but on average I'm pretty sure European steel equipment had the higher quality just because of the difficult, tedious and thus fault-prone process of creating usuable Japanese steel-work.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Bobthehero on October 13, 2011, 02:39:38 pm
Yeah Paul, Scandinavian and the likes were using the same folding techniques in either 500 bc or ac (or is it 700) can't remember.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 13, 2011, 03:16:18 pm
Lol, fail. One of the reasons why katanas were such shit weapons compared to european counterparts is because of poor quality of the steel used by japanese weaponsmiths. For example, you could easily damage the blade by just blocking an incoming swing, that's why if the user received proper training he was going to block with the backside of the sword.

Hah, best steel.... Made my night.

You seem to know nothing about the world my friend  :rolleyes:

Digglez is right
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: chadz on October 13, 2011, 03:27:54 pm
Just posting here to read the replies. Should be fun.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Bobthehero on October 13, 2011, 03:32:36 pm
I doubt there will anything fun, there aren't enough die hard wapaneese that are THAT stupid here.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Spawny on October 13, 2011, 03:35:58 pm
Yeah Paul, Scandinavian and the likes were using the same folding techniques in either 500 bc or ac (or is it 700) can't remember.

It's in here somewhere. Great watch. Laughed too :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLWzH_1eZsc
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Bobthehero on October 13, 2011, 03:39:01 pm
Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwww yeah Spawny, that guy is awesome.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Kalp on October 13, 2011, 03:51:51 pm
I'm pretty sure they couldnt block maces, great swords, morning stars,etc.... I always though they were to weak to block.
I'm pretty sure that no weapon can block great maul, but it's sometimes happen  :D
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Bulzur on October 13, 2011, 05:25:43 pm
Just think of it as not "blocking" but as a "deflecting the blow".
But the animation would probably be harder, just like a chamber, so instead, ou just have this block. As if a club could upblock an overhead flamburger. xD

Deflecting the blow, done by very good swordsmen, enabled to lower the damage done to the blade, thus preventing chips or cut.

Warband's peasants are master at this, since they can effectively block deflect knight's hits with a club. NERF PEASANTS !
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Penitent on October 13, 2011, 05:58:38 pm
Katanas can block a greatsword.  It's all about technique.  The katana is still a solid piece of steel, so you can block quite a lot with it.

A rapier can block a greatsword (this was demonstrated by Western martial artists).  It's all about technique, timing, and angles.  So yeah, a katana (being thicker and held with two hands...unlike the rapier which is very thin and held with one) can block these things.

In the game, you block by just holding your weapon straight out there.  A great sword swinging full force at a perpendicular angle against a katana (or almost any other weapon) would not be a very successful block.  The game engine is not nuanced enough to show a proper block each time, so we'll just have to consider the block animation as a representation of the warrior using a proper technique to block the weapon regardless of the angle or strength of the attack.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Christo on October 13, 2011, 06:31:25 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLXQttLz62g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLXQttLz62g)

 :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 14, 2011, 01:39:00 am
In the game, you block by just holding your weapon straight out there.  A great sword swinging full force at a perpendicular angle against a katana (or almost any other weapon) would not be a very successful block.  The game engine is not nuanced enough to show a proper block each time, so we'll just have to consider the block animation as a representation of the warrior using a proper technique to block the weapon regardless of the angle or strength of the attack.

Most retarded blocks are 1h :D

You would never have the strength to hold such a block up and everytime your own weapon would hit your face while you try to block :D
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Jarlek on October 14, 2011, 02:17:36 am
Most retarded blocks are 1h :D

You would never have the strength to hold such a block up and everytime your own weapon would hit your face while you try to block :D
Have you SEEN the overhead block of 2h? That thing looks so ridiculous. Agree that the 1h is silly too. The only one that actually looks capable of blocking an overhead attack is the polearm one.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: old_hat on October 14, 2011, 02:37:18 am
Back to the original topic, katanas are brittle and strong along the blade and softer and more flexible in the back. The blade was tempered longer, and this gave the blade its curved shape and also the great cutting power the blade has. Which is why samurai would be trained to block with the back and/or the side, and attack with the edge. None of this "blocking a blade with a blade" crap.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Blackzilla on October 14, 2011, 04:10:11 am
Just posting here to read the replies. Should be fun.
im glad i posted something that is good enough for you too read.   :D (or take notice in)
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 14, 2011, 06:10:52 pm
Back to offtopic  :mrgreen:

Have you SEEN the overhead block of 2h? That thing looks so ridiculous. Agree that the 1h is silly too. The only one that actually looks capable of blocking an overhead attack is the polearm one.

Sure, but with two hands you might have a chance to block such thing, as you have more armpower to stand against it, but onehand is just  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Diomedes on October 14, 2011, 08:38:23 pm
Katanas should be able to block projectiles and slice through sharks.

Fix'd it for you.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: vinnytk on October 14, 2011, 08:39:47 pm
a wasabi blade could cut through anything

i know this because i watch animes
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on October 14, 2011, 10:37:10 pm
Back to the original topic. Most swords rarely attempt to block at all because it damages the blade. You usually attempt to parry with the flat of the blade. Blocking is a sort of last resort.

And with the animations in this game, no sword would be able to block anything with those grips. But yes, generally it's considered that the defense capabilies are worse with a katana than a longsword due to the shape of the blade and the smaller protection for the hands.

But I think this is fairly well simulated by the fact that katanas get stunned a whole lot easier.

And uh.... Katanas should slice through huscarls. That's why the vikings did not conquer japan. amidoingitright?
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 15, 2011, 12:58:26 am

And uh.... Katanas should slice through huscarls. That's why the vikings did not conquer japan. amidoingitright?

This has to be moved to the "katanas should cut through walls" - thread or whatever it was called^^
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Blackzilla on October 15, 2011, 06:50:47 am
I think we should take out the katana from stabbing or whatever its called.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Siiem on October 15, 2011, 06:46:06 pm
Katanas should be able to cut through inferior european weapons, because in reality katanas are made from adamantium!
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Aldric on November 05, 2011, 01:42:59 am
That’s it. I’m sick of all this “Useless spamitana” bullshit that’s going on in the CRPG system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I’m talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that’s about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.
Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.
Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I’m pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.
Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That’s right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.
So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the CRPG system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:
No hand ( Katana fly in the air with the mind telekinesis ) 250 Damage, 250 speed,  crush-through, effective against shield ( cause if it's can cut solid platinum  it's can cut through shield ) as well as dick size +10 for the holder.
When it's goes masterwork, it's should become a jedi light saber and the holder get the use of the Force from both side. So he can create force space-hole against Cruisers and use force thunders on his foes.
Mind rape will force anyone to suck his +10 dick too.


Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don’t you think?
tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in CRPG, see my new stats suggestion

Ps : Sorry. Couldn't resist.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: POOPHAMMER on November 05, 2011, 01:47:35 am
Hi.

Its signed.

I can only approved,

POOPHAMMER
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Weren on November 05, 2011, 01:59:37 am
Oh wow.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on November 05, 2011, 02:03:26 am
Hi.

Its signed.

I can only approve,

My grandpa Bob told me once, when he was fighting on Guadalcanal , a japanese soldier came running towards him and when my grand pa Bob tried to fire at him, the jap cut off the end of his thompson with his sword!!!!!! luckily, his friend Bill saved his life

true story!!!!!!!!!!!!!

.... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: polkafranzi on November 05, 2011, 02:03:32 am
yeah buff katana.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Christo on November 05, 2011, 03:59:57 am
Fools, thinking that suits would give them any armour rating.
 :mrgreen:

Also, Aldric made me lol, for first building the post up like a "katana-plonker", almost making me to edit my post to correct him.

Nice job.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on November 05, 2011, 11:32:29 am
I love this new forum :D
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Herkkutatti on November 05, 2011, 11:37:48 am
"Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to amillion times to produce the finest blades known to mankind."
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Osiris on November 05, 2011, 11:56:55 am
Quote
I’m pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

 This guy on another forum said it best :D (and yes it looks like you posted there too or copied it^^)

http://www.facepunch.com/threads/839748

begone weeaboo troll

PS Trolls work better when it at least looks serious ^^




Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Skysong on November 05, 2011, 12:13:12 pm
Katana Thrower (called Katunna in japan) was the greastest weapon of Naval battles. When mongols tried to invade japan,  most of their ships were destroyed by Katunnas. Those who made it to land were slashed by only single katana. And their head were put on Takanas. (Special pikes that were folded for 200 years)
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on November 05, 2011, 12:38:23 pm
PS Trolls work better when it at least looks serious ^^

Alright  :twisted:
The point is that no swords cut through plate. That's why europeans developed swords better suited for thrusting. The design of the katana is for cutting.

Quote from: Wikipedia
This design change is largely attributed to the use of plate armour as an effective defense, more or less nullifying the ability of a sword cut to break through the armour system. Instead of cutting, long swords were then used more to thrust against opponents in plate armour, requiring a more acute point and a more rigid blade.

Quote from: ARMA
The truth of the matter is that plate armour simply is not effectively cut with a sword's edge, in spite of what you will see portrayed in movies and at many Renn fairs. When it comes to armoured longsword combat, the thrust is paramount.

Quote from: ARMA
The katana, with its living tradition of practice, is well known for demonstrating its cutting power. Its single, hardened, wedge-like edge has long been shown to be capable of extraordinary sharpness. The longsword, which has not been practiced or studied for centuries, has not acquired a similar reputation. Indeed, its utility and cutting ability has suffered from considerable disregard by fencing historians and arms curators (despite historical accounts documenting its formidable edge blows having been corroborated by modern experiment). It is certain that both weapons successfully faced opponents wearing soft and hard armors without great difficulty. Nonetheless, a curved blade is mechanically superior to a straight one at delivering edge blows to produce injury. And due to its hardness, the single curving edge of the katana is very good at penetrating even hard materials with straight-on strikes.
He doesn't mean that it can cut through plate.

What ARMA is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_for_Renaissance_Martial_Arts

Sources:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/armoredlongsword.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword
http://www.thearma.org/essays/longsword-and-katana.html

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: B3RS3RK on November 05, 2011, 01:08:39 pm
Katana Thrower (called Katunna in japan) was the greastest weapon of Naval battles. When mongols tried to invade japan,  most of their ships were destroyed by Katunnas. Those who made it to land were slashed by only single katana. And their head were put on Takanas. (Special pikes that were folded for 200 years)

+1 Epic :D

Dont forget that every solder in the japanese army today owns a katana to defend against bullets.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Zisa on November 05, 2011, 06:13:51 pm
yeah buff katana.

(click to show/hide)
Oh look - me pre-patch!
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Casimir on November 05, 2011, 11:28:43 pm
this troll isnt even amusing
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: MrShine on November 06, 2011, 12:15:12 am
That’s it. I’m sick of all this “Useless spamitana” bullshit that’s going on in the CRPG system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I’m talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that’s about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.
Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.
Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I’m pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.
Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That’s right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.
So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the CRPG system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:
No hand ( Katana fly in the air with the mind telekinesis ) 250 Damage, 250 speed,  crush-through, effective against shield ( cause if it's can cut solid platinum  it's can cut through shield ) as well as dick size +10 for the holder.
When it's goes masterwork, it's should become a jedi light saber and the holder get the use of the Force from both side. So he can create force space-hole against Cruisers and use force thunders on his foes.
Mind rape will force anyone to suck his +10 dick too.


Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don’t you think?
tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in CRPG, see my new stats suggestion

Ps : Sorry. Couldn't resist.
I love this new forum :D
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Laufknoten on November 06, 2011, 01:04:56 am
No hand ( Katana fly in the air with the mind telekinesis ) 250 Damage, 250 speed,  crush-through, effective against shield ( cause if it's can cut solid platinum  it's can cut through shield ) as well as dick size +10 for the holder.
Change "dick size +10" to "dick size -10" and I could happily live with those changes.  :mrgreen:

Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Bobthehero on November 06, 2011, 01:29:24 am
That’s it. I’m sick of all this “Useless spamitana” bullshit that’s going on in the CRPG system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I’m talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that’s about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.
Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.
Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I’m pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.
Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That’s right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.
So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the CRPG system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:
No hand ( Katana fly in the air with the mind telekinesis ) 250 Damage, 250 speed,  crush-through, effective against shield ( cause if it's can cut solid platinum  it's can cut through shield ) as well as dick size +10 for the holder.
When it's goes masterwork, it's should become a jedi light saber and the holder get the use of the Force from both side. So he can create force space-hole against Cruisers and use force thunders on his foes.
Mind rape will force anyone to suck his +10 dick too.


Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don’t you think?
tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in CRPG, see my new stats suggestion

Ps : Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Nice copypasta, love how everyone thinks you're a troll :D
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Dammit on November 11, 2011, 06:48:53 pm
Japanese werent the first to practice folding steel...that was the celts....

A katana is made of low quality steel so therefore they decided to fold it and will therefore have a hard time with most medieval europe's weapons. That shit you see in the movies or animes of a katana cutting through everything, would never really happen. Katanas were expected to face off against other katanas.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Problem, weeaboos?
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Thomek on November 23, 2011, 09:35:30 pm
That video/gif is retarded. The other sword rests on a table, and therefore transfer the energy to the table in stead of bending. You could switch the swords and the result would be the euro sword bending.

Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 24, 2011, 12:34:26 am
EDIT: Nevermind...  :rolleyes: :lol:
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Blackzilla on November 24, 2011, 02:51:08 am
This.

Is wrong?
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Christo on November 24, 2011, 04:05:33 am
SPAAAMTAAA!

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Bobthehero on November 24, 2011, 03:02:10 pm
That video/gif is retarded. The other sword rests on a table, and therefore transfer the energy to the table in stead of bending. You could switch the swords and the result would be the euro sword bending.

Actually they do the test with a Euro sword, the sword resting on the table breaks in two.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Skysong on November 24, 2011, 03:20:55 pm
(click to show/hide)

Sadly weabos can't accept the truth since they are brainwashed by animes.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Bobthehero on November 24, 2011, 08:39:01 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hy_A9vjp_s

Here is the whole video related to the gif.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on November 24, 2011, 09:02:37 pm
Quote from: ARMA
Durability - Durability in a fighting sword refers to its general tenacity and its resilience and in delivering blows and receiving impacts over time without breaking or becoming bent. Simply put, a blade that bends too easily will deform too often and build up strains that will lead to its eventual failure (if not hopelessly distort it first). A blade that does not deform would stand up to long term use better, provided its strength is not exceeded. The more resistant to brittle catastrophic failure a sword blade is, however, the more malleable it becomes - meaning the easier a bend will set in. In the most basic terms, a good cutting and thrusting sword blade needs to be able to spring somewhat or else it will snap too easily under stress. To achieve such characteristics indefinitely requires a heat-treatment and cross-section that permits this - one that, if overloaded, will deform slightly rather suffer a sudden total failure. This matter is separate from edge hardness. Toughness is necessary for maintaining a hard edge that can cut well, but a certain degree of "springiness" permits it to resist sudden fractures.

A blade needs strength to resist deformation but toughness to withstand cracking and chipping. A more ductile and pliable blade would have little strength (as it would deform too easily). But, an overly hard blade, while having great strength to resists deformation, would also have no "give." Rather than bend or stretch under stress it would fracture to the point of snapping. An ideal cutting and thrusting sword blade is therefore between these two extremes. Hardness and softness in a blade is a matter of heat-treating, such that it affects it to either bend very quickly under force or else over-flex until it breaks without bending at all. A blade's stiffness, by contrast is solely a matter of its cross-section and its thickness, not its tempering. Together, these factors will achieve a particular sword's intended qualities. Generally, the sword which was least "heat treated" (hardened) would be tougher, but not necessarily the most resistant to fatigue strain. But, hardness in a blade or edge will undergo stress, and stressed material is more susceptible to fracture.

A springier blade, such as on the longsword, is able to endure fatigue and abuse over longer periods. However, a more robust blade able to resist breaking will tolerate greater sudden stress as in cutting powerfully at more resistant materials, which the katana achieves. Katanas tended to be strong essentially because their thick blades and narrow edges were of laminated structures with a differential heat treatment. Katanas typically have a very good combination of strengths due to tensile versus compressive forces from the edge material actually being longer than the spine (forcing its natural curvature). But such hardness is possible on two-edge straight blades as well. The katana will cut soft objects very well with little fatigue/strength issues, but over time it will not handle massive impacts or lateral forces as due to the same heat treatment that gives it such a strong edge (but requires a softer back). Additionally, the fact is, the sharper and the harder an edge, the easier it chips and cracks from use (i.e., suffers brittle failures). A softer edge, by contrast, will fold and dull from use (ductile failures). The katana required more rigidity for its hard-cutting design, while for its utility the longsword was more of a spring. The katana's edge leaned towards more brittleness while its spine was more prone to bending. In both weapons, cross sectional shape compensated for weaknesses while capitalizing on strengths.

Flexibility, or the ability for a blade to deform but return true, though regularly exaggerated in modern times, was actually of very little concern for swords intended for serious combat, and does not enter into the criteria here. Surprisingly, metal fatigue caused by shock and vibrations were not great concerns on swords. While the durability factor is one that should be the easiest to determine categorically by empirical measurement, it is one that has the least information on which to draw firm conclusions. No practical tests have ever been done to record the overall comparative attributes (impact forces and hardnesses) of the different respective blades from either culture. Making generalized estimates is thus difficult. Modern replica swords are typically poor substitutes for the real historical specimens and anecdotal accounts of blade resilience or flexibility are not enough to go on.

Of all the categories to rate, durability is the one, which, arguably, there is the least understanding of among modern sword enthusiasts. We can dismiss the hype that occurs with regularity in cartoons and videogames featuring the katana as a virtual lightsaber cutting through cannons and tanks. Similarly, we can dismiss the ignorant assumptions of Victorian-era-inspired writers of the 20th century who viewed Medieval European swords through the strained prism of isolated experience with flimsy sporting swords.

No sword is indestructible. All are produced as perishable tools with a certain expected working lifetime. There is also evidence both swords styles were made in versions intended for armored combat and versions intended for unarmored combat. This further complicates efforts to discern any overall sturdiness in their design. Which blade historically could possibly be called the more durable in combat is then an exceptionally complex issue to address and perhaps unanswerable.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Spawny on November 24, 2011, 09:08:44 pm
Blah

There you go. Solid proof guns are superior to swords.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on November 24, 2011, 09:19:18 pm
I agree.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Bobthehero on November 24, 2011, 09:35:33 pm
But I swear to god if one idiot start to pull of the ''sword need sharpening''...

Guns need to be taken care of as well!.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Laufknoten on November 24, 2011, 11:20:07 pm
We come to the conclusion that the Katana is a sharp weapon and good to cleave unarmored opponents with. And that it's actually inferior to good euro swords.
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Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on November 24, 2011, 11:25:26 pm
Quote
PS Trolls work better when it at least looks serious ^^

Alright  :twisted:
The point is that no swords cut through plate. That's why europeans developed swords better suited for thrusting. The design of the katana is for cutting.

Quote from: Wikipedia
This design change is largely attributed to the use of plate armour as an effective defense, more or less nullifying the ability of a sword cut to break through the armour system. Instead of cutting, long swords were then used more to thrust against opponents in plate armour, requiring a more acute point and a more rigid blade.

Quote from: ARMA
The truth of the matter is that plate armour simply is not effectively cut with a sword's edge, in spite of what you will see portrayed in movies and at many Renn fairs. When it comes to armoured longsword combat, the thrust is paramount.

Quote from: ARMA
The katana, with its living tradition of practice, is well known for demonstrating its cutting power. Its single, hardened, wedge-like edge has long been shown to be capable of extraordinary sharpness. The longsword, which has not been practiced or studied for centuries, has not acquired a similar reputation. Indeed, its utility and cutting ability has suffered from considerable disregard by fencing historians and arms curators (despite historical accounts documenting its formidable edge blows having been corroborated by modern experiment). It is certain that both weapons successfully faced opponents wearing soft and hard armors without great difficulty. Nonetheless, a curved blade is mechanically superior to a straight one at delivering edge blows to produce injury. And due to its hardness, the single curving edge of the katana is very good at penetrating even hard materials with straight-on strikes.
He doesn't mean that it can cut through plate.

What ARMA is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_for_Renaissance_Martial_Arts

Sources:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/armoredlongsword.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword
http://www.thearma.org/essays/longsword-and-katana.html

(click to show/hide)


Now I'm just getting lazy :P
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Konrax on December 04, 2011, 05:11:23 pm
Katanas are made of two types of steel.

Soft steel bar which is used as the core and back part of the sword, with the hard steel wrapped around the front and folded repeatedly to get an exceptional cutting edge.

Its also what gives the blade its unique curve from the forging process because they two types of steel expand and contract at different amounts.

Katanas aren't brittle swords at all, mind you that blocking any exceptionally heavy weapon head on like in MB most weapons would not survive.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on December 04, 2011, 06:36:12 pm
Gief katanas no block!  :mrgreen: (You can still chamber)
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Tears of Destiny on December 04, 2011, 06:55:13 pm
I think we use chadztanium and not steel after all, gunpowder does not exist in this Calradia...
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Christo on December 04, 2011, 06:57:06 pm
I think we use chadztanium and not steel after all, gunpowder does not exist in this Calradia...

What about Steel Pick? o.O

chadztanium/chadzium Pick sounds epic.  :wink:
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 04, 2011, 08:00:25 pm
Gief katanas no block!  :mrgreen: (You can still chamber)

Yeah, do this, but make them 60cut and 102 speed
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Inkompetent on December 14, 2011, 09:50:52 am
Katanas aren't brittle swords at all, mind you that blocking any exceptionally heavy weapon head on like in MB most weapons would not survive.
Well, a lot of weapons are made of different types of steel. The fact the katana has a softer core and a harder edge doesn't make it much less brittle though. The sword won't shatter (as some believe it would), but such a hardened edge is very vulnerable to damage. Much more so than more flexible steel.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Arkonor on January 01, 2012, 06:12:10 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkoj932YFo&feature=related

Here you can see how the Katana and Longsword worked vs leather and plated armors.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on January 01, 2012, 06:28:42 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkoj932YFo&feature=related

Here you can see how the Katana and Longsword worked vs leather and plated armors.

Mind if I dont base my decision on a video hosted by a red neck :P?

There was no cutting to the large european swords when attacking plate, it was all about the immense weight and momentum of the sword crushing through the armour, breaking bones. Katanas are not capable of such crushing, they were designed for cutting through the light armours the Japanese used, against the plate a standard faithfully recreated katana would not break through heavy armour :/
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: _Sebastian_ on January 01, 2012, 08:50:27 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkoj932YFo&feature=related

Here you can see how the Katana and Longsword worked vs leather and plated armors.

What a crapy test.
From 4:20min till the end the blade of the longsword was completly blunt.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Tigero on January 02, 2012, 12:47:34 pm
All good swords are made out of exactly same material, perfectly tempered high-carbon steel. I don't know where this katana hysteria comes from, its just a fking sword with a slightest curve with no cross-guard, no pommel and no single-point tip for stabbing... very bad sword actually.

A truly magical sword is the 1796 cavarly sabre, even tho it's one-handed, one can cut with it much more efficiently than with katana. It probably has the best curve ever, starting mainly from the middle of the sword, and ending close to the tip, making a perfect horseback stabbing weapon because it doesn't rip the sword out of the stabber's hand.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Tigero on January 02, 2012, 12:50:24 pm
What a crapy test.
From 4:20min till the end the blade of the longsword was completly blunt.
Yes and in the ice test, if you look closely, the katana has a pre-made groove and longsword not. And the cutting test to the mannequin was unfair, longsword had to cut through 15cm wide area and katana only had to 'slice' the leather. (try cutting through paper with knife by just pressing it against the flat side of it and then by cutting it from the edge)
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Thomek on January 02, 2012, 01:16:35 pm
Curved Edge.

The katana hits with all its force in a fraction of the area that the longsword does. In addition, "Cut" effects become much more likely.

Katana is also thicker and stiffer than the longsword.. Longsword is longer though.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Inkompetent on January 02, 2012, 01:45:51 pm
Well, R. Lee Ermey's videos are for enterntainment first, and historical accuracy second. He's already decided in advance what weapon is supposed to win, and the videos are then rigged to make that happen.

Every single test was done in favour of the katana (and it seemed like the ice block had a bigger groove than during the longsword-test).

They cut against the soft leather (that no one would wear as armour anyway, unless combined with other armour, since the leather wasn't thick, multi-layered, studded, or hardened) where the longsword would be used to thrust, or use a point-slash (i.e. towards the tip of the sword).

And thrusting *through* the steel is an obvious win for the katana since the sword is more rigid and won't bend/flex at impact like the longsword will. Not to mention the longer blade on the longsword makes it harder to make a thrust against solid armour stable.

The longsword would be used to thrust at the throat, armpits, and other unarmoured or weakly protected spots, since trying to get through plate is only done with a warpick/pickaxe, and other armour piercing weapons.

Summed up, it's a silly test that proves nothing at all, other than that the katana is good at cutting styrofoam.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Ujin on January 02, 2012, 02:30:31 pm
Mind if I dont base my decision on a video hosted by a red neck :P?

There was no cutting to the large european swords when attacking plate, it was all about the immense weight and momentum of the sword crushing through the armour, breaking bones. Katanas are not capable of such crushing, they were designed for cutting through the light armours the Japanese used, against the plate a standard faithfully recreated katana would not break through heavy armour :/
What are those light armors you speak of ? Peasants ? Well european light infantry also wore "light armors" that could've been cut through by both katanas and european swords. If you're talking decently equipped samurais, apart from the gaps (which european armors also had), i sincerely doubt a katana (or another sword) could easily cut through  it.
They used heavier weaponry on the battlefield, katana was more of a side weapon. You know that the japanese samurai, very much like european knights, had grappling techniques and  a similar coupe de grace dagger for the finishing blow, just like their european colleagues ?
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on January 02, 2012, 02:46:29 pm
What are those light armors you speak of ? Peasants ? Well european light infantry also wore "light armors" that could've been cut through by both katanas and european swords. If you're talking decently equipped samurais, apart from the gaps (which european armors also had), i sincerely doubt a katana (or another sword) could easily cut through  it.
They used heavier weaponry on the battlefield, katana was more of a side weapon. You know that the japanese samurai, very much like european knights, had grappling techniques and  a similar coupe de grace dagger for the finishing blow, just like their european colleagues ?

Mostly Peasants but additionally Japanese never used armour nearly as heavy as european plate, so yes maybe some high end japanese samurai armour could withstand the cuts but I think its safe to assume that Japan did not have nearly as many heavily armoured soldiers as the europeans. I believe while europeans were developing steel plate the japanese samurais were using iron and leather scales. No where near as cut resistant as plate.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Inkompetent on January 02, 2012, 02:50:55 pm
To further Ujin's point katanas weren't designed to cut through armour. Period. They are designed to VERY effectively cut unarmoured flesh, and at that they excel.

The main battlefield weapon for the japanese weren't swords at all. They were (only counting melee weapons, since the bow was the prefered weapon), yaris and naginatas (straight- and curved-bladed polearms, respectively) since they beat the swords for range, and for effect against armour.

Then as Ujin said they had coup-de-grace daggers that either were used to attack gaps in the armour, or to simply hammer point-first straight through the armour.

Swords were carried on the battlefield as ceremonial details, and as a last resort if your spear broke (which considering the durability of yaris wasn't likely to happen).

Yes, you could kill ashigaru and militia with sword since they used little to no armour, but since they had spears designed to penetrate your armour you'd prefer having a spear yourself to match their range.


Samurai armour might not be as heavy as metal plate armour, but it is very resilient to cuts, and cutting is the only thing a katana can do decently.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Thomek on January 02, 2012, 09:11:45 pm
I don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand the inherent advantages of the curved blade. Look at the video! :)

Of course, katanas, as Ujin points out were not meant to be used in warfare, but more as a personal sidearm. They are short, stiff, solid swords excellent for cutting and thrusting into unarmored foes. That doesn't mean it is also not an adequate formula for punching through armor..

Compared to a longsword the katana sacrifices length per weight and 2 sides. The longsword sacrifices stiffness and curvature.

Swordmakers in Europe had other ideals. They tried to get the weight down and extend the length. They had better materials so they could do it too. They were often facing plate which you could forget about cutting with almost anything.. I reckon they used the longsword at the peasants and heavier, blunter polethings when fighting plate.

And the japanese used mail. Often under their other armor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_(armour)#Mail_armour_.28kusari.29_in_Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_(armour)#Mail_armour_.28kusari.29_in_Japan)
In the article, more varieties than the rest of the world together.

Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 02, 2012, 11:43:48 pm
Quote
PS Trolls work better when it at least looks serious ^^

Alright  :twisted:
The point is that no swords cut through plate. That's why europeans developed swords better suited for thrusting. The design of the katana is for cutting.

Quote from: Wikipedia
This design change is largely attributed to the use of plate armour as an effective defense, more or less nullifying the ability of a sword cut to break through the armour system. Instead of cutting, long swords were then used more to thrust against opponents in plate armour, requiring a more acute point and a more rigid blade.

Quote from: ARMA
The truth of the matter is that plate armour simply is not effectively cut with a sword's edge, in spite of what you will see portrayed in movies and at many Renn fairs. When it comes to armoured longsword combat, the thrust is paramount.

Quote from: ARMA
The katana, with its living tradition of practice, is well known for demonstrating its cutting power. Its single, hardened, wedge-like edge has long been shown to be capable of extraordinary sharpness. The longsword, which has not been practiced or studied for centuries, has not acquired a similar reputation. Indeed, its utility and cutting ability has suffered from considerable disregard by fencing historians and arms curators (despite historical accounts documenting its formidable edge blows having been corroborated by modern experiment). It is certain that both weapons successfully faced opponents wearing soft and hard armors without great difficulty. Nonetheless, a curved blade is mechanically superior to a straight one at delivering edge blows to produce injury. And due to its hardness, the single curving edge of the katana is very good at penetrating even hard materials with straight-on strikes.
He doesn't mean that it can cut through plate.

What ARMA is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_for_Renaissance_Martial_Arts

Sources:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/armoredlongsword.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword
http://www.thearma.org/essays/longsword-and-katana.html

(click to show/hide)

I'm still lazy.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: polkafranzi on January 03, 2012, 12:13:24 am
(click to show/hide)

I'm still weaboo.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Jacko on January 03, 2012, 11:09:13 am
We all know the Katana is the best sword in history, it can cut through cars for god sake. This thread is pointless.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Siiem on January 03, 2012, 11:47:28 am
We all know the Katana is the best sword in history, it can cut through cars for god sake. This thread is pointless.

Must have been a Toyota or a Mitsubishi...
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Fandrall on January 03, 2012, 10:11:03 pm
This guy shows the basics of parry technique with katana. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNj5HiCPx1I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNj5HiCPx1I) If you cba to see the entire thing he shows how to parry with a katana from 0:14:00.

For those of you who like Science, History and Jackass this is the perfect combination. He is infact quite good at handling melee and throwing weapons.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: zagibu on January 09, 2012, 01:51:26 am
Katana is largely misunderstood. Samurai were horsemen, and Katana was the tool to put an injured horse out of its misery by cutting the head off in one clean swipe. It could also be used for bluffs, when a Samurai had lost his bow, he would pretend the curved Katana was his bow, and make swishing sounds to imitate flying arrows. This was very important, because a bowless Samurai was considered dishonourable, and would have been killed by his own allies. Lastly, many Katanas arranged in a circle on the floor could delimit the dancefloor for the after-battle party. They had a fun drinking game where every Samurai who mistakenly left the circle during the dance had to down 3 cups of sake, and the first Samurai to puke had to pay for the whole party.

I know all this from my daughter, who was a Samurai for a long time, before she was abducted by aliens.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Christo on January 09, 2012, 04:35:04 am
Seems legit.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Siiem on January 09, 2012, 05:35:08 am
Seems legit.

The story involved aliens, so it can never be disproved.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Tennenoth on January 09, 2012, 08:21:13 am
I'll put it this way, I don't want to be hit with a sword no matter what it is.

In cRPG, I run away so most people don't hit me anway so there is no reason I should try and block. Not that I use a katana because i'm a European weaponry fanboy but I do pick up a Masterwork Katana if I have run out of arrows and I need something a little faster than my Langes.

I'm particularly fond of the whole "the power and skill/technique of the user has great effect on the effectiveness of each weapon" and that pretty much carries across into cRPG, faster sword throws people off if they're used to something slower, or vice versa (more often than not, backwards is more difficult for me).

Sadly, as said before, the blocking in cRPG isn't realistic, it's for the game mechanic that we all have a love/hate relationship with.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Osiris on January 09, 2012, 03:12:05 pm
pointless thread :D weeaboos will always shout out that the katana is the best most uberest weapon in history and that samurai were the coolest and most hardcore warriors ever to live. The Yumi is clearly superior to any other bow in history and they are the only warriors with honour.

you cant argue with a weeaboo so why try :P
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Ujin on January 10, 2012, 01:47:25 pm
pointless thread :D weeaboos will always shout out that the katana is the best most uberest weapon in history and that samurai were the coolest and most hardcore warriors ever to live. The Yumi is clearly superior to any other bow in history and they are the only warriors with honour.

you cant argue with a weeaboo so why try :P
Not really, if you actually managed to read the posts in this topic, you'll find out that some people who know a thing or two about this have more or less objective opinions. Your post , however , is so unnecessary and cliche that it hurts my eyes. What are you , a lonely teenager who's trying to hang out with all the cool kids ? "Weeabooooos, boogity boogity boo, haha!" .
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Osiris on January 10, 2012, 02:13:00 pm
i doubt many "cool kids" run around shouting weeaboo :D
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: zagibu on January 11, 2012, 12:58:21 am
It is hard to make war with a small penis. Give the samurais some respect!
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: grenadierman on January 11, 2012, 10:57:26 am
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Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Gomer on January 11, 2012, 10:59:44 am
It is hard to make war with a small penis. Give the samurais some respect!
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Christo on January 11, 2012, 02:43:27 pm
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Seems legit.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 14, 2012, 04:24:47 am
My final evidence that katanas can cut through tincans:

http://www.bofunk.com/video/1218/defenders_of_the_keep.html
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Thomek on January 14, 2012, 06:35:49 pm
lulz :)  :D
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: polkafranzi on January 14, 2012, 10:08:25 pm
weaboo porn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZuQpRcAvf8

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: zagibu on January 15, 2012, 12:10:33 pm
At the end, she strikes with the back side. This happens when you give weapons to women.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Son Of Odin on August 02, 2012, 12:53:33 am
Can't believe how many of these threads are out here.
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Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Casimir on August 02, 2012, 12:56:54 am
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Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: PaulD on August 20, 2012, 12:01:09 am
Here is a poem I have written for you today about Katanas.

Katanas are fast, Katanas are strong, if you disagree, I'll cut off your dong.
Kanatas are sharp, they can cut through walls, if you disagree I'll rip off your balls.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on August 20, 2012, 12:17:09 am
(click to show/hide)

I don't only think I'm bad, I know I'm bad!

Wait wat
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: PaulD on August 20, 2012, 12:21:37 am
think they are badass I meant.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: TehSoviet on August 22, 2012, 07:37:21 pm
Katanas were made of some of the best and dense steel in history.  I think the average Katana was steel refolded a thousand times (increasing the density & Strength), compared to European swords that were less than 50. 

There is no physical reason, if you had the physical strength, why a katana could not block larger & heavier weapons.

Folding a weapon so many times was entirely impractical and primitive. The same methods of sword smithing were used by early saxons/vikings in the pre 800 AD era. Dense =/= Good/able to block. No matter how dense it is, it can't stop a mace or a morningstar, it would just shard and break instead of being bent out of shape, like a longsword.


And I'm a big fat tool because this is page seven and that has been quoted a dozen times.
Title: Re: Katanas
Post by: PaulD on August 22, 2012, 08:20:59 pm
This thread gets a bit more traffic, so I feel the need to repost the "katanas are awesome" works cited here.


aka: shitty anime theater.